Is it possible to see CSF movement?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

Old brain

Senior Member
7+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2004
Messages
214
Reaction score
0
Is it possible to see CSF movement?

what is the best way to see it?

can it be seen with (fMRI)?

sonagram? (can this see through the bones of the skull?)

Can the movement of CSF be seen during a yawn? are there any machines that can capture motion of csf during the short timespan of a yawn?

I have a theory, and if possible I would like to someday see it in action. What would be the best machine(s) for the job (non invasive)

To see my theory that yawning cleans the brain check out the topic here...

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?threadid=101241

the link to my theory is on the first page.
 
Yes, there are MRI flow studies (not fMRI which only works for oxygen flow to the brain parenchyma). However, doing so with the movement of yawning would be very difficult and have lots of artifact which would render the results inaccurate.
 
Absolutely. These techniques have been around for years.

CSF motion was initially measured in 1966 during myelography and pneumoencephalography. In 1974, videodensity measurements during pantopaque myelography were used. A number of MRI techniques have been used, mostly cardiac-gated, GRE techniques in this day and age. Different techniques included measuring degree of signal loss in the flow void that's adjusted so that flow causes maximal dephasing, measuring the velocity density of CSF flow versus phase of the cardiac cycle, bolus tracking techniques, use of saturation pulses, and spatial modulation of magnetization.

The most widely used current MRI technique used is called phase-contrast MRI, in which a velocity encoded phase map of an area is produced. The velocity of CSF flow can be easily calculated. There are 3 ways of doing it: 1. prospectively gated-interleaved, 2. retrospectively gated-interleaved and 3. retrospectively gated-zero flow assumption. You can generate cine-movies of CSF flow based on these techniques and sub-second CSF movement can be detected.

There are generally two types of CSF motion. One is the fast to-and-fro motion that we see during each cardiac cycle and the other is the slow overall flow down the aqueduct. The technique has been used to assess flow dynamics in CSF shunts, post endoscopic ventriculostomies, and areas of CSF flow obstruction by various etiologies. We have routinely used this technique for years to assess CSF flow in patients with Chiari I (To shunt or not to shunt, that is the question-same goes for surgery), although there is still some controversy.

Your hypothesis can be tested (though the head should not move during yawning to do measurements) by phase contrast techniques, but having seen many of these studies, I suspect it is wrong because CSF is never "cleared" in the sense that you are referring to by transient changes in pressure(if I have understood what you mean). The result of increased intrathoracic pressure (during valsalva) or intracranial pressure (during cardiac cycle) on CSF is temporary and whatever leaves (to-motion) by these fluctuations in pressure comes back in less than a second (fro-motion).

And just as Whisker Barrel Cortex noted, fMRI (it's current implementations) is not relevant. Neither of the two current techniques, ASL (measures blood flow) and BOLD (measures oxygen utilization in tissue) are suitable for testing your hypothesis.
 
Thank you both

They don't still use pneumoencephalography do they?

Very interesting you've given me much to think about
like what would be the best area to map?
The methods of calculating csf flow velocity are new to me
that they exist is reassuring. I'll try to learn more about phase-contrast MRI It sounds promising.

I notice you mention the motion of the bulk flow and the motion of cardiac pulsations, but isn't there a third motion rythme? Have you noticed a respiratory pulsation/flow ?

To the shunt or not to shunt controversy, there is an operation for Chiari 1 that enlarges the foramen magnum by removing a crescent shape from the occipital bone, thus relieving the pressure on the cns.

If I ever test it by that method I'll be looking for those to and fro fluctuations in pressure in the respiratory rythm. Do you have any idea oh how much it would cost to generate cine-movies of CSF flow say a 20 second movie?
 
Originally posted by Docxter
(if I have understood what you mean). The result of increased intrathoracic pressure (during valsalva) or intracranial pressure (during cardiac cycle) on CSF is temporary and whatever leaves (to-motion) by these fluctuations in pressure comes back in less than a second (fro-motion).


I call Valsalva the opposite of yawning.

While yawning opens the Nolman valve,
Valsalva closes the Nolman valve.

This can be easily seen by the movement of the hyoid bone.

When the Nolman valve is "closed" the hyoid bone is in its topmost position (as in Valsalva)
This closes the articulation of the temporals and the occipital, which in turn narrow the foramina or foramen along the articulations.

