Is Med School even viable for me? ...What should I do?

[StellarRay]

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Hi everyone,

I've been avoiding posting this thread all week because I was afraid of the answer that I would get. Recently I've spent quite alot of time at premed101.com trying to figure out if becoming a doctor was still possible for me. Long story short, I screwed up in university. Really bad. So bad that I don't think anyone else has screwed up as badly as I have (unless you got caught for academic misconduct/plagerism). I've been suspended for 3 years from my school (University of Toronto).

When I first went into university I was unable to cope with the transition. My grades slipped. I panicked and instead of seeking help, I feared I was falling behind and at the same time I was ashamed. Like a fish out of water, I began to flail and things just got worse. I got depressed because after my first screw up I thought my academic career was already over. I became really stressed because I could not tell my parents. I lived a life of hiding. And after 5 years, I'm currently suspended for 3 years and I have a cumulative GPA of 1.37.

But now that I have hit rock-bottom, absolute rock-bottom... I really would like a chance at medicine. I finally realise that this is what I want and not just in school to appease my parents. I've finally found the passion and interest to commit myself to something I want.

But I fear that I've screwed up so much that my past will haunt me regardless if I were to even hypotheotically get straight 4.0's in a new undergrad degree.

I live in Ontario, Canada. There are, I believe, 3 med schools here in Canada (Queen's, University of Western Ontario, and Dalhousie) that have an interesting deal in which if you don't meet the regular GPA cut-off then they will consider you based on your "best 2 years" or "last 2 years" of full-time study. Currently, this appears to be my only chance at med school here in Canada. I was wondering if any med schools in the States have a similar option?

My full story can be found here, along with all the troll accusations and how my life must be a joke... all 35 pages, 340 reponses, 15,643 views of it:
http://www.premed101.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28159

As it stands, I believe my only options for med school are:
- Applying to Queen's, UWO, Dalhousie through their secondary last/best 2 year deal
- Applying to a Carribean school (which is financially very scary and possibly impossible)

Anyways, my question is... is it too late for me? I know that some places are considerate of "trends". I'm wondering if I do very well in a new degree, ace the MCAT, and change my life around.. will I ever have a realistic chance at med school in the States? =\

Thank you in advance.. I know it was alot to read. But there you go, my life completely exposed. Again.

 

[Gut Shot]

So 340 responses wasn't enough for you?

#341: You seem very fragile, which is not a quality people look for in a physician. If I had a 1.37 I wouldn't be so worried about convincing other people that I belong in medicine... I'd be worried about convincing myself.

Look, this is actually pretty simple. Go back to school and try again. If your grades suddenly blossom then you might have a chance. If not, well, you know.

 

[p30doc]

I glanced at your post on that other site, do you have 11.5 credits or 115 credits? I am guessing it is 115 if you are feeling so hopeless. If you repeat courses DO schools will take only your lastest grade into when calculating your GPA, so if you retake everything that you had less than a B in and did well your GPA would be a non-issue. If you have 115 credits that is basically four more years of course work you would need to do and ace before applying. Which is possible but given your history might not be plausible. Overcoming the suspension from school would be another big hurdle, I have no experience with this, but would imagine this would be nonstarter at many schools.

I am an anything is possible kind of guy. As I turned around my own bad acedemic record. In your case it might just be too tall of an order. What has changed that you would now be able to handle coursework in a university environment. Are you truly prepared for the immense struggle ahead of you? Why must you be a doctor? How have you tested your interest? Perhaps you would be just as happy if not more so in another position in the healthcare field or in a different field altogether. Either way best of luck.

 

[Keona]

Can you declare academic bankruptcy? Some schools down here have the option, and I think you get to essentially drop an entire semester or years grades, no credit from them either though. I'm not sure how med. schools would look at it, but I know my older brother declared this. I think it's on a case by case basis though.

 

[StellarRay]

So 340 responses wasn't enough for you?

Premed101.com is primarily Canadian students. I was actually referred here by them when addressing this particular question about American med school options...

#341: You seem very fragile, which is not a quality people look for in a physician. If I had a 1.37 I wouldn't be so worried about convincing other people that I belong in medicine... I'd be worried about convincing myself.

Look, this is actually pretty simple. Go back to school and try again. If your grades suddenly blossom then you might have a chance. If not, well, you know.

Come on.. I'm serious. Your casual post of "just go try again, if not oh well" really doesn't help any. If I go back to school and I do "blossom", will it matter to most American med schools? Because I'm getting the impression it wouldn't because from what I've read they look at the ENTIRE GPA. So does this really mean med school in the States is impossible?

I glanced at your post on that other site, do you have 11.5 credits or 115 credits? I am guessing it is 115 if you are feeling so hopeless. If you repeat courses DO schools will take only your lastest grade into when calculating your GPA, so if you retake everything that you had less than a B in and did well your GPA would be a non-issue. If you have 115 credits that is basically four more years of course work you would need to do and ace before applying. Which is possible but given your history might not be plausible. Overcoming the academic dishonesty charge and suspension from school would be another big hurdle, I have no experience with this, but would imagine this would be nonstarter at many schools.

I am an anything is possible kind of guy. As I turned around my own bad acedemic record. In your case it might just be too tall of an order. What has changed that you would now be able to handle coursework in a university environment. Are you truly prepared for the immense struggle ahead of you? Why must you be a doctor? How have you tested your interest? Perhaps you would be just as happy if not more so in another position in the healthcare field or in a different field altogether. Either way best of luck.

To clarify, how the University of Toronto works is that a full course load for a semester (5 courses/semester) is considered 2.5 credits. Therefore a full course load for a year (10 courses) is considered 5.0 credits. Honours is 20.0 credits.

Also, I never committed any academic dishonesty or anything. I just lacked passion and interest at first. I lost so much passion and interest when I goofed up because I thought the battle was already over. But I never cheated or plagerised or anything if that's what you perceived you read. I've never even deferred an exam and only in my last few years dropped a course because I was afraid of the shame, the lost of money, and more importantly the lost of time involved with dropping courses. I never realised that $500 isn't worth a blemish on my GPA until it was much too late.

Just please let me know if there are med school options for me in the States. Lets not get into why I want to be a doctor.. I've been through all those hoops over at premed101 for the past 3 weeks now. I can tell you that my intentions are honorable and that I will work my ass off and do amazing from now on but you don't have to believe either. But what I do need to know is if there are any options for me?

I know there was a huge debate about this (DO vs MD) but are they essentially the same? Would I be able to go into the same specializations as a MD colleague as a DO med student? Do you earn less as a DO for the same job as a MD? Hiring disparity?? If there really was no difference then why are the admissions lower for DO than they are for MD?

Can you declare academic bankruptcy? Some schools down here have the option, and I think you get to essentially drop an entire semester or years grades, no credit from them either though. I'm not sure how med. schools would look at it, but I know my older brother declared this. I think it's on a case by case basis though.

I asked the academic advisors at the University of Toronto (where I attend) and they said they'd never heard of such a thing before.

I was wondering if perhaps any med schools would consider dropping my past mistake if I showed them a new and improved degree with a new and improved GPA. It's like, I wish to be reborn and given that second chance.

 

[bioteach]

What is your science GPA like? If you are say a business major and haven't taken the science coursework vs. taken all the pre-reqs and bombed them...there's a big difference there. Have you taken the pre-reqs yet?

