Is it normal for applicants to significantly exaggerate their work/activity hours?

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My pep band EC I wasn't keeping track of, as I wasn't officially premed at that time. So I guessed by using the average length of an NCAA basketball game and using the number of games I attended.
 
It may seem ridiculous, but the people weren't just embellishing hours. They were embellishing details and roles that they played in those activities.
That's ridiculous. For the sake of discussion, there's certainly a threshold for hours you'll actually experience very diverse stuff for. Of course if you have only 30 hours and you say 300 hours, you're gonna be caught dead in your tracks. But if someone legitimately did 200 hours and they say 400 or 500...I don't really think they stand to get caught at all.
 
Yes, it isn't unusual. I didn't do this because I'm not extremely close family friends with any physicians (and because I'm honest) but I personally know two people who used their connections to exaggerate their shadowing by hundreds of hours.

An adcom is welcome to chime in but I suspect that for certain activities there becomes a point of diminishing returns in regards to more hours. How much do you think an adcom really cares if you've shadowed 100 vs 300 hours? At some point, you have more or less garnered, in theory, what they were hoping to see and doing more of it may be beneficial for you personally but likely not for gaining an acceptance. (This would apply to other activities as well, but I think shadowing in particular)
 
The first person who was 1000% honest on their app feel free to speak up.

With the exception of the under guesstimate on my application for round 4 for shadowing (the two days, not like it makes much of a difference when you have over 400 hours ), the other previous rounds (1-3) were completely honest although if anything the hours were lower for a few of them which in all fairness, the number was higher than AMCAS would allow.
 
With the exception of the under guesstimate on my application for round 4 for shadowing (the two days, not like it makes much of a difference when you have over 400 hours ), the other previous rounds (1-3) were completely honest although if anything the hours were lower for a few of them which in all fairness, the number was higher than AMCAS would allow.

My definition of honesty extends to what you write on the secondaries. No one is 100% honest on their intentions about every school
 
My definition of honesty extends to what you write on the secondaries. No one is 100% honest on their intentions about every school

Agreed. 100% honest on primary, including not rounding any experience hours.

Secondaries...well, let's just say my goal is to make every school think it's my top choice without explicitly lying...
 
My definition of honesty extends to what you write on the secondaries. No one is 100% honest on their intentions about every school

Oy vey, good thing you're not talking about job resumes. Those are even worse, especially with "objective statements." I'm sorry, my goal in life isn't to use SQL to maximize the efficiency of a company's blah blah blah...

I don't think I've ever met anyone that was trying to make money in order to make a living. Somehow, making a wage or salary is a sweet bonus to doing your life's passion. 😉

Now if only people were honest on secondaries. Oh how horribly would that go...
 
Sorry 100% honest on those too. Not everyone is a pathological liar.

My honesty is why I haven't gotten into medical school yet and why I am on round 4.

Time to give in yo (as in embellish). Like I said, many people have realized being 100% honest is noble and all, but not really compatible with a high stakes situation where most people aren't shy about their accomplishments
 
Time to give in yo (as in embellish). Like I said, many people have realized being 100% honest is noble and all, but not really compatible with a high stakes situation where most people aren't shy about their accomplishments

Problem is, I don't know what I could embellish even if I wanted to do so. 😉

I've done an obscene amount of work at very high levels, which puts many people on SDN to shame. Never or rarely gunned for the positions, but then I am a non-trad with many eons of experience behind me so I naturally get the opportunities.
 
Oy vey, good thing you're not talking about job resumes. Those are even worse, especially with "objective statements." I'm sorry, my goal in life isn't to use SQL to maximize the efficiency of a company's blah blah blah...

I don't think I've ever met anyone that was trying to make money in order to make a living. Somehow, making a wage or salary is a sweet bonus to doing your life's passion. 😉

Now if only people were honest on secondaries. Oh how horribly would that go...
That would be so awesome... "Why do you want to attend the University of Medicine?"

"Because you give out MD degrees, duh"
 
That would be so awesome... "Why do you want to attend the University of Medicine?"

