$$$is it worth it$$$

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Jbrowndds

Jbrowndds

SMILE ON!!!
10+ Year Member
I was in the dentaltown forums and OMG!!!! Dentists had debt from 339,000 to 4 million dollars. I'm scared that I would have worked my butt off just to have to live like a fry cook. I am only applying to my home state schools (Texas). My husband will be working and paying half of my tuition and books. Here if you don't count living expenses school cost $25-$30k per year. I guess that forum just freak me out. I love dentistry but dang. 4 million dollars in debt. It that even heard of?
 
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+1 on owning assets that produce revenue vs eductaional/personal debt.

If you own capital you own the world.

OP: Focus on areas where you have choices vs don't have choices to take out debt.

To become a dentist you don't have any other choice but to go to dental school. It sounds like you have a great plan by attending the cheapest school and having your SO cover living costs. You will really limit your educational debt.

After you graduate you will have a large range of choices as dentist. You can buy a practice and work towards paying off an office or work as an associate and not take on any debt. At this point going in 4mill would be a personal choice rather than a requirement to becoming a dentist.

GL
 
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Jbrowndds said:
I was in the dentaltown forums and OMG!!!! Dentists had debt from 339,000 to 4 million dollars. I'm scared that I would have worked my butt off just to have to live like a fry cook. I am only applying to my home state schools (Texas). My husband will be working and paying half of my tuition and books. Here if you don't count living expenses school cost $25-$30k per year. I guess that forum just freak me out. I love dentistry but dang. 4 million dollars in debt. It that even heard of?
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You'll be fine.
 
I second what everyone else is saying. In general, the people who worry about taking on debt and take steps to minimize it aren't the ones who get in over their heads. It sounds like you have a good head on your shoulders and are doing what you can to keep your debt small. You'll be OK.
 
300 K possible......4 mil...what. Hopefullly that law will pass so that college graduates pay just enough of the loan where it to cancel. Just ask some dentist how they canceled their debt.
 
Life Sucks said:
300 K possible......4 mil...what. Hopefullly that law will pass so that college graduates pay just enough of the loan where it to cancel. Just ask some dentist how they canceled their debt.
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What are you saying? Can you please re-write what you meant to say, it might have some value but got lost in the message.
 
Supposedly Obama is passing a law that eliminates your loans after you pay so much on them.
 
Jbrowndds said:
I would google it. My cousins told me about it yesterday. I don't know if its 100% true. But that's what Life Sucks was talking about.
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I don't think its true. When I google, all I can come up with is a plan put forth earlier this year that mostly addresses undergrad debt.

'...the bill allows future enrollees in the program to receive forgiveness up to a limit of $45,520 after paying up to 10 percent of discretionary income for 10 years...'

Doesn't do much for a dental school debt.
 
Like most folks have said here, don't worry about debt so long as you minimize it while in school and pay it off right away. To put it into perspective, I needed to take around 80K of loans for undergrad and in the 1.5-2 years I've been working I've paid them off and my job isn't exactly...financially windthralling. If I can do that in this economic climate I am sure I'll manage when I have a good job. With all your wise planning you'll be 100% fine.

On the bigger issue of student debt, I am all for minimizing the plight of the student but quite honestly, if you're going to college and pursuing something fruitful, you should be able to pay back the loan amount. The only reason you can't is you were the victim of tragic circumstances and either contracted an illness or sustained an injury. Otherwise the student just pursued something silly or paid WAY too much for their education with no plan of how to use it!
 
Yeah I think I'll be fine. As long as I stay away from schools with heavy price tags like NYU and crazy Vegas trips lol. My husband and I tried to plan it so I can pay off my tuition in a year or 2. Like I said I love dentistry but I also like the idea of working hard in school so I don't have to live check to check anymore. I keep hearing that dentist make $150k + right out of school but then I see $80k-$120k. That's still good but not good if you're $300k-$400k in the hole. That's like 2 mortgages here in Texas. Actually more like 2-4 lol.
 
gethscout said:
Those days are long gone. 🙁 People are putting off restorative work and general dentists are doing their best not to refer cases out. Lighters schedules for everyone... new associates will be feeling the brunt of it.

