Is it possible to be a female surgeon and still have/raise a family?

[ndi_amaka]

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I've come across a few female surgeons in my college career and the majority of them have opted to not have children. Their marriages also seem to be a lot shakier to me. Although they seem happy with their decision and love their careers, I can't help but think what it must be like to be 60 and not have anyone to pass things on to.

Anyway, I want to have a big family (at least 4 kids). Is it a feasible option?

 

[VienneseWaltz]

Check out MomMD.com . They have entire forums on this topic. The short answer is yes, but it will involve a lot of sacrifices in other areas.

 

[VienneseWaltz]

Also, read A Woman in a Surgeon's Body by Joan Cassell. She's an anthropologist whose culture of interest is surgery. It's kind of scary, though. But I don't think things will be as bad when we are ready for residency.

 

[lotanna]

Originally posted by ndi_amaka
I've come across a few female surgeons in my college career and the majority of them have opted to not have children. Their marriages also seem to be a lot shakier to me. Although they seem happy with their decision and love their careers, I can't help but think what it must be like to be 60 and not have anyone to pass things on to.

Anyway, I want to have a big family (at least 4 kids). Is it a feasible option?

I know an oncologic surgeon (at least i think thats her title, she's a cancer tumor surgeon 😛 ), and she is happily married with 1 child. In situations like this, the husband has to be vERY understanding, and very supportive of his wife and her career. I'm really looking at going into surgery, but after havin shadowed a neurosurgeon, I really doubt if I can do it, and still do the other things I want to in life 🙂

 

[Blitzkrieg]

From the female surgeons I have known, it's damn near impossible....married or single mothers......One important thing that is often looked over..As you become a successful woman surgeon, if you aren't married by the time you're on your way up, you will have a helluva time getting married when you're out of residency. I know far too many single, successful, and attractive 40 yr old female docs....Their eligible pool of men is so tiny.....and those men are usually going for other women. Keep that in mind.

 

[CG-RN-MD2B]

Depends on what kind of surgeon you want to be. If you want general surgery, you're gonna have a tough time balancing. However, if you want to do lasik surgery or cosmetics or something else like that, you can have a wonderful family life (and make MUCH more money).

 

[pillowhead]

Originally posted by Blitzkrieg
From the female surgeons I have known, it's damn near impossible....married or single mothers......One important thing that is often looked over..As you become a successful woman surgeon, if you aren't married by the time you're on your way up, you will have a helluva time getting married when you're out of residency. I know far too many single, successful, and attractive 40 yr old female docs....Their eligible pool of men is so tiny.....and those men are usually going for other women. Keep that in mind.

Yes, but from what I've gathered Blitzkreig, your views tend to be more conservative when it comes to gender. (Correct me if I'm wrong.) I agree that it could be harder for a woman to get married once she's done with residency because it's well known that as a woman's education goes up, her chances of marriage go down. (Not one of my female professors in college was married.) But if you are married to an understanding husband, I think it's totally possible. Instead of the wife sacrificing her career for her husband, it just has to be the other way around. I for one could not marry a man who had such ego/masculinity problems that he couldn't even CONSIDER earning less than his wife or taking time off from work so he she could advance her career. The bottom line is though, that women have to physically have the babies even if their husbands become the primary caregivers. So I think it's definitely going to be difficult, but not impossible. remember too that you'll be earning a lot of money to afford a part time nanny and help around the house with cleaning, etc.

 

[Mike59]

Even though its great to have career goals and to want a family life, think about the kids for a moment. What kind of upbringing will they have when their mother is on call and working long hours at the hospital? Developmentally and emotionally, there has to be a lot of strain on the children whether or not the husband is "extremely supportive".

It's my view that if a woman wants to be a physician and have kids, its better for everyone (and society in the aggregate) if she works in a low-call specialty where she can be a full-time mother, and if need be, part-time doc.

BUT, that's just my $.02 😉

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Yes, but from what I've gathered Blitzkreig, your views tend to be more conservative when it comes to gender. (Correct me if I'm wrong.)

They are, but that doesn't really come into play here; All things conservative, a woman would have an *easier* time getting married; It's a matter of her eligible pool of men going for the younger, hotter types instead of the older, more mature types. Plus, I get this from woman docs I know...and not all of them are surgeons.

