MD & DO Is it true that programs screen for honors in clerkships?

[Newyawk]

I apologize if this has been covered before but I couldn't find it. I find it very hard to believe that programs would screen by honors in clerkship grades (specifically honors in surgery if applying ortho, for e.g.).
My issues with this are probably obvious (listing just a few that came right to mind):
- there must be amazing applicants, otherwise terrific applicants, that just got unlucky or weren't at their best in that one clerkship. maybe had med or surgery first and had a rough start to the year - whatever it is. lets say a person with perfect board scores and honors in most other rotations. would this person really get screened out?
- at some institutions honors grades are given to the top 10% of the class - this is very difficult to achieve particularly if you come from a competitive school
- wouldn't a PD rather have a student with an HP in surgery from a top med school over an honors in surgery from an unranked school? (I'm sure this last question will tick some people off but I had to ask it)

Would appreciate any insight.
@SouthernSurgeon
@OrthoTraumaMD

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[JP2740]

You srs? Of course programs do that

 

[Newyawk]

You srs? Of course programs do that

let me be clearer then.
how many programs do this? what types of programs do this? why?
most importantly - do they screen out otherwise terrific applicants who just happened to have one sub-excellent grade in one clerkship? Or is there a system in place that would put these applicants back in to the mix?
keep in mind this is all new to me and I really don't know much about how residencies choose to interview/rank applicants.

 

[Cognovi]

Nobody knows how many programs do this. Program directors don't even know this, because everyone does their own thing and don't tell each other. The closest we can come to answering your question is from the NRMP program directors survey: 70% of programs consider your grades in the clerkship of the desired specialty when selecting applicants to interview. Consider does not mean a strict cutoff. Grades does not mean simply honors or not. The answer to your question is thus less than 70%. They do this, and anything in the selection process, because they think some discriminating metric will 1) cut down the pool to those they will interview, and 2) predict performance or other contribution to the program as a resident. The former is important because programs typically receive many times more applications than they have resources to interview. The latter is important because they want to select the best residents. The important thing to understand is there is no deficit of qualified applicants who did get honors in the desired specialty.

 

[JP2740]

let me be clearer then.
how many programs do this? what types of programs do this? why?
most importantly - do they screen out otherwise terrific applicants who just happened to have one sub-excellent grade in one clerkship? Or is there a system in place that would put these applicants back in to the mix?
keep in mind this is all new to me and I really don't know much about how residencies choose to interview/rank applicants.

It’s impossible to answer most questions. It’s completely specialty (more competitive, more likely to) and program dependent. But not many people know which programs do this and to what extent, just that it’s a thing. Some programs do screen on amount of total honors (if you havent honored a certain % then you don’t get an interview). In terms of a surgical field screening solely on honoring the surgery rotation, I am not sure to what extent this exists... I’m sure many programs have the capability of doing it as in having more than enough applicants to rank that honored but idk if they’ll do it solely on the 1 rotation but it’s possible. I wouldn’t avoid applying to a field because of 1 grade

 

[Newyawk]

It’s impossible to answer most questions. It’s completely specialty (more competitive, more likely to) and program dependent. But not many people know which programs do this and to what extent, just that it’s a thing. Some programs do screen on amount of total honors (if you havent honored a certain % then you don’t get an interview). In terms of a surgical field screening solely on honoring the surgery rotation, I am not sure to what extent this exists... I’m sure many programs have the capability of doing it as in having more than enough applicants to rank that honored but idk if they’ll do it solely on the 1 rotation but it’s possible. I wouldn’t avoid applying to a field because of 1 grade

I see. Thanks. Screening by percentage of rotations honored makes a lot more sense to me

 

[Lawpy]

It’s impossible to answer most questions. It’s completely specialty (more competitive, more likely to) and program dependent. But not many people know which programs do this and to what extent, just that it’s a thing. Some programs do screen on amount of total honors (if you havent honored a certain % then you don’t get an interview). In terms of a surgical field screening solely on honoring the surgery rotation, I am not sure to what extent this exists... I’m sure many programs have the capability of doing it as in having more than enough applicants to rank that honored but idk if they’ll do it solely on the 1 rotation but it’s possible. I wouldn’t avoid applying to a field because of 1 grade

So I guess a safe way to overcome these screening biases is to do really well on Step 1 (>250) and honor every clinical rotation? I'm sure cognitive biases still play a role in deciding who gets the interview, but I'm curious as to what it takes to overcome the screens.