Yawning does the opposite, it opens the Nolman valve.
The hyoid bone moves down to its lowest position.
This causes the muscles to pull downward on the styloid processes of the temporal bones opening the articulation and the foramen located along the temporal bones and the occipital bone.

I would say the foramen which are found mostly along articulations are key players involved with intracranial pressure.

A slight movement of the skull bones can change the pressure.
 
Originally posted by Old brain
Thank you both

They don't still use pneumoencephalography do they?


No.

Very interesting you've given me much to think about
like what would be the best area to map?


The aqueduct.

I notice you mention the motion of the bulk flow and the motion of cardiac pulsations, but isn't there a third motion rythme? Have you noticed a respiratory pulsation/flow ?

The effect of respiratory movements on CSF flow are known. Read about Queckenstedt test.

To the shunt or not to shunt controversy, there is an operation for Chiari 1 that enlarges the foramen magnum by removing a crescent shape from the occipital bone, thus relieving the pressure on the cns.

:laugh: Yes, I am aware of that. It's called suboccipital craniectomy. Many symptomatic people need a shunt anyway, regardless of the surgery.

If I ever test it by that method I'll be looking for those to and fro fluctuations in pressure in the respiratory rythm. Do you have any idea oh how much it would cost to generate cine-movies of CSF flow say a 20 second movie?
:laugh:

The same as an MRI examination of the brain.
 
Originally posted by Old brain
I call Valsalva the opposite of yawning.

While yawning opens the Nolman valve,
Valsalva closes the Nolman valve.

This can be easily seen by the movement of the hyoid bone.

When the Nolman valve is "closed" the hyoid bone is in its topmost position (as in Valsalva)
This closes the articulation of the temporals and the occipital, which in turn narrow the foramina or foramen along the articulations.

Yawning does the opposite, it opens the Nolman valve.
The hyoid bone moves down to its lowest position.
This causes the muscles to pull downward on the styloid processes of the temporal bones opening the articulation and the foramen located along the temporal bones and the occipital bone.

I would say the foramen which are found mostly along articulations are key players involved with intracranial pressure.

A slight movement of the skull bones can change the pressure.

1. There is no such thing as a "Nolman valve". Your name is Brian Nolman and you're making stuff up.

2. Yawning does not clear the brain of CSF. And it is not a cure for schizophrenia either, as you have claimed elsewhere.

3. There is no free articulation between the occipital and temporal bones. In normal people they are totally fused after the age of 8, unless in certain disease states.

4. Yawnology is not a real field.

5. I can't believe I got myself involved in this discussion. You're a wacko. Goodbye.
 
1) when you yawn your ribs do move upward - but your spine stays in the same place, what you may notice is the use of accessory muscles that may give you the sensation of a lifted spine... but no there is no spine movement... and since the occipital bone is fused with the calvarium, it wouldn't make a difference to ICP
2) the tugging on your trachea doesn't move your temporal bone either in correlation with the occipital bone, especially since they are fused

3) yawning is like a valsalva, and thus will increase ICP transiently....

4) it is nice that you are trying to figure this out, but your basic premises are all flawed... i suggest you go to college or med school and learn how to do research...
 
Originally posted by Docxter
1. There is no such thing as a "Nolman valve". Your name is Brian Nolman and you're making stuff up.

There is now. My name is Brian Nolman and I made it up, it was my theory so I called it what I liked, its easy to remember if you think no.1 man valve.

2. Yawning does not clear the brain of CSF. And it is not a cure for schizophrenia either, as you have claimed elsewhere.

Yawning does increase the cerebrospinal fluid pressure momentarily, csf pressure is directly related to csf absorption, thereby increasing circulation. Schizophrenia has no known cure but rapid circulation of csf may help to prevent accummulation of neurotransmitters in the synaptic gap which are continuous with the csf compartment, thus lessening symptoms.

3. There is no free articulation between the occipital and temporal bones. In normal people they are totally fused after the age of 8, unless in certain disease states.

The bones don't actually have to move, the pulling of the styloid process may flex the temporal bone and even a slight flexing could change the volume of the skull.