I agree that it could be harder for a woman to get married once she's done with residency because it's well known that as a woman's education goes up, her chances of marriage go down. (Not one of my female professors in college was married.) But if you are married to an understanding husband, I think it's totally possible.

Oh ya..and understanding husband..but if you aren't married, and trying to find a man that will understand, then don't get your hopes up. Plus, to be "understanding", I imagine the man would want to be relegated to the role of "house-husband", or, y'all would put your kids in major daycare roles..which really isn't "raising" one's fam.

Instead of the wife sacrificing her career for her husband, it just has to be the other way around. I for one could not marry a man who had such ego/masculinity problems that he couldn't even CONSIDER earning less than his wife or taking time off from work so he she could advance her career.

I know..if you have a house-hubbie, then it will work. Those are quite hard to find.

The bottom line is though, that women have to physically have the babies even if their husbands become the primary caregivers. So I think it's definitely going to be difficult, but not impossible. remember too that you'll be earning a lot of money to afford a part time nanny and help around the house with cleaning, etc.

Right...it will be very hard, and I said near impossible, but not totally impossible. Plus, I know of a woman opthomalogist that works few hours, and has time for her fam, while her hubbie works. It is very hard to do......I just wanted to throw out the fact about the woman having a harder time of finding a man the better educated she gets..I think it's important that some people realise that before they jump into their career.....

 

[VienneseWaltz]

Originally posted by Mike59
Even though its great to have career goals and to want a family life, think about the kids for a moment. What kind of upbringing will they have when their mother is on call and working long hours at the hospital? Developmentally and emotionally, there has to be a lot of strain on the children whether or not the husband is "extremely supportive".

It's my view that if a woman wants to be a physician and have kids, its better for everyone (and society in the aggregate) if she works in a low-call specialty where she can be a full-time mother, and if need be, part-time doc.

BUT, that's just my $.02 😉

Yeah, let the men at least keep SOME specialties for themselves ... I would argue that it's better for society to have more women in fields like surgery. Men can stay home with kids--it doesn't have to be the mom.

On some level, I agree with you that parents should think about what life will be like for the kids, but I am told over and over that kids are incredibly adaptable and it doesn't bother them as much as we fear. Kids of surgeons tend to be very proud of their parents--they understand the importance of the job.

 

[pillowhead]

Originally posted by Mike59
Even though its great to have career goals and to want a family life, think about the kids for a moment. What kind of upbringing will they have when their mother is on call and working long hours at the hospital? Developmentally and emotionally, there has to be a lot of strain on the children whether or not the husband is "extremely supportive".

It's my view that if a woman wants to be a physician and have kids, its better for everyone (and society in the aggregate) if she works in a low-call specialty where she can be a full-time mother, and if need be, part-time doc.

BUT, that's just my $.02 😉

Replace the word mother for father. Why is it okay for the father to be on call all the time and work really long hours at the hospital but not for the mother? Are fathers really only money providers and not responsible for the emotional development of their children? And what's so wrong with the father being relegated to the role of househusband? It happens to wives all the time. Maybe you would have a problem with staying at home and earning less than your wife. But many men don't.

 

[IlianaSedai]

Sure it's feasible! Definitely do not let it discourage you from considering surgery, especially as it's a few years from now and you don't really know where you'll be.

The idea that being a surgeon makes you so busy you won't find a husband is bull****. Plenty of older people are single and sad about it without being in surgery. Better for the love of your life to like you and appreciate you as a surgeon, than to do something you like less so you can attract someone half-decent. 🙄

As a wife/mom-of-two/neurosurgeon once said to our anatomy class... It's not the quantity of time you spend with your family, it's the quality that counts. Some women are stay-at-home moms and what do their kids do? Watch television and play video games all day. And the neurosurgeon who works long hours can come home and spend two or three dedicated hours with the family-- how many parents do you know who <B>completely dedicate</B> as much as two or three <B>full hours</B> a day to spend with their children? I don't mean time when they're watching the evening news or sitting in the living room each to their own. I mean <I>dedicated time</I>. Depending on the person, you <I>can</I> just get a good amount of <U>dedicated</U> time to spend with your family if you make it your top priority. That means for that time, you put away all of the "you" stuff-- bills, magazines, romance novels-- and do <I>nothing</I> but spend that time <I>together</I>.

