is it appropriate to tell a program...

[chauffeur]

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is it appropriate to tell a program (prelim or trans)... that you are going to "rank them first" or should i say "highly" or "very interested". do prelim/trans programs even care about what you write in a letter or is it all stats. i figure if it's just stats, then i'll just sit back. however, i don't want to miss out on an opportunity. thanks.

 

[yaah]

If you know you are going to rank them #1 then frankly there is no reason not to tell them you are going to. It isn't against any rules to tell a program unsolicited that they are your primary choice. Worst case scenario - they note it and do nothing to their rank list. Best case scenario they see this as an enthusiastic applicant and move you up, perhaps to make their own ranking stats look better.

Don't tell a program that you aren't ranking #1 that they are your #1 though. That is poor form and may come back and bite you later on.

It's not like dating where you tell someone you like them and they get scared off. Programs like residents who want to come there.

 

[chauffeur]

If you know you are going to rank them #1 then frankly there is no reason not to tell them you are going to. It isn't against any rules to tell a program unsolicited that they are your primary choice. Worst case scenario - they note it and do nothing to their rank list. Best case scenario they see this as an enthusiastic applicant and move you up, perhaps to make their own ranking stats look better.

Don't tell a program that you aren't ranking #1 that they are your #1 though. That is poor form and may come back and bite you later on.

It's not like dating where you tell someone you like them and they get scared off. Programs like residents who want to come there.

thanks. i was only going to tell my #1 choice that i am going to rank them first. however, i thought they might think that i tell everyone this... and therfore i would be better off telling them that i'll rank them highly b/c essentially, i can tell several people that i'm ranking them highly and therefore they would not detect any dishonesty.

 

[DigableCat]

Don't tell a program that you aren't ranking #1 that they are your #1 though. That is poor form and may come back and bite you later on.

It's amazing however that this only works against us. I knew many many many people who were falsely told that they would match at the program of their choice, only on match day to have a look of confusion when they realized that it wasn't the case.


What did the program do? They put up they hands and shrugged their shoulders, "OOPS!" *sheepish grin*

 

[waterski232002]

Did any of you write letters to multiple programs stating your intent. I.E. Tell your #1 program that they are your #1, and then send letters to your next 3-4 saying that you are ranking them highly... What do you guys think about this approach?

 

[chauffeur]

i have heard the same thing. but my point is that if a program tells me "let us know if you really want to come here" and they are my first choice, then i will write them and tell them i'm ranking them first.
however, i would not be surprised if i didn't match there b/c most programs, for whatever reason, want to be able to state that they filled their 10 spots with their first 13 candidates.... they can ensure this by telling people like me that they really want me, when in fact they tell many people that.

 

[Amy]

Don't tell a program that you aren't ranking #1 that they are your #1 though. That is poor form and may come back and bite you later on.

How will this "come back and bite you?" I did tell one program that I will likely rank them number one. If I don't, how will they know (and why should I care if they do)?

 

[starayamoskva]

How will this "come back and bite you?" I did tell one program that I will likely rank them number one. If I don't, how will they know (and why should I care if they do)?

They will know that you didn't rank them number one because you didn't match there.
Why should you care... depends on whether you have to do oral boards for your specialty and whether or not the PD at the program you led on is an examiner and whether or not he/she remembers you.
Not a risk I am interested in taking.

 

[yaah]

How will this "come back and bite you?" I did tell one program that I will likely rank them number one. If I don't, how will they know (and why should I care if they do)?

It's very poor form and decidedly unprofessional. They will know if they rank you high enough to match and they don't get you. Because if you, like you said, put them first, then if they also put you high enough you would match there.

You are embarking on a career in this field, and academics often are familiar with each other. Is there a chance you will be looking for a fellowship or a job in that area in the future? It may not make a difference to some people, and they may not have any memory of it, but they also might.

 

[Amy]

I did say "I will LIKELY rank you #1." Isn't that different than saying "I WILL rank you #1?"

I think you're all too paranoid. 🙄

 

[starayamoskva]

I did say "I will LIKELY rank you #1." Isn't that different than saying "I WILL rank you #1?"

I think you're all too paranoid. 🙄

YOU are the one who has to live with the consequences. As long as you are comfortable with it, that is all that matters 😎

 

[b&ierstiefel]

I did say "I will LIKELY rank you #1." Isn't that different than saying "I WILL rank you #1?"

I think you're all too paranoid. 🙄

You know Amy, I think it's OK to say I will likely rank you #1. It's all in the wording. But PD's aren't stupid and will pick up on this. I've talked to my mentor about this recently and these followup letters in the long run means little. Ultimately they will rank people based on merit. The desperate programs who have insecurities that suck to begin with may pull off shenanigans like restructuring ROLs based on post-interview correspondences. For instance, I got two phone calls from one decent but very insecure program saying that they will rank me in their top 4 or 5 ONLY IF I rank them #1. Then I got a phone call last night from my #2 program that I am supposedly (and I stress this word since verbal commitments mean little and mean a little more if followed up by writing) ranked in their top 5 regardless of where they are on my ROL. Ultimately in the long run, we will hopefully match at somewhere we are happy with and we can look back on these days and just chuckle.

