Is it common practice for PI to not pay you for a full-time position?

[MelissaThompson]

I just graduated and have been looking for a full-time lab tech job. I got one PI to e-mail back and say "I could use your help on a project, please make an appointment with my secretary to set up a meeting." When I met with him, he stated that he felt I was qualified (had 1 year of experience) and that I can start as soon as possible.

However, he stated that he currently does not have funding to pay me, but that he would have funding soon. He wants me to get a feel for the lab and get trained in the meantime. When I asked him specifically how much would I get paid - he said he doesn't know how much funding he would get.

So - is this a common practice by PI? I am scared that he just wants free labor with the false promise of money "soon".

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[natorx]

Yes and no... My PI doesn't pay me directly, BUT has made sure I have gotten funding through grants and scholarships. I'm sure if my scholarship stopped she would pay me, but she's cheap and rather have the NIH/ NSF pay for her students. I have advantage being in a under-represented area, and population for some of these grants.

I know some others that had to work for a semester or so, and prove themselves. It all depends. I would recommend doing it free, it's great for applications purposes med and phd.

 

[natorx]

Sorry free as in volunteering to beef up app, I wouldn't put 40 hours in or anything free for free. You never know what volunteering some of your time can lead to.

 

[Beekachu]

I just graduated and have been looking for a full-time lab tech job. I got one PI to e-mail back and say "I could use your help on a project, please make an appointment with my secretary to set up a meeting." When I met with him, he stated that he felt I was qualified (had 1 year of experience) and that I can start as soon as possible.

However, he stated that he currently does not have funding to pay me, but that he would have funding soon. He wants me to get a feel for the lab and get trained in the meantime. When I asked him specifically how much would I get paid - he said he doesn't know how much funding he would get.

So - is this a common practice by PI? I am scared that he just wants free labor with the false promise of money "soon".

I know that for undergrads, my PI usually insists on some volunteer time in the lab first to get a feel for "fit" and competency. However, you have prior experience and a degree, so I don't think its reasonable to make you work for free, especially with no set date for when pay would start and no set salary info (regardless of the funding he may get, there is probably a going-rate for a lab tech in your area).

Tell him you are interested in the position, but cannot afford to work for free, so if he does secure funding for your position soon, he can contact you then.

Or maybe you could say you simply cannot afford to work for free, but if he does hire you (paid) now, that you can work on securing grants/scholarships to help continue to fund your position.

 

[ppappui]

It is rather common. I worked in a research lab for a year without pay post-graduation because the PI did not have enough funding. I still sucked up and did it because I wanted the experience, letter of recommendation, and boost in application. I did get a good LOR and got accepted to a medical school (after failing miserably the last 2 cycles), so I guess it was worth it 😀

 

[MelissaThompson]

I DO want the job if he does pay me later. In my area it has been extremely difficult to find a lab tech position - out of 50 or so PIs he was the only one to get back to me.

From your experience, the PI would LIKELY stick to his word and pay me "soon" right? He wouldn't have me work full-time for a year with no pay - correct?

 

[MelissaThompson]

It is rather common. I worked in a research lab for a year without pay post-graduation because the PI did not have enough funding. I still sucked up and did it because I wanted the experience, letter of recommendation, and boost in application. I did get a good LOR and got accepted to a medical school (after failing miserably the last 2 cycles), so I guess it was worth it 😀

Did you work full-time? 40 hours a week for a whole year is alot of free labor!

 

[CousCous]

I don't think any respectable PI would expect you to spend a year's worth of time post-graduation without paying you. If you are really worried about it happening, then I suggest that you look into other labs.

 

[kduck]

You can always take the position and keep looking around for something new (quietly) in case the funding never comes through. If you say no now, you might not be able to find anything, and that would be bad. Plus, maybe you accept with the condition that he support your application for your own scholarships/grants? Idk, just seems scary to pass up an offer of a resume-booster when you don't have anything else lined up.

 

[BHaus9]

I DO want the job if he does pay me later. In my area it has been extremely difficult to find a lab tech position - out of 50 or so PIs he was the only one to get back to me.

From your experience, the PI would LIKELY stick to his word and pay me "soon" right? He wouldn't have me work full-time for a year with no pay - correct?

I'd be wary of any promises that payment is coming. That is, if he doesn't have the money already, there's no guarantee that it will be coming, especially given the troubling state of the national grant-award lanscape: increased number of applications, decreased or constant federal funding. So, while his intentions may be pure, a sudden boon isn't something that can be taken for granted. Furthermore, since well-written grants will incorporate wages into their budget, it's unclear why the money's not there if your assistance is truly necessitated by the scope of the project.

