Is it Harder For DO's to get Hired in California

[theone1979]

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hey guys

I ran into an old friend today who is in his 3rd year of an EM residency here in NJ (he went to St. George's btw).

Anyhow, I was telling him that I will be attending a DO school this fall and that I am interested in Emergency Medicine. We then got into the cliche discussion of whether he thought there is a greater stigma attached to being a foreign grad or a US DO.

He actually answered that in nearly all cases, you will have a much easier time getting a quality residency, and experience less stigma, as a DO.
However, he stated that a major exception to this is in the state of California. He went on to argue that California (and Texas) are very different than the rest of the US in terms of being accepting of DO's and that DO's still face an uphill battle in California.

I am taking what he said with a grain of salt, but I am curious if there is any truth to what he was saying. If I decide I want to practice in California, might I encounter more resistance than I would in other states?

Thanks.

 

[AvocadoLover]

hey guys

I ran into an old friend today who is in his 3rd year of an EM residency here in NJ (he went to St. George's btw).

Anyhow, I was telling him that I will be attending a DO school this fall and that I am interested in Emergency Medicine. We then got into the cliche discussion of whether he thought there is a greater stigma attached to being a foreign grad or a US DO.

He actually answered that in nearly all cases, you will have a much easier time getting a quality residency, and experience less stigma, as a DO.
However, he stated that a major exception to this is in the state of California. He went on to argue that California (and Texas) are very different than the rest of the US in terms of being accepting of DO's and that DO's still face an uphill battle in California.

I am taking what he said with a grain of salt, but I am curious if there is any truth to what he was saying. If I decide I want to practice in California, might I encounter more resistance than I would in other states?

Thanks.

I can't generalize but I can tell you that there is certainly no negative stigma attached in the ED that I work in. There are 15 docs, 4 DOs, and the department head is a DO. They are currently recruiting and I see an adequate number of DOs being interviewed as well as MDs.

I think your friend may be spreading a myth. Or maybe it is a personal experience of one person he knows?

 

[Sinfest]

This is purely anecdotal, so take it with a grain of salt.

My good friends' father is a very prominent M.D. surgeon at a fairly large hospital in CA. He's well known and respected in the surrounding communities, and has been practicing for almost two decades. Before applying to D.O. schools last year I asked him about job prospects and working in CA as an osteopathic physician. He said that there is still some prejudice (just like anywhere else in the US), but that the overwhelming majority of M.D.'s and D.O.'s get along just fine. He said there should not be that much of a difference, if at all any, when the time comes to find a job.

 

[munchymanRX]

hey guys

I ran into an old friend today who is in his 3rd year of an EM residency here in NJ (he went to St. George's btw).

Anyhow, I was telling him that I will be attending a DO school this fall and that I am interested in Emergency Medicine. We then got into the cliche discussion of whether he thought there is a greater stigma attached to being a foreign grad or a US DO.

He actually answered that in nearly all cases, you will have a much easier time getting a quality residency, and experience less stigma, as a DO.
However, he stated that a major exception to this is in the state of California. He went on to argue that California (and Texas) are very different than the rest of the US in terms of being accepting of DO's and that DO's still face an uphill battle in California.

I am taking what he said with a grain of salt, but I am curious if there is any truth to what he was saying. If I decide I want to practice in California, might I encounter more resistance than I would in other states?

Thanks.

No. I myself know plenty of DOs that practice in california, and my primary physician growing up in the SF bay area was a DO.

'resistance' comes into play depending on what specialty you want, but there its less a function of what degree you have and more the competitiveness of the field across all applicants (MD or DO). California has lots of people applying for its residency slots, so you can expect it to be a little tougher matching in.

Also, you can practice anywhere you damn well want so long as you have a medical degree and a license for that state-and can meet overhead costs in whatever region you decide to adopt as your home. Patients aren't going to care so long as you can demonstrate you're a compassionate, competent physician.

 

[Sinfest]

I also take comfort in the fact that all UC hospitals, USC, LLU, etc. accept D.O.'s for residencies/fellowships. That seems like a pretty good sign of the times we're now in.

 

[Torr]

I also take comfort in the fact that all UC hospitals, USC, LLU, etc. accept D.O.'s for residencies/fellowships. That seems like a pretty good sign of the times we're now in.

Just curious, does anyone know of any UC residencies that are exclusively MD? I've heard this from someone but it was a while back and I forget what the residency was and also what UC it is. I want to say UCSF or UC Davis.

 

[MLT2MT2DO]

Really a Caribbean grad giving a biased statement against D.O.'s.....this is a first.

 

[SFO-IST]

Just curious, does anyone know of any UC residencies that are exclusively MD? I've heard this from someone but it was a while back and I forget what the residency was and also what UC it is. I want to say UCSF or UC Davis.

I shadowed in the UC Davis ER and noticed DO's there.

 

[Slack3r]

Well, there are two DO schools in CA. Western has a pretty solid rep and according to last year's match list, they placed DO's at Cedars, Harbor-UCLA, and USC, to name a few. So I'm thinking someone is blowing smoke up your ass.