The platinum age of dentistry was 2003-2008 and it was no coincidence that it was tied up with the credit boom pre-2008 economic meltdown era. A LOT of people lost dental insurance and access to easy credit since then. The WHOLE profession pretty much relies on the baby boomers now and the oldest of them are now entering retirement and pinching pennies long-term. Once they transition to Medicare do you think they will give a damn about dental insurance and be able to pay out of pocket as much as they did in 2003-2008 for any of the high margin dental work?

Schools like UOP, USC, Penn, NYU are milking students for all their worth because naive predents don't think about any of this until it's time to sign the promissory note... they keep pushing this platinum age myth because it's more tuition money for them. Just look at how dental school is currently THE MOST EXPENSIVE of all the professional options (medicine, law, business, etc.) The writing's on the wall now... look how the many underemployed new grads out there are flocking to the corporate greed chains.

jbrown, you still have time to pull out now, think about hygiene or even step up your effort and consider medicine (PA or nurse, even) because it's a safer bet with a much better return on investment. Dentistry's outlook is worse than Pharm and Podiatry now.
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How much does a dentist make a year then. Now I'm officially freaked out.
 
gethscout said:
. Dentistry's outlook is worse than Pharm and Podiatry now.
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You make some good points, but this part is way off base. Podiatry is a joke. As a general dentist with your own practice working 4 days/week you will make $200k. That's better than half of the GP docs out there.

Pharm is also in a bad place, Walgreens hires at $115k and works you like a slave.
 
gethscout said:
Those days are long gone. 🙁 People are putting off restorative work and general dentists are doing their best not to refer cases out. Lighters schedules for everyone... new associates will be feeling the brunt of it.

The platinum age of dentistry was 2003-2008 and it was no coincidence that it was tied up with the credit boom pre-2008 economic meltdown era. A LOT of people lost dental insurance and access to easy credit since then. The WHOLE profession pretty much relies on the baby boomers now and the oldest of them are now entering retirement and pinching pennies long-term. Once they transition to Medicare do you think they will give a damn about dental insurance and be able to pay out of pocket as much as they did in 2003-2008 for any of the high margin dental work?

Schools like UOP, USC, Penn, NYU are milking students for all their worth because naive predents don't think about any of this until it's time to sign the promissory note... they keep pushing this platinum age myth because it's more tuition money for them. Just look at how dental school is currently THE MOST EXPENSIVE of all the professional options (medicine, law, business, etc.) The writing's on the wall now... look how the many underemployed new grads out there are flocking to the corporate greed chains.

jbrown, you still have time to pull out now, think about hygiene or even step up your effort and consider medicine (PA or nurse, even) because it's a safer bet with a much better return on investment. Dentistry's outlook is worse than Pharm and Podiatry now.
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Have you ever shadowed before? Know any newer dental grads?
 
Svande8952 said:
As a general dentist with your own practice working 4 days/week you will make $200k. That's better than half of the GP docs out there.
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This is only for people that own their practice and are more likely 20 or so years into their career. There's no telling if that will be true of our generation. We have much higher debt loads and an uncertain economic outlook.
 
I have never seen a dentist first hand that made less than 180k unless they were a grad in which case they seem to be getting 140-160k around here. most around here are in the 450k who own their office and practice. I talked to a few about the BLS figure on 140k as the average and they seemed shocked that it was that low.
 
little Buddy IIRC, BLS refers to dentists who are employed not employers. OP, if you're "scared" of the debt, why didn't you plug it into some repayment calculator? Making a forum post about this topic seems pretty pointless; especially considering you're not going to even approach the 300k mark, let alone half of that.
 
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Shazzam said:
little Buddy IIRC, BLS refers to dentists who are employed not employers. OP, if you're "scared" of the debt, why didn't you plug it into some repayment calculator? Making a forum post about this topic seems pretty pointless; especially considering you're not going to even approach the 300k mark, let alone half of that.
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I hate these trite threads. Take responsibility for your life and figure out your financials by yourself.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=868931
 
First of all I'm just starting school okay. I'm coming to y'all because you have been there and done that. It's a simple question. Don't scorn me for asking. I got a lot of good advice and maybe opened up someone's eyes as well. I was worried about debt building up. Like school, practice, and personal. I was pretty much asking if there is light at the end of the tunnel. So much for asking. Thank you to those who weren't rude.
 
