Is it just me or is cognition and neuropsychology harder than the math in psychology?

[singasongofjoy]

There is virtually no psychosocial analysis in the basic courses.

To illustrate my point, our main litterature is written by two neuroscientists.

Well of course- because you're just in undergrad. You're just learning the basics. You have to spend so much time learning the very basics in undergrad that there is no room or time left over in the class to really integrate them because you're still learning the building blocks. Just like you're not going to be teaching a combined sociopolitical theory and literature class to 2nd graders because first you've got to learn to read fluently and think more flexibly than you can at that developmental stage. If you ever actually manage to make your way to graduate school as you say you plan to, you'll find a lot of your criticisms and blanket statements about the field to be unfounded.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[singasongofjoy]

.

 

[Sanman]

No, if they found physiology relatively difficult compared to the other content, since it fosters natural science knowledge which many of us lack.

Again, faulty premise... How do you know many of us lack a natural science background? I started college as a hard science major prior to changing directions slightly to psychology. I know professors who were engineers and I know some that were English. You are making an assumption about others based on the fact that you are having a hard time, due to your lack of a science background. Personally,i found organic chemistry harder than any of my neuropsych classes. Others felt the opposite.

 

[Sanman]

See now, this is a low effort troll.

It would have been a better troll if he used they're rather than their. Pet peeve.

 

[MCParent]

It's as though the Dunning Kruger curve were made flesh.

 

[smalltownpsych]

It is fascinating to see how a troll evades any attempt to point out false premises or faulty logic and then shifts to attack something like the use of the WAIS or the mathematical abilities of psychologists or the relative intellect of psychologists or the scientific knowledge of psychologists to try and engage in another argument. I guess the challenge is to see how many people reply to a thread and how many people can be annoyed or frustrated. Maybe someone could do a study on that. Naw. Just kidding really because it would be a real waste of valuable resources to find out that adolescent males like to annoy people. We used to just crank call people on the phone or play ding dong ditch 'em back in my day because we didn't have all this newfangled internet stuff.

 

[neurobain]

Why any psychologist in the modern era uses the WAIS intelligence scale for poorly educated individuals is beyond me. It is measuring exactly what their missing - crystalized intelligence. Even the fluid intelligence portion is only meaningful if critical periods in the persons life isn't a factor to take into concideration (which they very well might be, since their poorly educated).

But that is the beauty of demographically adjusted norms

So good job at missing the point.

 

[Justanothergrad]

It is fascinating to see how a troll evades any attempt to point out false premises or faulty logic and then shifts to attack something like the use of the WAIS or the mathematical abilities of psychologists or the relative intellect of psychologists or the scientific knowledge of psychologists to try and engage in another argument. I guess the challenge is to see how many people reply to a thread and how many people can be annoyed or frustrated. Maybe someone could do a study on that. Naw. Just kidding really because it would be a real waste of valuable resources to find out that adolescent males like to annoy people. We used to just crank call people on the phone or play ding dong ditch 'em back in my day because we didn't have all this newfangled internet stuff.

I wish we could just rename the troll threads to something apt like "troll thread" and then, much like the Friday thread, everyone can go in expecting the appropriate level of seriousness.

 

[Prototype123]

It would have been a better troll if he used they're rather than their. Pet peeve.

I know the functional usage of they're.. I have a tendency to write too quickly in my second langauge, once I'm on a roll.

 

[Prototype123]

Again, faulty premise... How do you know many of us lack a natural science background? I started college as a hard science major prior to changing directions slightly to psychology. I know professors who were engineers and I know some that were English. You are making an assumption about others based on the fact that you are having a hard time, due to your lack of a science background. Personally,i found organic chemistry harder than any of my neuropsych classes. Others felt the opposite.

Where else would the non-natural science students reside, if not in the social sciences and humanities?

 

[Sanman]

Where else would the non-natural science students reside, if not in the social sciences and humanities?

In business, nursing, education, social work, religious studies, and any number of other places. In my university, psychology was housed in the natural science dept and a psychobiology degree was offered as an undergraduate major. So again, your norm may not generalize elsewhere. Psychology is part social science and part hard science.

