Is it fair to say this about PGY?

[Chem Blade]

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Inherent value of gaining knowledge aside...strictly on a materialistic/practical level, the only reason someone would do a residency (PGY2) is if they like to precept, teach, manage, research, present or if they think there is no way for them to get a staffing position at a hospital all without a residency (PGY1).

Would you say that this is accurate?

At the hospital that I intern in, we have staff pharmacists who never did a residency, are board certififed/and specialty board certified, work in a specialty unit, publish on their own time, go on rounds and manage a vancomycin protocol, on top of staffing.

 

[gwarm01]

It depends entirely on the culture of the institutions you wish to work for, which is largely but not entirely based on geography. There are hospitals that will hire directly from pharmacy school, give you plenty of training, and allow you to progress through the ranks to whichever position work towards. There are other hospitals that won't hire anyone to staff unless they have a residency and/or hospital experience, and won't even consider someone without a PGY2 for specialist positions.

Oh, and let's not forget the hospitals that want to hire only residency trained pharmacists but must reluctantly hire new PharmDs because they are trying to punch above their weight. I remember a time when my director said they would preferably hire someone with a PGY2 for an evening staffing position. We went with a new grad.

 

[Chem Blade]

It depends entirely on the culture of the institutions you wish to work for, which is largely but not entirely based on geography. There are hospitals that will hire directly from pharmacy school, give you plenty of training, and allow you to progress through the ranks to whichever position work towards. There are other hospitals that won't hire anyone to staff unless they have a residency and/or hospital experience, and won't even consider someone without a PGY2 for specialist positions.

Oh, and let's not forget the hospitals that want to hire only residency trained pharmacists but must reluctantly hire new PharmDs because they are trying to punch above their weight. I remember a time when my director said they would preferably hire someone with a PGY2 for an evening staffing position. We went with a new grad.

Thanks for replying!

Just a side question if you don't mind, personally, what do you prefer? Do you prefer the hospitals that cater to PGY2, maybe PGY1s to a much lesser extent, while not really encouraging the growth of their non-PGY trained pharmacists. Or do you prefer an institution that helps all their pharmacists grow?

 

[gwarm01]

Thanks for replying!

Just a side question if you don't mind, personally, what do you prefer? Do you prefer the hospitals that cater to PGY2, maybe PGY1s to a much lesser extent, while not really encouraging the growth of their non-PGY trained pharmacists. Or do you prefer an institution that helps all their pharmacists grow?

I very strongly prefer the latter. I feel that the "you MUST have a residency" attitude creates a very insular culture and an uncomfortable power structure. Luckily most institutions will hire someone with adequate experience (and maybe a board certification) for specialist positions.

 

[Apples2Oranges]

Pharmacy residency was probably one of the dumbest ideas from the ASHP just to get a staffing position. What's the point of a residency when another kid in your graduating class got the same clinical position just from knowing someone? It's like paid interning with high debt after graduation.

Residencies should be preserved for those who want to really in specialize in something. Not community or hospital staffing. Are you kidding me?

 

[beautifulrobot]

Inherent value of gaining knowledge aside...strictly on a materialistic/practical level, the only reason someone would do a residency (PGY2) is if they like to precept, teach, manage, research, present or if they think there is no way for them to get a staffing position at a hospital all without a residency (PGY1).

Would you say that this is accurate?

At the hospital that I intern in, we have staff pharmacists who never did a residency, are board certififed/and specialty board certified, work in a specialty unit, publish on their own time, go on rounds and manage a vancomycin protocol, on top of staffing.

If all you are looking at is staffing positions, then yeah, your statement is pretty accurate. But if you're talking about other jobs besides staffing positions, one obvious reason for completing a PGY2 is that it's generally the quickest way to get board certified, which is highly preferred/required for most clinical specialty jobs. You can get board certified without a PGY2, but it will just take you longer to get there.

edited to clarify: board certified in the specialty you are interested in pursuing, not just BCPS, which you do qualify to sit for after completing a PGY1.

 

[gwarm01]

If all you are looking at is staffing positions, then yeah, your statement is pretty accurate. But if you're talking about other jobs besides staffing positions, one obvious reason for completing a PGY2 is that it's generally the quickest way to get board certified, which is highly preferred/required for most clinical specialty jobs. You can get board certified without a PGY2, but it will just take you longer to get there.

edited to clarify: board certified in the specialty you are interested in pursuing, not just BCPS, which you do qualify to sit for after completing a PGY1.