Reality Posted by Silent Cool in the Dental Forum:

So I just emailed a dentist on dentaltown. These were my questions and the response I got:

Question:

"In the thread, you posted what Midwestern U. said were the income averages for GP and Specialist, but you said each was BS. Would you comment a little on that? Also, do you think it would be reasonable to attend a school like BU or NYU, where the graduating loan balance would be $550K+? Also, what is a reasonable income for a GP who owns the practice?"


Response:

The statistics that Midwestern University were from around 2006 if I remember correctly. Incomes have dropped 15% at least since then due to the recession. Were those statistics correct in the first place? That is questionable. Those incomes would be for a doctor that owned his own practice. These days fewer and fewer docs are looking to own thier practice due to the time committment and stress. That is fine but your income will always be lower if you are not the owner. I don't know if those stats also considered associates and doctors that practiced part time. Most docs I know that are making 250k or more are in their late 40s and 50s. It takes awhile to build a practice that allows that amount of income. What I don't like is that schools make it sound like those stats are a starting salary. Not even close.
When I got out in 2006, the average for a GP associate was 80-100k. Since then, it has dropped. Probably closer to 80k now due to the recession. It will get better but many associates can only find part time work. Now imagine having 550k in loans and making 80-100k a year. That is absurdity. You have to remember, to get to that 200k plus level it may take 10 years or more. You have to be an owner to make that kind of money. In order to be an owner, you need to buy or start a practice. That's MORE debt.
I think the turning point of student debt versus dentistry is probably about 250k in student loan debt. My partner and I talk about this all the time and agree that if you have more than this in student loan debt, it's not worth it. That's another mortgage you're paying. 550K in student loans? No way. Don't even consider it. You end up with a hire net worth being a plumber, trust me.
Another thing about dental specialties... they don't make as much as you may think. When the economy goes through it's cycles of recession, specialties get hit the hardest. Plus, competition among specialists is very competititive. For several years, students thought that going into a specialty was a sure thing to a higher income, thus more applicants lead to a glut of specialists out there... I have 4-5 endodontists within a mile of me. There really is only a need for 1 or 2.
In a nutshell, there is no sure thing anymore in dentistry. Be careful what you read on DT as people like to brag about how much they make to make themselves appear successful. For each guy that brags that he's making over 300k a year (if you can believe him), there's 100 docs not posting that make 120k. This is a pretty good gig if you can keep your student loan debt low. If not, consider another profession until the student loan bubble bursts.
To answer your last question, for a GP that owns his own practice and all loans are paid off, a reasonable take home would be 150-250k. The caveat is that this doctor is usually in his late 40s, early 50s and his practice has been paid for and has been growing for 10 plus years. This is where you make the most and your income usually plateaus (top of the bell curve). For a new practice owner, a reasonable take home is 0k-150k.
Hope this helps.
 
Jbrowndds said:
First of all I'm just starting school okay. I'm coming to y'all because you have been there and done that. It's a simple question. Don't scorn me for asking. I got a lot of good advice and maybe opened up someone's eyes as well. I was worried about debt building up. Like school, practice, and personal. I was pretty much asking if there is light at the end of the tunnel. So much for asking. Thank you to those who weren't rude.
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Please forgive the brevity on this forum. It is easy for some of us to get annoyed at seeing a lot of the same types of threads popping up.

As for your situation, I would be freaked out as well... but only if you were going to be 350k+ in dept lol. From the sounds of it, you will only be looking at around 120K of debt, which is nothing to worry about. For some, it is hard (frustrating maybe) to see someone who is only going to be in for 120K worried about the loans, when the majority of those on this forum who are with loans will be sitting with at least double that or more. All said and done, feel free to use my excel sheet that UCSFx2016 posted up. It will give you a better idea of how the cashflows might affect you. Best of luck! :luck:👍
 
It's hard now living check to check with my husband and I both full time students. We make $1600 a month together. So it's really hard right now. $60k sounds like a lot of money right now. But I'm glad I have nothing to worry about. Thanks
 
You mentioned that you're younger as you just started college; however, now is a good time in your life to view what most people tell you (especially on the internet) as BS. Look at the facts, that you've found and verified, and make your own decisions.





