Is it worth applying to Canadian schools from America?

[bonoz]

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If so, which schools are known for taking in international students?

and just to confirm, Canadian schools see US students as International, right?

 

[thegame11]

Canadian schools are very competitive. Its probably better to apply to a good number of American schools to maximize your chances.

 

[Typical Premed]

Our school Memorial University of Newfoundland is known for having some Americans in the class in the past (although we don't have any in this year's class). From what I have heard they had no trouble matching into residency positions in Canada or the US. However, they pay the international student tuition of $30,000 per yr instead of the Canadian student tuition of $6250 per yr.

 

[bonoz]

Our school Memorial University of Newfoundland is known for having some Americans in the class in the past (although we don't have any in this year's class). From what I have heard they had no trouble matching into residency positions in Canada or the US. However, they pay the international student tuition of $30,000 per yr instead of the Canadian student tuition of $6250 per yr.

Cool. Do you have any idea about the requirements of that school?

Thanks

 

[MrCheetah]

Do it.

I wish I would of. Even paying international tuition is cheaper than tuition for most schools in the US. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the application fees aren't very substantial, either.

You've got nothing to lose, essentially. In fact, with any luck you'll fall in love with and marry a Canadian one or two years into your schooling and get the SUPER cheap rate.

 

[schrizto]

Well, it might be hard. I think Canadian schools that do accept internationals usually take less than 10 for an incoming class if at all.

 

[marble30]

I heard that it's very hard to get in even for OOP (out-of-province) students nevermind internationals. I know for a fact that my school tends to accept at least 60-70% in-province students alone.

 

[schrizto]

A quick look through the MSAR (which includes Canadian schools) shows that the only school that accepted a decent amount of internationals was McGill, with 7. The other schools that did had maybe 1 or 2.

 

[MrCheetah]

If I could pick one school I wish I would have applied to it'd be McGill.

 

[bannie22]

No. Quality of education in American is Better. Unless you go downwards of the say Top 40ish... But then if you are downwards, then you are not going to get into a top school like Uoft/UBC/McGill anywayS.

And why would you want to go to the cold North anyway?
Canada, or at least Ontario, acts like California in terms of admissions selectivity. So you dont really stand a chance.... unless you have a T in writing, and 15 in verbal.

*laughs*

 

[schrizto]

And why would you want to go to the cold North anyway?
Canada, or at least Ontario, acts like California in terms of admissions selectivity. So you dont really stand a chance.... unless you have a T in writing, and 15 in verbal.

*laughs*

Hey, I heard that Canadian schools place a lot of emphasis on the verbal score. Is this true? Based on your comment it sounds like it.

 

[MeRLin443]

A quick look through the MSAR (which includes Canadian schools) shows that the only school that accepted a decent amount of internationals was McGill, with 7. The other schools that did had maybe 1 or 2.

And usually those one or two are usually coming from special circumstances (i.e. A developing nation heavily subsidizes a student). McGill is worthwhile to apply to for Americans though.

 

[tennisball80]

If you have a Canadian citizenship or permanent residency permit, you are encouraged to apply.

 

[bannie22]

Hey, I heard that Canadian schools place a lot of emphasis on the verbal score. Is this true? Based on your comment it sounds like it.

duh Yeah.

Silly big MAC decided to do a
32% gpa
32% VERBAL SCORE
32% Autobio (someting like amcas activities)
4% grad school score-ish


oh, and not being canadian... did they take a single international last year? hahahahahahahhaahhaahh!🙄


thats why i chose to eat two double big macs today..
vengence!!!!

mac= mcmaster btw


oh yah. i just got a pre-interview rejection today. hence the laughing sarcastic hate 😛

 

[schrizto]

duh Yeah.

Silly big MAC decided to do a
32% gpa
32% VERBAL SCORE
32% Autobio (someting like amcas activities)
4% grad school score-ish


oh, and not being canadian... did they take a single international last year? hahahahahahahhaahhaahh!🙄


thats why i chose to eat two double big macs today..
vengence!!!!

mac= mcmaster btw


oh yah. i just got a pre-interview rejection today. hence the laughing sarcastic hate 😛

Ok, so if that's really how McMaster evaluates its candidates, and the verbal score makes up 32% of the evaluation, then does that mean the other two sections don't matter because they weren't even mentioned? 😱

 

[zayka]

Ok, so if that's really how McMaster evaluates its candidates, and the verbal score makes up 32% of the evaluation, then does that mean the other two sections don't matter because they weren't even mentioned? 😱

I'm not sure exactly because I didn't apply there, but until last year, McMaster didn't even look at your MCAT at all, but then they decided that VR scores correlate with good Canadian board scores, so they highly weigh VR. So, since they're used to not looking at MCATs, might not be surprising if they don't look at the other scores.

