Is it true that for some specialties, MD-PhD is advantageous for residency?

[NapoleonBonaparte]

I was under the general impression that other factors matter more than dual degree status for residency. But, I'm recently reading that some specialities usually at top academic centers actually prefer MD-PhD for residents. Is this true? Would this mostly apply to internal medicine or does this also affect surgical fields like plastics, neuro, and ortho? How much of a difference would this make?

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[afib123]

No doubt it helps. But you need a step 1 score first. If you get a 220, it'll be hard to get into neurosurgery even with a Phd. With a 250+ and a Phd in neuroscience , you're probably guaranteed neurosurgery. Not exactly the case with just 250+ without a Phd

 

[FindMeOnTheLinks]

It depends on the program. For residency programs that are very academic with an emphasis on basic science or translational research, obviously somebody with the skills from a PhD would be well suited. However, for programs that are more clinically focused I think it’s less about the degree itself and more about the CV you built with the research you did while doing the PhD that might help you.

 

[eteshoe]

It depends on the program. For residency programs that are very academic with an emphasis on basic science or translational research, obviously somebody with the skills from a PhD would be well suited. However, for programs that are more clinically focused I think it’s less about the degree itself and more about the CV you built with the research you did while doing the PhD that might help you.

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[Quantal Reasoning]

MD-PhD is huge for residency. Top programs want to churn out academic physicians, and you doing a PhD is a pretty solid indication of wanting to do research beyond residency.

 

[WedgeDawg]

I think much of it is correlative, not causative. Alternatively, more self-selection than selection by PDs

 

[HappiSquirrel]

Take a look at the UPenn GI fellowship, a lot of their fellows are MD/PhDs. I am sure that MD/PhD will help, especially for the top-tier competitive specialties.

 

[TheIllusionist]

people tend to respect those that busted their asses for 4-6 years doing basic research. but the benefit is a fraction of the worth of the effort it takes to actually get a phd

 

[NapoleonBonaparte]

Then for the specialties that look highly upon significant research experience , is it a better idea to do like 1-2 years of extra research through a fellowship during or after med school rather than doing entire PhD? Or is that still not enough?

 

[NicMouse64]

MD/PHD, neurosurgery......I'll follow this thread in 15 years.....

 

[NapoleonBonaparte]

Haha sorry if this sounds super cringey. Idk which program to apply to since I am both interested in surgical fields but also loves my research. I don’t want to compromise my shot at good residencies for not having enough research

 

[Lucca]

Then for the specialties that look highly upon significant research experience , is it a better idea to do like 1-2 years of extra research through a fellowship during or after med school rather than doing entire PhD? Or is that still not enough?

a lot of med students take a research year between third and fourth to apply build up that experience; at a handful of med schools that is built into the curriculum. Your med school might support you doing that through some mechanism. There are also a handful of external mechanisms like Doris Duke

Home | Doris Duke Charitable Foundation

here's a list of what projects/folks got funded in last yrs competition (notice that the PIs mentoring students who won the award tend to have been funded at some point in their career by the same foundation).

2018 Clinical Research Mentorship Grantees | Grant Recipients | Doris Duke Charitable Foundation

def dont do a PhD just because you want a marginal edge at residency (see my answer to u on reddit).

If you're interested in academic medicine and, in particular, surgery then get into the best possible medical school you can, ideally one with plenty of protected time for you to build up a nice research resume. Doesn't need to be basic bench science and, in fact, the vast, vast majority of surgeon scientists dont do basic science rather more clinical and then translationally oriented research.

moving to premed as op is premed.

 

[NapoleonBonaparte]

So I’m guessing taking year or two off for research fellowship is more than enough for top residencies? Like is there a critical mass of research after which there is no difference?

 

[Lucca]

So I’m guessing taking year or two off for research fellowship is more than enough for top residencies? Like is there a critical mass of research after which there is no difference?

you need the whole package and the residency process can be extremely competitive. There are no cut-and-dry answers here. Your first priority should be getting into the best possible medical school and then being the best possible medical student (high Step 1, honor as many rotations as possible or equivalent, be AOA if your school has it, publish papers and present at conferences ideally in the field you are interested in). How much of your actual time you actually spend doing research is secondary to those facts. That said, one research year appears to be more common than 2.

 

[DrFortiusNatando]

Preference for MD/PhD is very program specific, and somewhat specialty specific. DERM and Therapeutic RAD (RAD ONC) both love md/phd's. Oncology is starting to really like them - but that is a fellowship after IM residency. Cards and other IM specialties will make room for MD pHDs in many top research programs, of course.