As others have suggested, I would start on a volunteer basis (temporarily) while you look for other positions. I don't really think it's necessary for you to work full-time from the get-go, though. If he's not paying you, it's ridiculous to expect 40+ hours, and it doesn't seem like your application would be hurt any by reducing that load to ~20 hours as long as you can account for the extra time with other important activities (i.e. a PAID part-time job, clinical experience, a meaningful hobby, etc.)

 

[Midwestern Blot]

Tell him to show you the money or walk. You should be paid for your training. That's on them, and if they can't afford it, too bad. There are better opportunities out there.

 

[kami333]

I'd get clarification on what "funding soon" means. Does he have a grant that was accepted but not yet funded? Or is he currently looking for extra funding? I'd just be a little wary unless he gives you something more concrete.

It's very institution dependent from my experience, but at some places its almost expected. My first two PIs had policies that unless you had worked for a collaborator they asked you to volunteer for X months before they would pay you. I ended up working full time for free for a month before I got paid (already had a BA in bio but limited lab experience and I had been working in a completely different field for a few years) and I was lucky since most people did at least a few months. Granted they were very well funded labs so they could afford to be picky like that. University-wide it wasn't uncommon to find foreign postdocs volunteering either, usually they had followed spouses that had been offered paid positions and they hadn't been able to find something for themselves.

But times are tough and a foot in the door is a foot in the door. Like the other posters have mentioned I would see if you can volunteer part time while continuing to look for a paying position, who knows he might find some money if you have a competing offer.

 

[SnakeOil]

I DO want the job if he does pay me later. In my area it has been extremely difficult to find a lab tech position - out of 50 or so PIs he was the only one to get back to me.

From your experience, the PI would LIKELY stick to his word and pay me "soon" right? He wouldn't have me work full-time for a year with no pay - correct?

You could start with him and keep looking for a job in the meantime. That way you'll have a backup if he flakes out and can't pay you. It might get you some good lab experience in the meantime since it's hard to find a tech position.

 

[ppappui]

I DO want the job if he does pay me later. In my area it has been extremely difficult to find a lab tech position - out of 50 or so PIs he was the only one to get back to me.

From your experience, the PI would LIKELY stick to his word and pay me "soon" right? He wouldn't have me work full-time for a year with no pay - correct?

Did you work full-time? 40 hours a week for a whole year is alot of free labor!

I had a second job that paid me enough that I could work for free in the lab. The good thing was I was not constrained to the lab because I was a volunteer tech/assistant, so I could come in whenever I wanted to (9-11am) and leave whenever I could (3-7pm). So yes, I did work around 30 hours a week for free, but I needed some research and LOR to boost my app, and I also made some dough by working in addition to the lab work.

It's up to your PI "when" he chooses to pay you. I would personally get a back up plan in case this does not work out, but research work for 1 year + LOR is a pretty good way to boost up your application, along with some clinical related work.

 

[MelissaThompson]

I had a second job that paid me enough that I could work for free in the lab. The good thing was I was not constrained to the lab because I was a volunteer tech/assistant, so I could come in whenever I wanted to (9-11am) and leave whenever I could (3-7pm). So yes, I did work around 30 hours a week for free, but I needed some research and LOR to boost my app, and I also made some dough by working in addition to the lab work.

It's up to your PI "when" he chooses to pay you. I would personally get a back up plan in case this does not work out, but research work for 1 year + LOR is a pretty good way to boost up your application, along with some clinical related work.

ppappui, you said this is your 3rd cycle when you finally got accepted? wow - what were your stats?

 

[notbobtrustme]

Post-graduation, you should be looking for payment right away. The PI is basically full of **** and wants to get free labor. Seriously. I've seen this abuse perpetrated in several labs throughout my career, especially with young kids like yourself who don't know any better.

I would advise strongly against this position because once you've been hooked for free, he has no incentive to pay you ever.

 

[gmcguitar4]

the experience > pay

I believe this to an extent though. I have been working somewhere for 1.5 years NO pay. I am fortunate to have my own money saved up but I am at that point when enough is enough. It is good though b/c I have great experience to apply to other jobs with. I also got an amazing LOR that all of my interviewers brought up.

 

[tiedyeddog]

Uhm, hell no. He wants you to work a full time job for free?!? Even if you get a pub out of it, that's a huge waste of time. Set up the pay before you start. You should get paid during training, too. What kind of job expects you to volunteer to get trained to do your job? The answer: not any job a degree holding individual, looking for a full time job needs. That crap flies for undergrads doing the part time thing, they tend to be so flaky PIs have to be wary. But a full time tech? Whole 'nother story.

It's perfectly normal to "volunteer", aka be slave labor, for maybe 10-15 hours a week in the situation were you just do some experiments here and there, don't come to the lab during busy weeks, aren't held responsible for things going wrong.

Not ok to be a graduate student without the stipend, health insurance, or working towards a degree. Sounds like the PI is trying to take advantage of you.

P.S. if a PI can't find the money for a lowly tech position, it's probably a horrible sign.