Other Canadian schools care a lot less about MCAT than US ones (it's usually a cutoff or 9 across the board or 10 across the board, and past that they don't care). McMaster is probably looking for VR reasoning of 12+ since they're making them competitive now (but that's just my guess of a competitive VR score). Most Canadian schools care a lot about GPA, and you probably want at least 3.9-3.95 to be competitive (unless you are willing to go somewhere really cold and to an obscure school). They also care about your activities.

 

[Hoody]

According to mdapps the University of Sherbrooke has an MCAT average of 42 and GPA of 3.945. 😱

am I interpreting that info right or is that just the averages of people who applied from SDN? 😕

um, yeah, okay, nm. I think I'm on cloud stupid right now. time fo bed fo sho.😴

 

[bannie22]

Ok, so if that's really how McMaster evaluates its candidates, and the verbal score makes up 32% of the evaluation, then does that mean the other two sections don't matter because they weren't even mentioned? 😱

http://www.fhs.mcmaster.ca/mdprog/selection_process.html

Click this, and laugh with me. I'm sure they will get the best novelists in the country, or maybe English teachers. Queens gets the best novelist, because of their ***** cutoff for WRITING. 🙄

Oh, And I cant even apply there. Cuz I am international 🙁 Too bad studying for 6 years in Canada and paying over 100k in tuition means nothing.

Yes, they dont matter. Because they are looking for English teachers like I said. Hence, its very imperative that peepol witz poor engurishy like I do notch getting in.

 

[bannie22]

I'm not sure exactly because I didn't apply there, but until last year, McMaster didn't even look at your MCAT at all, but then they decided that VR scores correlate with good Canadian board scores, so they highly weigh VR. So, since they're used to not looking at MCATs, might not be surprising if they don't look at the other scores.

Other Canadian schools care a lot less about MCAT than US ones (it's usually a cutoff or 9 across the board or 10 across the board, and past that they don't care). McMaster is probably looking for VR reasoning of 12+ since they're making them competitive now (but that's just my guess of a competitive VR score). Most Canadian schools care a lot about GPA, and you probably want at least 3.9-3.95 to be competitive (unless you are willing to go somewhere really cold and to an obscure school). They also care about your activities.

👍👍👍

However, I am not too sure about activities.
I feel that its all GPA... They have a GPA cutoff auto-invite anyway (or something very close to that)

Compare that to US med schools, which really care about teh entire app, for an extreme case say Duke. =P they invited u😛


Most importantly, I think teh GPA thing is meh...
We both agree that 4.0s from teh school across the street means nothing nothing rite?

 

[canada1311]

According to mdapps the University of Sherbrooke has an MCAT average of 42 and GPA of 3.945. 😱

am I interpreting that info right or is that just the averages of people who applied from SDN? 😕

um, yeah, okay, nm. I think I'm on cloud stupid right now. time fo bed fo sho.😴

There are many misconceptions and truths on this thread, a few which I should comment on.

University of Sherbrooke is a school where classes are taught in French (Quebec is a French-speaking province). The MCATs are not required for admission to French schools because the MCATs are not offered in French. The University of Montreal and Laval University are two other French isntitutions. The University of Ottawa is officially a bilingual institution (French and English), and also does not require the MCATs.

A previous poster was correct in asserting Canada's system is most similar to that of California's. All med schools in Canada are part of public universities (we don't really have private universities up here), and thus many have obligations to take preference towards residents of their own province (or in some cases, like U of Ottawa, preference towards those in the surrounding region). Med school admissions is quite competitive in Canada - in Ontario (the largest province with 6 of the 13 English-language med schools), only 16.2% of all applicants who filed an application matriculated in any school in the province. Individual school rates of admission in Ontario ranged from 3.2% to 8.5%. Even McGill mostly takes Quebecers, but does take a batch of internationals (both to bolster its international prestige and, as an English institution in a French province, plays by some different rules).

Most schools other than McGill do not take many internationals (if at all), and thus are likely not worth applying to. McMaster is the only school that only looks at the VR section of the MCAT, but in any case they take no more than one international per year (if even that).

Bannie32's assertion that "Quality of education in American is Better" is laughable at best, and smacks of American elitism at worst. An education at a Canadian university is top-notch, and on some international med school rankings (such as the Gorman Report, despite its mysterious methodology), Canadian schools on average rank higher than their US counterparts. Going to a school like McGill or U of T would provide you with an excellent education that compares only to top US or European institutions. With not many med schools in Canada, I would say that the quality remains high across the board. However, as I mentioned before, matriculant data over the past few years suggests that high-quality Canadian medical education is reserved for Canadians, with the exception of McGill. There are many residency and fellowship positions available for those educated outside of Canada and/or who are not citizens/residents of Canada.

As my SDN username suggests, I am Canadian, completed my undergrad here, and currently attend a graduate program in Canada. I am happy to answer any questions on admissions up here, but must admit my knowledge of admissions to French Canadian schools is limited.