 

[samsunimomo]

A few schools don't have your typical grading scheme or otherwise employ a very idiosyncratic system. If there is a screen, there's no way that this could be automated.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Yes, just give up. You will never match.

Christ, and I thought premeds were terrible about this ****.

 

[Newyawk]

Yes, just give up. You will never match.

Christ, and I thought premeds were terrible about this ****.

always that one douche in the thread

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

always that one douche in the thread

Maybe if you weren't a little b**** then nobody would have any reason to be a douche to you.

Think about it. If true or not true, how will this affect your performance or your application? You're finding reasons to stress yourself that you have no control over. If you prefer that, enjoy.

 

[operaman]

I’d be surprised if anyone screens so decisively off one metric like that. I just don’t see the predictive value of it for the very reasons you mentioned. That said, it would catch my eye and I would dig a little deeper to figure out what happened. If the rest of the app is stellar and it’s really and truly just a matter of dumb bad luck, then no worries.

That said, anything less than honors in your specialty sub-I would be a huge red flag and probably cost you a lot of interviews.

 

[hallowmann]

I apologize if this has been covered before but I couldn't find it. I find it very hard to believe that programs would screen by honors in clerkship grades (specifically honors in surgery if applying ortho, for e.g.).
My issues with this are probably obvious (listing just a few that came right to mind):
- there must be amazing applicants, otherwise terrific applicants, that just got unlucky or weren't at their best in that one clerkship. maybe had med or surgery first and had a rough start to the year - whatever it is. lets say a person with perfect board scores and honors in most other rotations. would this person really get screened out?
- at some institutions honors grades are given to the top 10% of the class - this is very difficult to achieve particularly if you come from a competitive school
- wouldn't a PD rather have a student with an HP in surgery from a top med school over an honors in surgery from an unranked school? (I'm sure this last question will tick some people off but I had to ask it)

Would appreciate any insight.
@SouthernSurgeon
@OrthoTraumaMD

The answer is it depends. All of this is highly program dependent and no one can give you a clear answer. Its also further compounded by the significant variability in clerkship grading from school to school.

Since its something out of your control, I really wouldn't worry about it. Focus on the things that are in your control (boards, overall performance - i.e. try to get honors in every rotation even if you can't, doing well on subIs, researching programs well, doing well on interviews, etc.).

 

[Newyawk]

Maybe if you weren't a little bitch then nobody would have any reason to be a douche to you.

Think about it. If true or not true, how will this affect your performance or your application? You're finding reasons to stress yourself that you have no control over. If you prefer that, enjoy.

Calls another man a little b behind the safety of his keyboard. Hows that DO inferiority complex coming along?

 

[Gray Fox]

Merry Christmas friends!! Let's try to be cheery today not dreary. Yes, competitive programs do screen based on clerkship grades because they can. There are thousands of applicants that have honored the rotation of the field in which they want to go into. The competition is fierce. This reality can be disheartening, because we all work very hard. The process isn't perfect, and these programs will miss out on exemplary applicants, but programs just don't have the Manpower to go over all parts of your application with a fine-tooth comb.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Both of you need to stop being jerks here; you are in violation of the Terms of Service by doing so.

 

[Newyawk]

Both of you need to stop being jerks here; you are in violation of the Terms of Service by doing so.

