Is it fair?

[turtleboard]

argonx,

I really think you should learn how to write before the all-important personal statement goes in. Re-reading one of your earlier posts, I see how all of us thought you were a "poor white guy."

In any event, your post attacking miglo was filled with generalizations (read: STEREOTYPES) that are associated with Asians. I believe everyone picked up on that.

What "ghetto" do you live in?


Tim of New York City.

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[reed0104]

If anyone thinks asians are just as racially discriminated against as blacks in the U.S., you are nuts. If you think the playing field is level in starting out in life for everybody, I would think a little harder.

Argonx, you didn't offend me, I don't see what everyone is so uptight about, asian or otherwise. "damn fishing boat" Who cares? Why is that so offensive?

It's nice to see Tim is still on top of his game insulting others to make himself feel a little less insecure.

 

[mig2k]

argonx: My point is that allowing someone a seat in medical school not based on ones merits is just simply unfair. I mean think about it, by checking the "URM" box on your application, you automatically get moved ahead of everyone else BASED solely on your race. I dont remember seeing a "URM" box for something like the NBA draft? (now I know I'm stretching my point here) When I apply for a job is there a "URM" box?

It sucks for your ancestors to be brought here by force as you said, but in this time and age you have the opportunity to study hard and do well and compete EQUALLY in terms of merit with everyone else. Whats keeping you from competing with everyone else? Financially? there are tons of AA scholarships and financial aid (which Im totally cool with).

When you came into college, you are on equal footing with everyone else. You should not be advantage when you apply to medical school afterwards. Its not fair.

 

[turtleboard]

Reed,

It is exactly a comment like "damn fishing boat" that, when goes unchecked, opens the flood gates for other comments that are offensive to various groups.

If osteopathic physicians were referred to as "bonesetters," "quacks," or "backcrackers," would you find that offensive? I remember you being one of the more vocal opponents of my posts which apparently were offensive to DOs, and I didn't say anything as remotely outrageous as "damn fishing boat."

It matters not to me whether you think I'm insecure. The fact that you're on my case half the time shows you're a lot more insecure.


Tim of New York City.

 

[reed0104]

Why is "damn fishing boat" so offensive? Maybe I am just not understanding. Please explain.

Tim,
I wouldn't take offense to any of those terms aforementioned in your post, because they are just personal opinions. Besides, backcrackers tend to help a lot of people with pain. I get on your case because you tend to let your ego get the best of you, and your comments should not go "unchecked"

[This message has been edited by reed0104 (edited 02-26-2000).]

 

[turtleboard]

Fair enough.

I won't get into the cultural details of various Asian groups and correlate that with why a comment such as "damn fishing boat" is offensive.

You can email if you choose.

Tim of New York City.

 

[argonx]

Ok look if i offended anyone with the term "fishing boats" i am sorry. But heck my anestors came over in slave ships. I think it
is a much better to come to a place in a banged up over crowded smelly fishing boat looking for a new life and opertunities. Provided it was your choice. Now look I don;t believe that african americans should go back to africa because we are no longer africans. We are americans. Now with medical schools I still believe that all groups with in a population should be given a chance. As was stated earlier once african american students get into medical most do well (90+%). Go figure. So MCATS, and under grad. GPA are not prefigures to success in medical school. I think the present system is good. Many people if they can't get in to the med-schools here can go to the carb. or europe, pass the USMLE and come back.

And miglo I would agree with you if minorites where dropping out of medical in droves because their cred. sucked and they still got in.(due to afirmative action) However that is not what is happening.

 

[Joe]

look Reed
Just because a comment doen't bother you, it doesn't mean that nobody's offended by it.
How would you feel if someone said your school sucks. Now it wouldn't bother me a bit, but I assume it would definitely bother your ego at the very least.
So stop trying to defend something you have no idea about.

 

[Smile]

i think this thread has gone way beyond what it was intended to. the bottom line is that medical programs are trying to increase diversity in the medical profession by recruiting the under-represented minority groups. this is not a bad thing. diversity fosters a greater environment of different peoples and ideas and allows one to be exposed to vast differences in points of view. as this country becomes more and more amalgamated via the "melting pot" concept, the medical profession must ensure it is armed appropriately w/ the different types of doctors (from a cultural standpoint) who can respond effectively to these population changes. what are deemed minorities in the everyday world may not necessarily be minorities in the medical profession. sure, this whole process can be viewed as unfair by many (especially those who feel they were directly affected by the policies) but the truth is that medicine needs to keep up w/ our general population changes. diversity is a wonderful thing. also, if you're dedicated enough and work hard enough, you can get into medical school. there are many options available between US schools (MD and DO) and caribbean schools, and you just have to be smart about how you play the application process. don't try and use this affirmative action policies as an excuse for not getting admission. instead, we should embrace the efforts by medical schools to provide us w/ an environment where we can interact w/ so many different kinds of people.