I don't know about MD programs, but DO's may be forgiving if you complete an entire bachelors with a 4.0 and get your cumm GPA up to 2.8-2.9 and have a BCPM of 3.5-4.0 and a good MCAT. Maybe Carrib schools would do the same thing, I don't know much about them so I can't be sure. DO's let your replace your bad grades with good ones, too, so that helps. However, you are from Canada, so I don't know what the DO practice limitations (if any) are in Canada. You could practice in the US as a DO, if you wanted to go that pathway.

I've heard Texas has a clean-slate sort of program, but I think you have to be a Texas resident and the grades have to be something like 10 years old. So I suppose that is not really an option for you. I don't know of any other states or schools that allow such a thing.

 

[Gut Shot]

Your casual post of "just go try again, if not oh well" really doesn't help any.

Don't confuse me being concise with me being casual. The inescapable fact is that you will need far greater than a 1.37 GPA in order to be accepted to medical school. Hence, your first and only goal is to improve your GPA. This will require enrolling in school and busting your gonads. The proof of the pudding will be in the eating.

 

[pianola]

PRE-POST EDIT: After reading the poster below me, I would say that if there are other issues that you need help with, you most definitely need to do so before attempting school again. Definitely.

I'll go out on a limb here and put out my non-expert opinion.

It's never exactly "too late." It's just that the more problems/issues/failing grades you have, the more time you have to put into fixing them/showing you're a completely different person.

So if you have two years of failing grades, you may need to have 6 years of 3.X+ grades (I'm not sure what the X is exactly -- but it has to be good). Maybe you only need 5. Maybe you need 7. Maybe more. I have no idea for certain and no one can really know for sure.

What Gut Shot's trying to tell you is that you've got a lot of time on your hands if you're thinking you want to give medicine a go. No one will ever tell you "You will NEVER make it." Because no one can predict the future. It's really up to *you* to decide whether or not you can maintain a 3.X GPA for a very, very long period of time.

If you have another year with a 1.X GPA, you'll have to do even more time with virtually perfect grades.

Yes, in US MD programs ALL of your grades count -- from everywhere.

So, basically, nothing's ever impossible, but the deeper you dig yourself into a hole, the longer it's going to take you to get out of that hole.

That's just my take on things. I would recommend trying out the coursework and seeing if you can hold down a 3.X. If you can, THEN take the next step and start asking about what else might be necessary. Don't take too many steps at once. Just concentrate on the GPA for now because if it doesn't pan out then, as Gut Shot said, I think you know the answer...

OK, I just used too many words.

Good luck, OP. Please remember that it's really in your hands.

 

[ChairmanMao]

I think you have some serious problems in your life that you need to take care of before even considering whether or not you can apply to medical school. From your premed101 post, it sounds like you're suffering from depression, especially after your break-up. You really should have pulled out of school or transferred when you were placed on academic probation. It would have been difficult to tell your parents back then, but now, it seems like they would almost certainly kick you out if you told them the truth. I'd suggest that you try and find a job first so that you can support yourself, and then tell your parents about this (you should accept any job that you can get, even if it's working at a supermarket or a restaurant, you've already hit rock bottom and there's no job that is too menial). I just think that it's absurd that you're considering applying to medical school when you've lied to your parents for 5 years and can't even take care of your most basic problems.

 

[StellarRay]

What is your science GPA like? If you are say a business major and haven't taken the science coursework vs. taken all the pre-reqs and bombed them...there's a big difference there. Have you taken the pre-reqs yet?

I don't know about MD programs, but DO's may be forgiving if you complete an entire bachelors with a 4.0 and get your cumm GPA up to 2.8-2.9 and have a BCPM of 3.5-4.0 and a good MCAT. Maybe Carrib schools would do the same thing, I don't know much about them so I can't be sure. DO's let your replace your bad grades with good ones, too, so that helps. However, you are from Canada, so I don't know what the DO practice limitations (if any) are in Canada. You could practice in the US as a DO, if you wanted to go that pathway.

I've heard Texas has a clean-slate sort of program, but I think you have to be a Texas resident and the grades have to be something like 10 years old. So I suppose that is not really an option for you. I don't know of any other states or schools that allow such a thing.

Sadly, I was in life sciences so even my science marks suffered. It wasn't like the coursework was hard but back then I had lacked the passion and interest. I went to school and into that programme because that's what my dad wanted. But now that I've lost what feels like everything, now that I'm on the verge of running away from home, I've discovered that medicine is what I really want to do.

And I have no qualm with working the States. Financially, it sounds better anyways.

So if I practice in the States, do DOs have the exact same specialization options as MDs? Same everything? Same pay? Same demand? Btw, money isn't my primary reason for wanting to go into medicine but I do hope to be financial stable and to have a job...

Speaking of which, I have been looking up med school in the Carribean quite alot. The admission seems easier but the scary part is that I'd have to slaughter all the inhabitants on the island and do much better than most med school students in order to get a placement. There's such a high attrition rate in the Carribean schools it's scary. The scariest thought is that I could end up $300,000 in debt with no job and the pre-med and MD from a Carribean school is more or less not recognized anywhere on this planet.

Don't confuse me being concise with me being casual. The inescapable fact is that you will need far greater than a 1.37 GPA in order to be accepted to medical school. Hence, your first and only goal is to improve your GPA. This will require enrolling in school and busting your gonads. The proof of the pudding will be in the eating.

I know I need greater than 1.37.. but just telling me that doesn't answer anything. Even if I got a 4.0 for the next 4 years the average of 4.0 to anything besides a 4.0 or greater won't yield a 4.0. Unless there's some kind of special weighting formula that I don't know about, then I need to know if recovering from a 1.37 is possible. I'm willing to bust my gonads and the gonads of my competitors too.. just please someone tell me if I have any options for med school in the States?

ChairmanMao:
I plan to deal with my problems. It's all part of the plan. (Wow, that sounded like Joker..)

But I need to figure out what my plan for the next 10 yrs is before I just run away or tell my parents. The calm before the storm is all I've got to work with now. Figuring out what options are available to me while I have internet access and a roof over my head is sure alot easier than if I'm living on the street using the public library computers during the daytime and bumming for change during the afternoon.

Keep in mind, the first post was over 2 weeks ago. I'm trying my best to be pro-active about this now. I'm trying to find out which roads ahead of me are viable and which lead to dead-ends. Please, just let me know if there's any "American Dream" left for me down there and lets leave whether or not I'm capable enough to handle the demand of university now because it won't matter what I say. Just let me know if there's any road ahead for me in the States so I can begin to take steps and then start running.

thank you

one sad canadian

 

[MaximusD]

I think you have some serious problems in your life that you need to take care of before even considering whether or not you can apply to medical school. From your premed101 post, it sounds like you're suffering from depression, especially after your break-up. You really should have pulled out of school or transferred when you were placed on academic probation. It would have been difficult to tell your parents back then, but now, it seems like they would almost certainly kick you out if you told them the truth. I'd suggest that you try and find a job first so that you can support yourself, and then tell your parents about this (you should accept any job that you can get, you've already hit rock bottom and you should not even be thinking about medical school if you don't even want to work). I just think that it's absurd that you're considering applying to medical school when you've lied to your parents for 5 years and can't even take care of your own problems.

It's certainly reasonable to think, however, that people can hold a different professional persona vs their personal and familial relations, don't you think? OR are you too busy being judgemental to utilize your cognitive capacity? 😱

To the OP, what the **** do you want us to say? You are a ****up. It's ok. I know plenty of ****ups that go to med school. The difference between the ****ups that don't get into med school and the ****ups that get into med school is that the latter adapted so that they could prove for a couple of years that they weren't complete ****ups. Are you willing to put forth the effort and time required to reverse your dismal GPA? If not, find something else... it's really as simple as that. NO school is gonna look at you (USMD, USDO, Carib, Foreign, X.com, etc) with a sub-2.0 GPA.