 

[DrMom]

Originally posted by pillowhead
Replace the word mother for father. Why is it okay for the father to be on call all the time and work really long hours at the hospital but not for the mother? Are fathers really only money providers and not responsible for the emotional development of their children? And what's so wrong with the father being relegated to the role of househusband? It happens to wives all the time. Maybe you would have a problem with staying at home and earning less than your wife. But many men don't.

The thing is that mothers and fathers are different, whether you like it or not. In general, moms' interactions/relationship with their kids is different from that of the dads. Also, moms tend to feel differently about leaving their kids than dads do.

No, its not great to have fathers gone all of the time, either. I don't believe that anyone is saying that, although it is, unfortunatley, more "socially-acceptable" for men to work long hours and spend less time at home. I think that trend is slowly changing, with many fathers choosing to spend more time with their families.

 

[shamthis]

Everybody, please dismount from the highhorse.

Okay. Good.

Now, lets recall the question posed: is it possible for a woman to be a surgeon and raise a family?

The answer is yes. Although it might be difficult, and damn sure tougher in a surgical specialty than something less time consuming.

Is it possible for man?

The answer, once again, is yes. And again, it might be difficult, and damn sure tougher in a surgical specialty than something less time consuming.

Let's not forget the inherent equity of both genders when it comes to professional capacities. The questions surrounds the basic dilemma of whether or not you plan to raise a family traditionally or not. The woman who seeks the traditional family setting must make sacrifices if she yearns to be a surgeon.

OK. Feel free to hop back on the horses. Thanks

Hope that helps.

Sham 'My friend's a feminist so it's cool' This

 

[Mike59]

Originally posted by pillowhead
Replace the word mother for father. Why is it okay for the father to be on call all the time and work really long hours at the hospital but not for the mother? Are fathers really only money providers and not responsible for the emotional development of their children? And what's so wrong with the father being relegated to the role of househusband? It happens to wives all the time. Maybe you would have a problem with staying at home and earning less than your wife. But many men don't.

Call me crazy, but, biologically, females in most species are equipped emotionally and physically to be caregivers, more so than their male counterparts. Yes, humans have altered this child-mother relationship as society evolved- and that's great 🙂 . It's just my belief that the mothers play a more important role in the upbringing of children. For that reason, I wouldn't want my kids to grow up without a full-time mom. (Simply stated, with two equally dedicated and responsible parents, I feel a mother is inherently a better parent.)

Do I have a problem with a woman making more than me? No.
I'm all for more women in specialty fields of medicine and equality in the workplace. All I am doing is advocating what I believe is best for the children (developmentally and emotionally).

 

[::Seabass::]

Originally posted by Mike59
Even though its great to have career goals and to want a family life, think about the kids for a moment. What kind of upbringing will they have when their mother is on call and working long hours at the hospital? Developmentally and emotionally, there has to be a lot of strain on the children whether or not the husband is "extremely supportive".

It's my view that if a woman wants to be a physician and have kids, its better for everyone (and society in the aggregate) if she works in a low-call specialty where she can be a full-time mother, and if need be, part-time doc.

BUT, that's just my $.02 😉

whoaaa!!!

as the daughter of a pretty successful ID doc, I have to disagree here. my mom is the greatest person in the world and I have so much respect for her and how hard she works. she has shown her love to me for her job and the joy it brings her. she didn't want to have kids at all. now I'm the oldest of 6. her schedule is not as busy as it used to be, but when I was younger she was very busy. she never stops and has so much love and support for us. you make your schedule work if you want to. I don't worry about if I will have the ability to be a good "mommy" one bit.

I do however worry sometimes about Blitz's point about finding a mate, but what can you do. I'm not going to pick a field that will allow me to meet more men. how lame is that?

 

[lotanna]

Point being, the man has to be understanding, and know what ur getting into. Best to find a man before residency, one who isnt too full of himself, isnt on some gender trip or a chauvanist

 

[DrMom]

Originally posted by seaworthc
you make your schedule work if you want to.