 

[smalltownpsych]

Maybe we can talk about the arbitrary differentiation between natural science verses psychology. Is Jane Goodall who studies chimp behavior a natural scientist or is she some other kind of scientist? I study primate behavior in it's natural environment too.

 

[Sanman]

Maybe we can talk about the arbitrary differentiation between natural science verses psychology. Is Jane Goodall who studies chimp behavior a natural scientist or is she some other kind of scientist? I study primate behavior in it's natural environment too.

The local Starbucks, my favorite venue for observing primates, seems more comfortable than remote jungles for naturalistic observation. Extra points for easy access to a beverage.

 

[Prototype123]

In business, nursing, education, social work, religious studies, and any number of other places. In my university, psychology was housed in the natural science dept and a psychobiology degree was offered as an undergraduate major. So again, your norm may not generalize elsewhere. Psychology is part social science and part hard science.

So when the statistics author for my course litterature relays about math struggling psychology students, how most psychology students are poor at doing math, he is being delusional?

Does that sound like people stemming from the natural sciences?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

N=1's are fraught with misinformation.

 

[smalltownpsych]

So when the statistics author for my course litterature relays about math struggling psychology students, how most psychology students are poor at doing math, he is being delusional?

Does that sound like people stemming from the natural sciences?

Wow! Newsflash, some undergraduate psychology students are not good at math per professor report. This is more useless information. In a related story, physicists and chemists know more math than most clinical psychologists!

 

[psych.meout]

So when the statistics author for my course litterature relays about math struggling psychology students, how most psychology students are poor at doing math, he is being delusional?

Does that sound like people stemming from the natural sciences?

Do you really not see the irony in the author of your statistics text making sweeping generalizations based on personal anecdotes?

 

[Prototype123]

Do you really not see the irony in the author of your statistics text making sweeping generalizations based on personal anecdotes?

If he's been teaching statistics for decades and a trend emerged from the start, I don't think it is.

 

[Prototype123]

Wow! Newsflash, some undergraduate psychology students are not good at math per professor report. This is more useless information. In a related story, physicists and chemists know more math than most clinical psychologists!

You didn't get the point. Physicists and chemists are good at it because they hail from a natural science background. Plus the fact that natural science attracts a superior cognitive talent pool, able to deal with math.

 

[Justanothergrad]

You didn't get the point. Physicists and chemists are good at it because they hail from a natural science background. Plus the fact that natural science attracts a superior cognitive talent pool, able to deal with math.

N=1's are fraught with misinformation.

They certainly are in this thread.

 

[psych.meout]

If he's been teaching statistics for decades and a trend emerged from the start, I don't think it is.

Troll or genuinely obtuse?

Regardless, I don't think you should keep going in psychology if your grasp on methodology and stats is so tenuous, let alone your massive misconceptions about psychological theories and constructs like intelligence and cognitive ability.

 

[ilovedance1]

So when the statistics author for my course litterature relays about math struggling psychology students, how most psychology students are poor at doing math, he is being delusional?

Does that sound like people stemming from the natural sciences?

Why are you generalizing characteristics of the average psychology undergraduate student to the average graduate of a PhD program? They just aren't equivalent. A lot of undergraduate psychology majors go on to careers in sales, administrative positions, marketing, etc. The population of individuals that have an undergraduate degree in psychology is not the same as those that have a graduate degree in psychology. I know a physician that had an undergraduate major in music... does that mean that all musicians have the skills that you need to be successful in medical school? No.

 

[Prototype123]

Why are you generalizing characteristics of the average psychology undergraduate student to the average graduate of a PhD program? They just aren't equivalent

Because he further elucidated the point by referencing a study in which prominent psychology researchers were asked to estimate mathemathical quantities without the aid of their statistics tool, and they fared poorly. Their mathematical instincts were not what one would have expected.

 

[WisNeuro]

Citation please?

 

[Justanothergrad]

If you ask me to conduct an EFA by hand, I'm going to have more difficulty as I haven't done that much matrix algebra in a very long time. Who knew, if you don't do something for a while it's more difficult.

Better call Science and publish that bad boy of a finding pretty quick before someone scoops it.

 

[smalltownpsych]

Because he further elucidated the point by referencing a study in which prominent psychology researchers were asked to estimate mathemathical quantities without the aid of their statistics tool, and they fared poorly. Their mathematical instincts were not what one would have expected.