"Because you give out MD degrees, duh"

I was looking at the older secondaries of schools I was considering adding. I removed a school mostly because I realized I could not convincingly argue why I would go there over any other school to which I was applying. Campus, mission, curriculum, location...nothing 😎
 
ECs are pointless and valueless if they aren't properly investigated. A person that lies about their hours is a person that will be able to make up some story when asked about their activity. And this same person making it into med school will grow into a physician that lies to patients in order to make it to his or her weekly poker night. It just seems like AMCAS hasn't taken into account the severity. Now I think a few hours is one thing to make the numbers easier (ADCOMs won't care if you researched for 999 hours instead of 1000 hours), but honesty is the most important trait a physician should have with his or her patients.
 
The first person who was 1000% honest on their app feel free to speak up.
I'm with @familyaerospace, on my primary I can absolutely say with 100% certainty that I was as truthful as possible and made every effort to accurately represent hours where the number was unknown. I didn't exaggerate my experiences, I didn't misrepresent my motivation; My motivations for medicine really are legitimate and true, and I don't find it hard to believe that's the case for many other applicants as well. I haven't submitted secondaries yet, but for all the school-specific ones I'm prewriting, I'm not putting anything dishonest in there. I'm not going to tell a school they're my top choice in a secondary (I don't even have a top choice at the moment), and I've chosen the schools I have because there are legitimate things I like about these schools; that's what I'm putting in the essays, not exaggeration about my "intentions" toward the schools or anything like that.
 
ECs are pointless and valueless if they aren't properly investigated. A person that lies about their hours is a person that will be able to make up some story when asked about their activity. And this same person making it into med school will grow into a physician that lies to patients in order to make it to his or her weekly poker night. It just seems like AMCAS hasn't taken into account the severity. Now I think a few hours is one thing to make the numbers easier (ADCOMs won't care if you researched for 999 hours instead of 1000 hours), but honesty is the most important trait a physician should have with his or her patients.

If you, or anyone, seriously believe that lying on (any) application makes someone an inherently bad person who will put people's lives at risk, you are either extremely naive about life or full of crap. This black and white mentality is, in some cases, worse than lying on an application.

Also the point of ECs is not to catch the applicant in a lie, but to determine if he or she has the sufficient experience and competence to enter the medical field.
 
We all lie, every day, every one. Not lying, ever, would mean you have an intellectual disability. "Do I look good in this dress?" for example, should be answered with a white lie. A professional setting is essentially a big dance of lies all day. There are degrees of lies, too. Lying about saving a village in Haiti is different from rounding 289 hours volunteering to 300 hours. Here is a really interested TED talk on lying:

http://www.ted.com/talks/pamela_meyer_how_to_spot_a_liar
 
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Sorry 100% honest on those too. Not everyone is a pathological liar.

My honesty is why I haven't gotten into medical school yet and why I am on round 4.

There can be honesty to a fault. ADCOM's and employers recognize this. The fact that you refer to people who can't claim they were 100% on their secondaries as "pathological liars" shows a black/white mentality that most ADCOM's would find a little bit naive.
 
We all lie, every day, every one. Not lying, ever, would mean you have an intellectual disability. "Do I look good in this dress?" for example, should be answered with a white lie. A professional setting is essentially a big dance of lies all day. There are degrees of lies, too. Lying about saving a village in Haiti is different from rounding 289 hours volunteering to 300 hours. Here is a really interested TED talk on lying:

http://www.ted.com/talks/pamela_meyer_how_to_spot_a_liar
There can be honesty to a fault. ADCOM's and employers recognize this. The fact that you refer to people who can't claim they were 100% on their secondaries as "pathological liars" shows a black/white mentality that most ADCOM's would find a little bit naive.

The poster implied no one was honest and people were lying about everything. I'm actually an honest individual with above average intelligence (evidenced by my Mensa card).

Personally, I feel you cannot speak to employers unless you've been the person hiring and firing. As someone who has been in that position for over 10 years, I find honesty refreshing. If I find out someone has lied to me to get the job, they are fired, no questions asked. If they lie to me or a client on the job and I find out about it, they are fired no questions asked.

I was also on adcomms for a while in grad school, if I find out an applicant lied, they did not get my support, I mentioned it to the committee who frowned upon that sort of thing and we made it very clear that we rejected them for lying.
 
The poster implied no one was honest and people were lying about everything. I'm actually an honest individual with above average intelligence (evidenced by my Mensa card).