This is a key. You have to make it work...and something has to give. As you said, your mom's schedule is not as busy as it used to be. She has made choices that allow her to have some balance between kids and career. There's always some trade-off, you just have to decide where the line is.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Originally posted by Mike59
Call me crazy, but, biologically, females in most species are equipped emotionally and physically to be caregivers, more so than their male counterparts. Yes, humans have altered this child-mother relationship as society evolved- and that's great 🙂 . It's just my belief that the mothers play a more important role in the upbringing of children. For that reason, I wouldn't want my kids to grow up without a full-time mom. (Simply stated, with two equally dedicated and responsible parents, I feel a mother is inherently a better parent.)

Do I have a problem with a woman making more than me? No.
I'm all for more women in specialty fields of medicine and equality in the workplace. All I am doing is advocating what I believe is best for the children (developmentally and emotionally).

I think that Mike's position about women taking specilaties with lower call shows prudence, but as a wise philosopher once said "different strokes for different folks". Personally, I want my wife to be a full-time mother and help-meet to me in my career path.....Does this mean everyone has to do it this way or else their kids will end up screwy? No...I was raised by a single mother who worked many jobs. However, do I think it's prudent and the best way to go? Yes, or else I wouldn't think that way. However, everyone has their own opinion on what is best for their children and home-life...

 

[lotanna]

Originally posted by Mike59
Call me crazy, but, biologically, females in most species are equipped emotionally and physically to be caregivers, more so than their male counterparts. Yes, humans have altered this child-mother relationship as society evolved- and that's great 🙂 . It's just my belief that the mothers play a more important role in the upbringing of children. For that reason, I wouldn't want my kids to grow up without a full-time mom. (Simply stated, with two equally dedicated and responsible parents, I feel a mother is inherently a better parent.)

Do I have a problem with a woman making more than me? No.
I'm all for more women in specialty fields of medicine and equality in the workplace. All I am doing is advocating what I believe is best for the children (developmentally and emotionally).

Fulltime mom= just saty at home 24/7?
😕

It is doable, my cousin is an OB/GYN married to an Anesthesiologist, and they both fix their schedule so they can have enough time for themselves together, take trips and all, and also spend time with their lil ones.
When you get to that point in life, you CAN make your schedule work, as long as u realize your career isnt the only thing going for u in ur life!!!

 

[IlianaSedai]

Sure it's feasible! Definitely do not let it discourage you from considering surgery, especially as it's a few years from now and you don't really know where you'll be.

The idea that being a surgeon makes you so busy you won't find a husband is bull****. Plenty of older people are single and sad about it without being in surgery. Better for the love of your life to like you and appreciate you as a surgeon, than to do something you like less so you can attract someone half-decent. 🙄

As a wife/mom-of-two/neurosurgeon once said to our anatomy class... It's not the quantity of time you spend with your family, it's the quality that counts. Some women are stay-at-home moms and what do their kids do? Watch television and play video games all day. And the neurosurgeon who works long hours can come home and spend two or three dedicated hours with the family-- how many parents do you know who <B>completely dedicate</B> as much as two or three <B>full hours</B> a day to spend with their children? I don't mean time when they're watching the evening news or sitting in the living room each to their own. I mean <I>dedicated time</I>. Depending on the person, you <I>can</I> just get a good amount of <U>dedicated</U> time to spend with your family if you make it your top priority. That means for that time, you put away all of the "you" stuff-- bills, magazines, romance novels-- and do <I>nothing</I> but spend that time <I>together</I>.

To the thread initiator and other girls I encourage you, if you're interested in surgery, to keep it in mind and to keep thinking about surgery. A couple of the guys who posted above say they don't like the idea of women in surgery, and that most guys wouldn't "tolerate" such. If you're hoping to get married and have children, I wouldn't want to marry a guy who has the gall to tell women, "You'll have trouble finding a husband!" It just means you can let those types self-eliminate, leaving you the actual nice, smart, and secure types to choose from. 😉