 

[JaggerPlate]

I worked at a big, academic, allopathic residency associated ER in undergrad and absolutely loved the chief/head of the ER. The guy was seriously a champ, awesome at what he did, extremely smart, etc. I never really thought about his degree title or anything (everyone called him 'Dr' like every other physician in the hospital), until I had to walk into his office to get something one day and saw a degree from CCOM above his desk.

I think you'll be fine. If you are concerned, my advice would be to do an ACGME EM residency.

 

[tbone0705]

Yea, but it is getting better

 

[budda10000]

hey guys

I ran into an old friend today who is in his 3rd year of an EM residency here in NJ (he went to St. George's btw).

Anyhow, I was telling him that I will be attending a DO school this fall and that I am interested in Emergency Medicine. We then got into the cliche discussion of whether he thought there is a greater stigma attached to being a foreign grad or a US DO.

He actually answered that in nearly all cases, you will have a much easier time getting a quality residency, and experience less stigma, as a DO.
However, he stated that a major exception to this is in the state of California. He went on to argue that California (and Texas) are very different than the rest of the US in terms of being accepting of DO's and that DO's still face an uphill battle in California.

I am taking what he said with a grain of salt, but I am curious if there is any truth to what he was saying. If I decide I want to practice in California, might I encounter more resistance than I would in other states?

Thanks.

Getting a job is not problem, need proof? Look at the faculty of some of our more prestigious institutions. UC Davis Nuerosurg has a senior faculty that is DO, UCSF psych has several DO faculty... Similarly non-academic hospitals really do not care. The trouble comes in landing a residency. So far as I can tell landing a residency in any competitive specialty at UCSF,UCLA, UCSD, and Standford is nearly impossible as a DO. Then again if you were from a lower ranked MD program you would face similar prospects. The thing is a lot of these top tier programs cannibalize their own or accept largely from other elite schools. The only shot you would have at these programs is if you really stand out such as having multiple publications, high boards(250+) ect. Some DO's do slip in but its not a trend. If you are interested in places like UCI, UCD, LLU, UCSF fresno, ect then I would say you have a decent shot. Honestly if you are willing to leave CA for the midwest you can get in some amazing programs like cleveland clinic or Mayo as a DO.

 

[adriano710]

hey guys

I ran into an old friend today who is in his 3rd year of an EM residency here in NJ (he went to St. George's btw).

Anyhow, I was telling him that I will be attending a DO school this fall and that I am interested in Emergency Medicine. We then got into the cliche discussion of whether he thought there is a greater stigma attached to being a foreign grad or a US DO.

He actually answered that in nearly all cases, you will have a much easier time getting a quality residency, and experience less stigma, as a DO.
However, he stated that a major exception to this is in the state of California. He went on to argue that California (and Texas) are very different than the rest of the US in terms of being accepting of DO's and that DO's still face an uphill battle in California.

I am taking what he said with a grain of salt, but I am curious if there is any truth to what he was saying. If I decide I want to practice in California, might I encounter more resistance than I would in other states?

Thanks.

Midwest is the most popular area by far for practicing D.O.'s and even schools

 

[QueenJames]

Your friend is in his 3rd year of residency right? and he came from the Caribbean? So that means he applied for his residency like what 3-4 years ago and passed his steps on the first try and all that...

The game has changed for the caribbean peeps in the last 4-5 years I believe. If anything, It's gonna be harder for those guys to get any residency in a desirable location.

 

[razor]

This was mentioned by budda too, but the real bottleneck of the EM path as a DO is the increasingly competitive residency slots. If you can win a ticket to residency then there will be equal opportunity for jobs MD v DO.

2 reasons you've seen a lot of DOs in the ED: EM hasn't been as competitive in the past and many, many EDs have IM and FP trained physicians working in them which I believe is a downward trend, and maybe going extinct.

 

[Dr. Zombie]

Getting a job is not problem, need proof? Look at the faculty of some of our more prestigious institutions. UC Davis Nuerosurg has a senior faculty that is DO, UCSF psych has several DO faculty... Similarly non-academic hospitals really do not care. The trouble comes in landing a residency. So far as I can tell landing a residency in any competitive specialty at UCSF,UCLA, UCSD, and Standford is nearly impossible as a DO. Then again if you were from a lower ranked MD program you would face similar prospects. The thing is a lot of these top tier programs cannibalize their own or accept largely from other elite schools. The only shot you would have at these programs is if you really stand out such as having multiple publications, high boards(250+) ect. Some DO's do slip in but its not a trend. If you are interested in places like UCI, UCD, LLU, UCSF fresno, ect then I would say you have a decent shot. Honestly if you are willing to leave CA for the midwest you can get in some amazing programs like cleveland clinic or Mayo as a DO.

Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't there some hospitals that won't hire DOs for certain departments? As well as, some private practice groups that also won't hire?

 

[AlteredScale]

I recently read an article that a part of the rationale behind the AOA and ACGME merger was because many of the UC hospital systems were denying any AOA program access into their hospitals for training and also that no OMS's could participate in away electives in those hospitals as well.

