Is it common to have a full time job with a side part time job or p/t practice?

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benjee

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Hi all,
Just curious if it is common practice to have a full time job with a p/t gig? If it is common in psychiatry, are there any other specialties carries similar phenomenon?
 
Now that I'm done being facetious - Yes, it is a common practice to have an employed job that provides benefits like health insurance, retirement funds, etc. while also having an outpatient private practice on the side. This is often an arrangement a new grad will have while they build up the private practice over a period of years until it reaches the point that it becomes more financially viable to quit the employed job, go full-time private practice, and pay for all the overhead out of pocket. This can also be a long-term arrangement for folks who don't like getting nailed down into one style of practice.

This doesn't work well in other specialties (that I'm aware of), because their overhead is so high. To make it pay to have a medical office with exam rooms, front office staff, medical records, etc., you essentially have to be doing it full time so that the costs of those things are covered by revenue. Outpatient psychiatry requires (at bare bones minimum), an sub-letted office, (relatively cheap) malpractice insurance, a laptop, and a voicemail.
 
A FT/PT setup can happen in other specialities, but as Doc S points out, it's less likely that your PT gig would be at a place you own. That being said, it's fairly common to see FM docs working at an office, and at an urgent care place, for example. Or, dual boarded docs who do hospitalist and ER (or whatever). But, it definitely seems easier in psych.
 
I do part time private practice. The pro of doing it part time is that it that it takes time to build up a list of patients. You just can't open an office and then bam they're there.

Doing work elsewhere gives you a stable income until the private practice fills up. In general, there is a shortage of psychiatrists, so the time to build up the practice won't be long, but it could take several months.

From there, you can increase your private practice hours and decrease your hours at the other place.
 
I do part time private practice. The pro of doing it part time is that it that it takes time to build up a list of patients. You just can't open an office and then bam they're there.

Doing work elsewhere gives you a stable income until the private practice fills up. In general, there is a shortage of psychiatrists, so the time to build up the practice won't be long, but it could take several months.

From there, you can increase your private practice hours and decrease your hours at the other place.

As I understand to it takes up time to start a pp, do you have a company to set it up for you ?since there are different aspects eg. sign up with different insurance companies, where to get malpractice insurance, and what type ( tail or occurence, inform consent form, computer program for storage pt information....etc.
 
IMHO you'd best work for a PP and figure out how it works before you start one on your own. The problem here is if you work in another person's PP, most PPs have a no-compete clause where you cannot compete with them, possibly even after you leave so long as you are within a specific geographic distance. (Read up on the contract!)

Private practice IMHO, and this was mentioned on the board before by one of the attendings, is one of those things where you have to expect it to pay less than a regular attending position for several months.

Why? You only make money when you see patients. The first few months, you will be filling up and you will have several open spots with no one to see. After you see these people after perhaps 2-3x, you know them well enough to the point where you don't have to spend as much time on them. E.g. I have an existing patient I've seen several times. She has a complaint, I almost automatically know what to do. A brand new patient? You're going to have to spend the extra time to figure them out.

I have ADHD patients that for example, I've already figured out what's going on but they have to see me every month to get their stimulant medication. Since that's all they want, all I have to do is refill it. I do a few other things such as check their BP, weight and remind them that stimulants have their problems but that is far less complex than seeing that ADHD for the first time and explaining to them the disorder, do some ADHD testing, that I prefer to not give them a stimulant at first, and trying Wellbutrin or Strattera first.

Another problem with starting a private practice is if you accept insurance (and if you don't, you are severely cutting the # of patients you can see), it's a pain in the butt getting on insurance panels. There are still some insurance companies that have not put me on their panels after more than 6 months of doing their paperwork. One particular company I've submitted my application over 4x and each time they tell me that it's missing something such as my C.V. despite that I've sent it to them multiple times by fax and certified mail.

Insurance companies also play games in trying to avoid paying you. They're make some claim that you didn't fill out form 29833407, but you instead filled out form 234904320593. Then you fill out form 29833407 and then they tell you they needed form 2340594385 instead. What you need here is an office manager. I'm talking a damn good one. The office manager has to be Scotty to your Capt. Kirk. If you get someone to take that position that only sees it as a job they don't give a damn about...forgret. Replace that person until you get the right person. Trust me, a bad office manager is to the point where it's not even worth doing private practice.

You got to worry about a lot of things you wouldn't have to otherwise. E.g. in private practice you have to start worrying about the snow being shovelled, what to do with patients that are extremely irritable (will you have security in your office? Likely not!), etc. These are things you don't have to worry about in other settings.

The pros though are that you are your own person. You have more control over things and you have more possibilities to make more profit if you do things right.

There are plenty of things I can't write about PP because it's really too much information in a post.