Im the jerk?? Lmao you must be joking. This dude goes out of his way to crap on ME and my question and im the jerk?
Unbelievable

 

[Winged Scapula]

Im the jerk?? Lmao you must be joking

Responding to an insult with an insult is immature and unprofessional. I suggest that if you two cannot work well together, then placing each other on Ignore might help.

 

[Newyawk]

Responding to an insult with an insult is immature and unprofessional. I suggest that if you two cannot work well together, then placing each other on Ignore might help.

Whats unprofessional is belittling someone for an honest question. Its more damaging than using a curse word that the FCC doesnt even censor. I thought this website was intended to help people gain info on the medical profession. Maybe the pervasive mocking should be dealt with??

 

[Winged Scapula]

Whats unprofessional is belittling someone for an honest question. Its more damaging than using a curse word that the FCC doesnt even censor. I thought this website was intended to help people gain info on the medical profession. Maybe the pervasive mocking should be dealt with??

We are not talking about the other user; they have been taken care of. Your assumption that only you were the recipient of action is ridiculous.

 

[Newyawk]

We are not talking about the other user; they have been taken care of. Your assumption that only you were the recipient of action is ridiculous.

that wasn't my assumption. your statement implied we were both at equal fault. that is what I took issue with.

 

[Winged Scapula]

that wasn't my assumption. your statement implied we were both at equal fault. that is what I took issue with.

My statement was you were both being jerks.

It has no implication about the level or depth of "jerkiness" and none should have been implied.

 

[Redpancreas]

let me be clearer then.
how many programs do this? what types of programs do this? why?
most importantly - do they screen out otherwise terrific applicants who just happened to have one sub-excellent grade in one clerkship? Or is there a system in place that would put these applicants back in to the mix?
keep in mind this is all new to me and I really don't know much about how residencies choose to interview/rank applicants.

Programs can afford to be picky as they routinely get 1000s of applicants for what if often 10-40 spots. They end up interviewing 100-400 and there is a good chance that they’ll screen you out if it’s a top program without looking back. There are some programs who review more holistically and it’s probably a mixed bag. If you have a field you’re specifically asking about (surgery, etc.) identify the mentors in that field here and ask them the question.

 

[neoexile]

Both of you need to stop being jerks here; you are in violation of the Terms of Service by doing so.

Thank you. I've had enough of insanity in our American politics. Physician to physician talk should be held to a standard of decency.

 

[Reveler]

Programs are more likely to screen based on Step 1 and quartile before they screen for honors grades. Obviously, this is 100% program dependent and since we're talking about the thousands of programs across all specialties, I'm sure that some programs factor HNR clerkship grades into their calculus. But since many schools only do P/F and clerkship grades and experiences vary differently between schools, what do these grades really even mean? That's why universal and more objective measures like steps (which compare all applicants) and quartiles (which compare a single applicant to the entire class) are more valuable.

But yes, programs can be picky. And programs have applicant committees with several members and I'm sure they all value different aspects of the application.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Calls another man a little b behind the safety of his keyboard. Hows that DO inferiority complex coming along?

Attack the DO degree. Classic. Please keep throwing more evidence of the child-like mind.

 

[Newyawk]

Attack the DO degree. Classic. Please keep throwing more evidence of the child-like mind.

I wasnt attacking the degree, i was attacking you and your obvious disdain for students who aim for the top and who are, ill admit, sometimes neurotic. I have never attacked a DO before. In fact a close relative is a DO. But clearly you have some complex where you feel the need to put others down constantly. This is more than evident from your post history.
I asked a legitimate question to which you responded with insulting remarks, effectively sidetracking the thread. Now if you have nothing else to contribute to this thread please stop with your useless posts.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

I wasnt attacking the degree, i was attacking you and your obvious disdain for students who aim for the top and who are, ill admit, sometimes neurotic. I have never attacked a DO before. In fact a close relative is a DO. But clearly you have some complex where you feel the need to put others down constantly. This is more than evident from your post history.
I asked a legitimate question to which you responded with insulting remarks, effectively sidetracking the thread. Now if you have nothing else to contribute to this thread please stop with your useless posts.