Where yaah is coming from is this. He is in the field of pathology which with respect to the academic sector is a relatively small community where many people know each other. They have parties where they break out the chocolate milk and cake. Hence, if you do anything to aggravate somebody, people may remember this. Word travels fast...I've seen this while talking to various PDs and department chairs who all seem to know each other. Lots of jobs in pathology are filled by word of mouth so if you piss somebody off, there it could hurt you and that's what yaah was trying to say I think. But if you're going into a big field like surgery (evidenced by your tagline), I think you'll be OK and you have more leeway.

 

[scootad.]

Is it dishonest to tell each of your top 5-6 programs that they will be ranked at the "top" of your ROL list? Technically this is not lying because you are not saying the word "#1" to multiple programs, just that they reside at the "top." Even so, do you think this type of thing could bite one in the ass later on?

I just think saying "I will rank you highly" is so wimpy and PDs see right through that. Whereas "at the top of my ROL" seems more assertive and can be interpreted many different ways.

I hate this crap

 

[GopherBrain]

I'm applying into neurology (a small specialty) and it has become very clear to me what a tiny world it is. Everyone knows everyone else, it is like the mafia. Plus, I do a sit-down interview with the PD and the chair at pretty much every program.

To get to the point, I would never want to "lead on" a program. Maybe they wouldn't remember me, but these are the same people I am going to be begging for a fellowship in 4 years, and a junior faculty position in 6 or so...

 

[b&ierstiefel]

Is it dishonest to tell each of your top 5-6 programs that they will be ranked at the "top" of your ROL list? Technically this is not lying because you are not saying the word "#1" to multiple programs, just that they reside at the "top." Even so, do you think this type of thing could bite one in the ass later on?

I just think saying "I will rank you highly" is so wimpy and PDs see right through that. Whereas "at the top of my ROL" seems more assertive and can be interpreted many different ways.

I hate this crap

I totally feel your frustration. My sentiments and actions will mirror GopherBrain. I will be honest to programs and hope that they will rank me based on merit rather than the likelihood that I rank them at the top of my ROL.

 

[sparkle79]

wondering the same thing--what do you say to your top programs -- highly, very highly, very interested among my top 3, at the top of the list etc?

 

[b&ierstiefel]

wondering the same thing--what do you say to your top programs -- highly, very highly, very interested among my top 3, at the top of the list etc?

exactly...I will tell #1 that they are #1. #2-5 I was planning on telling them that I will be ranking them extremely highly. #6-#10 I will wait for them to call me and ask me what I think of them (#10 has called me many times). I tell those folks, I think of your program very highly and am still very interested.

 

[kas23]

So if you use euphemisms, like "you will be the very, very, tippy top of my list," aren't you indirectly telling them that you are NOT ranking them No. 1 (because if you were, you would just flat-out tell them that)? So, wouldn't this tactic actually hurt your chances (that is, if these stupid letters mean anything).

 

[b&ierstiefel]

So if you use euphemisms, like "you will be the very, very, tippy top of my list," aren't you indirectly telling them that you are NOT ranking them No. 1 (because if you were, you would just flat-out tell them that)? So, wouldn't this tactic actually hurt your chances (that is, if these stupid letters mean anything).

that is a good point. however, think of it this way. let's say you have program X who is at #3 on your ROL. bunch of people are writing letters saying, "you're my #1" or "I'm ranking you very highly." they get no letter from you. they're probably gonna think that you're not interested, don't you think. they certainly won't get the impression that they're your #1 if you don't write them. i agree with you, these letters are stupid. it all started when some uber-competitive bunghole started writing brown-nosing letters to programs. then more people followed suit because they thought that not doing so would put them at some sort of disadvantage. now everybody is doing this. this is incredibly lame.

top notch programs probably don't care what you write them since they know they're gonna attract the best of the best candidates. it's only the crappy, insecure programs that will adjust their ROL accordingly based on these stupid correspondences.

 

[Amy]

that is a good point. however, think of it this way. let's say you have program X who is at #3 on your ROL. bunch of people are writing letters saying, "you're my #1" or "I'm ranking you very highly." they get no letter from you. they're probably gonna think that you're not interested, don't you think. they certainly won't get the impression that they're your #1 if you don't write them. i agree with you, these letters are stupid. it all started when some uber-competitive bunghole started writing brown-nosing letters to programs. then more people followed suit because they thought that not doing so would put them at some sort of disadvantage. now everybody is doing this. this is incredibly lame.

top notch programs probably don't care what you write them since they know they're gonna attract the best of the best candidates. it's only the crappy, insecure programs that will adjust their ROL accordingly based on these stupid correspondences.

So, let me get this straight... does everyone send follow-up letters to programs? I thought I was done after sending thank you letters. I don't want a program to think I'm not interested just because I didn't bother with the "thanks AGAIN for interviewing me, I'm ranking you highly" letter. I do plan on calling the PD at my #1 to tell him that I'm ranking the program #1, but I wasn't gonna do anything else for other programs.