Jbrowndds said:
It's hard now living check to check with my husband and I both full time students. We make $1600 a month together. So it's really hard right now. $60k sounds like a lot of money right now. But I'm glad I have nothing to worry about. Thanks
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Jbrowndds said:
If a predent was to walk up to you and ask you the same question I did, would you give that response? Hmm... If your not gonna help, kick rocks.
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My apologies. There have been too many of the same questions regarding the viability of dentistry. It can be annoying to see trite questions that can easily be answered with a simple forum search. Please use the search function.
 
ushaseos said:
Like most folks have said here, don't worry about debt so long as you minimize it while in school and pay it off right away. To put it into perspective, I needed to take around 80K of loans for undergrad and in the 1.5-2 years I've been working I've paid them off and my job isn't exactly...financially windthralling. If I can do that in this economic climate I am sure I'll manage when I have a good job. With all your wise planning you'll be 100% fine.
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How have you paid off 80k of loans in 1.5-2 years with a job that isn't "financially windthralling?" Did you mean financially enthralling?

Anyway, to pay off 80k of debt in 1.5-2 years, one requires a sizeable income, IMO...am I wrong? Please tell me if I am. That's 40-54k/year going to pay off student loan debt...add in living expenses to that, and one does require a sizeable income to make that happen.
 
I spoke with a recent grad (family friend) who is making 200k a few years out. He said that the only people who post on dentaltown are people who are not happy with the way their career is going, and feel the need to spread their misery. He says that he and his successful colleagues are having too much fun and working too hard to post their stories. If you were happy at work and satisfied with your life, would you waste time posting stuff on a website?

There are successful people and unsuccessful people in all kinds of careers, not just dentistry. There will be kids who graduate and will somehow be making more money than someone who has been in practice for 20 years. does that mean the profession is dead? Ever wonder if maybe the people complaining on dentaltown are just dentists that can't hack it? If you think you can be successful, dentistry is a great career. But, if you just want to sit back and collect checks, you might be disappointed. These people would be unsuccessful as dentists or bankers or anything else.

Work hard and you will be fine.
 
mmmsteakdinners said:
I spoke with a recent grad (family friend) who is making 200k a few years out. He said that the only people who post on dentaltown are people who are not happy with the way their career is going, and feel the need to spread their misery. He says that he and his successful colleagues are having too much fun and working too hard to post their stories. If you were happy at work and satisfied with your life, would you waste time posting stuff on a website?
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Nice theory, but if you spent much time on dental town you would realize this is not true. Some of the most successful and innovative dentists out there share best practices, swap stories, and network on dental town. If you use dental town to learn from others, you may save yourself a lot of headaches in the future. There is an amazing wealth of information if you know how to sift through the BS.

I assume it is similar to SDN where the frequent posters tend to be the strongest and weakest applicants and not so much in between.
 
LaFleur said:
How have you paid off 80k of loans in 1.5-2 years with a job that isn't "financially windthralling?" Did you mean financially enthralling?

Anyway, to pay off 80k of debt in 1.5-2 years, one requires a sizeable income, IMO...am I wrong? Please tell me if I am. That's 40-54k/year going to pay off student loan debt...add in living expenses to that, and one does require a sizeable income to make that happen.
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I was thinking the exact same thing...even if he lives with his parents and has literally 0 expenses that is an income of 65k+ when you take taxes/social security/medicaid etc into consideration. Assuming cell phone, rent, food, car insurance, health insurance etc an income would be have to be 85k+ to pay off that kind of debt that quickly.
 
sacapuntas said:
Nice theory, but if you spent much time on dental town you would realize this is not true. Some of the most successful and innovative dentists out there share best practices, swap stories, and network on dental town. If you use dental town to learn from others, you may save yourself a lot of headaches in the future. There is an amazing wealth of information if you know how to sift through the BS.

I assume it is similar to SDN where the frequent posters tend to be the strongest and weakest applicants and not so much in between.
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Agreed. I was just referencing the "dentistry...I made a mistake" threads and how you can't just take this as the norm, as these are threads created by the bottom tier of the profession
 
For what it's worth, I've been seeking advice from financial advisors. One of them is a retired dentist and now helps out current new dentists for their planning, and older dentists who want to retire. He told me "it makes zero sense" to put yourself in the financial hole that a private school can cause. (300-400k debt load).