Nice attempt for a save. You sound like those people that say "look, I have black friends, and I don't mean to be racist but..."

All students worry about matching and doing well on boards and rotations. Hell, I'd say students at the bottom are the most neurotic ones (and with good reason) considering they won't have food on their table unless they match.

 

[W19]

let me be clearer then.
how many programs do this? what types of programs do this? why?
most importantly - do they screen out otherwise terrific applicants who just happened to have one sub-excellent grade in one clerkship? Or is there a system in place that would put these applicants back in to the mix?
keep in mind this is all new to me and I really don't know much about how residencies choose to interview/rank applicants.

You really think these were legitimate questions! Seriously!

 

[Newyawk]

Nice attempt for a save. You sound like those people that say "look, I have black friends, and I don't mean to be racist but..."

All students worry about matching and doing well on boards and rotations. Hell, I'd say students at the bottom are the most neurotic ones (and with good reason) considering they won't have food on their table unless they match.

Nobody says that.

You really think these were legitimate questions! Seriously!

yea.
take note of the number of people who took their time out to provide meaningful responses.

 

[jw3600]

Nobody says that.



yea.
take note of the number of people who took their time out to provide meaningful responses.

Bro your question was bad and you should feel bad.

Edit: lulz. The first 3 replies were “r u serious?” “Impossible to know” and “no one knows” Keep doing you man.

 

[Gray Fox]

You guys know it's Christmas right?

Why is everyone so angry?

 

[username456789]

I very much doubt they screen that way, particularly because every school doles out Honors differently.
For some, it’s an actual achievement earned by being one of the top students. For many others, it’s merely a participation trophy. Hard to use Honors as such a rigid screening tool.

 

[Gray Fox]

I very much doubt they screen that way, particularly because every school doles out Honors differently.
For some, it’s an actual achievement earned by being one of the top students. For many others, it’s merely a participation trophy. Hard to use Honors as such a rigid screening tool.

Want to be first wave of interviewees for top tier, competitive programs? You better have that H. Heard this from some top dogs. I'm sure if you come from top NIH schools, you're more likely to get thrown a bone if you HP.

If you think programs have the limitless time and resources to exact the highest level of meritocracy into this process, you're wrong.

Life is not fair. Sometimes, it's cruel.

 

[Newyawk]

Bro your question was bad and you should feel bad.

Edit: lulz. The first 3 replies were “r u serious?” “Impossible to know” and “no one knows” Keep doing you man.

Lulz thanks bro. I feel bad.

 

[Stagg737]

They're dumb questions to post on this forum because you could find out the best info available just by googling the Program Director Survey by NRMP in literally 5 seconds. Here:

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/NRMP-2016-Program-Director-Survey.pdf

Pg 80 and 81 are the prevalence and importance of various factors. Of 64 ortho PDs surveyed, 67% said that clerkship grades in surgery were a factor in the applicants they selected for an interview and it seems to be of average importance. After the interview only 38% said it was a factor and importance of that factor seemed to remain average. If you want specifics, you need to contact PD's or attendings at programs yourself and ask them directly what they consider important when selecting applicants.

As a side note, are there really that many people on this site that are so oblivious to the NRMP surveys and info? Seriously, this information is not hard to find or interpret and I don't get how people don't check with the company that runs the actual match for this info.

 

[Newyawk]

They're dumb questions to post on this forum because you could find out the best info available just by googling the Program Director Survey by NRMP in literally 5 seconds. Here:

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/NRMP-2016-Program-Director-Survey.pdf

Pg 80 and 81 are the prevalence and importance of various factors. Of 64 ortho PDs surveyed, 67% said that clerkship grades in surgery were a factor in the applicants they selected for an interview and it seems to be of average importance. After the interview only 38% said it was a factor and importance of that factor seemed to remain average. If you want specifics, you need to contact PD's or attendings at programs yourself and ask them directly what they consider important when selecting applicants.