 

[Hoody]

An education at a Canadian university is top-notch, and on some international med school rankings (such as the Gorman Report, despite its mysterious methodology), Canadian schools on average rank higher than their US counterparts. Going to a school like McGill or U of T would provide you with an excellent education that compares only to top US or European institutions.

I have several friends playing D1 hockey here in the states who are from up North. I wondered why some elite players would turn down a full ride scholarship to a school here in the states to instead play in the CIS for one of these schools. Then my friends told me that some of these schools are comparable to Ivy's....so I believe what you are saying.

 

[bannie22]

There are many misconceptions and truths on this thread, a few which I should comment on.

University of Sherbrooke is a school where classes are taught in French (Quebec is a French-speaking province). The MCATs are not required for admission to French schools because the MCATs are not offered in French. The University of Montreal and Laval University are two other French isntitutions. The University of Ottawa is officially a bilingual institution (French and English), and also does not require the MCATs.

A previous poster was correct in asserting Canada's system is most similar to that of California's. All med schools in Canada are part of public universities (we don't really have private universities up here), and thus many have obligations to take preference towards residents of their own province (or in some cases, like U of Ottawa, preference towards those in the surrounding region). Med school admissions is quite competitive in Canada - in Ontario (the largest province with 6 of the 13 English-language med schools), only 16.2% of all applicants who filed an application matriculated in any school in the province. Individual school rates of admission in Ontario ranged from 3.2% to 8.5%. Even McGill mostly takes Quebecers, but does take a batch of internationals (both to bolster its international prestige and, as an English institution in a French province, plays by some different rules).

Most schools other than McGill do not take many internationals (if at all), and thus are likely not worth applying to. McMaster is the only school that only looks at the VR section of the MCAT, but in any case they take no more than one international per year (if even that).

Bannie32's assertion that "Quality of education in American is Better" is laughable at best, and smacks of American elitism at worst. An education at a Canadian university is top-notch, and on some international med school rankings (such as the Gorman Report, despite its mysterious methodology), Canadian schools on average rank higher than their US counterparts. Going to a school like McGill or U of T would provide you with an excellent education that compares only to top US or European institutions. With not many med schools in Canada, I would say that the quality remains high across the board. However, as I mentioned before, matriculant data over the past few years suggests that high-quality Canadian medical education is reserved for Canadians, with the exception of McGill. There are many residency and fellowship positions available for those educated outside of Canada and/or who are not citizens/residents of Canada.

As my SDN username suggests, I am Canadian, completed my undergrad here, and currently attend a graduate program in Canada. I am happy to answer any questions on admissions up here, but must admit my knowledge of admissions to French Canadian schools is limited.

First of all, if you are going to quote me, quote me entirely. Do not just quote me just for areas in which you want to insinuate that my comments are laughable while at the same time not giving me the "credit" for describing the admission systems appropriately.

Sorry to disappoint you, but I am not from America and have at times on the forum been lambasted for being pro-Canadian.

I just speak the facts.

Compared to many American schools, Canadian schools lack early patient contact, which is often the primary desire of any physician.


You noted Uoft and McGill, but the same cannot be spoken for the rest of the schools. (I'll even give you UBC for crying out loud)

You simply cannot suggest that 3 good schools give Canada parity with the dozens of good schools in the States.

If anything, many Asian universities or UK universities (Oxford/Cambridge) sit above us.

And we aren't Ivy, UofT is an amaazzing schoool. But its value is not a sniff close to the Ivys...

Take this from an international student having been to different parts of the world.

 

[schrizto]

I have several friends playing D1 hockey here in the states who are from up North. I wondered why some elite players would turn down a full ride scholarship to a school here in the states to instead play in the CIS for one of these schools. Then my friends told me that some of these schools are comparable to Ivy's....so I believe what you are saying.

It might not have been the factor of academics but because hockey is huge in Canada. I'd imagine because of how popular hockey is up there that the schools would have hockey teams that are really well funded and supported. If someone were a really fantastic hockey player who possibly wanted to go pro one of their top priorities would probably be a school with a good team.

 

[bannie22]

It might not have been the factor of academics but because hockey is huge in Canada. I'd imagine because of how popular hockey is up there that the schools would have hockey teams that are really well funded and supported. If someone were a really fantastic hockey player who possibly wanted to go pro one of their top priorities would probably be a school with a good team.

👍

I think this reasoning was the obvious one.

UofT/McGill/UBC are great schools though, I won't take away anything from them because heck, I'm from UofT.

But we aren't Ivy. Our admissions process are Ivy-LIKE. But I would like to consider ourselves different, whether good or bad, than Ivy.

We are a fantastic research institute, amazing campus... great place to be, but we are UofT, and we should have pride in that.

 

[marble30]

👍

I think this reasoning was the obvious one.

UofT/McGill/UBC are great schools though, I won't take away anything from them because heck, I'm from UofT.