Perhaps then that is where the bias against DO's from CA comes from?

Of course I can't find the article and I read it this morning ><

 

[cabinbuilder]

Your "friend" is FOS, move on. There is more work out there than can be filled. I work in TX all the time and have DO friends who work in CA. Not an issue.

 

[costales]

 

[hallowmann]

I recently read an article that a part of the rationale behind the AOA and ACGME merger was because many of the UC hospital systems were denying any AOA program access into their hospitals for training and also that no OMS's could participate in away electives in those hospitals as well.

Perhaps then that is where the bias against DO's from CA comes from?

Of course I can't find the article and I read it this morning ><

I believe that was already resolved before the merger. VSAS now shows that the UC schools are open to DOs, but they give priority to MDs or something. Apparently it took a lawsuit, but ultimately, the UC system is now open for OMSs to rotate at. Apparently one of them, like UC Davis or something still says it doesn't accept DOs, but if you contact the program, they do, but haven't updated their page yet.

That said, there are a bunch of the DO friendly programs at a handful of UC hospitals that accept DOs for residency, but its definitely not all hospitals or all programs, and its still really competitive like most UC programs near the big cities.

As far as job opportunities, I've heard of some hospitals explicitly requiring ABMS certification (sometimes they just mean board certified and other times they actually mean ABMS specifically), but I haven't heard of any explicitly excluding DOs.

 

[AlteredScale]

I believe that was already resolved before the merger. VSAS now shows that the UC schools are open to DOs, but they give priority to MDs or something. Apparently it took a lawsuit, but ultimately, the UC system is now open for OMSs to rotate at. Apparently one of them, like UC Davis or something still says it doesn't accept DOs, but if you contact the program, they do, but haven't updated their page yet.

That said, there are a bunch of the DO friendly programs at a handful of UC hospitals that accept DOs for residency, but its definitely not all hospitals or all programs, and its still really competitive like most UC programs near the big cities.

As far as job opportunities, I've heard of some hospitals explicitly requiring ABIM certification (sometimes they just mean board certified and other times they actually mean ABIM specifically), but I haven't heard of any explicitly excluding DOs.

Ah makes much more sense now. I know at my school (UCSD) their health system allows for away rotations but they have to go through hell to get them approved.

Is ABIM cert only through ACGME?

 

[hallowmann]

...Is ABIM cert only through ACGME?

Yeah, its the MD boards, so you'd have to do an ACGME residency for example. There are just so many MDs, that most places say ABMS, but just mean board certified, but like I said, I have heard of places actually meaning ABIM for IM.

 

[mrh125]

Probably, it's also harder for DOs to get into certain residency programs, even less competitive speciality ones, because it's estimated that up to 20% of residency programs discriminate against DOs. DOs unfortunately still arent viewed as equivalent to MDs and it's made even more unnecessarily difficult due to them having to take twice as many standardized tests, yet being expected to score better than MDs

 

[costales]

Probably, it's also harder for DOs to get into certain residency programs, even less competitive speciality ones, because it's estimated that up to 20% of residency programs discriminate against DOs. DOs unfortunately still arent viewed as equivalent to MDs and it's made even more unnecessarily difficult due to them having to take twice as many standardized tests, yet being expected to score better than MDs

These DO folks are screwed. Why don't you worry about getting yourself into a med school, and quit your useless trolling:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...ke-that-how-hard-is-to-get-into-them.1077789/

 

[mrh125]

These DO folks are screwed. Why don't you worry about getting yourself into a med school, and quit your useless trolling:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...ke-that-how-hard-is-to-get-into-them.1077789/

im not trolling, it's called unfortunate realism, but you're welcome to keep living in your fantasy land lmao. Also good job linking to the elitist land of SDN where the poster arguing with me thinks that if you dont get a 30+ on the mcat you should get used to primary care. you sure showed me /sarcasm. lmfao get real.

 

[hallowmann]

im not trolling, it's called unfortunate realism, but you're welcome to keep living in your fantasy land lmao. Also good job linking to the elitist land of SDN where the poster arguing with me thinks that if you dont get a 30+ on the mcat you should get used to primary care. you sure showed me /sarcasm. lmfao get real.

Yeah, see, but you made this claim that DOs "probably" do have a tougher time getting hired in CA, when you basically have nothing to back that up with. Then you went on to talk about residencies, when everyone and their mother knows that DOs are discriminated against in ACGME residencies, as if that in any way supported your previous "probably". Calm down there.

Also, I skimmed that thread. You may have thought that thread was pure elitist blah blah blah, but those people actually responded with real advice for you, and you came off way too defensive and combative over the whole thing. Again, calm down, and if you can, grow thicker skin. The app cycle can demoralize you more than any internet comments could.

 

[budda10000]

Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't there some hospitals that won't hire DOs for certain departments? As well as, some private practice groups that also won't hire?

Who cares about those places(if they exist), there are many more that don't care. There is not a single academic program in the state that has zero DO's. Some departments might not have any(Like ENT) more due to the rarity of DO's in the field than anything. I have rotated in two different academic hospitals in Socal and there were plenty of DO employees in both.