Do work, son. Or give up... There are other careers out there.

I'll never forget sophomore year of college I had griped about how I was having trouble in my organic course to a physician who is a friend of the family. I complained how it was tough to take a tough courseload and get much better than a B average. She later remarked to my dad about how being a physician's assistant would be an excellent job for me.

I promptly dropped organic, retook it and continued improving my GPA and studied for four months for the MCAT so that I could get a respectable score... moral? You HAVE TO WANT IT. There are simply too many people who want to be doctors.

 

[bcat85]

Hi everyone,

I've been avoiding posting this thread all week because I was afraid of the answer that I would get. Recently I've spent quite alot of time at premed101.com trying to figure out if becoming a doctor was still possible for me. Long story short, I screwed up in university. Really bad. So bad that I don't think anyone else has screwed up as badly as I have (unless you got caught for academic misconduct/plagerism). I've been suspended for 3 years from my school (University of Toronto).

When I first went into university I was unable to cope with the transition. My grades slipped. I panicked and instead of seeking help, I feared I was falling behind and at the same time I was ashamed. Like a fish out of water, I began to flail and things just got worse. I got depressed because after my first screw up I thought my academic career was already over. I became really stressed because I could not tell my parents. I lived a life of hiding. And after 5 years, I'm currently suspended for 3 years and I have a cumulative GPA of 1.37.

But now that I have hit rock-bottom, absolute rock-bottom... I really would like a chance at medicine. I finally realise that this is what I want and not just in school to appease my parents. I've finally found the passion and interest to commit myself to something I want.

But I fear that I've screwed up so much that my past will haunt me regardless if I were to even hypotheotically get straight 4.0's in a new undergrad degree.

I live in Ontario, Canada. There are, I believe, 3 med schools here in Canada (Queen's, University of Western Ontario, and Dalhousie) that have an interesting deal in which if you don't meet the regular GPA cut-off then they will consider you based on your "best 2 years" or "last 2 years" of full-time study. Currently, this appears to be my only chance at med school here in Canada. I was wondering if any med schools in the States have a similar option?

My full story can be found here, along with all the troll accusations and how my life must be a joke... all 35 pages, 340 reponses, 15,643 views of it:
http://www.premed101.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28159

As it stands, I believe my only options for med school are:
- Applying to Queen's, UWO, Dalhousie through their secondary last/best 2 year deal
- Applying to a Carribean school (which is financially very scary and possibly impossible)

Anyways, my question is... is it too late for me? I know that some places are considerate of "trends". I'm wondering if I do very well in a new degree, ace the MCAT, and change my life around.. will I ever have a realistic chance at med school in the States? =\

Thank you in advance.. I know it was alot to read. But there you go, my life completely exposed. Again.

look.. you are a pretty fragile guy. You have to understand that there is a ridiculous amount of competition to get into U.S. allopathic medical schools. Just browse sdn and mdapplicants.com and you will see that almost immediately. You have a 1.37 gpa with 11.5 hours to go to graduate (I'm going to assume it takes 120 hours to graduate). to raise your gpa to a semicompetitive 3.5, it would take roughly 400 credit hours of perfect 4.0 work.

This wasn't some freshman screwup.. it was a long term lack of self discipline and effort. After 110 semester hours of 1.4 quality work, it is hardly believable that you could turn it around and rattle off 400 straight hours of 4.0 work (which would, by the way, take you about 10 years). Realistically... it ain't gonna happen. I would give it up and move on to something else.

 

[MaximusD]

Sadly, I was in life sciences so even my science marks suffered. It wasn't like the coursework was hard but back then I had lacked the passion and interest. I went to school and into that programme because that's what my dad wanted. But now that I've lost what feels like everything, now that I'm on the verge of running away from home, I've discovered that medicine is what I really want to do.

And I have no qualm with working the States. Financially, it sounds better anyways.

So if I practice in the States, do DOs have the exact same specialization options as MDs? Same everything? Same pay? Same demand? Btw, money isn't my primary reason for wanting to go into medicine but I do hope to be financial stable and to have a job...

Speaking of which, I have been looking up med school in the Carribean quite alot. The admission seems easier but the scary part is that I'd have to slaughter all the inhabitants on the island and do much better than most med school students in order to get a placement. There's such a high attrition rate in the Carribean schools it's scary. The scariest thought is that I could end up $300,000 in debt with no job and the pre-med and MD from a Carribean school is more or less not recognized anywhere on this planet.


I know I need greater than 1.37.. but just telling me that doesn't answer anything. Even if I got a 4.0 for the next 4 years the average of 4.0 to anything besides a 4.0 or greater won't yield a 4.0. Unless there's some kind of special weighting formula that I don't know about, then I need to know if recovering from a 1.37 is possible. I'm willing to bust my gonads and the gonads of my competitors too.. just please someone tell me if I have any options for med school in the States?

one sad canadian

Here's the thing, DOs largely have every opportunity that MDs do, particularly in areas that have traditionally had DOs working alongside MDs (northeast, midwest). DOs have their own residency programs and can also apply to MD programs, although certain extremely competitive MD residencies may have a bias (less each year!). Same pay for the same job.

Let me put it to you this way... I had a 3.25 and a 32 MCAT and go ZERO interview invites to MD schools. It is VERY hard to get into MD schools and it's getting increasingly difficult to get into DO programs. Carib requires a pulse. Don't go carib if you can help it. You are spot-on about attrition rates... they are appalling.

So my suggestion: For the time being, don't focus on the eventualities. You need to retake your premed prerequisites and get no lower than B+'s in each of them. In the meanwhile, you need to do volunteering and try to find non-medical community service that you can participate in. Do research if it interests you. You need to ILLUSTRATE your sudden desire and devotion to medicine both academically and extracurricularly. Finally, you will need a 30+ (even for DO schools with a low GPA) to gain admission to a US med school.

Good luck. Don't psychoanalyze yourself too much. Try to find momentum because the inertia will help once you've established better habits.

 

[MaximusD]

look.. you are a pretty fragile guy. You have to understand that there is a ridiculous amount of competition to get into U.S. allopathic medical schools. Just browse sdn and mdapplicants.com and you will see that almost immediately. You have a 1.37 gpa with 11.5 hours to go to graduate (I'm going to assume it takes 120 hours to graduate). to raise your gpa to a semicompetitive 3.5, it would take roughly 400 credit hours of perfect 4.0 work.

This wasn't some freshman screwup.. it was a long term lack of self discipline and effort. After 110 semester hours of 1.4 quality work, it is hardly believable that you could turn it around and rattle off 400 straight hours of 4.0 work (which would, by the way, take you about 10 years). Realistically... it ain't gonna happen. I would give it up and move on to something else.

Not true. He could re-enroll and do retakes. AACOMAS (DO application) will forgive your old grades and only calculate your GPA with the new grades. If you spend quite a while doing retakes, you can dramatically increase your science GPA.

 

[sookie]

The way you tell your story is so sad. It sounds like you just need a good hug.

If I were you, I would try to take sciences classes at another school during those three years you are suspended from your current university (if that is possible- not sure how canadian schools work). I definately don't think it would be a waste of time. Not only would it prove to yourself that you aren't a failure, which I can already tell you AREN'T (since you put all this time into figuring out how to fix the problem you are in), but it would also give you a chase to boost that dang GPA. I know plenty of people who I would label as failures and they would never do what you are trying to do.