But we aren't Ivy. Our admissions process are Ivy-LIKE. But I would like to consider ourselves different, whether good or bad, than Ivy.

We are a fantastic research institute, amazing campus... great place to be, but we are UofT, and we should have pride in that.

UBC FTW!

I'm biased, I admit it. 😀

 

[Longshanks]

Aren't GPAs done different in Canada too? I met a student from Canada who made a comment similar to that anyone competent can get at least 3.85 there. Its a different scale or something. While this individual struggled to surpass 3.4/3.5 here in the States.

 

[Hoody]

It might not have been the factor of academics but because hockey is huge in Canada. I'd imagine because of how popular hockey is up there that the schools would have hockey teams that are really well funded and supported. If someone were a really fantastic hockey player who possibly wanted to go pro one of their top priorities would probably be a school with a good team.

Yeah, you're absolutely correct. I was referring to the women's programs...which changes things a bit, but I failed to mention that anywhere. My bad.

 

[canada1311]

First of all, if you are going to quote me, quote me entirely. Do not just quote me just for areas in which you want to insinuate that my comments are laughable while at the same time not giving me the "credit" for describing the admission systems appropriately.

Sorry to disappoint you, but I am not from America and have at times on the forum been lambasted for being pro-Canadian.

I just speak the facts.

Compared to many American schools, Canadian schools lack early patient contact, which is often the primary desire of any physician.


You noted Uoft and McGill, but the same cannot be spoken for the rest of the schools. (I'll even give you UBC for crying out loud)

You simply cannot suggest that 3 good schools give Canada parity with the dozens of good schools in the States.

If anything, many Asian universities or UK universities (Oxford/Cambridge) sit above us.

And we aren't Ivy, UofT is an amaazzing schoool. But its value is not a sniff close to the Ivys...

Take this from an international student having been to different parts of the world.

Many schools in Canada have early patient contact. I definitely do think schools like U of T and McGill are different than Ivy's, but certainly comparable in terms of overall quality. Just as you said, "You simply cannot suggest that 3 good schools give Canada parity with the dozens of good schools in the States," by that same logic, you cannot paint all US schools as superior because the Ivy League schools are great.

In any case, I never meant this thread to degrade into a Canada vs. US firefight. Rather, I want to provide some facts for others with questions about Canadian medical schools, and dispel any patently false notions that going to Canada is akin to getting an inferior medical education. Med students up here have access to premier hospitals, great faculty, huge patient populations in urban areas, and beautiful and historic campuses.

To address Longshanks' question, the grading scales in the US and Canada are different. Usually, schools in Canada and the US have special GPA conversion charts/algorithms for applicants from the other country to account for this. For reference, go to the following website and click on "Conversion Table 2010" to see how our marks (our Canadian term for grades) are converted to GPAs for medical schools in Ontario:

http://www.ouac.on.ca/omsas/omsas-answers.html

 

[bannie22]

Many schools in Canada have early patient contact. I definitely do think schools like U of T and McGill are different than Ivy's, but certainly comparable in terms of overall quality. Just as you said, "You simply cannot suggest that 3 good schools give Canada parity with the dozens of good schools in the States," by that same logic, you cannot paint all US schools as superior because the Ivy League schools are great.

In any case, I never meant this thread to degrade into a Canada vs. US firefight. Rather, I want to provide some facts for others with questions about Canadian medical schools, and dispel any patently false notions that going to Canada is akin to getting an inferior medical education. Med students up here have access to premier hospitals, great faculty, huge patient populations in urban areas, and beautiful and historic campuses.

To address Longshanks' question, the grading scales in the US and Canada are different. Usually, schools in Canada and the US have special GPA conversion charts/algorithms for applicants from the other country to account for this. For reference, go to the following website and click on "Conversion Table 2010" to see how our marks (our Canadian term for grades) are converted to GPAs for medical schools in Ontario:

http://www.ouac.on.ca/omsas/omsas-answers.html

Exactly! how can you say because we have 3 good schools that we are parity with the American education. I never painted the American as superior, but the EDUCATION is better. WHY? Because theres around 8 Ivys that >>> our Big 3. And after Ivy's, there are the Ivy Pluses, the UCs... And outside of med school, look at Caltech/MIT....

It would be slightly egoistic to say that we are on par. No country in the world is on par with the States.
Lets put it this way. Even if you are going to say Our Big 3 = their Big 3. Our 4th comes nowhere close to their 4th, our 5th comes no where close to their 5th... on and on...

At the bottom, there probably isnt much of a difference, but those schools arent exactly dishin out the best education anyway right?

Are you sure? Its really only the Big 3 once again.

You give us too much credit regrading us as Ivy.

Regardless, to one other previous poster. No, I believe it is actually harder to get a good GPA in Canada because like we said, none of the schools here are private (and give out free As) and they enjoy keeping their C average.

