Is it really out of reach...

[DTrMnd 2Be A MD]

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I am in a similar situation with some who may not be willing to step out and feel the heat.... But sometimes the heat or a swift kick in the ass can make the world of difference And no I do not want any smoke blown up my ass. Give it to me straight! And no I do not want to go off shore for school. The only difference is that I was originally admitted to undgrad as a biochemistry major with aspirations of being a Neuro-Surgeon. I very soon became burned out and changed majors to Computational Mathematics and then Computer Science. Before long I looked up and time was up and my parents were hassling be about why I am not graduating at the end of 4yrs. (JD and MBA/JD). So i had a lot of fun in undergrad and now I am paying for it because I have so much work ahead of me to raise my gpa from an astounding 2.014 from UCR.... The only good thing about this is that my last two quarters of school in yr 5 were 3.2 and 3.15 with 17 units in each quarter. I recently over the last year or so have regained my desire to be a Surgeon again. I am currently a software Engineer who is bored by his hobby that became his career.

Realistically i recently spoke with the admissions coordinator at USC for the Post-Bac Pre Med Program. I expressed my desire to enter their Post Bac program and then upon completion attend Keck.

While speaking with her she was very nice about telling me that the competition for their program was very fierce, and that her recommendation would be to complete the rest of my pre-reqs via an extension program at UCLA or any other 4yr institution and then obtain a Master's of Science in Biology, Bio-Chemistry or Chemistry. She also noted that I would need to pretty much get all A's in every course that I took.

Here is my question: Since I left my biochem major before completing all of my pre-reqs how would the undergrad gpa be computed. I took 1st quarter Bio twice getting a D the second time, I took 1 quarter to physics and got a D and I have taken 2 quarters of in-organic Chem both good for C's. Meaning that i would have to take 2 more quarters in Bio(Really 3 to up the first quarter class), 1 quarter in in-organic Chem, 3 quarters of Physics at the next higher level and 3 quarters of O-Chem. I was also planning on taking Genetics and vertebrate anatomy while working on my Masters if necessary.

Here is the kicker: I graduated in 2002 with a BA in Liberal Studies-history and Business. and I am currently 29. I have figured that the earliest that I would be able to enter med school would be at the age of 32 which is perfectly fine with me.
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Is it really that much out of reach .....

 

[Perrotfish]

1) you can definitely do this if you're willing to put in the time and effort.

2) You are about as far from medical school as humanly possible.

First be aware that the average matriculant stats for a non-minority, allopathic medical student is a 3.65 and a 31 on the MCAT. For DO schools it is about a 3.5 and a 28 on the MCAT.

Doing the pre-reqs alone are not going to get you in, even if you get all As in all of them you won't get past a 2.5 and no one gets into medical school without at least a 2.75 (via the SMP route) or well over a 3.0 (via any other route). You're looking at basically taking another bachelors here.

Your options:

Retake ALL the classes you did badly in in addition to your prereqs, get a great MCAT, apply DO. If you retake a class DO schools take the grade from the retake. When you start getting close to a 3.4 'with replacement' apply to medical school.

Take your prereqs plus a bunch of upper level science classes. Bring your GPA and sci-GPA up to a 3.0, get a good MCAT, apply to an SMP, do so well in the the SMP that a medical school takes you

Get your GPA up. Go offshore. Try not to fail out. Keep in mind your current stats are no where near what is necessary to enter the sort of offshore institution that is actually accredited in the US. This is not an option to be looked down upon, this a goal you need to aspire to.

You'll notice that all of these options involve multiple years of full time academics, and a ton of money. Also you're nowhere near taking the MCAT. A lot of people with good grades get to the MCAT... and never get past it. So be aware you could shell out all this time and effort and hit a brick wall at the end of your process. This is all for a profession that is setting records for suicide and divorce rates. You need to seriously ask yourself if this is worth it for you.

 

[DTrMnd 2Be A MD]

First, thank you for your advice and information.

Well to be honest yes, my wife is with me on this quest and fully supports me in this effort especially since a lot of sacrifices will have to be made. And what would the options have been if I was a minority? I only ask because I am.... But the jacked up part is that I am not what is considered an educationally or socioeconomically challenged minority. Especially since both my parents are attorney's.

With basically obtaining a second BS why would that hold more weight than say a Master's in Bio-Chemistry and Molecular Biology?

 

[hung]

undergraduate gpa is separate from graduate gpa. most schools emphasize undergraduate gpa. some schools focus more on your last couple years of academic performance.