4. Yawnology is not a real field.

I didn't invent the territory, I just coined the name. I asked Ronald Baenninger what he thought of the term yawnologist and this is what he had to say...
"If bartenders can be called mixologists I suppose scientists who study yawning can be called yawnologists. RB "


5. I can't believe I got myself involved in this discussion. You're a wacko. Goodbye.

believe it you did and thanks
 
Originally posted by Tenesma
1) when you yawn your ribs do move upward - but your spine stays in the same place, what you may notice is the use of accessory muscles that may give you the sensation of a lifted spine... but no there is no spine movement... and since the occipital bone is fused with the calvarium, it wouldn't make a difference to ICP
2) the tugging on your trachea doesn't move your temporal bone either in correlation with the occipital bone, especially since they are fused

3) yawning is like a valsalva, and thus will increase ICP transiently....

4) it is nice that you are trying to figure this out, but your basic premises are all flawed... i suggest you go to college or med school and learn how to do research...

It's ok if the spine stays fast in place, it doesn't have to move upward all it needs to do is to stand fast and resist the pull on the temporal bones, to say the spine is lifted is merely to exxagerate the effect, with the occipital bone sitting firmly on the spine the pull on the the styloid processes of the temporal bones is enough to cause a change in the intracranial pressure.

The effects of both yawning and Valsalva are transient but they are very different in how they affect the hyoid.
During Valsalva the hyoid bone reaches its topmost position having no pull on the styloid processes. During yawning the hyoid bone drops to its lowest position, when it does the muscles and ligaments pull downward on the styloid processes of the temporal bones. That is why I consider Valsalva to be the opposite of yawning.
 
can you explain how pulling on the styloid process would affect ICP???? where do you get this stuff from??? are you making this up? i don't know if i should be worried or laughing...
 
Originally posted by Tenesma
can you explain how pulling on the styloid process would affect ICP???? where do you get this stuff from??? are you making this up? i don't know if i should be worried or laughing...

Think of it like the pulling of a diaphram in a pump and how that affects the liquid on the other side of a diaphram, a 1mm movement on a diaphram or the temporal bones has an affect on the fluid on the other side.

laugh if its a choice

what has been there is there and will be for a long time so no worries we'll figure it all out eventually
 
okay - a diaphragm is a mobile component of a system - the temporal bone isn't mobile - if you really believe this then you can just skip the yawning part, and push/pull on your temporal bone to refresh your brain ... 😀
 
Great. Back to the Craniosacral therapy of chiro's and old osteopaths.
 
Originally posted by Tbonez
Great. Back to the Craniosacral therapy of chiro's and old osteopaths.

I almost forgot about those guys 😀

"The serrated sutures promote expansion and contraction of the skull during respiration (flexion extension). Examples are the maxillary/malar and the malar zygomatic sutures. The squamosal sutures allow for rotation (external/internal) respiratory motion, as in the temporal sphenoidal suture.

There also are key pivot points in cranial sutures, allowing opposing motions, expansion and rotation to operate in an efficient and synchronized fashion. An excellent example of this would be the pivot point in the occipital mastoid suture that allows for temporal (a paired bone) external internal flexion and extension." ...

"This cranial movement is thought to be inherent, rhythmic and spontaneous, and to have a direct influence on dural tissue and cerebral spinal fluid movement."

I got that from here...

http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/14/10/12.html
 
Radiographic Evidence
of Cranial Bone Mobility

This study concludes that cranial bone mobility can be documented and measured on x-ray.

Table 1
Measures Atlas Mastoid Malar Spehnoid Temporal
Average degree of change
2.58 1.66 1.25 2.42 1.75
Percentage w/change
91.6 66.6 81.8 91.6 91.6
Range of degree of change
0-6 0-6 0-4 0-8 0-5

The percentage of people with change shows movement of the skull bones is common.

Kragt, et al,(1) showed that movement was possible at the sutures in a macerated human skull, and Retzlaff, et al,(2) documented that the cranial sutures do not fuse with age.

To see the whole study....

http://www.icnr.com/craniojournal/cranialbonemobility.htm
 
dude that study is totally useless and doesn't prove anything... you are grasping at straws... give up...
 