 

[bannie22]

Yes but you have to apply to the ones that take internatinal students. I think Tufts and BU might, but Wayne state definitely does. Look in the MSAR. I don't have one on me or I'd tell you.

Nevermind, I found this post on here when googling the answer to that.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=6930357&postcount=3

It says the schools which have asteriks have taken canadians before.

I think OP is asking if any med schools in Canada take internationals.

I wouldnt bet on getting in if you are international.

But yes, in our great province of Ontario, two glorious schools accepts internationals. big Mac and UofT 👍

Mcgill and UBC would also accept internationals. I think Mcgill has the biggest raw number, so apply there if you are going to apply anywhere at all. 👍

 

[bannie22]

Oh oops my bad!!!

Yeah that is another whole story altogether. I'm sure some of them would consider american citizens, BUT here's the catch.

From what I've read on here its a lot tougher to get in Canadian schools even for canadians. The strict cutoff system they have with MCAT scores i.e. you could have a good score overall but be below in a certain given section including writing and that would disqualify you and they are hard even for canadians to get into so getting in as a US citizen would be harder. I'm not sure if there's a point in applying but you could if you have the money just to see what happens.

I am seeing right now, when I will get my rejection letter at the cost of $400.

 

[JC2]

I'm going to have to disagree with canada1311's assertions (and before you accuse me of anything - 1) I'm Canadian, 2) I go to one of these "big three" institutions and always argue FOR my university in these "prestige" arguments and 3) I have applied to both Canada and the U.S. and don't have a real preference either way)

If you've actually been to any American schools, toured their hospitals, etc. You will notice they are much larger (and better technology - Sunnybrook has two MRI machines man, come on ... I've been nothing short of impressed at nearly every American school I've attended and I've spent years in multiple hospitals around U of T). The research opportunities ARE, by far, better in the U.S. (any graduate set of rankings will show this - outside of the big three, you won't get other instutitions ranked even in the top 100 most often) and the environment is considerably more positive (you can even see this reflected in the interviews - American interviews are relaxed, Canadian interviews are stressful).

I wouldn't call Bannie's views elitist and I don't think you should be so quick to accuse him as such. Any set of "rankings" will more or less support what he has said, and if cost weren't an issue the States usually win out.



Regarding the original poster, it is extremely difficult to get into most Canadian schools. They are HIGHLY numbers-oriented (of the please have a LizzyM > 75 with a GPA of 3.8-3.9) outside of Ontario as well as inside (though, with the latter, it is more GPA and barely any MCAT at all). Nevertheless, I would do some research to look for friendly Canadian schools before firing applications off blindly. Good luck.

 

[bannie22]

^

As Rafa Benitez always says, "I speak the facts."

And so does Bannie.

Yeah my GPA is 3.81 AMCAS, 3.77 OMSAS.
Even with a 3.77, my LizzyM is still 76.7 though.
HAHAHAHA

But im international, so ... meh. too bad for me.

I love Canada though, not everything, but some aspects, such as the multiculturalism... it cant be found anywhere else in the world (at least the places o-so-insignificant me has been to)

 

[MeRLin443]

As Rafa Benitez always says, "I speak the facts."

Compared to many American schools, Canadian schools lack early patient contact, which is often the primary desire of any physician.

Oh really? Because I'm positive the opposite of that is true.

And we aren't Ivy, UofT is an amaazzing schoool. But its value is not a sniff close to the Ivys...

8 Ivys that >>> our Big 3

Really? Dartmouth is much, much, much greater than U of T, or McGill, or any major school in Canada for that matter? No chance. Stop drinking the kool-aid. Plus, who the heck came up w/ "the Big 3" (not 'your' big three). I've never heard nonsense like that before.

Are you sure? Its really only the Big 3 once again.
In response to Med students up here have access to premier hospitals, great faculty, huge patient populations in urban areas, and beautiful and historic campuses

1311's comment is on the nose. Almost all Canadian schools are associated with major hospitals in urban centres.

I don't mean to be critical, but you really don't have a clue on this one. Maybe you haven't been here long, and don't know any physicians, or much about the hospitals and medical system around the country? The fact is medical training at a Canadian medical school is as good as you will receive anywhere in the United States or the world.

 

[Little Monkey]

There are many misconceptions and truths on this thread, a few which I should comment on.

University of Sherbrooke is a school where classes are taught in French (Quebec is a French-speaking province). The MCATs are not required for admission to French schools because the MCATs are not offered in French. The University of Montreal and Laval University are two other French isntitutions. The University of Ottawa is officially a bilingual institution (French and English), and also does not require the MCATs.