I met someone wonderful, and we hope to be engaged or married somewhere during my med school years. I haven't chosen a specialty yet. Surgery isn't out of the picture, but there are a few other things in there as well. When it's time, I'll probably have it narrowed to a couple of choices and ask him what he thinks. We'll have to make some choices, but the key is that with a significant other, <B>you make the choices together</B>. If I want to do something like surgery, I think he'll probably encourage me because he's darn proud of me. But the point is, these are choices you make together. If by the end of med school you aren't married or anything like that (most people aren't, and it's okay-- most also <U>will</U> meet someone anyway), don't make your medical specialty choices for someone who doesn't exist in your life. Do what you want to. It's only when you're together that you make choices together-- if you're not married or engaged, you make your choices alone or with whomever matters to you (i.e. mom and dad, family you may have an obligation to, etc). If a guy comes into your life later-- <I>then</I> you start making decisions together. Don't start giving up your dreams and choices for someone who doesn't exist.

 

[wack]

Why would someone want a lot of children? Does the world need more people? Does the world need more people like *you*? Is having kids just a basic instinct like thirst or hunger? Personally, I want my genes to end with me I don't think they should go on. Its ok anyway I am sure my brother and sister have sent some to the next generation. I am not bashing I am asking a sincere question. I have tried many times to understand this dillema with logic. Maybe logic isn't applicable. Having kids just doesn't make much sense to me. Sure they are cute but isn't bringing a life into the world just because it is cute kind of self-centered? Just some basic questions.

Back to the original question. Can it be done? Yes! Will it involve sacrifice? Yes! It depends on individual attitudes of the women and the children. If you can't find a husband you can always use an alternative method (donors). Of course then you would have to hire a lot of help. You have to do what works for you. I wish you luck.

 

[H0mersimps0n]

Originally posted by DrMom
The thing is that mothers and fathers are different, whether you like it or not. In general, moms' interactions/relationship with their kids is different from that of the dads. Also, moms tend to feel differently about leaving their kids than dads do.

No, its not great to have fathers gone all of the time, either. I don't believe that anyone is saying that, although it is, unfortunatley, more "socially-acceptable" for men to work long hours and spend less time at home. I think that trend is slowly changing, with many fathers choosing to spend more time with their families.

Very much agreed...

It doesn't take a Psych major to figure out that males and females offer different things to the development of their children. While both man and woman are capable of raising a child on their own:

all I have to say is take a look at today's society as more and more men raise children... we're not exactly on an utopian track

point: men can do it, woman are better, if your career is that important to you make the decision as a couple to do the world a favor and not contribute to overpopulation...

On the other hand, I guess it can't hurt to try and have your cake and eat it to, and probably comes down to the individual not some forum full of hearsay and speculation.

Food for thought: whats the point of having someone to "pass stuff onto" if that someone is nothing like you because you were never around, may as well help out a bum on the street.

IMO- $.02

 

[DrMom]

Originally posted by lotanna
Fulltime mom= just saty at home 24/7?
😕

Not necesarily. I was a full time mom until my daughter was almost (2nd grade). I was home when she was home during the day, but I worked and went to grad school some evenings/weekends while my husband was home. Once she started school I worked when she was there & was home with her after school.

I know of some physicians who are mothers who keep similar schedules.

 

[pathdr2b]

Originally posted by IlianaSedai
The idea that being a surgeon makes you so busy you won't find a husband is bull.
I mean <I>dedicated time</I>. Depending on the person, you <I>can</I> just get a good amount of <U>dedicated</U> time to spend with your family if you make it your top priority

Amen Sista"!!!

I did graduate school with a an ill parent, a baby, and a husband!
Once you find your pattern of how to balance things smoothly, everything goes just fine. Were there days when I just wanted to have time to myself? Sure, but soon you get used to the idea of making your 30 minute bath your "time to yourself" compelte with candles, bubbles, and soft music. I do have to admit that my husband often complained about not getting enough................., but that's another story!

On the other hand, I'm planning on a career in Pathology because I like research, I like the reseidency hours, and quite frankly they have very little if any "call". I think it's a good "family friendly" choice.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Originally posted by wack
Why would someone want a lot of children? Does the world need more people? Does the world need more people like *you*? Is having kids just a basic instinct like thirst or hunger? Personally, I want my genes to end with me I don't think they should go on. Its ok anyway I am sure my brother and sister have sent some to the next generation. I am not bashing I am asking a sincere question. I have tried many times to understand this dillema with logic. Maybe logic isn't applicable. Having kids just doesn't make much sense to me. Sure they are cute but isn't bringing a life into the world just because it is cute kind of self-centered? Just some basic questions.