 

[BiochemGirlYay]

I honestly think it's pretty common ... I know a lot of people who started volunteering as unpaid interns that were later upgraded to full research assistants. In fact now that I think about it, that's how most research assistants I know have their jobs. That said, I don't know anyone who did the unpaid intern thing full-time after graduation. So my advice would be to take up the internship, but only as a part-time thing so that you can keep looking for a job that actually pays. I'm sure the PI will understand, and it will put pressure on him to hire you faster.

 

[EnergyDrink]

If you're looking for money, don't do it. With the current financial crisis, grants are getting harder to come by.

Is he a new PI? If so, then its likely he'll get a grant. If hes been around for a bit, it might be years until he gets one if he doesn't already.

 

[Beekachu]

I DO want the job if he does pay me later. In my area it has been extremely difficult to find a lab tech position - out of 50 or so PIs he was the only one to get back to me.

From your experience, the PI would LIKELY stick to his word and pay me "soon" right? He wouldn't have me work full-time for a year with no pay - correct?

I still think that you shouldn't be required to work for free if you have prior lab experience AND are now post-graduation. Just keep looking.

If you have only gotten any sort of response from ONE out of 50 PIs contacted, maybe you should change your strategy. Maybe your resume/emails are too generic? Also, it's helpful to not have a generic subject line that might quickly get passed over through the dozens and dozens of daily emails.

You could also check the employment pages of your local universities for open lab tech jobs. It might just be unlikely that a random PI that you cold-call needs/wants an additional lab tech.

 

[otggwmfs]

.

 

[1TB4RKSB4CK]

If it's 40 hours/week with no pay, decline.
Regardless of any circumstances.

 

[IlDestriero]

That's ridiculous. You're not some undergrad looking for a part time gig.
You have experience, you have a degree, it's time to get paid. Period.
Apply for actual jobs, don't cold call/email random people.
You need all the things that come with full time employment. Pay, security, insurance, retirement matching, etc. This joker won't give you any of that. If your lucky he'll lead you on for a few months and pay you around minimum wage for an unrecognized "part time" (full time) research job. A funded university research job will give you everything, and an industry job will pay you twice as much.
The days of volunteering and them "doing you a favor" are over.
Go do something you want to do, follow a dream, take a risk.
What's more interesting? You worked for a deadbeat who has trouble getting grant money or working on something that you actually are interested in?
I'd go work at a whiskey distillery racking barrels before I donated my time in some jokers lab. At least the distillery job will give you something interesting to talk about at an interview. You might get to use your research/chemistry skills there as well.

 

[MelissaThompson]

That's ridiculous. You're not some undergrad looking for a part time gig.
You have experience, you have a degree, it's time to get paid. Period.
Apply for actual jobs, don't cold call/email random people.
You need all the things that come with full time employment. Pay, security, insurance, retirement matching, etc. This joker won't give you any of that. If your lucky he'll lead you on for a few months and pay you around minimum wage for an unrecognized "part time" (full time) research job. A funded university research job will give you everything, and an industry job will pay you twice as much.
The days of volunteering and them "doing you a favor" are over.
Go do something you want to do, follow a dream, take a risk.
What's more interesting? You worked for a deadbeat who has trouble getting grant money or working on something that you actually are interested in?
I'd go work at a whiskey distillery racking barrels before I donated my time in some jokers lab. At least the distillery job will give you something interesting to talk about at an interview. You might get to use your research/chemistry skills there as well.

Thanks for the advice - your post speaks strongest to me. I will now def. turn down the job and keep searching.

It is VERY difficult to find a job by applying to actual positions. There are only half a dozen postings and I didn't get a single interview from applying to those. Science jobs are few and far in between.

 

[tiedyeddog]

Thanks for the advice - your post speaks strongest to me. I will now def. turn down the job and keep searching.

It is VERY difficult to find a job by applying to actual positions. There are only half a dozen postings and I didn't get a single interview from applying to those. Science jobs are few and far in between.

This probably doesn't help you, but I was in a similar situation last year. I was taking a gap year and couldn't find a job in an academic research lab (I had a couple years of academic research and really just wanted cash money so I could do vacations and whatever.) I found a job on craigslist and it actually turned into a 40k/year job with health benefits and a ton of paid time off. It was at a big pharma company doing a science job.

Think outside the box, you don't have to stay in academia if you already have experience. Academia sucks, anyway.

 

[kami333]

Academia sucks, anyway.

Industry sucks.

Except for the pay😛

 

[AllDaWEI]

Come on people! What's wrong with all of you?! What kind of decent person wouls not volunteer in the lab? What, do you hate helping the community? And since when do people have an expectation to make money? On SDN, the consensus is doctors don't! 🙄

 

[tantacles]

Come on people! What's wrong with all of you?! What kind of decent person wouls not volunteer in the lab? What, do you hate helping the community? And since when do people have an expectation to make money? On SDN, the consensus is doctors don't! 🙄

So you're just gonna remain bitter about having to volunteer for your entire life?