A previous poster was correct in asserting Canada's system is most similar to that of California's. All med schools in Canada are part of public universities (we don't really have private universities up here), and thus many have obligations to take preference towards residents of their own province (or in some cases, like U of Ottawa, preference towards those in the surrounding region). Med school admissions is quite competitive in Canada - in Ontario (the largest province with 6 of the 13 English-language med schools), only 16.2% of all applicants who filed an application matriculated in any school in the province. Individual school rates of admission in Ontario ranged from 3.2% to 8.5%. Even McGill mostly takes Quebecers, but does take a batch of internationals (both to bolster its international prestige and, as an English institution in a French province, plays by some different rules).

Most schools other than McGill do not take many internationals (if at all), and thus are likely not worth applying to. McMaster is the only school that only looks at the VR section of the MCAT, but in any case they take no more than one international per year (if even that).

Bannie32's assertion that "Quality of education in American is Better" is laughable at best, and smacks of American elitism at worst. An education at a Canadian university is top-notch, and on some international med school rankings (such as the Gorman Report, despite its mysterious methodology), Canadian schools on average rank higher than their US counterparts. Going to a school like McGill or U of T would provide you with an excellent education that compares only to top US or European institutions. With not many med schools in Canada, I would say that the quality remains high across the board. However, as I mentioned before, matriculant data over the past few years suggests that high-quality Canadian medical education is reserved for Canadians, with the exception of McGill. There are many residency and fellowship positions available for those educated outside of Canada and/or who are not citizens/residents of Canada.

As my SDN username suggests, I am Canadian, completed my undergrad here, and currently attend a graduate program in Canada. I am happy to answer any questions on admissions up here, but must admit my knowledge of admissions to French Canadian schools is limited.

Thank you for being a rational voice on this forum. i am a canadian who has been rejected from many canadian schools, unlike some people on this forum, i try not to express this with anger and bitterness. Yes, the system is not always fair....deal with it!

 

[canada1311]

A few things to keep in mind:

Canada is a much smaller country than the US with purely public educational institutions. Just like state schools, most publics schools have a mandate to "take care of their own." Furthermore, we have less schools than the US to train a smaller population, but that does not affect the quality of an individual school's education, but rather the options with which internationals (and Canadians have to choose from when applying).

All Canadian medical schools are accredited by the AAMC. When debating whether to apply to Canada, unfounded concerns about the quality of education in Canada should not affect one's decisions. Factors one should consider are:

1) Your chance of getting one of a few spots for internationals considering your characteristics and the criteria Canadian schools set out in their selection process

2) Personal preferences in terms of school characteristics (e.g. urban, size, etc.)

3) Normal concerns about going to another country or far from home

4) Your ability to deal with a Canadian climate (some cities are damn cold, others not so bad)

 

[zayka]

I think that if you are a US citizen thinking about applying to a Canadian school, you should ask yourself why you want to? Do you want to move and practice in Canada? Then, maybe you should apply. There are usually a few Americans in the schools that do accept internationals. The quality of med education in Canada is fine, but it's not really easier to get into schools than in the US. Also, in the US, there are several programs that are very unique and I would say that for my goals, they are superior to, say, U of T.

In my opinion, I think if you are a US citizen, you are so lucky to be able to apply to US schools without checking off the "International" box, having many schools available to you, and being eligible for federal monies. Personally, I would go to most US schools over Canadian ones in a heartbeat despite the more expensive tuition (that's just my opinion).

 

[PermanentWaves]

If you've actually been to any American schools, toured their hospitals, etc. You will notice they are much larger (and better technology - Sunnybrook has two MRI machines man, come on ... I've been nothing short of impressed at nearly every American school I've attended and I've spent years in multiple hospitals around U of T). The research opportunities ARE, by far, better in the U.S. (any graduate set of rankings will show this - outside of the big three, you won't get other instutitions ranked even in the top 100 most often)

Not to get this thread too far off course, but I have to address the claims made by Bannie and the one quoted above.

The assertion that no one is even close to America in terms of quality of education and research is just absolutely asinine. I've been to American schools myself, including top 50s (Mayo, WUSTL, Stanford, Georgetown, Dartmouth, etc) and lower-tiered schools as well. Some of these schools are incredible (namely Mayo, Stanford and WUSTL), but I wouldn't say that they are leaps and bounds better than the top Canadian schools. I mean, just walk through the hospitals on University avenue in Toronto. If you're not impressed by them, then I'm not sure what your expectations are. At one of my interviews at WUSTL, I mentioned to the physician interviewing me that our lab was collaborating with a lab at Sick Kids. I didn't think he had heard of it, so I said that it was one of the best pediatric hospitals in the country. The faculty member stopped me (a pathologist, btw) and said "The country? Son, Sick Kids is one of the best pediatric hospitals in the world. Everyone knows that."