A post-bac should be good option for you, since those are ofter out-weighed over undergrad. Don't give up! Medicine isn't about doing everything right the first time. It's about learning from others and from your own mistakes. I think you have realized your own ability to do that. Good luck!

 

[Perrotfish]

Things you need to know:

Yes, US Allo schools will basically look at your entire GPA. Also that suspension will never go away. And the average these days is a 3.7. Allo schools do weight more recent grades more heavily, but considering where you're starting from I just don't see this happening in your lifetime. Theoretically if you could get your grades to about a 3.0, then get a truely stellar MCAT, you could do an SMP. Again, mathamatically, you're looking at years and years of work here even if you never get less than an A ever again.

You might have a shorter path to Carribean or DO schools. The problem is that I believe (not 100% sure here) a DO degree is not acredited in Canada (and I have no idea what the procedure is for FMGs up there). You'd probably need to practice in the US, and I have no idea what that would entail for you. Also your still several years (at LEAST 3) from getting to the point where you can get into a DO or Carribean school, even if you get a 4.0 from now on, which (no offense) you probably won't. If you don't get a 4.0, even if you get what would otherwise be quite a respectable GPA from here on out, you're probably not getting in.

So, yeah, I don't see how this is doable in less than 5 years, which to me means it's not doable. Eventually you need an income.

So, my recomendation: RN --> NP --> DNP. Nurse your way up through the health care system. Your extensive future work experience will compensate for your dismal grades and by the end of your career you'll be doing something very close to what a GP does.

Here's the thing, DOs largely have every opportunity that MDs do, particularly in areas that have traditionally had DOs working alongside MDs (northeast, midwest). DOs have their own residency programs and can also apply to MD programs, although certain extremely competitive MD residencies may have a bias (less each year!). Same pay for the same job.

Not in Canada. Up there they have the same rights and privladges that neuropaths have in the US.

 

[cwfergus]

.

 

[Sunfire]

StellarRay, most of all, don't start until you are sure and ready that you will not let yourself fail, no matter what you decide. You're going to have to toughen up, guy, no two ways around it.

No matter what you decide to do, I would get your volunteer ass into your local ER, pronto. Don't miss a single shift. No matter which route you end up taking, you'll have some substantial hours and experience to present, as well as a good shot at some letters of reference.

Maximus, fyi, there is no apostrophe, it's 'Physician Assistant'. And make no mistake, GPAs, including O-Chem grades, are just as competitive for most PA programs now.

 

[StellarRay]

MaximusD:
That's great news! So I can basically just re-do all my courses and it'll be as though they never existed??? Holy ####!!! I'd much rather do 4 years all over again rather than do 10+ years of straight 4.0's. I mean, I can't even imagine what courses I would have to take to burn up all those years...

Like I said, I have no problem working in the States. Canada has its charm but frankly I don't mind moving right now. You guys get paid more anyways. =p

I just don't get the difference between DO and MD though. If both are essentially the same in every way then why does one have the lower admission cut-off? I tried doing some research into that and it all appears to be equal... If say I had a DO and my friend had a MD, would we both be able to go into any speciality we wanted? Would it be harder for a DO holder?

sookie:
Thanks for the kind words and encouragement. At a time like this in my life it really does mean alot. And a hug right about now would be great but, since it's already public knowledge, the first love of my life has already left the building.

In Canada, supposedly according to the academic advisors at the University of Toronto, a suspension means that I can't attend any other university here until it's over. However, I have been told that doing distance education (ie online courses) is possible at some accreditted universities (ie Athabasca University).

My most likely plan so far has been that I'd run away from home soon, do a 6 week EMR course in Alberta and thus be able to work as an Emergency First Responder, and hopefully be able to do some courses online to gain some credits to transfer towards a new undergrad degree for when my suspension wears off possibly saving myself up to 2 years. But even if this plan is do-able I just don't know how med schools in Canada and the States would look upon taking courses online like this...

So what is a PostBac exactly? I'm sorry but I never really heard that expression until today. I'm presuming it means Post-Bachelor and thereby meaning after I get my undergrad degree? Do you mean doing a Masters or Grad work? Because I think I read that Masters and Grad GPA doesn't affect med school applications. I did a quick google and from like one of the first results I got was Tuft PostBac pre-med (http://studentservices.tufts.edu/postbac/postbacinfo.htm#apply)?

From what I'm reading, it means that I'd need to graduate with an undergrad degree first then apply to do their 1 year Pre-med program essentially and if I obtain >3.4 GPA in that year then I'm eligible to be accepted into their med school. But a problem is that I've already taken some science courses and their site says that their pre-med isn't to be used to enhance past marks. It also seems kind of risky to have to spend a year and tuition and cost of living to leave it up to them to accept me or not. Most of the Carribean schools also have pre-med programs ranging from 1 year (Medical University of Americas) to 3 years (St George).

Do you know of any good or reputable postbac programs that I could do?

Perrotfish:
So is a MD in the States accreditted in Canada but a DO not? I know you have to pass like 5 boarding exams or something to come into Canada and possibly do a year or two of residency again.

What exactly did you mean by my future work experience would compensate for my dismal grades?

cwfergus:
As far as I know, there are only 3 Canadian med schools that have kickbacks. Queen's and Dalhousie look at your last 2 years of undergrad and I believe that Western looks at your best 2 years. The reason I'm here inquiring about med schools in the States is because I'd like to know all my options really.

And financially speaking, I'm going to be in quite a bit of debt (anothers 4 years of undergrad, moving out on my own, OSAP, loans, ...med school?) so it helps to know that our American counterparts usually get paid more than we do for the same job.

Also, broadly speaking American med schools supposedly have bit better admissions than Canadian med schools from what I've read. Obviously you have your top-tiers down there in the States just like you have your top-tiers up here. So I guess I was hoping that there might be a little of that "American Dream" that you people speak ad nauseum about for little ol' me. =\

Sunfire:
Yes yes and yes. I have been trying my best to be pro-active about my situation now. Not to be immodest but given that my girlfriend and best friend of 4 years just abandoned me, that the walls of my lies are coming down on me fast, that yes I was suicidal for awhile, that I realised my own passion on the very brink... that yes, in these 2 weeks I've been pro-active. I've called admissions at various med schools in Canada and the Carribean. However I'm posting here on this forum simply because there are so many med schools in the States that I don't even know where to start. And this PostBac thing confuses me. If I've already taken most of the science pre-reqs then am I even able to do PostBac?? PostBac seems like the equivalent of a pre-med program.

The Carribean would be nice. I would just LOVE to go there. And their pre-med program is suppose to admit anyone even straight out of high school and require nothing but high school transcript and SAT scores. And that's what I was hoping to get into. St George University in the Carribean for example has a 3 year pre-med program that does just that. But I have to call back soon to see how they look upon someone like me that even though I have pretty good marks (90's in the sciences for High School), I still have my university transcript which is scarring me quite possibly for life. However the cost is huge, racking up nearly $300,000 after 3 years of pre-med and 4 years of MD. My parents are poor. My dad is unemployed. Getting a line of credit from the bank could prove to be impossible. Co-signer no job? My transcript bad? Denied??