Here are more studies:

Cranial Bone and Sutural Mobility Studies
Cranial sutures play a critical role in calvarial morphogenesis. Opperman et. al., (1993,1995), demonstrated that the traditional model of cranial suture morphogenesis invoking biomechanical tensional forces (not unlike the analogy of "tectonic plates" abutting against one another) arising in the cranial base is an incomplete explanation. It was established that when calvarial rudiments encompassing the coronal sutures of neonatal rats were transplanted into adult hosts, the sutures developed normally, and if the donor dura mater was included, the sutures remained patent. In the absence of dura mater, sutural obliteration eventually ensued. It was felt that growth factors in the dura mater (e.g.TGF-b) participated in a regulatory cascade (e.g. cell signal) that permitted the calvarial sutures to be major bone growth centers during the expansion of the neonatal skull.

Oudhof (1982) demonstrated that as the skull develops, the tissue of the coronal and sagittal sutures assume a specific structure which is nearly identical to a gomphosis classification of a joint. These sutures then may be regarded as a type of "multi-gomphosis". This arrangement permits the suture to resist mechanical forces exerted against it. The differentiation of connective tissue fibers and its resemblance to a gomphosis, suggests that the suture can resist forces in directions that widen and those that narrow the suture.

Wagemans, et. al. (1988) citing the work of Bjork has demonstrated that sutural growth normally ceases at age 17 years in males. However, if growth ceases, the suture does not necessarily close immediately. Citing Chopra and Kokich, Wagemans notes that the frontozygomatic and zygomaticomaxillary sutures of pigtail macaque monkeys remain patent until at least 20 years of age. In humans this observation is consistent that the analogous sutures do not fuse until the seventh decade.

Pritchard, et.al. (1956), in a classic study on suture development used fetal animal or newborn human subjects. Their proposal that viable sutures may permit slight movement is limited to this population of subjects. Interestingly, Pritchard is noted to have remarked: "obliteration of sutures and synostoses of the adjoining bones, if it happens at all, occurs usually after all growth has ceased, but in man and most laboratory animals sutures may never completely close".

Retzlaff, et. al., (1979), performed gross and microscopic analysis of sagittal and parietotemporal sutures in 17 cadavers ranging in age from 7 to 78 years. The authors reported no evidence of sutural obliteration by ossification in any of the samples they studied.

Verhulst et. al., (1997), citing the classic studies of Todd and Lyon of the 1920's, noted that suture closure exhibits a definite periodicity, the most extreme activity occurs between twenty-six and thirty years. Additional periods of activity occur in the fifties and the late seventies. Todd and Lyon, found that the degree of closure of some of the cranial sutures demonstrated fluctuations during the fourth, fifth and sixth decades. The squamous suture is the latest suture to close with ossification starting around the age of 63 years, and a second pulse at the age of 78years.

A study by Michael and Retzlaff (1975) while at Michigan State University, utilizing a pressure transducer surgically affixed to the parietal bones of squirrel monkeys (Saimiri sciureus), demonstrated parietal bone displacement with some of the displacement patterns corresponding to respiratory frequency and another pattern of 5-7 cycles per minute that corresponded to neither heart rate nor changes in central venous pressure.

In the classic study on living human subjects performed by Frymann (1971), wherein she developed a non-invasive apparatus for mechanically measuring the changes in cranial diameter. The apparatus consisted of a "U" shaped frame with a differential transformer placed laterally on each side of the subject's skull. Cranial motion was recorded simultaneously with thoracic respiration. On the basis of extensive recordings, Frymann was able to conclude that a rhythmic pattern to cranial mobility exists that is different than that of thoracic respiration.

Retzlaff, et. al., (1982), demonstrated the presence of nerve and vascular tissue imbedded within cranial sutures. They also were able to trace nerve endings from the sagittal sinus through the falx cerebri and third ventricle to the superior cervical ganglion in primates and mammals. The argument could be made, that what purpose would nature design a cranial suture with a neurovascular bundle imbedded within it, if not to provide some type of vascular nutrient supply and sensory capability to the suture.