LOL...that's just wack.

 

[Mike59]

Originally posted by pathdr2b
I do have to admit that my husband often complained about not getting enough................., but that's another story!

It's easy for you to laugh that off, but that's a serious issue, and probably one of the biggest underlying problems in American society (but that's another thread for another forum)😛

 

[pathdr2b]

Originally posted by Mike59
It's easy for you to laugh that off, but that's a serious issue, and probably one of the biggest underlying problems in American society (but that's another thread for another forum)😛

Excuse me but a man could have sex EVERYDAY and still complain about not getting enough. That is until they reach "viagra" age!!!

On another note, what I'd like to understand is if a woman or man wants a traditional family why go to medical school in the first place? As far back as I can remember women in my family have ALWAYS worked (sometimes for free thanks to slavery) but they also always had careers. Balancing the two was never the huge issue it seems to be today although women, and in particular minority women, have many more career options. I think that if I wanted to be a "stay at home mom" I would have stoped my education at the undergraduate stage and married a very well to do man. Now let the flaming begin...............................

 

[lotanna]

Originally posted by Mike59
It's easy for you to laugh that off, but that's a serious issue, and probably one of the biggest underlying problems in American society (but that's another thread for another forum)😛

 

[shamthis]

Originally posted by pathdr2b
As far back as I can remember women in my family have ALWAYS worked (sometimes for free thanks to slavery) but they also always had careers.

Give me a break

 

[IlianaSedai]

Ha. The women in my family always worked too. Whether digging on a farm or in a corporate office. I came out none the worse for it. 😀

 

[Saluki]

My aunt is a dentist with two kids... The two kids turned out fine, their marriage is good, but she says if she had it to do over again, she would have only worked a few mornings a week instead of working full time. I don't want to completely stop work when I start having kids, but I think I'll want to work part time. In a specialty like pediatrics that's a lot easier than in surgery, since surgery is still such a male dominated field, but you probably could do it....

 

[manicmaven]

Shamthis and pillowhead are right on re: this thread.

My blood quietly boils when I'm asked how I'll raise a family or when I'll have time seeing as though I'm already in my later 20's and starting med school. My male counterparts aren't asked.

Mothers and fathers are crucial. One does not outweigh the other. If I choose to have a family, I'll work as hard as I've worked to accomplish my dream of being an MD to make my children's lives full of love and support. I'd expect that my partner would do the same.

We don't ask the pre-med men we know how they'll balance being a great doctor and a great father. Maybe we should.

 

[Saluki]

Originally posted by manicmaven
Shamthis and pillowhead are right on re: this thread.

My blood quietly boils when I'm asked how I'll raise a family or when I'll have time seeing as though I'm already in my later 20's and starting med school. My male counterparts aren't asked.

Mothers and fathers are crucial. One does not outweigh the other. If I choose to have a family, I'll work as hard as I've worked to accomplish my dream of being an MD to make my children's lives full of love and support. I'd expect that my partner would do the same.

We don't ask the pre-med men we know how they'll balance being a great doctor and a great father. Maybe we should.

I know I'm old fashioned, but the role of the woman and the man are different in both marriage and the raising of children. Also, women only have a certain biological time period during which they can have children, so that's why people probably ask you and not your male counterparts. I'm not saying that the role of a father is less important, but it is different... the bond created by that time in the womb creates a special bond and women were designed to be the primary caretakers as an earlier poster said. I'm not saying that a house husband is wrong, but I don't think it's the ideal...

 

[manicmaven]

What a shame then for the adoptive parents and single fathers everywhere. It's just too bad they can't be great parents because they lack these important bonds and roles.

If my clock has run out, then I'll adopt. There are many ways to be a parent, and any of them can be ideal if you dedicate yourself to the child.