As a side note, are there really that many people on this site that are so oblivious to the NRMP surveys and info? Seriously, this information is not hard to find or interpret and I don't get how people don't check with the company that runs the actual match for this info.

I know wtf the NRMP is and I've read these reports. They don't answer my specific question. But I appreciate your response nonetheless given the climate of absolutely bozo ass responses in this thread.

 

[operaman]

OP may I make one suggestion? I’m going to make the assumption that your original post reflects your own situation in some way. If so, I would be very careful about how you’re coming across on rotations. I get the sense from your posts that you may not be aware how you are being perceived even in the discussion here, much less in person where people are far less likely to be straightforward with you.

If you’re currently a clinical student, you might benefit from some reflection and redirection for your remaining clerkships. You may be coming across differently than you realize and this may be part of why your grade was lower than you expected. This is not something you want to figure out after your sub-I where a sub-honors grade could truly be a career ender for some fields.

As a resident, I’ve definitely seen some students who struggle with self awareness and come across poorly. I’ve yet to meet any student that was a good enough actor to convincingly fake a good attitude and appear to get along with people. You know how you can tell when your fellow students are full of it? Well so can everyone else. I’ve personally known students who thought they were their departments’ Golden boy only to find their home program didn’t even rank them. Actually as I think about, the examples I know of also had some low clerkship grades, so maybe it’s something people should be screening on. Either way, the most important thing is making sure whatever caused it doesn’t happen again, and my spidey sense thinks it may be how you’re coming across to others.

I offer this unsolicited advice not to be judgmental, but because the evolution of the thread made me think it might be helpful. I think it also might be helpful to others who read it to thoughtfully re-evaluate how they too are perceived by others in a professional setting.

 

[Newyawk]

OP may I make one suggestion? I’m going to make the assumption that your original post reflects your own situation in some way. If so, I would be very careful about how you’re coming across on rotations. I get the sense from your posts that you may not be aware how you are being perceived even in the discussion here, much less in person where people are far less likely to be straightforward with you.

If you’re currently a clinical student, you might benefit from some reflection and redirection for your remaining clerkships. You may be coming across differently than you realize and this may be part of why your grade was lower than you expected. This is not something you want to figure out after your sub-I where a sub-honors grade could truly be a career ender for some fields.

As a resident, I’ve definitely seen some students who struggle with self awareness and come across poorly. I’ve yet to meet any student that was a good enough actor to convincingly fake a good attitude and appear to get along with people. You know how you can tell when your fellow students are full of it? Well so can everyone else. I’ve personally known students who thought they were their departments’ Golden boy only to find their home program didn’t even rank them. Actually as I think about, the examples I know of also had some low clerkship grades, so maybe it’s something people should be screening on. Either way, the most important thing is making sure whatever caused it doesn’t happen again, and my spidey sense thinks it may be how you’re coming across to others.

I offer this unsolicited advice not to be judgmental, but because the evolution of the thread made me think it might be helpful. I think it also might be helpful to others who read it to thoughtfully re-evaluate how they too are perceived by others in a professional setting.

Thanks a lot for this advice. I have yet to start clinicals (start them soon) so while your assumption is incorrect it still is somewhat applicable to me, which is why i am afraid of subjective grading. Ive been subjectively graded in the past and have usually fared worse than my objective grades. This isnt to say im not a social person.
I am certainly not arrogant when it comes to this stuff. I will definitely not think of myself as any departments golden boy, i can assure you. I know im an excellent test taker and have faith in my knowledge but i also know i have a lot of room to grow in the clinical/professional world.
If you can, id really appreciate it if you could be more direct with your advice over PM. Thanks again.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Srsly?

This is why we can't have nice things.

Both of you were warned, privately and in the forum yet the stupid arguments and name calling continues.