Personally, I feel you cannot speak to employers unless you've been the person hiring and firing. As someone who has been in that position for over 10 years, I find honesty refreshing. If I find out someone has lied to me to get the job, they are fired, no questions asked. If they lie to me or a client on the job and I find out about it, they are fired no questions asked.

I was also on adcomms for a while in grad school, if I find out an applicant lied, they did not get my support, I mentioned it to the committee who frowned upon that sort of thing and we made it very clear that we rejected them for lying.

I have hired employees. One potential applicant told me he wanted the job solely to break into government service. Was this the truth? Probably. Did I really want to hear it? No. Applicant was not hired. That's what I mean about honesty.
 
I have hired employees. One potential applicant told me he wanted the job solely to break into government service. Was this the truth? Probably. Did I really want to hear it? No. Applicant was not hired. That's what I mean about honesty.

Like I have in the past, I would have given them bonus points for honesty. I've hired people to help them get experience. I just assume they are going to leave within a year, but I at least know this upfront.

If I didn't hire them myself (which would have assumed everything else lined up), I would have given them advice and put them in contact with people I know who would be able to help them get a job doing exactly what they want. I've even done it in the interview.

Lie to me though and you are pretty much doomed.
 
If you, or anyone, seriously believe that lying on (any) application makes someone an inherently bad person who will put people's lives at risk, you are either extremely naive about life or full of crap. This black and white mentality is, in some cases, worse than lying on an application.

Also the point of ECs is not to catch the applicant in a lie, but to determine if he or she has the sufficient experience and competence to enter the medical field.

Exactly. And, generally, it becomes obvious if people haven't actually had these experiences or didn't take them seriously when you have the chance to ask them for details.

I get people getting upset about dishonesty in the process, and obviously it shouldn't happen, but at the same time it's the sort of thing that brings unnecessary stress and isn't worth worrying about. In absolutely zero cases is anyone going to be accepted because they had 200 hours more of whatever experience over someone else. You'll impress people by making it clear that you took something away from an experience and can talk about it in a way that is meaningful. With that in mind, it becomes somewhat irrelevant how many hours you spend in an activity - the number will be different for everyone based on their maturity level, their ability to reflect on their experiences, and the quality of the experience. This is a point lost on many people who simply think doing the most of everything is how you win med school admissions.


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I don't think it's okay to add 30 hours just for the sake of rounding; it's still dishonest. I have odd number hours on my app (e.g. 41 hours) but saw no reason to misrepresent them. Be a responsible, adult individual and keep track of your involvement in things like shadowing and volunteering where the exact number of hours may be easily recorded, and then tell the truth. This isn't hard.

As was the case with @familyaerospace, there was only one spot on my application where I had no way of knowing the exact number of hours, so I estimated and put a number that, while large, is most definitely not greater than the actual (unknown) number. For instances like that the hours clearly matter less than the length of involvement.
Honestly I think the non-rounded numbers look better. If I see too many numbers ending in 0's and 5's I tend to think they are made up, or at least somewhat inaccurate. When you can't know the number it's understandable, but if you should easily be able to find that out, it just looks like you rounded up to make yourself look better.
 
I have hired employees. One potential applicant told me he wanted the job solely to break into government service. Was this the truth? Probably. Did I really want to hear it? No. Applicant was not hired. That's what I mean about honesty.

I've always wanted to be on the hiring end of a job interview, or volunteer for the ADCOM committee at my school. As for jobs, I'm guessing if you ask a job applicant why they want work there and they say: "In order to make money so I can make a living." I'm assuming they would ge rejected. Sad.
 
Exactly. And, generally, it becomes obvious if people haven't actually had these experiences or didn't take them seriously when you have the chance to ask them for details.

I get people getting upset about dishonesty in the process, and obviously it shouldn't happen, but at the same time it's the sort of thing that brings unnecessary stress and isn't worth worrying about. In absolutely zero cases is anyone going to be accepted because they had 200 hours more of whatever experience over someone else. You'll impress people by making it clear that you took something away from an experience and can talk about it in a way that is meaningful. With that in mind, it becomes somewhat irrelevant how many hours you spend in an activity - the number will be different for everyone based on their maturity level, their ability to reflect on their experiences, and the quality of the experience. This is a point lost on many people who simply think doing the most of everything is how you win med school admissions.