 

[Saluki]

I'm in favor adoption too. Three of my cousins are adopted from Korea, and I love them so much. I'm just saying that the mother/child bond is different than the father/child bond. I'm not saying that the child has to be your biological child, but I was trying to explain why as rude as it is people ask women when they're planning on having a family. It's not sexist... it's just the way things are...

 

[VienneseWaltz]

Originally posted by mashce
It's not sexist... it's just the way things are...

I'm so glad my mother's and grandmothers' generations didn't settle for that ...

 

[manicmaven]

I know what you're saying. I was just being super sarcastic because I work in a hospital and daily get this question from almost everyone when they find out I'm going to med school in august.

I hope that 'the way things are' changes soon. With the influx of women into medical schools and slowly into some of the more time consuming specialties, the prevailing attitude will shift. I'd like to see a woman's worth be measured by her relationships and accomplishments, and have her not be regarded as 'incomplete' or somewhat of a failure/disappointment if she chooses not to have children, or chooses to work while her partner remains in the home with the child.

I agree with the the previous poster's comment about quality time vs. quantity. I look forward to being a great doctor, and if I choose to have children, a great mother.

 

[ShortStuff]

I feel the need to chime in here also. As the daughter of two full time attorneys I think that people don't realize that women can be exceptional mothers even if they aren't home 24/7. My mom worked some long hours but I think I had a great childhood and a very supportive family.

Welcome to the world fella's its going to happen.

 

[Joe Joe on da Radio]

you can do it, put your back into it.

 

[HouseHead]

Historically, there is only one short period of time when women in anything but the highest classes of society didn't work after becoming mothers. That has period began after WWII and still continues, somewhat, to this day. However, even during that period, it was mostly only middle- and upper-class mothers who even had the option to be SAHMs. Being primary caregivers did/does not mean that women didn't/don't have to work.

Of course, being a primary caregiver and primary breadwinner can conflict in terms of hours. That is obvious when you look at how hard most single parents have it, especially if they don't make a lot of money and don't have other family around to help out.

Being almost 30 and considering a surgical specialty, I realize that there is a HUGE chunk of time when I'll likely have little control over my hours. Because I believe that the earliest years are the most import for a child developmentally, I think having a child in the 1st or 2nd year of med school would be best for me (support for non-trads thus is a deciding factor in which school I choose), so that I can spend some time with them before they start school themselves.

That said, I do not plan to be the primary caregiver. My s.o. is VERY supportive of my career goals, put me through undergrad, and plans to be that fabled househusband. Because he's in IT, the hope is that he can still work a little from home, but that's secondary. I also think he'll be a better parent than I will. I don't have the patience to spend hours on end alone with my kids as the typical supposedly SAHM does (with the help of Valium maybe! 😱 ). I would go totally bonkers without school or a career. My s.o. has that patience, and is much more enthusiastic about filling that role than I am.

I don't think I could handle pregnancy and nursing during a surgical residency. Unless you've been pregnant, it's hard to know how bad your "morning" sickness or any of the other aspects of pregnancy might be for you, even during the best of circumstances. With that in mind, I think it is wise for the aspiring female surgeon with a mind towards family to consider having kids before residency or wait until afterwards (lucky for you younger students who can easily consider that option). So, although family and surgery aren't mutually exclusive, timing is likely to be important.

Great thread, btw.

 

[pillowhead]

To whoever said women are the ones who have to give labor and breastfeed...well, I'll give you the first one for sure. But a guy I work with just had to rush out of work when he found out his wife was in labor with their twins and is having to take off six weeks to help his wife and nurture his newborn sons. And who the hell says you have to breastfeed? I was breastfed for a exactly one day after I was born...my mom had enough of that real fast...and I turned out fine (in my own opinion of course).


I just think it's sad how many men and women are saying that mothers are basically more important in the lives of their children than fathers. A close male friend from work is single handedly raising his daughters...his ex-wife, who was convicted for child negligence and was deemed an unfit mother, now wants custody and this guy is having to fight the courts who think mothers will always make better parents because "women are just more nurturing." Yeah, well at one time, women were just more stupid and that's why they weren't allowed into institutions of higher education...all that work would fatigue their little minds.

Mothers and fathers are equally important in raising a child. Now my dad comes from a culture where men are likely to sit around with other men drinking tea and bouncing babies on their laps because being a father is such a source of pride to them. I wish some American men could be more like this and not be so self-degrading...they are just as important in their child's lives as the mothers.