It's one of those things where you really got to do it to figure it out. Starting one completely on your own and with no experience, I'd guestimate that for most new attendings, it would be profitable but the attending will make several $10,000 errors before they got it right.
 
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As I understand to it takes up time to start a pp, do you have a company to set it up for you ?since there are different aspects eg. sign up with different insurance companies, where to get malpractice insurance, and what type ( tail or occurence, inform consent form, computer program for storage pt information....etc.

It has been a big point of feedback at my former residency program that there isn't enough (or any) didactic teaching, informal mentoring, etc geared towards residents who want to go into private practice. The ones who do this are completely on their own.

-AT.
 
Given the child shortage, do you think it's any easier to start a PP that doesn't take insurance? Does it limit your pt population as much as in adult?
 
It has been a big point of feedback at my former residency program that there isn't enough (or any) didactic teaching, informal mentoring, etc geared towards residents who want to go into private practice. The ones who do this are completely on their own.

-AT.

As a point of contrast, my residency program had a well-structured longitudinal "transition to practice" course that prepared residents for the nuts-and-bolts of life after graduation, including private practice (everything from malpractice coverage to finding patients to where to buy prescription pads)- as a result the vast majority of folks graduating from the program have some form of private practice.
 
Given the child shortage, do you think it's any easier to start a PP that doesn't take insurance? Does it limit your pt population as much as in adult?

It most definitely will cut down the # of patients willing to see you, but if the demand is big enough, you still may have a full schedule of patients.

If you can only see 20 patients in a day and there's 50 that want to see you in a day out of pocket vs. 500 that are willing to see you with insurance...you do the math. You'll still be able to operate without the insured patients.

Being out-of-pocket-only is possible but don't expect any guarantees. Depending on your area, you might not be able to fill up with only out-of-pocket payers. You also better be good enough to justify only out-of-pocket. There are, for example, some psychiatrists that only take out-of-pocket in NYC, an area that has no shortage of psychiatrists, but several of these psychiatrists are some of the best, with years of experience, academic honors, etc. I could only think that out-of-pocket would be a completely safe bet in one of the most underserved areas such as rural Iowa.

Something I forgot to mention, if you run a PP, be prepared to be slammed by having to pay an arm and leg to provide your employees with healthcare coverage.
 
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It most definitely will cut down the # of patients willing to see you, but if the demand is big enough, you still may have a full schedule of patients.

Thanks for the input whopper...I'm a bit confused, because I see a lot of talk here about psychiatrists not taking insurance and having patients pay up front, then file for their own reimbursement later...maybe this isn't the norm, but it seems to be talked about like it's fairly common. I've also seen similar arrangements from perusing various psychiatrists' websites.

For example, there's a child psych guy in my hometown charging $115 for med management and $225 for intake. Then again, there's only about 3 child PP's in town (pop ~80,000) and they all have 1 year+ waiting lists...

I'm a 3rd year student trying to pick a specialty, and one of the things drawing me to psych, aside from the work (which I do enjoy, regardless of $), is the seemingly easier ability to set up a PP practice (compared to other specialties, like FM). In psych, it seems the overhead is lower and there is more ability to bypass the Medicare/Insurance industry, if you're in the right area, obviously.

Am I totally off base?
 
You're not off base, but like I said, a lot can depend on an area. Where I'm currently working, I accept out of pocket in addition to insurance. It took me about 5 months to fill up and I'm doing PP part time.
 
Insurance companies also play games in trying to avoid paying you. They're make some claim that you didn't fill out form 29833407, but you instead filled out form 234904320593.

Totally true. You hear all this talk of Medicare fraud and how the Medicare system is scammed out of billions of dollars. And I want to know what the criminals know that I don't. I was in solo practice for just over a year and I have yet to see one dime from Medicare. They owe me literally thousands of dollars that I've pretty much given up hope of ever seeing.
 
cash only models, or having pt's file for insurance models can work and provide good income while still seeing patients of less than pecunious means. At least in FM.

Of course I'm still agitating for govt to let docs work off their taxes by giving reduced rate/free care instead of paying the IRS. Would never happen, but wouldn't it be awesome to be able to see 30-40% of your pts for free instead of paying taxes? I'd crap myself.
 
cash only models, or having pt's file for insurance models can work and provide good income while still seeing patients of less than pecunious means.
I can't imagine poor patients (disclosure: had to look up pecunious) heading to a cash-only psychiatrist if they had any other option. Getting the poor to pay cash up front with vague comments that they may get reimbursed by Medicare/Medicaid if they fill out all their forms correctly sounds like something I'd be extremely dubious of if I were poor.

The only cash-only practices in family I've heard of really working out were middle class (or usually higher) patients that had their $hit together enough to pony up the cash and run down the paperwork like a hawk. Even then, the only people I know of that go to these docs do so because they can take the cash payment as a loss without a problem if they need to.
 