 

[AllDaWEI]

So you're just gonna remain bitter about having to volunteer for your entire life?

It depends. I was just joking around here.

 

[tantacles]

It depends. I was just joking around here.

Yeah, it's just been coming up a lot lately. This isn't an attack at you, persay, but I'm getting kind of tired of hearing the sentiment.

Can you go back to making happy chinese girl jokes?

 

[octupus]

the experience > pay

I believe this to an extent though. I have been working somewhere for 1.5 years NO pay. I am fortunate to have my own money saved up but I am at that point when enough is enough. It is good though b/c I have great experience to apply to other jobs with. I also got an amazing LOR that all of my interviewers brought up.

experience > pay is true if:
a) if you are still in high school or undergrad
b) your parents are willing to support you
c) you have a secret stash of money 🙂thumbup:gmcguitar!)
d) it's a part time deal
e) it's temporary and promises to turn into a paid position in less than 2 months

Since your situation isn't any of those. DECLINE. In academia research, your pay is so little for the amount of hours you're probably going to have to put in. The least they can do is give you enough money to pay for rent and food!

 

[typhoonegator]

This isn't an attack at you, persay, but I'm getting kind of tired of hearing the sentiment.

Per se, not persay. Latin for "in itself"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Per_se

Carry on.

 

[tiedyeddog]

Industry sucks.

Except for the pay😛

I love when I wake up and smell da monay.

 

[kami333]

I love when I wake up and smell da monay.

lol

The money got old for me after a few years, but now that I don't have it I miss it🙁

 

[Katatonic]

The PI is trying to get free labor, so look elsewhere. Funding can disappear overnight and losing a tech that was working for free won't make the PI lose any sleep. Keep looking and if you're post-grad then make sure your salary is in your contract before you sign anything.

 

[45408]

Tell him to show you the money or walk. You should be paid for your training. That's on them, and if they can't afford it, too bad. There are better opportunities out there.

Agreed. I'm sure he has some money available but is choosing not to use it. Don't fall for this trick.

 

[AllDaWEI]

Yeah, it's just been coming up a lot lately. This isn't an attack at you, persay, but I'm getting kind of tired of hearing the sentiment.

Can you go back to making happy chinese girl jokes?

No very happy Chinese girl jokes for this thread! She got into Harvard helping the Chinese community once a month, but no research. Take note, HMS doesn't need research! 😀

But in seriousness to the OP, it is tough spot. If you won't do it free, another pre-med likely will.

 

[natorx]

You gotta pay me just to breath on the mic

 

[thewobblytooth]

I agree with most people on here. Don't work for free. You have to continually apply to these lab tech position jobs until you have someone that guarantees your salary, health benefits, vacation time, etc. Of course, I did research most of my undergraduate career and was able to get a full-time lab tech job right after I graduated, but I would never even consider working for free once that happened. You could be doing other things with your time than working for free. There is one person in my lab that is working for free before going to med-school, but why? It's a waste of time.

 

[Ilovewater]

If you need the money, definitely do not work for free. He doesn't have the funding now...what makes him think he'll get the funding soon? If he can't guarantee you money, I'd look elsewhere. Even if he gets the money, he said he doesn't know how much he'll get. What if he decides to pay you minimum wage then?

 

[thewobblytooth]

a lab with funding will tell you straight up what the salary would be, if they have enough funding for 1-2 years, and if they are serious in hiring you. the funding situation is horrible across the country, so I wouldn't "leave it to chance" to see if this PI can secure funding in the "near future".

 

[wholeheartedly]

I'd also decline. I got trained in for 4 for weeks while they "got the administrative stuff taken care of" only to have the funding that was supposed to be there fall through and be told oh, sorry we can't pay you for the work you did like we said we would. This was a PI who knew I needed a job to pay rent money and some medical bills. Then another PI who said he'd take me, wound up having his son not get a research spot in the lab he was supposed to be doing research in because their funding got cut. So he hired his son instead.

I wound up getting a job lifeguarding at the Y for six weeks until a former professor of mine shot me an email with the name of another guy to talk to who did hired me on the spot for pay based on my experience. So I wound up doing research and teaching swimming lessons for the next two years.


*** Edit**** I also think it makes a little bit of a difference if the volunteering thing is your idea vs. the PI's idea. If you're the first one to bring it up because you really want the experience and the lab is so awesome and doing cool stuff in your area of interest and all that and the PI doesn't know much about you or your skills, maybe it would be ok to volunteer for a bit in that situation. But him suggesting it to someone with experience who was looking for pay makes it a bit sketchy. How many other kinds of bosses get an indefinite free trial period with their employees?