Though not many people apply to PEDS from MSPE, those students get the love - both recent ones from our program wanted to do Peds ONC. Some of the surgical specialties ie neurosurgery, want the MD/PhD students, but other surg specialties are worried that MD/PhDs will never operate enough to be really good surgeons if they try to maintain big presence in the lab. Neurology at our place loves MD/PhD's but many other residencies want students who they think will be better clinical folks. OB GYN surprisingly not all crazy for our MD PhD's and those students, had harder time getting interviews at some very good programs. (even with good LORs and good Step scores). Psych at our program very biological and MD PhD loved, but not universally true at more clinical places. And finally, EM, which you might expect may shy away from MD PhD, rewards those applicants with lots of interviews if all other parts of their applications match up.

 

[Naruhodo]

I agree with the above post (and this it provides some really good insight). One specialty I'd add that loves MD/PhD's is pathology, which makes sense given the emphasis on the lab/research for many of those folks.

One thing I found kind of funny entering med school was that the number of students in my class who professed their love/dedication to neurosurgery was roughly equal to the number of students professing their love/dedication to primary care. Yet obviously the competitiveness/ need for more practitioners in those two areas is not at all equal. Obviously things will shuffle around as students get a better sense of different medical specialties and evaluate their own performance in med school/ on STEPs (and the largest majority of students are those who are honest about being undecided early on), but it's just interesting to see what students think starting out is their end goal.

 

[The Knife & Gun Club]

So I’m guessing taking year or two off for research fellowship is more than enough for top residencies? Like is there a critical mass of research after which there is no difference?

I want to take a step back here.

What do you mean when you say “top residency”? That means different things to different people. So a better question is “what are your career goals”?

Do you LOVE research, so much so that it’s equally rewarding as clinical medicine in your mind?

If your goal is to be an academic at a big university hospital churning out research with minimal clinical time - then yea MD/PhD is the way to go.

Do you want to go to a famous hospital residency for the name and prestige? Feel warm and fuzzy knowing you’re better than all the losers that didn’t do their residency at Harvard?

Do you want the best training possible as a resident? (Because the residencies with the best clinical training usually aren’t the famous ones.)

Of the things I listed, the first two are reasons to do MD/PhD. The second two are not. Remember that at some point you need to get off the academic treadmill and think about what you really want to do with your life...not just the diplomas you can hang on your wall.

 

[eteshoe]

As @The Knife & Gun Club pointed out, there has to be a logical reason as to why one is pursuing extended research bouts. If you’re aspirations are purely clinical, then I fail to see how taking a bunch of time to do research is beneficial. You’d eventually have to do some research blocks during residency/fellowship. Rankings for med schools don’t necessarily translate over to residencies. And if you see yourself as being a pure clinician, then the level of autonomy, diversity of cases, etc you’ll have will play a lot into your decision to obtain the best clinical training.

I’ve seen lots of students take an additional year or so to do some mediocre project but if your step scores and clinical grades are high enough and you’re not after a super competitive specialty, then there’s really no need. But then again I understand that it’s all part of the game so it may not be in the student’s control anyhow (unfortunately).

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I agree with the above post (and this it provides some really good insight). One specialty I'd add that loves MD/PhD's is pathology, which makes sense given the emphasis on the lab/research for many of those folks.

One thing I found kind of funny entering med school was that the number of students in my class who professed their love/dedication to neurosurgery was roughly equal to the number of students professing their love/dedication to primary care. Yet obviously the competitiveness/ need for more practitioners in those two areas is not at all equal. Obviously things will shuffle around as students get a better sense of different medical specialties and evaluate their own performance in med school/ on STEPs (and the largest majority of students are those who are honest about being undecided early on), but it's just interesting to see what students think starting out is their end goal.

Path is actually the perfect example of why these numbers shouldn’t be automatically assumed to show a causative association. Path has one of the highest percentages of applicants with PhDs and yet is one of the least competitive specialties to match, definitely not requiring a PhD. Hell, only 6.5% of matched derm applicants had a PhD last year, which was less than half of the percentage of matched applicants to neurology. And no one would argue neurology is more competitive than derm. You just can’t assume causal relationships here.

(I know you didn’t specifically say the PhD is necessary for path, but there is a strong implication by many in this thread that the PhD is necessary for the most competitive specialties.)

 

[afib123]

I think research year is one of the worst trends amongst medical students playing the game and I hope all top applications with competitive scores and grades don't go this route because it's wasting a year for a silly project (in my opinion) to get into residency. Sure, if someone has a very poor application but want to go for a speciality, by all means do it and increase your chances. But I hope that people that already worked hard through medical school, don't waste a year.

There is already so many hoops to jump through. A wasted year will be one of the worst hoops to jump through if it gets to a research year being the norm. Some people that have money from their family or don't care about money, it might be fine. But for someone like me who wants to get started on their career asap, it will become the worst thing. There's enough material for a residency program to pick students (Step 1, Clinical Grades, Letters of Rec, Sub Internships).