You conveniently mention Sunnybrook (incidentally one of our most peripherally related hospitals), but decline to mention Princess Margaret, Sick Kids, TGH, TWH, Mt Sinai (incl SLRI) and St. Michael's. Princess Margaret Hospital is one of the top cancer centers on the planet, and the Samuel Lunenfeld Research Institute at Mt. Sinai is world-renowned. Run a PubMed search of the scientists at SLRI and you can see that they EASILY stack up against any institution in the world. All you would have to do is flip through Science, Nature, Nat Med, Cell, JCI, NEJM, etc. and see that every week there is a U of T or McGill paper in at least one of these major journals. How many US institutions could you say that about? A handful, at best. Sure, you can't really compare Harvard/Stanford/Yale/MIT with UWO and Queen's, but you'd be foolish to think that those schools are representative of all American schools. Also, if you were to look at the top schools for publications and citations (I'm not talking about subjective rankings here, I'm talking about statistics), you will find U of T in the top 10 every year, McGill usually in the top 20, and tons of international research schools/institutions like Max Planck, ETH Zurich, and the University of Tokyo also in the top 10. The gap between American institutions and others around the world is slim, if not non-existent.

 

[zayka]

At one of my interviews at WUSTL, I mentioned to the physician interviewing me that our lab was collaborating with a lab at Sick Kids. I didn't think he had heard of it, so I said that it was one of the best pediatric hospitals in the country. The faculty member stopped me (a pathologist, btw) and said "The country? Son, Sick Kids is one of the best pediatric hospitals in the world. Everyone knows that."

I am biased, but I just want to mention that SickKids is the shiznitt. (Technically, it's ranked #2 worldwide and #1 North America).

 

[canada1311]

I think that if you are a US citizen thinking about applying to a Canadian school, you should ask yourself why you want to? Do you want to move and practice in Canada? Then, maybe you should apply. There are usually a few Americans in the schools that do accept internationals. The quality of med education in Canada is fine, but it's not really easier to get into schools than in the US. Also, in the US, there are several programs that are very unique and I would say that for my goals, they are superior to, say, U of T.

Well, in terms of McGill (the only Canadian school that takes a sizable amount of internationals per year, according to the MSAR), it may be worth applying to increase your chances. McGill is top-notch school situated in an amazing (albeit cold) city (Montreal), with access to an excellent medical community. It's also relatively affordable ($24,822 per year for international tuition). Just under 50% of all international applicants last year were interviewed, which ain't bad at all.

To clarify, it is very possible to be educated in Canada and subsequently practice and live in the US (whether you are a US or Canadian citizen) -- in fact, it was very common in the 1990s, leading to it being termed "the brain drain." I also have an uncle that received his medical education at McGill, and now practices in California. In terms of eligibility for US residencies after coming out of Canadian schools, I have been told that about 40 states will accept Canadian medical licensing exams and not make residency applicants take the USMLEs, whereas the others require USMLEs.

 

[JC2]

Not to get this thread too far off course, but I have to address the claims made by Bannie and the one quoted above.

The assertion that no one is even close to America in terms of quality of education and research is just absolutely asinine. I've been to American schools myself, including top 50s (Mayo, WUSTL, Stanford, Georgetown, Dartmouth, etc) and lower-tiered schools as well. Some of these schools are incredible (namely Mayo, Stanford and WUSTL), but I wouldn't say that they are leaps and bounds better than the top Canadian schools. I mean, just walk through the hospitals on University avenue in Toronto. If you're not impressed by them, then I'm not sure what your expectations are. At one of my interviews at WUSTL, I mentioned to the physician interviewing me that our lab was collaborating with a lab at Sick Kids. I didn't think he had heard of it, so I said that it was one of the best pediatric hospitals in the country. The faculty member stopped me (a pathologist, btw) and said "The country? Son, Sick Kids is one of the best pediatric hospitals in the world. Everyone knows that."

You conveniently mention Sunnybrook (incidentally one of our most peripherally related hospitals), but decline to mention Princess Margaret, Sick Kids, TGH, TWH, Mt Sinai (incl SLRI) and St. Michael's. Princess Margaret Hospital is one of the top cancer centers on the planet, and the Samuel Lunenfeld Research Institute at Mt. Sinai is world-renowned. Run a PubMed search of the scientists at SLRI and you can see that they EASILY stack up against any institution in the world. All you would have to do is flip through Science, Nature, Nat Med, Cell, JCI, NEJM, etc. and see that every week there is a U of T or McGill paper in at least one of these major journals. How many US institutions could you say that about? A handful, at best. Sure, you can't really compare Harvard/Stanford/Yale/MIT with UWO and Queen's, but you'd be foolish to think that those schools are representative of all American schools. Also, if you were to look at the top schools for publications and citations (I'm not talking about subjective rankings here, I'm talking about statistics), you will find U of T in the top 10 every year, McGill usually in the top 20, and tons of international research schools/institutions like Max Planck, ETH Zurich, and the University of Tokyo also in the top 10. The gap between American institutions and others around the world is slim, if not non-existent.