Mathematical instincts? What is the operational definition of that and how do you measure it reliably and is it a valid construct in any way?

 

[psych.meout]

Because he further elucidated the point by referencing a study in which prominent psychology researchers were asked to estimate mathemathical quantities without the aid of their statistics tool, and they fared poorly. Their mathematical instincts were not what one would have expected.

Again, this is you have conceptual difficulties with psychology. What is meant by "psychology researchers?" What level(s) of education do they have? Which branches of psychology do they practice (e.g. clinical vs. counseling vs. social vs. cognitive vs. developmental)? What is meant by "estimating mathematical quantities?" How do these estimations relate to the kinds of math used by "psychology researchers?" What is meant by "mathematical instincts?" What were these "expectations" of their "mathematical instincts" and how were they not met? Was there a comparison group or standard used? Was this a statistically significant result and what were the effect sizes?

Let's take what you've written here at face value without the benefit of the actual study to which you are alluding to answer these and other questions. What are the conclusions we could draw simply from your summation of this study? Yes, we could interpret it as that "psychology researchers" don't have the "expected mathematical instincts," but what are other conclusions we could draw and what are some limitations of it? Could these results be more indicative of reliance on technology (e.g. SPSS and calculators) than measures of achievement and aptitude? Are these estimations of "mathematical quantities" ecologically valid to the kinds of math they've actually been trained in to do their jobs? I'm pretty sure most people other than mathematicians and maybe some physicists would fare poorly at some of the more specialized or esoteric forms of math.

Mathematical instincts? What is the operational definition of that and how do you measure it reliably and is it a valid construct in any way?

And what are population parameters like? Was the data analyzed with respect to level of education and other variables? There are so many unanswered questions and suspect details of what they posted about this supposed study.

 

[Prototype123]

The study is referenced in Statistics for Psychology, by Arthur Aaron et al

I will have to dig through the chapters to find it. But I will, if you insist.

 

[Ollie123]

Is the question we're now debating whether psychologists are worse at math than mathematicians? I don't doubt that for a second, but have no idea what it has to do with anything.

That is a fundamentally different question than whether the average psychology student lacks the (ambiguously operationalized) "natural science" background to succeed in bio/physio psych courses. Or whether Prototype's school should not make him take physiological psych because he is a genius philosopher who is much smarter than all those psychology folks, psychology is a "social science" and shouldn't involve icky things like ion channels and taking it has caused him to feel badly about himself because he is struggling in a class that all us dumb-dumb psychologists thought was easy (......what I suspect this thread is really about).

Why is this thread still open?

 

[smalltownpsych]

Is the question we're now debating whether psychologists are worse at math than mathematicians? I don't doubt that for a second, but have no idea what it has to do with anything.

That is a fundamentally different question than whether the average psychology student lacks the (ambiguously operationalized) "natural science" background to succeed in bio/physio psych courses. Or whether Prototype's school should not make him take physiological psych because he is a genius philosopher who is much smarter than all those psychology folks, psychology is a "social science" and shouldn't involve icky things like ion channels and taking it has caused him to feel badly about himself because he is struggling in a class that all us dumb-dumb psychologists thought was easy (......what I suspect this thread is really about).

Why is this thread still open?

https://forums.studentdoctor.net/th...u-during-convos.1238773/page-55#post-18776736
This thread went on for 55 pages. This one has a long way to go.
I don't think he will ever be able to accomplish the goal of angering anyone on this thread though. It's not like any of the people on this board have experience or training dealing with interpersonal conflict and difficult people. My 4:00 was marriage therapy and they didn't show so I have plenty of patience and tolerance for being poked fun at. Heck, you should hear my brother make fun of psychologists. This ain't nuthin'

 

[Prototype123]

Is the question we're now debating whether psychologists are worse at math than mathematicians? I don't doubt that for a second, but have no idea what it has to do with anything.

I don't know where you got that from. The debate was if psychologists tend to come from a natural science background or not. My contention is that they don't and that it reflects in their math profiles alone, because math weakies don't gravitate towards the natural sciences.