Trust me, I've really considered the Carribean schools as my first option. I'd be able to ignore my suspension altogether and just start the pre-med there just as though it was a new undergrad degree. I'd finally get that chance I wanted so badly. And the monthly interest that accrues I could pay that off with the line of credit itself. But yeah, big risk for big rewards, right? However, the risk isn't just mine to make.. the bank, the school itself, and my parents as co-signers (if I could ever even convince them to do it) would also be taking a risk on me. Someone from the premed101 forum actually said that he'd rather gamble the $300,000 in a game of roulette instead.. -_-

I'm not really putting the cart before the horse, I think anyways. I just need to know what paths are open to me and which ones actually lead to where I want to go. I need to know before I can take the first step and start running because this will be for at least the next 4 years (undergrad) to 10 years if I actually get in anywhere.

So do you have any Post-Bacc programs/schools that you'd recommend for academic trash like me? ^^

 

[Bacchus]

Were you suspended for academics or another more legal reason? This could be a big hurdle to overcome.

DOs have practice rights in Canada but their are areas where it is non-existant or limited to only manipulation.

Being a non-US citizen, financial aid is more convoluted as well. This is something you may want to think of. I believe you can't get US loans and definitely not financial aid from the government here. You will basically have to fund your own education with a lot of help. (someone please correct me if I'm wrong)

 

[Sunfire]

Post-bacc thread:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/forumdisplay.php?f=71

 

[StellarRay]

Were you suspended for academics or another more legal reason? This could be a big hurdle to overcome.

DOs have practice rights in Canada but their are areas where it is non-existant or limited to only manipulation.

Being a non-US citizen, financial aid is more convoluted as well. This is something you may want to think of. I believe you can't get US loans and definitely not financial aid from the government here. You will basically have to fund your own education with a lot of help. (someone please correct me if I'm wrong)

Suspended for academic reasons only. Never cheated or anything in my life. But gosh, was I tempted to by the end when I felt the end coming. Ever see that youtube video of the guy printing off all the cheats on the Coca Cola bottle label? Heh..

But yeah, I was too scared to ever even defer an exam or ask to hand in an assignment late. I never used a doctor's note once. Nor was I very smart in first year because i refused to drop courses because of the stigma of shame, that I'd fall behind everyone else, and that because I just wasted my parents' money. Looking back now, saving my GPA would've made a heck lot more sense...

Financially, from what I was reading there are virtually no financial aid from the States for Canadians. So I would mostly be relying on OSAP (provincial/federal loaning system in Canada) and private loaners like banks and their line of credits (which requires a co-signer). I think in the past, people reported that they got on average around $150,000 for every line of credit. However with the credit crunch... loans are getting to be much harder to take out. And given my dad's unemployment and outstanding loans/margins already... I'm pretty screwed.

Post-bacc thread:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/forumdisplay.php?f=71

Merci beaucoup!

 

[Maxwell Edison]

With respect, if you don't fix the personal issues you're facing (whatever those may be), a do-over won't help. Every neurotic premed faces enough of a challenge without having to fret that this is their one last chance in redemption in life. That is WAY too much pressure.

Find yourself, plant your feet firmly and then start anew. If I were you, I wouldn't be in such a rush to get back. You need to be cool as a cucumber before you start over (and you need to mean it, not just say it).

 

[Perrotfish]

Trust me, I've really considered the Carribean schools as my first option. I'd be able to ignore my suspension altogether and just start the pre-med there just as though it was a new undergrad degree. I'd finally get that chance I wanted so badly. And the monthly interest that accrues I could pay that off with the line of credit itself. But yeah, big risk for big rewards, right? However, the risk isn't just mine to make.. the bank, the school itself, and my parents as co-signers (if I could ever even convince them to do it) would also be taking a risk on me. Someone from the premed101 forum actually said that he'd rather gamble the $300,000 in a game of roulette instead..

I agree with the Premed101 poster. For the Carribbean:

1) There is a good chance you won't get into their medical school (not to be confused with their premed program)

2) There is a good chance that, once in their medical school, you will not graduate (not even considering your grades, Island schools have huge failout rates)

3) There is a good chance that, if you graduate from their medical school, you will not get a residency (another Island school risk)

4) There is a good chance that, if you get a residency, your degree still won't allow you to practice in Canada (Island schools have contracts with the US that makes their degrees valid here, I don't believe the same applies in Canada).

If 1,2,3,or 4 occur, you're in debt for the rest of your life and your parents lose their house. This is a bad idea.

 

[HumidBeing]

You were expecting to graduate next fall. What were your plans for after that?

What were you intending to do after graduation? Somehow get into a Canadian med school with the 1.6 that it would take you to graduate? Have you even taken the MCAT? I didn't see a score posted in here, and I'm not going to read that entire 101 thread.

Getting into med school shouldn't be your concern right now. The road to that will be exceptionally long and expensive, if you do eventually decide that it really is what you want. Right now, you're making that declaration out of a reaction to being kicked out and not wanting to face your parents. You have a pile of things to address in your personal life and actions before you can seriously take on that task.

Take the baby steps necessary to get your current life moving forward. Make them realistic steps. You can't reach the moon before you lift yourself off the ground.

My 2 cents on a very grouchy night.

 

[Sunfire]

Agreed. This is all conjecture until you actually have 2 years to present to anyone. Don't put the cart before the horse. I don't even know of an RN program that would accept a 1.37. Get a better post-bacc GPA and someone, somewhere, will probably give you a second look. Do it...when you're ready. And seriously, get your ass into the ER asap.

 

[StellarRay]

Oyyy... it's really super that you guys are concerned for my mental state and health but the best medicine for me right now is to form some kind of solid plan for my future. Yes, I will eventually have to confront my parents but giving them a workable plan sure beats a sob story. Asian parents, y'know? ^^

Besides, I just need as much info as I can get off everyone so I can make that informed decision before I'm out on the street. It'll be much easier to make that informed decision while there's still this calm before the storm.

On the form that you have to fill out before seeing an academic advisor, it always asks you what were the 3 top reasons for your academic falling out and if they were resolved. My reasons, I wrote were:

1. Initial lack of passion and interest (at the time, the program and everything that entailed was my dad's choice, not mine)

2. I did not seek help when I needed it. Instead I hid from everyone, family, friends, and all. In my immaturity and embarassment and shame, I ended up lying to everyone and pushing everyone away so that they wouldn't discover what a failure I had become. The lies compounded, as did the stress and depression that ensued. It was so very stressful since I commute to school that I would always have to come home to them.

3. I fell in love for the first time. Which on its own probably wouldn't be so bad. But I guess at times it did give me the convenient excuse to ignore my crappy reality.

But hey, everything will be resolved soon enough if it isn't already.

1. I've discovered what it it is that I want and I'm just burning up wanting someone to put some books in front of me. I know that when you're in school sometimes you just want to do anything but study... I miss that.

2. I've already begun to tell some friends and my own little sister. I'm just waiting to finalize some realistic plans before I tell my parents. I have to be prepared to be kicked out, I have to be prepared to have a full-time job ready, to know that I have a future even in the worst case scenario. That I'm running along a road that goes somewhere. Moving out, will hopefully, take me away from the constant looming stress of my parents even though they were the ones to put a roof over my head.

3. Well, my best friend for the last 4-5 years has blocked and deleted me off msn as of this morning.. so I don't think I have to worry about that one! ^_^

Anyways, no more about my mental health or how long the road is. Just tell me the actual measurements on this road please!

Is it really possible to re-do all of my courses and then apply to DO schools in the States?

Is PostBac possible for me if I already have most of the med school pre-req courses? Is SMP more likely in that sense? SMP seems to be much harder from what I've begun to read.

As a Canadian, will I have to write the SAT? I know I'd have to write the SAT for Carribean med schools, not sure about US med schools though.