Cohen (1993), in his work discussing the correlates of craniosynostosis, clearly believed that all cranial sutures eventually fuse, and his work was directed to explore the reasons why some sutures prematurely close in conditions such as craniosynostosis. He concludes that sutural initiation may take place by overlapping of sutures, in which case results in a beveled suture. Or it may occur by end to end approximation, which creates a non-beveled, end-to end type of suture. All end-to-end types of sutures reside in the midline (e.g. metopic and sagittal). It is felt that biomechanical forces on either side of the developing suture tend to be equal in magnitude. This point of view does not take into account the work of Opperman (1993, 1995), that as alluded to above, also indicates that local dural tissue growth factors (e.g. TGF-b) play an etiological role in cranial sutural morphogenesis, as well as biomechanical tensional forces as the calvarial plates abut up against one another.

Moskolenko (1980, 1996,1998), utilizing a variety of technologies (e.g. reoencephalography, reoplethysmography, and electroplethysmography) combined with a computer analysis, was able to demonstrate cranial bone motion ("fluctuations") at a frequency of 6-14 cycles per minute.

I found that here...

http://www.osteodoc.com/research.html

I don't think theese people are making it up, there are likely more studies that agree with them.

The bones don't move much, but it doesn't take much movement to affect the volume of the cranial vault.

Next time you yawn you might hear a "crack" type sound, it doesn't happen every time you yawn, but once in a while you will hear that cracking sound, it almost sounds like its between the ears at the top of the back of the neck. This cracking sound could be the movement of your temporal bone(s). You can live in denial or hear it for yourself by simply paying attention when you yawn.
 
Originally posted by Old brain

Next time you yawn you might hear a "crack" type sound, it doesn't happen every time you yawn, but once in a while you will hear that cracking sound, it almost sounds like its between the ears at the top of the back of the neck. This cracking sound could be the movement of your temporal bone(s). You can live in denial or hear it for yourself by simply paying attention when you yawn.

That's the sound of opening of the Eustachian tube.
 
Originally posted by Docxter
That's the sound of opening of the Eustachian tube.

Yup. The sound of the eustachian tube opening, allowing CSF to drain out! 😉 Is anybody else here having difficulty telling if the OP is being serious or joking? I've been following his posts for some time now, and I still can't figure it out.
 
Originally posted by Docxter
That's the sound of opening of the Eustachian tube.

The eustachian tubes tend to "pop" more than "crack" while the eustacian tubes are often heard during a yawn, that is not the sound I was talking about, its definately a crack sound like knuckles cracking or the sound of other joints cracking. Its a hard sound, not a muffled tissue sound.

The eustacian tubes can be heard when changing altitudes (air pressure changes) during swallowing or yawning.

The crack sound I'm talking about can be only heard when yawning or perhaps during cranial/sacral therapy. Its definately in my mind a bone sound.

It sounds like the joints (sutures) move a hair. If you've never hears it before, then one time during a great yawn you might hear a snap and wonder if you broke something it can be loud or subtle, you might think its the sound of the mandible cracking.

If you've ever heard a crack sound or a snap sound this would be a great time to mention it.
 
To hear the Nolman valve in action

simply

open your mouth slightly, hold your jaw still so no movement sounds can come from it, and inspire deeply. deeper than you would normally call a deep breath.

You will hear a click. (let out your air don't valsalva on me 😉 )

It is not eustacian or mandible.

The click is the Nolman (No. 1 man) valve opening.

To learn more of the Nolman valve try here...

http://brain.hastypastry.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2480

h ttp://brain.hastypastry.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2480


The deep breath stimulates

arterial blood flow around the brain

the lymphatic system to gush visibly as it enters the subclavian vein

the cerebrospinal fluid which is between the positive arterial pressure of the choroid plexus of the blood system and the negative drainage pressure of the cervical lymph nodes of the lymphatic system is also stimulated to move (circulate) by the pressures exerted on the articulations of the cranial cavity.

The Nolman valve in action.

Just a click away.
 
Idiopathic said:
I googled it and the only references are from you

Now you and I know about it, the rest of the planet can (will) catch up later

, all over the web.

I guess my job is done

please stop now.

yawnology has just begun to enlighten physiology.

It just looks silly.

like a diamond surrounded by used oil sludge.
 
"Mr. Nolman, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."
 
Topic admins can always close the thread if it is getting out of control.

.
 
unknownMD said:
"Mr. Nolman, ...

I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."

hmm I might need that

thanks 🙂

I said what I said I have very little to add. Your right you won't find it in the books well most books not yet anyway, but

stay tuned

There is life in the universe

😉

:Ob
 
Top