 

[shamthis]

Pillowhead,

You are correct that men and women are capable of raising children. Both man and woman contributes to the psychology of offspring; that's the proverbial "nurture" component of "nurture v nature".

For what it's worth, I majored in Animal Behavior at Cornell, and I'd like to believe I learned a good bit about what controls and contorts the chemical reaction that is animal life. And as much as you'd like to believe that we're all autonomous, spiritual demi-gods, we're not. We're only animals, and we have a purpose to serve. Stop trying to prove your worth and accept that we're all ingredients in a heavenly Pyrex earth reaction, all of us predetermined to accomplish unique goals. Not goals like medicine or law, goals like propagation of genes. Think of genes as replicators; our bodies are vehicles for replicators and move and decide things based on what will maximize the chances of our replicators' persistence through time.

And men and women have evolved with different physical and psychological components, designed respectively to boost the probability that the genetic framework lasts another generation. With me still?

Good. Becuase the point I'm trying to make is men and women are inherently different. Though we are equal in terms of accomplishing superficial things like getting into med school, we are not equal in child rearing. The goal of man is spread his seed- his replicators are not costly and he has not HISTORICALLY expended considerable energy in raising a child. The machinery for reproduction comes with a cost for women, and thats why youare choosier, that's why you look different, that's why you're more prone to cry. Whether you like it or not, this is true and shows true even in our lives: guys are animals. But so are women. Think about it.

Try not to question the essence of humanity- There's no fixed formula that says you'll be a superior or lesser doc than I. However, youre slated to be the superior caregiver. All this might sound ignorant to you because you've been brainwashed by the excessive political correctness that is so much a part of present-day America.

End of discussion
Sham

 

[VienneseWaltz]

Oh, boy, I love it when someone who posts an argument full of holes says something like, "end of discussion" ...

I agree with you that there might be natural tendencies for men and women to suceed in different and complementary roles, and certainly, men and women ARE different. But these differences are not carved in stone and they are not boundaries on societal roles. The idea that a woman will be a good mother simply because she is a woman is ludicrous. The argument that a man cannot be as good a caregiver as a woman has no more validity than the argument that a woman cannot be as good a doctor as a man. Emotional equipment is important in BOTH capacities, so spare me the argument that men lack some special emotional skill that enables women to be good mothers.

What makes us different from other animals is our ability to adapt and change our roles to meet our desires.

 

[shamthis]

Bottom line: men and women have a tendency to gravitate towards different and complementary roles.

And men have wee-wees.

Truce.
Sham "Call me Swiss Cheese 'cus I'm full o' holes" This

 

[lola]

blitzkrieg & mike59,
why do you want your wives to be full-time mothers? would you want them to be even if they wanted to work part-time or full-time? most women these days don't want to be full-time moms.

 

[pathdr2b]

Originally posted by shamthis
Give me a break

Are facts a problem for you?🙄

 

[tBw]

oh my god 😱 I had avoided reading this thread because I *knew* it was going to be bad, but I just had NO idea it was going to be this messed up...

 

[lola]

Originally posted by the boy wonder
oh my god 😱 I had avoided reading this thread because I *knew* it was going to be bad, but I just had NO idea it was going to be this messed up...

see what i mean!

 

[gwyn779]

I don't think anyone's saying that any man picked off the street would be a choice caregiver for children, but if the guy _wants_ to take on that role, then why can't he be as good as a woman who does? I have definitely known men who are much more nurturing than some women I know, so the "we're only animals" is crap. We can _think_ about our roles, which animals can't.

I want to have a family, but I want to have a full-time career as a doctor. My fiance understands this and completely supports me. He has absolutely no problem with me making more money than him. He is also totally willing to stay at home with the kids most of time. He's a paramedic, so he tends to work 2 days a week.

As a side note for HouseHead, I know of at least two women in my medical school who were pregnant during medical school. More than once. So that's certainly possible. Of course, I know a lot more guys who are currently building up their family. Since I'll only be 28 or so when I finish residency, I plan to wait until then, but really, I've seen it work however you want it to work.