The hardest thing for me to do right now is to just sit here and reflect. It's easy to say just take some time off. Take a year off and think if this is what you really want. I know this is what I want. I'm not getting any younger either... I know, I know.. some 60 year old champ did it but I'd really like to be able to practice within the next 10 years... -_-'

And yes, it does hurt when the one you love leaves you because they're afraid of the financial insecurity. Too much does our culture romanticize love. Almost always does Disney or movies in general always show true love prevailing over money. I guess it wasn't true love. ^^

So anyways, please throw me some of your wisdom and knowledge. God knows I need it.

Edit:
I've already volunteered for around 3 years in both the ER and the surgical suite. I'm pretty good at folding blankets and filling out forms now... >___>'

 

[Sunfire]

Is PostBac possible for me if I already have most of the med school pre-req courses?

The answer to this question is yes. Sorry, I don't mean to come across as cold, but I didn't read the rest. The rest is your personal business and in my opinion is probably what got you in trouble in the first place. You might want to consider some therapy in a counseling setting, to help you learn to how to better separate your professional life from your personal.

You need to hold off on any action until you're able to focus. Saying that you've 'found the passion' is great, but those are only words. Until you find a post-bacc that will work for you, and do the work which will give you a better GPA to present, you are simply going around and around in circles. Straighten up and fly right. Good luck.

 

[HumidBeing]

SAT, no. You've been a college student. They'll base admission on your transcript and previous college records.

A post-bacc is something you do AFTER you have a first degree. You need to get that first.

 

[Dulcina]

hmm only 2 things to add here (maybe repeat, im too lazy to read through everything)

1. I think its definitely possible. People have rough times in their life, and I think med school admissions understand that. I would start over at a new college, redo all your classes, and rock them this time.

2. Figure out what exactly went wrong last time. Can you guarantee to yourself that this won't happen again? What about if you try your very hardest and fail a test, will you have an intensely emotional reaction to it?

Good luck in whatever you decide to do.

 

[Gut Shot]

I'm willing to bust my gonads and the gonads of my competitors too..

A gunner is born?

 

[URHere]

I'm going to give you my totally honest opinion on this one. If you went back to school and completely retook your entire undergraduate courseload, you might have a chance as an allopathic acceptance. Most people have a chance to compensate, at least slightly, for their GPAs by their MCAT scores, research, clinical experience, etc, but you WILL NOT have that luxury. A one point anything is bad, and it is going to be seriously hard to overcome.

That being said, if you can tell your story in a compelling way and really clean up your performance, there might be a small, non-definitive, possibility of a chance for you in a US allopathic program. The point is, that even if you clean everything up perfectly, you will have no guarantees.

For DO schools, your chances are better simply because they will accept your new grades in lieu of your old ones, but you would really have to put a lot of work into it, and if the rest of your application was not immaculate, you would still have no guarantees.

If you are willing to go back to school even with the possibility of not being accepted into a medical program, then that is exactly where you should start. Move on from this period of self-doubt and really start testing yourself to see if you have what it takes to be a physician.

If you are not willing to go back to school if there's a chance you will not get into medical school, then I suggest finding another career path that interests you.

 

[flip26]

A gunner is born?

What I love most about posters like the OP is that he is going to suddenly start making straight As...some people just aren't cut out for competitive academia...it takes more than willpower and determination to make straight As...and, duh, why did it take getting to within a semester of graduating for the OP to realize he needed to make As?

To the OP: other than looking into those longshot programs you mentioned at the Canadian schools, give up. Your odds of getting into a US allo school are probably in the range of 1 in 100,000, and that assumes you have a miraculous post bacc experience with around 400 hours of As...do the math: how many years of post bacc would that take? at least 8, maybe more...and keep in mind, anything less than an "A" hurts you...

Find another path to serving the sick. Nursing, maybe? Social worker?

 

[p30doc]

Also, I never committed any academic dishonesty or anything.

Sorry I completely misread that part of your first post.

 

[pianola]

I'd really like to be able to practice within the next 10 years...

This ranges from not-likely to impossible.

OP, you will need 6+ years of very, very strong unimpeachable grades. You will need 4 years of medical school. Not to mention residency (3+ years). 10 years is a little early and assumes absolutely no stumbles on your way to perfect grades and no reapplications to medical school.

Heck people with perfect grades right NOW may not be able to practice in 10 years if they choose a specialty with a 7 year long residency.

Just my two cents. Be prepared.

 

[daniellema13]

Stella...do you mind if i ask (and forgive me if the answer has been posted already, i did not read your other forum) why you are suddenly so certain that medicine is what you want? Please don't take offense, but the urgency in your posts gives the impression that you are more interested in a medical career "plan" in order to blunt the coming confrontation with your parents. "I made a real mess of things, but don't worry i have everything all worked out..." my advice, (and i am in no way trying to discourage you from medicine if that is truly what you want for yourself), is to try to formulate in your mind the reasons you not only want to dedicate your life to medicine, but the reasons you believe you will make a good physician, and be happy doing it...and not to back yourself into yet another corner by presenting a plan that you are not 100% certain about. This only puts added pressure on yourself...you may find yourself right back where you started, swimming to succeed because this is now what your parents are expecting (because you told them to)...and this is not the experience that anyone wants. I think the simple fact that you have the courage to be honest with them, say that you lost your way but you have learned from it and are ready to lead a more responsible life is what is important here. Leave your options open so that you have the freedom to pursue whatever makes you happiest...and if along the way you find that this is still medicine, then you will find the way to make the dream work for you, you don't need a bunch of people to tell you what numbers will get you there, and how to get them. In the bigger picture, it is the entire story, not just numbers.

Having said all that, you can absolutely overcome your bad academic record with time and a lot of effort. And obviously your record will never be perfect, but with a solid turnaround, it will be the commitment that shines through. When i first started college i was in the midst of a developping panic disorder (that actually started before college)... like you i didn't seek any kind of help for myself. I NEVER went to classes but because education, good grades, etc had always been such a big thing in my life i didnt want to come forward so again like you i hid everything. I got 3 (or 4) straight semesters of X's (given when there isnt enough work to assign a grade) (and also a 1 or two E's...just depended on the teacher.. but unlike you i wasnt actually doing any work or taking tests, and actually the little bit of stuff i did complete i got good marks on)...why did i not withdraw from those classes??? Who knows, i was immature and ignorant. But i wasted A LOT of tuition money. and maintained to my parents that i was getting good grades (and in my situation they would have been 100% understanding and available to help me, they would not have disowned me cause i was going through a rough time). And finally the university excluded me for one year for academic reasons. And even though right then i knew that education was absolutely important to me, and i still wanted to pursue it, the FIRST thing i did was get some therapy for my panic disorder, FOR MYSELF, not just as a means to get back on some planned path. And just being honest with yourself and addressing the problems you've internalized makes things a hundred times bettter. within a couple months i had zero anxiety left and have never had a problem with it since. And then i re-enrolled in school and let my interests (which had been medicine since i started but i kept my options open) guide me. I concentrated on one semester at a time, not some grand plan. And i was very commited to MYSELF, and my passions. And i earned an excellent academic record etc etc, and no one once has ever looked at me and said that med school is just beyond my reach because of my early failed record. granted X's are not counted in your GPA, so mine is still very high. But regardless, they can see right on my transcript that i had almost 2 years of academic ****up. I'll let you know how my application process goes....