And I want to know what the criminals know that I don't. I was in solo practice for just over a year and I have yet to see one dime from Medicare.

Another reason why PP isn't for everyone. You have to start worrying about getting your payments from services you provided months ago. You start becoming the pseudo-bill collector.

If you work for someone else, and get paid per hour, you get paid whether or not the insurance company or the government pays the institution or not. Do not try to get the money yourself. You'll be on the phone for hours trying to get $60 for the patient's last visit. I know because I actually tried this once to see what it was like. The companies will refer you to someone else in the company, then do it again, then do it again with each person claiming to not be the right person.
 
Just another comment on PP.

I've gotten several job offers from some very good institutions. I could become a professor of psychiatry, and someone I know at a highly respected institution has been trying to get me to work there.

The problem I'm having is if I take one of the above jobs, I have to leave the PP, in effect leaving the patients I've accumulated to the wind. I know for a fact that most of the other psychiatrists in the local area I practice are terrible.

You take a PP you have to have some commitment to it. I could just leave the PP so long as I give a month's notice if I simply stick to standard set by the law, but I'd be screwing my patients and the practice has become lucrative. I'm trying to figure out what to do.
 
Just another comment on PP.

I've gotten several job offers from some very good institutions. I could become a professor of psychiatry, and someone I know at a highly respected institution has been trying to get me to work there.

The problem I'm having is if I take one of the above jobs, I have to leave the PP, in effect leaving the patients I've accumulated to the wind. I know for a fact that most of the other psychiatrists in the local area I practice are terrible.

You take a PP you have to have some commitment to it. I could just leave the PP so long as I give a month's notice if I simply stick to standard set by the law, but I'd be screwing my patients and the practice has become lucrative. I'm trying to figure out what to do.

I'd stick with your PP. Being your own boss is always better than being someone else's. Might be more headaches, but they're your headaches. Personally, I get rather pissed off when I find my bosses making crap loads of money off my work. "We'll pay you 200k/yr but you generate 2x that ini billings for us, ok?". I used to sell over 10k of music gear a month. My salary, $12/hr. Working for the man sucks and if you've escaped it you should celebrate. That being said, if you hate it, or really LOVE research, it might be different. How about adjunct faculty?
 
Just another comment on PP.

I've gotten several job offers from some very good institutions. I could become a professor of psychiatry, and someone I know at a highly respected institution has been trying to get me to work there.

The problem I'm having is if I take one of the above jobs, I have to leave the PP, in effect leaving the patients I've accumulated to the wind. I know for a fact that most of the other psychiatrists in the local area I practice are terrible.

You take a PP you have to have some commitment to it. I could just leave the PP so long as I give a month's notice if I simply stick to standard set by the law, but I'd be screwing my patients and the practice has become lucrative. I'm trying to figure out what to do.
Thanks eveyone for information.
where are your pp located? agree that some kind of commitment is needed for pp, and that's why I need some time before really dwell into it. i was thinking about only open one day /week pp and only taking limited numbers of pts maybe taking only one insurance company because I dont' want to give up my current f/t job . I am not sure if that's feasible. by any chance , are there any resources I can read on about start up pp?
 
Just another comment on PP.

I've gotten several job offers from some very good institutions. I could become a professor of psychiatry, and someone I know at a highly respected institution has been trying to get me to work there.

The problem I'm having is if I take one of the above jobs, I have to leave the PP, in effect leaving the patients I've accumulated to the wind. I know for a fact that most of the other psychiatrists in the local area I practice are terrible.

You take a PP you have to have some commitment to it. I could just leave the PP so long as I give a month's notice if I simply stick to standard set by the law, but I'd be screwing my patients and the practice has become lucrative. I'm trying to figure out what to do.
Whopper, I presume the academic offers are in different cities than you're in now? If not, I know plenty of faculty that maintain a part-time PP, just reducing the size to balance. Some universities take a "tax" or percentage if you're on the full academic professor track.
 
Thanks eveyone for information.
where are your pp located? agree that some kind of commitment is needed for pp, and that's why I need some time before really dwell into it. i was thinking about only open one day /week pp and only taking limited numbers of pts maybe taking only one insurance company because I dont' want to give up my current f/t job . I am not sure if that's feasible. by any chance , are there any resources I can read on about start up pp?

There's plenty of business books out there. I think my best resource so far is talking with those running successful PP's.
 
...what to do with patients that are extremely irritable (will you have security in your office? Likely not!)....

This has concerned me about a private practice. How do you deal with safety concerns if you're just a person with a rented office, a computer, and an answering machine? If a patient or someone with the patient got violent, things could go extremely badly in that setting. The idea of just opening up shop in your own building and running a practice solo is really appealing to me, but one bad incident of assault could make it all not worth it by a longshot. (Don't think that I believe that psych is really dangerous, I don't. If once every twenty years a patient goes full tilt on the violence, though, it is a major concern for someone who would be alone facing it.)
 