This is still highly dependent on where you live. I'm a relatively recent grad and was told by my professors that I'd need to do a residency for these types of jobs, and yet I was able to work in peds critical care, peds oncology, and now informatics all without a residency. That's just how things are in the SE. The right person who makes the right moves can still move into these specialized positions. That may be changing for new grads though, I really can't say. I'm sure it varies by institution, but we aren't at West coast levels of job requirements yet.

 

[Chem Blade]

If all you are looking at is staffing positions, then yeah, your statement is pretty accurate. But if you're talking about other jobs besides staffing positions, one obvious reason for completing a PGY2 is that it's generally the quickest way to get board certified, which is highly preferred/required for most clinical specialty jobs. You can get board certified without a PGY2, but it will just take you longer to get there.

edited to clarify: board certified in the specialty you are interested in pursuing, not just BCPS, which you do qualify to sit for after completing a PGY1.

I guess my question is, what do you consider to be "staffing"? Of course verifying is staffing, but some staff also go on rounds, can publish, and can participate in vancomycin protocols in New York, for example.

What do you consider to be exclusively PGY2? I would imagine precepting/teaching, managing, starting projects and presenting. Do you agree with this?

 

[beautifulrobot]

I guess my question is, what do you consider to be "staffing"? Of course verifying is staffing, but some staff also go on rounds, can publish, and can participate in vancomycin protocols in New York, for example.

What do you consider to be exclusively PGY2? I would imagine precepting/teaching, managing, starting projects and presenting. Do you agree with this?

When I think staffing I think staffing in a pharmacy (verifying orders, supervising technicians, etc.). A staff pharmacist can rotate through clinics and do other things besides staffing, no doubt. There are hardly any jobs as a pharmacist where you don't end up wearing multiple hats and have all sorts of collateral duties assigned to you. There are also hospitals where clinical and staff pharmacists rotate. You specified staffing position, which I assumed to mean a position primarily involved in staffing the pharmacy.

I don't think precepting, publishing, etc. are exclusively under the purview of pgy2 trained pharmacists. The term "exlusively" is too absolute in this context. Completing a PGY2 should, in theory and if it's a decent program, better prepare a pharmacist for those activities, but that's not to say a pharmacist can't take the initiative to learn how to do those things in other ways besides pursuing a PGY2. The only thing that's truly exclusive about completing a PGY2 is that it qualifies you to take certain specialty board certification exams sooner than you could if you didn't complete a PGY2.

In general, completing a PGY2 makes sense if you want a more structured training experience for a specific specialty, and/or you are interested in pursuing specialty board certification as quickly as possible, which in turn gives you an edge for certain niche job opportunities.

 

[beautifulrobot]

This is still highly dependent on where you live. I'm a relatively recent grad and was told by my professors that I'd need to do a residency for these types of jobs, and yet I was able to work in peds critical care, peds oncology, and now informatics all without a residency. That's just how things are in the SE. The right person who makes the right moves can still move into these specialized positions. That may be changing for new grads though, I really can't say. I'm sure it varies by institution, but we aren't at West coast levels of job requirements yet.

Good point, thanks for the additional perspective. Credentials matter, but aren't the end all be all, and there are definitely other factors at play.

 

[gwarm01]

Good point, thanks for the additional perspective. Credentials matter, but aren't the end all be all, and there are definitely other factors at play.

That being said, I still feel like the winds are change are blowing in that direction. I was able to accomplish what I did by following the tried and true track of getting a hospital internship during school and leveraging that for my first break. I feel like I could do it because I was dealing with older pharmacy managers, people with a BSPharm who didn't see any problem with hiring right out of school. As more and more director positions are filled by young people with a PGY2 in pharmacy administration it will likely become more and more difficult for someone to follow that path.

Those types are a dangerous combination. You've got a PGY2, so you know they are all-in on that system if they put up with that much torture. Then you are also dealing with someone who is relatively inexperienced if they are fresh from residency, so we all have to struggle as they learn the management lessons that no formal education can teach you.

Yeah. Probably for the best to at least get a PGY1 if you are a new grad these days.

 

[farmadiazepine]

No, you are wrong.

First, I don't like pharmacy residencies. I think they are stupid, especially generic PGY1. With that being said, everyone I know who did a PGY2, either in ID, or oncology, or pediatrics, has an amazing job in which they specialize in what they did a PGY2 in. My friend is running ID at a hospital, my other friend running oncology at another hospital. They have great clinical pharmacist jobs in which they follow their patients, make recommendations, teach doctors on how to treat, make policies, etc.