But please make sure that you do things for the right reasons. There is nothing worth avoiding a bigger battle in the present if it means creating a life of pressure that you realize you don't want to live up to. This only sets yourself up for "failure" once again. Instead of living on such a rigid path, do what interests you and let that lead you to success, and likely that success will be a medical career.

Sorry so long and preachy... hope this helps and good luck!!

 

[MaseratiGT]

My most likely plan so far has been that I'd run away from home soon

Adults don't run away from home. Adults move out and find ways to suport themselves.

Someone else made a comment about your gunner-ish thoughts.
The competition should be the very last thing on your mind. Right now, your biggest competitor is yourself. At the point your at now, your probably not on the radar of any doctorate student in America. Low GPA, no upward trend, and no MCAT yet.

If your willing to retake all of your courses, go for it. However, as it has already been stated, there are always other options to helping the ill.

 

[bcat85]

Not true. He could re-enroll and do retakes. AACOMAS (DO application) will forgive your old grades and only calculate your GPA with the new grades. If you spend quite a while doing retakes, you can dramatically increase your science GPA.

i forgot about this... I was suggesting he start over at a different school. There are occasionally stories of students getting into medical school with ~3.0 GPA's, but realistically, it is a huge longshot for you to just all of a sudden turn it around and start getting straight A's for a few hundred credit hours. Even the best students would have a REALLY difficult time doing that, and, judging by your current academic record, it is REALLY unlikely that you will be able to do that. If you are sincerely committed to medical school, you have to recognize that it may be 5-10 years before you even get in, and another 7-10 until you are a practicing physician. It will take you a LONG time to dig yourself out of this hole. If you can do it.. more power to you, but if it were me, I would give it up and try something different.

A gunner is born?

 

[StellarRay]

Lets leave out of the discussion if I'm capable of university or capable of achieving 3.7-4.0's or if I'm even mentally stable. Why I'm really here posting on this forum is to find out what my options are and if there are any then how exactly do I reach them (ie numbers).

So from what I'm getting from the SDN forums is this:

MD:
If I choose to pursue MD then realistically I'd need like 10-15 years of amazing grades to fix my cGPA. Which basically means it's not going to happen ever in my lifetime since I'll eventually have to work, feed myself, live... Take a moment to realise that this option just doesn't exist anymore. It's rather sad.

Pros:
- more recognized
- sounds like you can practice in Canada if you pass some boarding exams

Cons:
- cGPA cut-off will kill me
- pretty much impossible to get admitted unless they consider upward trends

DO:
If I choose to pursue DO then if I'm understanding this right, I could literally re-take every course I have in the past and if I do well enough then they would only look at my newest marks. Literally, a second chance... the drawback is that I'd have to most likely repeat the same degree basically 4 years in 3 years from now (suspension). So I'd be about 8 years behind and I'll be 30 by the time I finish my undergrad when most people are done there's when they're 22. If med school works out then I'd still have another 4-10 years if I get into specialization of any sort. So I'd be around 40 before I could start to work. On the plus side, I could still use my improved grades and apply to Queen's, UWO, Dalhousie, Sask (i think).

Pros:
- literally a second chance by being able to re-do every bad course
- more likely to get admitted
- same specialities as MD
- still able to use grades to apply to the 3-4 Canadian med schools with "kickbacks"

Cons:
- not as recognized as a MD
- can't practice in Canada?
- stuck with re-doing the same degree again (same courses) thereby unable to do say an "easier" degree for GPA purposes
- long road, 3 yrs suspension, 4 yrs undergrad, 4 yrs med school, ?? yrs residency = 11 + (3 to 7) = 14 to 18 years

Carribean Med Schools:
If I choose to go to the Carribean schools the admission cut-off would be presumably the easiest of the three. Especially if they let me into their pre-med program. Yes, most of these schools are after my money but they also give me the fastest opportunity to either succeed or fail. Again, their pre-med works very much like a PostBac or SMP that you guys brought up.

But the attrition rate and just the fierce competition to be the top of the top in order to get placement is scary. I'd have to be the best of the best and better than you American med grads in order to get a placement as an IMG and even that's not guaranteed. But basically, as I see it.. it just means that I'll have to work harder than everyone else to atone for my mistakes. Which is pretty much what I have to do anyways.

Pros:
- easiest to get into
- fastest route (3 yrs pre-med, 4-5 yrs MD)
- it's for MD licensing
- I have to work harder than everyone anyways
- the island... it's so beautiful >_<

Cons:
- expensive as ####!!
- high attrition rate
- not even sure if I can financially afford it (~$300,000) because I'm not sure if I could get a loan or line of credit because of my own transcripts and my parents' employment problems
- have to work harder than everyone
- as Perrotfish said, I could fail at any of the possible levels leaving me in alot of debt with no recognized education
- just doing good in their pre-med doesn't guarantee a med school seat.. I'd only be "eligible" after a 3.4 GPA

PostBac & SMP:
PostBac and SMP sound pretty much like the pre-med programmes offered by the Carrib schools in that if you do well in them then you'd be eligible to be admitted into their own respective med schools. Unlike the Carrib pre-med however, you need to have a degree first.

Pros:
- Basically seems like a 1 year pre-med program much like the Carrib, score around 3.7-4.0 and I've more than likely got a med school seat
- For the most part, they just require a degree (need to look up admission cut-offs etc)

Cons:
- need to have completed 4 years to get my degree first
- no guarantee in getting into a med school (really in their hands)
- can be costly and not necessary recognized anywhere much like the Carrib pre-med

So anyways, do any schools down there in the States really consider upward trends? Hypotheotically if I did vastly improve, would the upward trend mean anything or would my cGPA just get get me cut-off by some super sorting computer?

Does anyone have any schools that they'd recommend that I should call? There's so many.. literally a country-full of med schools and postbacs and SMPs to call. I'm not sure where to start.

Sigh, i'm such a **** up.. ewe just imagining me when i'm 40 yrs old. So baldy. >_<

 

[Bacchus]

I'm going to give you all this information and then a link:

British Columbia: You can practice unrestricted by doing a one-year internship in the province and by completing the MCC examination. If you do not wish to do this, you will be restricted to manipulation.

Alberta: You must complete the MCC examination and pass it in order to practice.

Saskatchewan: It appears you can only practice "osteopathy" but the limitations aren't well defined.

Manitoba: As of 2002, osteopathic physicians are recognized and may practice without limitation.

Ontario: You must complete an allopathic residency but can practice as a DO.

Quebec: DO-friendly for 30 years. You have to do one year of an internship in the province and must pass the French-literacy/fluency test.

New Brunswick: Unlimited practice rights as a DO.

Prince Edward Island: Cannot practice and a licensure isn't planned for the future.

Newfoundland: As of 2002 there was a plan to provide a licensure pathway however this may not be fully instated at this current time.

Territories: If you can get licensed in a province you can get licensed in a territory.

Canadian Armed Forces: Unlimited practice rights.

This information comes from the Canadian Osteopathic Association:
http://www.osteopathic.ca/Practice%20Opportunities.2006.doc

All in all, you can be trained as a DO and practice in Canada. You are not extremely limited in practice unless you live on Prince Edward Island or in Saskatchewan. See the above document for all the details.

 

[Bacchus]

Relax, you don't need to commit and additional 10-15 years to undergrad. You can become a DO and do just fine. See above. Now, go take a breather, get a drink, or take a nap and come back less paranoid. Your situation is not off in the deep end just yet.

 

[koopa_troopa]

With regards to re-taking courses for DO, make sure you can re-take classes at your university. I know some Canadian schools do not allow this.