 

[Prototype123]

May I call your attention to the fact that it's autism awareness week, and I'm an elite autist, that is to say an asperger. I think you should show some compassion for my debilities. Debilities that most likely led to the phones and computers you're all writing on.

 

[Prototype123]

https://forums.studentdoctor.net/th...u-during-convos.1238773/page-55#post-18776736
This thread went on for 55 pages. This one has a long way to go.
I don't think he will ever be able to accomplish the goal of angering anyone on this thread though. It's not like any of the people on this board have experience or training dealing with interpersonal conflict and difficult people. My 4:00 was marriage therapy and they didn't show so I have plenty of patience and tolerance for being poked fun at. Heck, you should hear my brother make fun of psychologists. This ain't nuthin'

I'm not poking fun at you. Just stating the facts. But keep dreaming that the natural sciences concider y*all equals. They don't.

 

[Sanman]

May I call your attention to the fact that it's autism awareness week, and I'm an elite autist, that is to say an asperger. I think you should show some compassion for my debilities. Debilities that most likely led to the phones and computers you're all writing on.

Wait, so you are even "elite" among members of the autism community? This gets better and better. Please point me to the definition of an "elite autist" as I am unfamiliar with this term.

 

[Sanman]

I'm not poking fun at you. Just stating the facts. But keep dreaming that the natural sciences concider y*all equals. They don't.

That's fine I have doctorates in psychology and parapsychology (The un-natural science!). My colleagues can look down on me if they want. However, when Gozer the Gozerian comes to town, Who you gonna call?

- P. Venkman, PhD

P.S. - It's spelled "consider"

 

[Prototype123]

Wait, so you are even "elite" among members of the autism community? This gets better and better. Please point me to the definition of an "elite autist" as I am unfamiliar with this term.

Aspergers syndrome (ICD-10). Alternatively Aspergers' disorder (DSM-5)

 

[singasongofjoy]

Aspergers syndrome (ICD-10). Alternatively Aspergers' disorder (DSM-5)

Still doesn't define "elite." That's an incredibly subjective term.

 

[psych.meout]

May I call your attention to the fact that it's autism awareness week, and I'm an elite autist, that is to say an asperger. I think you should show some compassion for my debilities. Debilities that most likely led to the phones and computers you're all writing on.

I would take that over the beta who'm she just befriended on Facebook. Grrrr...

Why, yes, you are quite the alpha male.

 

[Sanman]

Aspergers syndrome (ICD-10). Alternatively Aspergers' disorder (DSM-5)

I am very familiar with Asperger's syndrome. I asked you to define the term "Elite Autist" and show me where in the literature that is used in reference to Asperger's syndrome.

 

[Prototype123]

I am very familiar with Asperger's syndrome. I asked you to define the term "Elite Autist" and show me where in the literature that is used in reference to Asperger's syndrome.

I never claimed that it was used in any litterature. It's an informal term denoting the aspergers communites view of themselves in relation to other autistics.

 

[psych.meout]

I am very familiar with Asperger's syndrome. I asked you to define the term "Elite Autist" and show me where in the literature that is used in reference to Asperger's syndrome.

C'mon, you know what he's talking about! Alan Turing was an elite autist. Tim Berners-Lee is an elite autist. Steve Jobs was an elite autist.

 

[Prototype123]

C'mon, you know what he's talking about! Alan Turing was an elite autist. Tim Berners-Lee is an elite autist. Steve Jobs was an elite autist.

I never claimed all inventive geniuses were elite autists. The greatest of them all, Isaac Newton, was most probably one, though.

 

[psych.meout]

I never claimed all inventive geniuses were elite autists. The greatest of them all, Isaac Newton, was most probably one, though.

Ooh, how fun! What other historical figures can we diagnose with various mental health maladies without ever having met or spoken with them? I think that Napoleon guy might have been a bit full of himself. And that Hitler guy was a bit of a jerk.

 

[Prototype123]

Ooh, how fun! What other historical figures can we diagnose with various mental health maladies without ever having met or spoken with them? I think that Napoleon guy might have been a bit full of himself. And that Hitler guy was a bit of a jerk.

"I'm 100% convinced Newton had Aspergers syndrome"

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Mod Note: This thread appears to have run its course in terms of constructive discourse and is being closed.