 

[DokterMom]

I agree with the above post (and this it provides some really good insight). One specialty I'd add that loves MD/PhD's is pathology, which makes sense given the emphasis on the lab/research for many of those folks.

One thing I found kind of funny entering med school was that the number of students in my class who professed their love/dedication to neurosurgery was roughly equal to the number of students professing their love/dedication to primary care. Yet obviously the competitiveness/ need for more practitioners in those two areas is not at all equal. Obviously things will shuffle around as students get a better sense of different medical specialties and evaluate their own performance in med school/ on STEPs (and the largest majority of students are those who are honest about being undecided early on), but it's just interesting to see what students think starting out is their end goal.

Someone should create a meme crossing the Harry Potter sorting hat with STEP 1 scores and specialties. I've long been amused by how many med students' 'passions' suddenly become much clearer once their STEP 1 scores come out.

 

[kepler16b]

You posted the same thing on reddit. It's interesting to see the difference in attitude between sdn and reddit... Most people on reddit were noting that this was not a valid reason to pursue an MD/PhD, which I agree with.

Remember, as Zombie Marie Curie once said, "You don't become great by trying to be great, you become great by wanting to do something, and then doing it so hard that you become great in the process."

xkcd: Marie Curie

 

[doc05]

Haha sorry if this sounds super cringey. Idk which program to apply to since I am both interested in surgical fields but also loves my research. I don’t want to compromise my shot at good residencies for not having enough research

The only reason to apply MD-PhD is if you have very specific career goals that involve being a true physician-scientist. This is actually very unlikely to happen, so think twice before committing to a 7-10 year program that is of limited benefit.

No residency truly “prefers” an MD/PhD, though they are probably over represented in academic programs.

Don’t for one minute think that the PhD will make you a better surgeon. All that time in the lab may in fact compromise your ability to develop good operating skills, as there’s only so many hours in a day.

 

[doc05]

Take a look at the UPenn GI fellowship, a lot of their fellows are MD/PhDs. I am sure that MD/PhD will help, especially for the top-tier competitive specialties.

Yes, I’m sure the PhD helps when it comes to operating a colonoscope.

 

[907914]

Yes, I’m sure the PhD helps when it comes to operating a colonoscope.

Hey, those things are like 7 feet long and an inch wide....Takes a serious education to learn how to wrangle that snake.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Hey, those things are like 7 feet long and an inch wide....Takes a serious education to learn how to wrangle that snake.

Not really. We pushed scope in the endo suite and the docs just controlled the flexible head. If you have ever played Xbox, you can scope.

 

[907914]

Not really. We pushed scope in the endo suite and the docs just controlled the flexible head. If you have ever played Xbox, you can scope.

Sarcasm doesn’t travel well through the electrons. Although, basically all scope procedures are fascinating and done by surgical specialties.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Sarcasm doesn’t travel well through the electrons. Although, basically all scope procedures are fascinating and done by surgical specialties.

Now that I read it again, the sarcasm was obvious. I responded like 5 minutes after I woke up, which might explain it lol. But in my experience in three different hospitals, the only scopes the surgeons did were screening colonoscopies, EGDs for r/o ulcers, or intra-op scopes to make sure an anastamosis looks good. All the cool scope procedures were done by GI.

But let's keep it on topic.

 

[scarletgirl777]

a lot of med students take a research year between third and fourth to apply build up that experience; at a handful of med schools that is built into the curriculum. Your med school might support you doing that through some mechanism. There are also a handful of external mechanisms like Doris Duke

Home | Doris Duke Charitable Foundation

here's a list of what projects/folks got funded in last yrs competition (notice that the PIs mentoring students who won the award tend to have been funded at some point in their career by the same foundation).

2018 Clinical Research Mentorship Grantees | Grant Recipients | Doris Duke Charitable Foundation

def dont do a PhD just because you want a marginal edge at residency (see my answer to u on reddit).

If you're interested in academic medicine and, in particular, surgery then get into the best possible medical school you can, ideally one with plenty of protected time for you to build up a nice research resume. Doesn't need to be basic bench science and, in fact, the vast, vast majority of surgeon scientists dont do basic science rather more clinical and then translationally oriented research.

moving to premed as op is premed.

Doris Duke fellowship closed down in 2013, but your med school often will have internal grants and there are other less prestigious grants you can apply for. Many people also choose to do unfunded years in very competitive specialties (e.g. derm, rad onc) and just take on extra loans. Graduating debtfree is not worth the 5 years lost of a very high attending salary in high paying subspecialties. Do the MD-PhD because you want to be a basic scientist, understanding you probably won't anyway but the MD-PhD gets you the best chance. No other reason is a good reason to sign up for that program.

 

[jhamaican]

Yes.

Good for all and even great for others.

Some particular examples stand out: Heme/Onc, Radiation Oncology, Neurosurgery.

Basically any specialty where research plays a large role.