I don't want to derail this thread so I sent you a P.M. with my response. To summarize in a few words: (as I honestly feel the above poster distorted my views)
- Canadian schools are great. You will get a fine education anywhere. (<-- original poster, read this sentence ... how did we even get this far sidetracked?)
- You are seriously underestimating the clinical experiences at American schools. I've volunteered or done research in most of the hospitals you just mentioned. They are literally what I am comparing the American schools to.

My point is, basically, the top Canadian institutions (like U of T) are every bit as good as you just described. What you didn't pick up (or don't realize) from my post is that there are a good ten-twenty (this entirely depends on your opinion of the top Canadian school in question) that are _better_ (even if only a little bit better).

 

[JC2]

And I'll chime in on this conversation for the very last time by stating I agree with everything that was written in the post above this one.

 

[The Enchanter]

A couple years ago I was in Montreal and decided to visit McGill. I had set up an appointment with somebody in admissions and she told me that the current class had 4 Americans in it and they all 4.0 or very close to 4.0 undergrad GPAs. She made it very clear that yes, they do accept international students but only top students who clearly have a good reason for wanting to go to school in Canada.

 

[bannie22]

Not to get this thread too far off course, but I have to address the claims made by Bannie and the one quoted above.

The assertion that no one is even close to America in terms of quality of education and research is just absolutely asinine. I've been to American schools myself, including top 50s (Mayo, WUSTL, Stanford, Georgetown, Dartmouth, etc) and lower-tiered schools as well. Some of these schools are incredible (namely Mayo, Stanford and WUSTL), but I wouldn't say that they are leaps and bounds better than the top Canadian schools. I mean, just walk through the hospitals on University avenue in Toronto. If you're not impressed by them, then I'm not sure what your expectations are. At one of my interviews at WUSTL, I mentioned to the physician interviewing me that our lab was collaborating with a lab at Sick Kids. I didn't think he had heard of it, so I said that it was one of the best pediatric hospitals in the country. The faculty member stopped me (a pathologist, btw) and said "The country? Son, Sick Kids is one of the best pediatric hospitals in the world. Everyone knows that."

You conveniently mention Sunnybrook (incidentally one of our most peripherally related hospitals), but decline to mention Princess Margaret, Sick Kids, TGH, TWH, Mt Sinai (incl SLRI) and St. Michael's. Princess Margaret Hospital is one of the top cancer centers on the planet, and the Samuel Lunenfeld Research Institute at Mt. Sinai is world-renowned. Run a PubMed search of the scientists at SLRI and you can see that they EASILY stack up against any institution in the world. All you would have to do is flip through Science, Nature, Nat Med, Cell, JCI, NEJM, etc. and see that every week there is a U of T or McGill paper in at least one of these major journals. How many US institutions could you say that about? A handful, at best. Sure, you can't really compare Harvard/Stanford/Yale/MIT with UWO and Queen's, but you'd be foolish to think that those schools are representative of all American schools. Also, if you were to look at the top schools for publications and citations (I'm not talking about subjective rankings here, I'm talking about statistics), you will find U of T in the top 10 every year, McGill usually in the top 20, and tons of international research schools/institutions like Max Planck, ETH Zurich, and the University of Tokyo also in the top 10. The gap between American institutions and others around the world is slim, if not non-existent.

There you go, you just Top 50s and none of them are leaps and bounds BETTER than Canadian schools.

In Ontario, there is only one TOP school you can speak of, which is our great UofT! 😀

And yet, 50, are just as good as UofT.

I think our discussion has ended.

Nobody said Canada was thrash, but just like I am going to go by the facts, I'm not going ot say that Singapore, which has one of the best health care systems in the World, famous for medical tourism, many Firsts in the world, such as separating Siamese twins (abeit to failure I believe), or the First and Only heart transplant center in the region (the fake heart thing).

But we only have a couple of schools, and a couple will never compare to 50 you just spoke of.

America has 50 good schools, Canada would do well to find 50 schools...
And thats pretty damn good!🙂

 

[bannie22]

But when you say 10-20 schools that may be better then the best Canadian school you again forget how many magnitudes more our total number of schools are compared to the smaller number of total schools in Canada. That's why it is so easy to see it as there being more good schools here.

Bottomline: Both schools are great. Will you get into a Canadian school as a US citizen? Chances are ULTRA SLIM due to fierce competition. There's a reason a lot of Canadians are desperate to come to the US and I'll give you a hint. it is not because of quality of medical education. It is because lack of seats and how hard it is to get into Canadian schools. Its the same premise behind why so many californians are forced to move the east coast from west coast.

I totally agree with this, but what I am interested in RAW score. Not a cumulative score, if not really, you can go anywhere in the world and get the sickest education. Just go to Oxford, go to UofTokyo, go to all the top institutions around the world.

But at the end of the day, if we were to compare top with top.... well, by all means, tell me UofT = Harvard... it would serve to make most of us here happier people 🙂😎


UofT > Harvard/Oxford/Todai... tell me if I left out any representative universities aroudn the globe...