 

[rufus]

I guess the thing that bothers me the most about the affirmative action "debate" is the seeming presumption that racial difference equals diversity. Not so! I, a white female, grew up in the suburbs with Hispanic, Asian & African-American next-door neighbors. None of us were wealthy but none of us were by any means poor. Our "culture" was that of suburban Americana, with most of us raised in "traditional" families living in a well-to-do school district with ample educational opportunities My point: there is SO much more to creating an atmosphere of diveristy than racial considerations. I cannot see how five white people from disparate socioeconomic backgrounds are inherently less diverse than five people of differing ethnicities from the same neighborhood; to assume so smacks of racial stereotyping to me

 

[Sheon]

rufus,

You make a good point. Diversity extends way beyond race and ethnicity. The race aspect of diversity tends to draw most of the attention because it has been one that this country has a very torrid history with.

 

[wacko]

Just another question of "is it fair?"

This might have nothing to do with you getting into med school, but what do you think of the verdict on Diallo's case?

 

[turtleboard]

Both sides were presented in a court of law. Justice was served by a jury.

Anyone who cries for justice at this point just didn't agree with the verdict, and I think it's silly that some in New York -- always the same few people -- have decided to make this a racial thing.


Tim of New York City.

 

[reed0104]

41 shots to one unarmed, non-criminal, is a lot of "justice". Think of that, 41, say "bang" 41 x's to yourself. Seem like a reasonable amount to disable one person? One in the shoulder would have worked fine.

Those cops were neglegent(sp?) at best, and in my opinion showed depraved indifference for this guy's life.

Joe, just because your offended doesn't mean I have no idea what argonx was referring to. Additionally, it wouldn't hurt my ego if you insulted my school, my race, or even my mom.

[This message has been edited by reed0104 (edited 02-29-2000).]

 

[turtleboard]

You try being a cop in the South Bronx and see how many rounds you'd fire if you thought your life was in danger.

Diallo pulled out a wallet as if it was a gun and made sudden, jerking movements that appeared as if he was gonna open fire. If those were the facts, and I believe that's how they were presented, then I think the cops were justified. Is 41 bullets excessive? I guess it may be, but two lives, both of whom were officers of the law, were at stake. I don't think the officers had time to think of only "disabling" the gun-wielding perpetrator.

Tim of New York City.

 

[Nanon]

I've thought about this subject a lot lately. If I get into med school, it won't be because I'm a 4.0 student with an outstanding MCAT (although it might be an outstanding MCAT - I haven't taken it yet.) I've had almost everything absolutely stacked against me from the moment I entered kindergarden until now. My mom is schizophrenic, which means I grew up on welfare and was tracked into the least demanding classes offered at the schools I went to. I was placed in foster care, I went to 8 different schools before I even got to high school. I ended up quitting highschool in my sophmore year to work and support myself. Even when I went back to com. college, at the ripe ol' age of 25, I was told not to bother with med school, and told not to bother with the UC, etc. I have a learning disability, to make it all that much more complicated.

College has been REALLY hard for me. College is just like any other institution. It tries to serve a large and diverse population, but in the end it best serves those who have had prior experience with the educational model. I have a really decent GPA for what I've had to overcome (3.1), but I will never be a 4.0 student in the sciences. When all is said and done, I'll probably have a 3.3 in the sciences.

Should I be judged by the same criteria as someone who comes from a supportive, middle class family who values education? It's like comparing apples and oranges, but I probably will be, because I'm white. Does this bother me? NO! Why? Because even with everything I've been through, I'm white. That means that I've been given opportunities I wouldn't have been given had I been AA, or MA, or any other racial minority. I can put on a nice suit, get a manicure, walk into any place I want to and no one would be the wiser as to anything I've been through. I will never be pulled over for DWB, I have never lost an apartment because of the color of my skin, nor have I ever been turned down for a job because I didn't "look" right. (An aside - I used to work for a head-hunting company. When I left, I had to interview people to take my job. I chose the most qualified person, who in fact was more qualified than I. It was a black woman. I had to fight my boss and my coworkers, threatening to turn them in for discrimination, to get her hired. I explained the situation to her, and she took the job anyway - good for her! I'm just saying it's out there, folks.)

It would be nice if med schools looked at socieo-economic factors, and I'm sure at some they do. But the issue of race is deeper than even that. There are a whole lot of stereotypes represented in this string -
Boat people, undeserving people, lazy people... But not a one of us has a right to say.

Just another perspective

Nanon

 

[Sheon]

There are a few facts in the Diallo case that disturb me.