 

[DrMidlife]

First, you're taking on a great deal of information right now, and I encourage you to get a second opinion on everything. Including what I say. In my experience, SDN tends to be quite a bit more accurate than any one adviser of any one program, because that adviser lives in a silo and can only speak for his/her program. If you see multiple SDN posters saying "it's like this" and not being qualitatively shot down, then indeed "it is like this." There are about 130 allopathic med schools, and about 30 osteopathic med schools, and if you need to assess your chances across all these programs, SDN as a community is really the only source that has any chance to represent current, practical reality. So, ideally, take the current, practical reality you find here, filter it to what you're willing to do, and throw away what isn't applicable.

Now: here's the bad news right up front for you. With a 2.014 you should not be talking about med school. If you insist on talking about med school, the only thing you can do to make your case legitimate is to earn a cumulative undergrad GPA that sets you up for the next steps. There are a few medical masters programs, SMPs (these are substantially different from regular grad work) that will let you in with a 2.75, most will let you in with a 3.0. More on this in a moment.

The next probable bad news is that graduate work will not help you one bit right now. When a candidate has a 3.3 and a decent application, graduate work can help that app, like a strong extra-curricular. With a sub-3.0, it does nothing for you. Even if you kick ass in an SMP, you still have to explain your 5 years of undergrad suckage, and believably explain why your 1 year of SMP ass-kicking is more representative of your mettle. So personally I would cancel that meeting with the grad school folks.

Undergrad GPA is apples, and grad GPA is oranges. With 45,000+ applicants to evaluate, med schools can't objectively look at you until late in the process: they have to autoscreen apples to apples. A very low undergrad GPA gives a med school permission to not look at you any further. With a minimally-acceptable GPA (like mine), the most you can hope for is an in-state interview (not in California, though).

Recently in the nontrad forum I drew a line in the sand: a 3.4 is the minimum comfort GPA for allopathic schools, and a 3.0 is the minimum comfort GPA for osteopathic schools. People, of course, disagree with me, and I hope their app seasons go better than mine did. By "comfort" GPA I mean that you have in hand the dominant academic asset that justifies all the effort, expense and emotional havoc a non-trad takes on getting into med school.

Here's an over-generalization of how your undergrad performance is evaluated:
1. A computer screens cumulative undergrad overall and science GPAs. If you make it past this, then:
2. A set of eyeballs screens the year-by-year breakdown. At this point an upward trend or SMP is relevant. Then:
3. A committee argues over the rigor of your coursework and fights for the best prepared applicants.

Each step of the way, the pile has to be 90% smaller on the other side. You can't give the reviewer (or computer) any reason to reject you.

"Minority" is useless in getting into med school unless your demographic is underrepresented in medicine. If there are lots of doctors who share your race/ethnicity, you don't have an URM card.

OK, so what to do.

Getting your undergrad GPA to 2.75 is going to take you 3 years at a 4.0. That 2.75 might get you into the EVMS SMP or one of the DO school SMPs, which might get you into med school. With a 2.75, med schools are going to want to see the results of the full SMP year before they'll interview you, so you'll have a gap year while you apply. So the shortest path is 5 years, and it's by no means a sure thing.

If Texas keeps their academic fresh start policy, where you can get your slate wiped clean after 10 years, this could save you. You'd have to research it very carefully. You'd have to become a TX resident, presumably go to a TX undergrad to re-earn your bachelors with a competitive GPA, and wait for 2012 to come to have your old undergrad record wiped. You'd then only be eligible at TX public med schools (no Baylor).

In any case, there should be a strong positive demarcation between the 2.014 version of you and the "ready for med school" version of you. A Peace Corps gig is the perfect demarcation, and there are plenty of other options. Every med school app, secondary and interview is going to ask you why your grades sucked, and what happened to turn you around, and how they can rest assured that you won't revert to slackerhood after you start med school. Give them a reasonable story.

In summary, it's not impossible, but for the love of all that's holy please try to find something else you'd be happy doing. You won't know for at least 10 years if surgery is going to make you happy, and you have to be willing to lose everything to get there.

Best of luck to you.

 

[hung]

this is why the post bacc forum is so much better than the pre-med forum. Perrotfish and DrMidlife always giving indepth advice.

sorry about that. it was pulling an all nighter when i wrote it.

 

[Perrotfish]

this is why the post bacc forum is so much better than the pre-med forum. Perrotfish and DrMidlife always giving indept advice.

Did you forget an 'h' or add a 'd'?