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Actually, I heard that some of the service-focused schools have crazy minimums for volunteer hours. I think it's either Colorado or Utah? This puts a lot of pressure on applicants to exaggerate hours.
 
I've always wanted to be on the hiring end of a job interview, or volunteer for the ADCOM committee at my school. As for jobs, I'm guessing if you ask a job applicant why they want work there and they say: "In order to make money so I can make a living." I'm assuming they would ge rejected. Sad.
The problem is that response doesn't tell the interviewer anything. You're not independently wealthy and looking to have the job for funsies? Shocker! Why are you applying to this position though? The question isn't a literal means-to-an-end question, it's a chance for the applicant to articulate why they should get the job.
 
I've always wanted to be on the hiring end of a job interview, or volunteer for the ADCOM committee at my school. As for jobs, I'm guessing if you ask a job applicant why they want work there and they say: "In order to make money so I can make a living." I'm assuming they would ge rejected. Sad.

No you don't want to be on either of those positions. Trust me, you don't.

These jobs are the reason I have a low tolerance for BS and are the exact reasons that I do my applications the way I do. I want there to be as few questions as possible.
 
What if your numbers don't match the volunteering office's. I keep track of all my hours if it is not done electronically where I can see them. For weeks, someone else with my first name was on the schedule so I had to write in my name despite telling them over and over I wasn't on it. I don't want to not get credit for hours I worked.
 
I doubt it will be a problem. If there happens to be a discrepancy and it happens to get noticed you will likely get asked about it and you can then explain the situation.
 
What if your numbers don't match the volunteering office's. I keep track of all my hours if it is not done electronically where I can see them. For weeks, someone else with my first name was on the schedule so I had to write in my name despite telling them over and over I wasn't on it. I don't want to not get credit for hours I worked.

Did you mention this to the volunteer office?

Seeing as it is not uncommon for people to drastically increase their activity hours, I doubt ADCOMs really check in anyway.
 
It is hard to remember all the hours accumulated over 7 years. I calculated an average number of hours per week over that time span. Then I subtracted a large portion just to be safe I wasn't over estimating.
Pretty much exactly what I did. If I knew an exact number, I put the exact number. If I was estimating time over several years, I tried to use conservative estimates and then round down just to be safe.

I wanted to be certain I could easily defend every single number I put down.
 
I actually caught a stupid mistake I made for volunteer work at a local hospital. Instead of putting 490 hours, I somehow put 1,490 hours. AMCAS won't let me fix it. I'm not really sure what to do at this point. Contact medical schools I applied to and look dishonest, or go with the flow?
 
I made a good-faith estimate, then rounded down (nearest 5 or 10; I forget) out of paranoia that I was going to get in trouble for embellishing. Guess that was a bit naive, lol.
 
Why don't schools just screen for GPA and MCAT again?

Because with only stats to go by, only the highest MCAT scores and GPAs will get into medical school. The system has gone too far in one direction though. It's fixable though. Like I said, more oversight would go a long way. It's ironic how you're treated like a criminal at the MCAT, but ECs are based on the honor system.
 
Clearly your only option is to volunteer an additional 1000 hours.
Let's be real here. Can't tell if you're joking or not. 1,000 hours volunteering is unlikely for someone who goes to class and works full-time. I'd need to complete 62 hours per week to have 1,000 hours completed by the end of the year.
 
One interview I had this past cycle (not verbatim):

"You left medicine to do something not related to medicine? You don't look motivated to be a physician."

"I left my scribe after 1000 hours of experience. I was a human typewriter, and I learned a lot, but there wasn't anymore growth there. I would like to do more thinking and less mechanical work. Now I'm doing a more technical side of medicine."

"There's nothing in medicine that's technical." <-- this is verbatim!

"So, if I wanted to find out more about your school, what would you say?"

"Why is this relevant? Do not avoid the question."

"I'm answering it, can you humor me?"

"This is not my job, go onto the school's website."

"That's my point, a website, which is hosted on a server, and used by future and current physicians to-"

"Do not try to confuse me with technical words like server. If you do not want to answer the question, we'll just move on."