1) The officers were in plain clothes. They did not have on police uniforms and they were driving an unmarked vehicle

2) They fired 41 shots

3) They hit Diallo 19 times (the other 22 shots went through walls and doors)

4) The man was standing in the doorway of his home and the officers had no way of knowing who was on the other side of the door

5) The officers were acquitted of any wrong doing

That's a little scary that four men with guns can pull guns and call themselves police officers (even though they don't look like it) and you have to assume they are (i.e., you can't run).

Also, it is scary that they can shoot 41 shots at someone and say that it was justified who were they shooting? The Hulk?

What if he really was a criminal and that wasn't his home?

You can't just shoot 41 shots and say "Well we thought he had a gun." You put more people in danger than he could have if he did have a gun.

For those of you saying "We can play the 'What if...' game all day," they dismissed the charges on a "What if..."

 

[TQL]

Nanon,

You have an outstanding story to tell and it'd help you a lot in the application process. Just make sure that you do well in MCAT. Also, with your situation, I'd look at DO schools because they like non-traditional students. Forget about what is fais, life is not fair, especially medical school admission. Good luck!

 

[ntxawmx]

Nanon:

I just wanted to commend your mature understanding of racial discrimination in the US. Just to further illustrate the privileges conferred upon those who were born with white skin:

A white European woman stayed with an Asian American family as an exchange student. Every them they entered a restaurant, the hostess would approach her and ask "How many?" Even though she spoke very little English and was actually the guest of the fmaily, because she was white, people automatically addressed her. The reality is that no matter how long a person of color has lived in the US, no matter how many generations her family has been here, as long as she is not white, she will be judged based on the color of her skin.

I can't tell you how many times people have said to me, "Oh you speak such good English, with no accent!" Because I am not white, people automatically assume that if I speak English at all, it will be broken and mixed with a heavy accent. When that doesn't turn out to be the case, they feel like they owe me some kind of compliment.

Just a couple more points to think about.

 

[rufus]

ntxawmx, I agree with you that nanon has a matue attitude towards racial discrimination in this country. Unfortunately, it does exist. However, white people are judged by the color of their skin every bit as much as people of color. Nanon's story and your example bear this out. So to say "as long as she is not white, she will be judged based on the color of her skin" seems erroneous to me. We are ALL judged by our skin color; some more so than others and with more negative connotations, admittedly. Is it fair? No. But, IMO, it's unfair for us all, regardless of our skin color.

 

[abc]

Interesting facts Sheon. I agreed with you that 41 shots is way unnecessary. However, I guess being a cop in the Bronx, you have to make a tough call between shooting and being carried away in a bag... Hmm... I think it's a fair trial, given that four of the juries are black, and if there was any racial injustice, it wouldn't pass them... Anyway, I think it's tragedy... a sad accident, not murder. It's fair, but I don't know why I have such uneasy feeling about it... just my two cents!!!

 

[Sheon]

In 1999 under represented minority (URM) admissions to medical school fell to its lowest level since 1991. The 7.4% decrease in URM admissions brings the total number of URM entrants to 1732, a full 290 students lower than the all time record of 2022 set in 1994.

The drop in URM admissions comes on the tails of heated debate and legislation regarding the constitutionality of Affirmative Action programs. The programs came under fire following the passing of California Proposition 209 in 1996. The passing of Proposition 209 has spurred similiar legislation in 11 other states to include liberal strongholds in New York, New Jersey and Ohio. No link between the Affirmative Action legislation and the decrease in URM admission has been established.

The decrease may be of particular concern in light of the fact that it is powered almost exclusively by drop in male (-15.0%) and Native American (-26.4%) students. The decrease comes on the final year of the American Association of Medical Colleges' 3000 X 2000 program which sought to increase URM representation among new medical students to 3000 by the turn of the century.

[This message has been edited by Sheon (edited 03-03-2000).]

 

[Dr. Willabe]

Perhaps it is unfair that minorities may have an advantage at gaining acceptance into medical schools. It's also unfair that we minorities have to deal with the strain of constant insinuation that we don't deserve to go to medical school while non-minorities seem to get the idea that it is their birthright.

I really don't see this as a big issue. I think the real issue is that, as long as minority students are being accepted into medical schools (based on whatever criteria), there will be compliant because this challenges the notion that the non-minority student is more capable and intelligent. My question is, when are you non-minority students going to stop feeling so threatened when you think a Black or other minority student is going to be as successful or more successful than you?

A bit of wisdom: Don't make it a practice to blame your failures on the success of others. The fact that Susy_over_here got in with these grades, and Joe_over_there got in with those grades should be irrelevant in regards to your own success in gaining acceptance into medical school. Besides, this so-called "unfair advantage" has hardly evened out the difference in number between minority and non-minority medical students. Perhaps you'd rather see medical schools, medical centers, hospitals, etc. segregated so that you'd never have to worry about working along side a MINORITY again.

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