😕 👎 😕 👎

 

[sparkle79]

no i definitely don't think everyone sends letters to numerous programs beyond thank you letters ( at least thats my impression) I was wondernig because my interviews were a while ago, and I am having a lot of problems ranking my top few so i dont have one PD that I can call and tell him they are my number one, because i simply dont know. so i was wondering about an alternative means of communication that does not involve saying " you're my number one" flat out, since i cant say that...

 

[orbitmd]

If you know you are going to rank them #1 then frankly there is no reason not to tell them you are going to. It isn't against any rules to tell a program unsolicited that they are your primary choice. Worst case scenario - they note it and do nothing to their rank list. Best case scenario they see this as an enthusiastic applicant and move you up, perhaps to make their own ranking stats look better.

Don't tell a program that you aren't ranking #1 that they are your #1 though. That is poor form and may come back and bite you later on.

It's not like dating where you tell someone you like them and they get scared off. Programs like residents who want to come there.

What happens if you end up changing your mind last minute about your #1 choice and have already sent a #1 letter to one program, but realize that you want to rank another program number 1. I feel bad about not ranking a program #1 after letting them know they are #1, but don't you have to ultimately do what you want even though it may be bad form?

 

[sparkle79]

prob not the greatest thing to do i'd guess...

 

[ears]

...but if you've really changed your mind, then change your ranking. I mean, it <i>might</i> cause you a problem (though I'd imagine this is pretty unlikely). But when it's all said and done, you certainly want to be happy with the program you put down as #1.

 

[DigableCat]

What happens if you end up changing your mind last minute about your #1 choice and have already sent a #1 letter to one program, but realize that you want to rank another program number 1. I feel bad about not ranking a program #1 after letting them know they are #1, but don't you have to ultimately do what you want even though it may be bad form?

And it's because of excuses like this that will allow programs to continue to call and tell applicants that "We are ranking you highly(READ: YOU WILL MATCH HERE)" yet when Match Day 2005 comes around, the student has a dumbfounded look on their face...

"Well, medical students do it to us all the time!" 🙄

 

[nradsoit3]

What happens if you end up changing your mind last minute about your #1 choice and have already sent a #1 letter to one program, but realize that you want to rank another program number 1. I feel bad about not ranking a program #1 after letting them know they are #1, but don't you have to ultimately do what you want even though it may be bad form?

Shady, shady if you ask me. Kind of like cheating on your fiance the week before the wedding. 😱

 

[barrytee]

is that wrong?

 

[scootad.]

what if you had told a program that they were going to be "at the top of my list" (but didnt use the actual words "#1")? is it unethical to not put them #1?

 

[TheDudeabides]

what if you had told a program that they were going to be "at the top of my list" (but didnt use the actual words "#1")? is it unethical to not put them #1?

I hope not cuz i told one place i was ranking them #1 via email and visited them again as well, emailed 2 places that they were at the "top of my list" and visited 2 other places for a 2nd time without actually stating anything about where i was ranking them but just let them assume that if i was coming back again that they would be high on my list. Yes I may be paranoid and it is a little shady but the top 2 -3 places on my list are more competitive bigger name universities and I might not match there so I visited those other 2 because even though they were community programs I still liked them a lot and would rather go to them than the other University programs I interviewed at. Oh yea, and i am going for rads and it is too damn competive in itself to feel comfortable matching at a place I want.

 

[GopherBrain]

I hope not cuz i told one place i was ranking them #1 via email and visited them again as well, emailed 2 places that they were at the "top of my list" and visited 2 other places for a 2nd time without actually stating anything about where i was ranking them but just let them assume that if i was coming back again that they would be high on my list. Yes I may be paranoid and it is a little shady but the top 2 -3 places on my list are more competitive bigger name universities and I might not match there so I visited those other 2 because even though they were community programs I still liked them a lot and would rather go to them than the other University programs I interviewed at. Oh yea, and i am going for rads and it is too damn competive in itself to feel comfortable matching at a place I want.

This is a very unDudelike level of anxiety. 😀

 

[ptolemy]

What happens if you end up changing your mind last minute about your #1 choice and have already sent a #1 letter to one program, but realize that you want to rank another program number 1. I feel bad about not ranking a program #1 after letting them know they are #1, but don't you have to ultimately do what you want even though it may be bad form?

Ultimately, you have to do what is best for you, but do it with caution. If you finished interviewing, sat down and thought about everything, then told a program you will rank them #1, chances are you will be happy if you match there. I would reccommend not telling a program they are #1 until you are *absolutely* sure you will rank them #1. Remember, you will have to be in the medical field working as these people's colleagues in the future, you may very well be applying for a fellowship at their program, and you may very well be applying for a job at their institution.

Also, telling a program you will rank them highly is like getting a letter from a PD saying "we feel you would fit in nicely here and look forward to working with you" ... it means jack. it probably means you will be ranked, which is what a PD probably feels about the word "highly." moreover, i have a feeling most programs really don't take communications into account that much, and it probably won't help too. much so you should stop stressing about what you are going to write.

But who knows, I'm a 4th year too, so this is only what I have been told by my school and residency programs and previous applicants.