"Dr. X, I'm sorry. I'm trying to say technology is more entwined with doctors nowadays, and I got to help create the software a practice in NYC not only uses to make appointments, but to do virtual sessions with their patients!"

"What about people who do not have technology? Would you let them die?"

The interview did not get better. It was one of two interviews, and the second went better, but I got rejected after.

Lesson: lie, lie, and lie again. Medical schools do not want the truth. If I had said I am a medical website designer or some BS title instead of my actual title, I wouldn't have been destroyed at that interview.
 
One interview I had this past cycle (not verbatim):

"You left medicine to do something not related to medicine? You don't look motivated to be a physician."

"I left my scribe after 1000 hours of experience. I was a human typewriter, and I learned a lot, but there wasn't anymore growth there. I would like to do more thinking and less mechanical work. Now I'm doing a more technical side of medicine."

"There's nothing in medicine that's technical." <-- this is verbatim!

"So, if I wanted to find out more about your school, what would you say?"

"Why is this relevant? Do not avoid the question."

"I'm answering it, can you humor me?"

"This is not my job, go onto the school's website."

"That's my point, a website, which is hosted on a server, and used by future and current physicians to-"

"Do not try to confuse me with technical words like server. If you do not want to answer the question, we'll just move on."

"Dr. X, I'm sorry. I'm trying to say technology is more entwined with doctors nowadays, and I got to help create the software a practice in NYC not only uses to make appointments, but to do virtual sessions with their patients!"

"What about people who do not have technology? Would you let them die?"

The interview did not get better. It was one of two interviews, and the second went better, but I got rejected after.

Lesson: lie, lie, and lie again. Medical schools do not want the truth. If I had said I am a medical website designer or some BS title instead of my actual title, I wouldn't have been destroyed at that interview.
No offense to the person, but they seem a bit disturbed.
 
Did you mention this to the volunteer office?

Seeing as it is not uncommon for people to drastically increase their activity hours, I doubt ADCOMs really check in anyway.
Yes, I did. But nonetheless my ID was taken because I wasn't a "current volunteer". I'll ask them about how many hours I have and see if it matches up.
 
No offense to the person, but they seem a bit disturbed.
I think she didn't like me from the get-go, though why, I have no clue. She never smiled, and she only asked negative questions: "You don't" "You fail to demonstrate" etc etc
 
Let's be real here. Can't tell if you're joking or not. 1,000 hours volunteering is unlikely for someone who goes to class and works full-time. I'd need to complete 62 hours per week to have 1,000 hours completed by the end of the year.
I was joking.
I think I need to quit the internet until they make a sarcasm font.
Seriously though, it sucks that they wont let you change that.
 
I actually caught a stupid mistake I made for volunteer work at a local hospital. Instead of putting 490 hours, I somehow put 1,490 hours. AMCAS won't let me fix it. I'm not really sure what to do at this point. Contact medical schools I applied to and look dishonest, or go with the flow?

Did you actually contact AMCAS and they told you they won't fix it?
 
Fess up everyone. I want to know if my truthful hours stand a chance.

I was absolutely truthful. You have to list contacts for these things, and I listed mentors who know me and trust me. I can imagine that med school admissions reps do call in sometimes to check, and if you lie, your contacts are probably going to sever from you. Not worth it in my book.
 
I am sorry.

Can you say they were expected future hours?
At this point, that's what I might have to say. I probably won't address it though unless they specifically ask about my volunteer work. It just sucks because it makes me look dishonest. They could easily call the volunteer coordinator and see the discrepancy. This whole thing issue just makes the whole interview process even more stressful and worrisome.

I'll continue volunteering, but there's no way I can complete those many hours in time. I can't believe I overlooked such a big mistake.
 
At this point, that's what I might have to say. I probably won't address it though unless they specifically ask about my volunteer work. It just sucks because it makes me look dishonest. They could easily call the volunteer coordinator and see the discrepancy. This whole thing issue just makes the whole interview process even more stressful and worrisome.

I'll continue volunteering, but there's no way I can complete those many hours in time. I can't believe I overlooked such a big mistake.

Well at least now you know it is there and while I hope you don't have to apply next round, if you do, you know to keep an eye out.
 
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