He said he knows some people that attended these schools who are now "struggling financially". The sad thing is that not everyone can attend a public university, myself included. I think the main issue with the huge debt load is seen mostly at the end of your career. Students don't often consider retirement, and that in order to retire you need to save for your entire life. Spending a huge portion of money early in your career on crazy high loans hampers this effort big time, and many dentists won't be able to retire at a reasonable age.

Whatever decision you make, choose wisely.
 
Jbrowndds said:
I was in the dentaltown forums and OMG!!!! Dentists had debt from 339,000 to 4 million dollars. I'm scared that I would have worked my butt off just to have to live like a fry cook. I am only applying to my home state schools (Texas). My husband will be working and paying half of my tuition and books. Here if you don't count living expenses school cost $25-$30k per year. I guess that forum just freak me out. I love dentistry but dang. 4 million dollars in debt. It that even heard of?
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lol, do you have any idea how lucky you are that you were born in Texas? 30k? My school is 90K including living expenses.

oh lawd
 
aznboi89x said:
good to be a TEXAN! 👍
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Very jealous (srs). My father along with his entire side of the family lives down there (last 20 years). I am not a resident 🙁

I applied this cycle, and it breaks my heart that San Antonio and Baylor won't even look at me.
 
ushaseos said:
To put it into perspective, I needed to take around 80K of loans for undergrad and in the 1.5-2 years I've been working I've paid them off and my job isn't exactly...financially windthralling. If I can do that in this economic climate I am sure I'll manage when I have a good job. With all your wise planning you'll be 100% fine.
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Anyone who can pay off 80K in 1.5-2 years would certainly make Suzie Orman and Dave Ramsey proud.
 
Surive123 said:
Very jealous (srs). My father along with his entire side of the family lives down there (last 20 years). I am not a resident 🙁

I applied this cycle, and it breaks my heart that San Antonio and Baylor won't even look at me.
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none of the texas schools want me either.... I'm prepared to go OOS as of now
 
MaxillofacialMN said:
Yup. Podiatry is a joke. That's why they can prescribe medication, and do surgery. Jokesters ALWAYS get in the OR!
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Wow, someone is insecure about his/her career choice. I stand by what I said. Podiatrists sell orthotics with dubious health effects/benefits. Similarly opomotrists just sell glasses and contacts all day. Don't act so self important "doc"
 
Svande8952 said:
Wow, someone is insecure about his/her career choice. I stand by what I said. Podiatrists sell orthotics with dubious health effects/benefits. Similarly opomotrists just sell glasses and contacts all day. Don't act so self important "doc"
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They also enter three year long residencies (like dental specialists 😱 ) and perform surgeries on feet...

If you were secure with your own career choices and life trajectory, you wouldn't feel the need to make ignorant and demeaning comments about other professions.
 
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Zbtb7 said:
They also enter three year long residencies (like dental specialists 😱 ) and perform surgeries on feet...

If you were secure with your own career choices and life trajectory, you wouldn't feel the need to make ignorant and demeaning comments about other professions.
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👍
 
Couldn't have said it better myself.

mmmsteakdinners said:
I spoke with a recent grad (family friend) who is making 200k a few years out. He said that the only people who post on dentaltown are people who are not happy with the way their career is going, and feel the need to spread their misery. He says that he and his successful colleagues are having too much fun and working too hard to post their stories. If you were happy at work and satisfied with your life, would you waste time posting stuff on a website?

There are successful people and unsuccessful people in all kinds of careers, not just dentistry. There will be kids who graduate and will somehow be making more money than someone who has been in practice for 20 years. does that mean the profession is dead? Ever wonder if maybe the people complaining on dentaltown are just dentists that can't hack it? If you think you can be successful, dentistry is a great career. But, if you just want to sit back and collect checks, you might be disappointed. These people would be unsuccessful as dentists or bankers or anything else.

Work hard and you will be fine.
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And wow. Spewing so much ignorance below.

Svande8952 said:
Wow, someone is insecure about his/her career choice. I stand by what I said. Podiatrists sell orthotics with dubious health effects/benefits. Similarly opomotrists just sell glasses and contacts all day. Don't act so self important "doc"
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