The safety of the PP will depend on you and how much you are willing to put into it.

Take for example #1--and this is where I do PP. It's a private office mostly made of psychologists and counselors. There is no security other than calling the police and having to wait for them to show up that could take 20 minutes.

Example #2: (a practice I've been offered to take over by someone prominent in the area): the office is in a hospital office buildling. It shares the same security as the hospital. If I press a button, security is there in about 30 seconds. I also have a hospital pharmacy on grounds and several hospital related benefits including referrals galore (the guy who owns it tells me 8 a week is actually very low).

If you do have a PP and a patient flies off the handle and cops can't show up for 20 minutes, you could try to offer the patient samples of Zyprexa Zydis. That happened to me. A problem is several offices, out of JCAHO compliance concerns no longer carry samples. This IMHO is an example of how JCAHO is actually making things worse. Not having samples can be detrimental in many ways.

While I do not own the PP in example 1, I'm basically the golden goose. They know I'm one of the only psychiatrists in the area and they are very happy with my work. I told them a few weeks ago I might go to an academic position and I really put a scare into them.

Whopper, I presume the academic offers are in different cities than you're in now?
They're in the area. I can't work in the other two jobs if I work outside the institutions. The institutions have clauses where you can't work for anyone else. I'm currently working in a state hospital where they allow me to do PP, and I have extreme flexibility with my work. I can do my hours whenever I want so long as I do 32 a week and show up no later than 10 am but leave no later than 8pm. If I want to go on vacation, I can try to load up extra hours (e.g. a 14 hour work day) to prevent vacation hours from being used up as much the days I'm off. I find the state job easy, maybe a little too easy. I don't feel like I'm doing hard work (I spent 4 hours on Monday watching sci-fi DVDs in my office) and my ratings are literally the highest of any doctor in the hospital.

So in short it comes down to doing a job where I feel like I'm living up to my potential vs. a combo of a lucrative PP where I work hard and a state job where the work is 32 hours a week but feels like it's 16 hours a week.
 
Hi whopper ,
are you saying you only work 32 hrs/week and getting full salary? that is nice.
 
I get benefits as if I'm full time but no I don't get paid for 40 hours of work. The state hospital also agreed to pay my student loans (in the form of extra money attached to my paycheck that is not taxed) though my debt is miniscule.

Forgot to mention this (hence the edit).

For patients in the first example office I mentioned, I will not be able to effectively treat patients with a very low GAF. I literally told a few patients I could not provide for their needs in that private practice because IMHO they needed a case manager. That type of PP setting is in general only for someone with a GAF of at least 45 or above.

I had a patient that was suicidal several times in a week calling up that office, imposing herself on the receptionist (someone with a HS diploma and no real mental health training) about 3 hours a day, 5 days a week. With regret, I had to tell her that I could not provide the level of care she needed and I referred to the the local community mental health clinic where they had case management.

Naturally, someone with private insurance or the ability to pay out of pocket usually is of a GAF of 50 or higher. In this type of setting you usually get someone who is able to work but is suffering from excessive depression, anxiety, or may have bipolar disorder but in the level of severity where they can still hold a job. You will from time to time get patients that may not be appropriate for what you can provide in such a setting, and in that case, make sure you follow the state guidelines if you refer them to others. In my state, I have to provide that person with at least one month of emergency services should they need them after I refer them to someone else. IF that person is hospitalized, I have my staff call the hospital and ask them to refer the patient to someone instead of myself who could provide them with the appropriate care.

In the few cases where I referred the patient out, I carefully explained to the patient and sometimes their family why I made that decision, and portrayed it as an inability, not a lack of desire on my part, to treat them given the resources of the office setting. So far, every time I've done that, everyone told me they understood and even agreed with my decision. It makes sense to someone (or their family) who is chronically suicidal and seeking help to have someone check up on them in their home and maybe help out a little (e.g. witness the person take meds, provide groceries etc).

I recommend if you work in such a setting to not accept patients with a history of extreme violence while psychotic or manic, especially if they have a history of poor compliance. I'd only be willing to take such a patient in an outpatient setting if there were security that responded within seconds and case management were available. I've worked in that setting while in fellowship and on the order of about once every 2-3 months, I had a patient decompensate in the office and security had to show up.

In those offices, they literally had panic buttons that were secretly located under the desk that directly alerted not only the security in the office but also the local police.

(Hmm.....so that's why almost all of my forensic fellowship professors were armed to the teeth with guns, and why my PD looked pale when on a dare I was able to find his home address on the internet along with satellite pics of it within seconds in front of his eyes, even though he took efforts to keep himself unlisted. I'm not joking about that one.)
 
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