As for your mental health, don't assume that you are over it. There is no point jumping back into things if you aren't ready and messing up. Going to the Caribbean and US is expensive, so if you/your family do not have a lot of money, there is no point in rushing in, flunking out, and having a huge debt from some bank. If you do go to these schools, make sure you are ready.

I would suggest you take these three years of your suspension and work. Do something productive. I don't really see anypoint pretending to go to school. I don't really think auditing classes is really worth it. If you get a job, you will be able to get money to pay for your education and possibly become independent of them. I doubt you will be able to impress any researchers, but if you have a family/friend connection maybe they could hook you up with a research job. You should also consider getting extensive clinical experience.

As for your parents, you need to tell them. I know it is hard and you are really ashamed, but you it appears you have become addicted to lieing. Let them get mad at you. Just take it. Don't be afraid to piss off your parents. You can't live your life trying to make them happy. But since it appears they are paying for your education, they do deserve to know about your suspensions.

But even before you do all this, make sure you really want to be a doctor. Judging by your posts, you seem to be interested in it if for the reputation and money. I don't mean to be condescending, but you really need to want to be doctor. It is a long process and if you can't focus for 2 years of undergrad, how can you succeed through 4 years of medical school and 3-6 years of residency? If you screw up in medical school, you will not be given 3 chances.

 

[MaximusD]

StellarRay, most of all, don't start until you are sure and ready that you will not let yourself fail, no matter what you decide. You're going to have to toughen up, guy, no two ways around it.

No matter what you decide to do, I would get your volunteer ass into your local ER, pronto. Don't miss a single shift. No matter which route you end up taking, you'll have some substantial hours and experience to present, as well as a good shot at some letters of reference.

Maximus, fyi, there is no apostrophe, it's 'Physician Assistant'. And make no mistake, GPAs, including O-Chem grades, are just as competitive for most PA programs now.

Grow a thicker skin. I have plenty of friends that are in PA programs both here at PCOM and elsewhere and in no way do I look down at them or think that being a physician (no 's) assistant is subpar as compared to a DO or MD. It simply wasn't for me, and what I was trying to demonstrate was that it was a wake-up call for me that I might not attain my dream of BECOMING A PHYSICIAN if I didn't buck up.

Don't allow yourself to become the nitpicking whiny SDNer that I've come to hate.

 

[Flaxmoore]

.Okay, let's see what we know..
. .
.You're 5 years into college with a 1.37 GPA, on academic suspension for 3 years. You say you've made your decision, and that medical school is it..
. .
.There are several things you could do, if being a doctor is your final goal..
. .
.1. Repeat all your coursework from undergrad, and apply DO. This is predicated on your doing well on the MCAT, as well as shooting the lights out in courses that your GPA indicates you struggled with. However, there is a "con" to all these "pros". AACOMAS, the application clearinghouse for DO schools, does only factor in the most recent completion of courses for your GPA. However, the older courses are still on your transcript. They would thus need to be explained, and you're going to have to convince a DO admissions committee that they should take you with a 3.4 (for example) and a past history of 1.37 over someone with the 3.4 first time out. That makes it harder- the typical 3.4-3.6 GPA for a DO school won't cut it- you're going to have to put up a 3.7 or more. Passage rate on the USMLE Step I tends to be decent for DO schools- about 81% for first-timers, 49% for repeaters..
. .
.2. Post-baccalaureate work, SMP, then MD. This is hardest. It would take an incredible amount of credits to get your GPA to the point that any SMP would consider you- the SMP I finished essentially has a cutoff of 3.5. It gets you the MD in the end, but this will take years. Passage rate on the USMLE Step I is best of all three options- 95% for first-timers, 65% for repeaters..
. .
.3. Caribbean. Expensive, and hard. Even if you were accepted to a Caribbean school that spoke your own language fluently (I'm assuming English, since you're from Ontario), there's still the issues of cost, of living in a foreign country, and the overall poor passage rate on the USMLE Step I- 70% first try, 37% for repeats. Getting in will be rough, and the Step I scores make it a questionable decision..
. .
.No matter what you do, you're facing a hard road. It'll take years. Get used to that fact, pick wisely, and go..

 

[MaximusD]

.Okay, let's see what we know..
. .
.You're 5 years into college with a 1.37 GPA, on academic suspension for 3 years. You say you've made your decision, and that medical school is it..
. .
.There are several things you could do, if being a doctor is your final goal..
. .
.1. Repeat all your coursework from undergrad, and apply DO. This is predicated on your doing well on the MCAT, as well as shooting the lights out in courses that your GPA indicates you struggled with. However, there is a "con" to all these "pros". AACOMAS, the application clearinghouse for DO schools, does only factor in the most recent completion of courses for your GPA. However, the older courses are still on your transcript. They would thus need to be explained, and you're going to have to convince a DO admissions committee that they should take you with a 3.4 (for example) and a past history of 1.37 over someone with the 3.4 first time out. That makes it harder- the typical 3.4-3.6 GPA for a DO school won't cut it- you're going to have to put up a 3.7 or more. Passage rate on the USMLE Step I tends to be decent for DO schools- about 81% for first-timers, 49% for repeaters..
. .
.2. Post-baccalaureate work, SMP, then MD. This is hardest. It would take an incredible amount of credits to get your GPA to the point that any SMP would consider you- the SMP I finished essentially has a cutoff of 3.5. It gets you the MD in the end, but this will take years. Passage rate on the USMLE Step I is best of all three options- 95% for first-timers, 65% for repeaters..
. .
.3. Caribbean. Expensive, and hard. Even if you were accepted to a Caribbean school that spoke your own language fluently (I'm assuming English, since you're from Ontario), there's still the issues of cost, of living in a foreign country, and the overall poor passage rate on the USMLE Step I- 70% first try, 37% for repeats. Getting in will be rough, and the Step I scores make it a questionable decision..
. .
.No matter what you do, you're facing a hard road. It'll take years. Get used to that fact, pick wisely, and go..

Flaxmoore, why is USMLE pass-rate a consideration for DO schools? We have our own residencies and our own licensing exam that has, on average, a >90% pass rate for each school. The top schools have 96-99% pass rates. More and more, fewer DO students are choosing the USMLE and are choosing to only take the COMLEX. Despite this, we are matching into MD GME more successfully than ever. This is especially true of the oldest and most respected DO schools such as PCOM, CCOM, NYCOM, DMU, TCOM, and KCUMB, to list a few.

 

[StellarRay]

Bacchus:
Hey, thank you so much for the info and the link to the document. Although, I really don't mind working in the States if it comes to that it's nice to know that DOs can be used here in Canada as well (with the exception of Sask and PEI).

But without starting a flamewar, can I ask what the main differences between a MD and a DO are? I've read the sticky, I've read some articles including wiki.. they just seem virtually the same. The wiki article actually makes MDs seem more cold and technical whereas DOs were more touchy feely? 😵

koopa troopa:
You nearly gave me a heart attack! I can't believe I just took it for granted that retaking courses was possible. So I looked it up in the course calendar (it's a little dated.. will have to ask my academic counsellor soon) and from what I understand the exact words were:

- Students may not re-register for credit in a course they have they have already passed that course.

- Where students may not register in courses for credit, they may register in them as extra courses. In such cases, both registrations in the course are shown on the student's record but the second grade is not included in the student's GPA nor does the course count towards the degree.

So if I'm reading this right, I'm able to retake courses I did poorly in but passed. It's just that the GPA won't count towards my cGPA. But DO med schools would still consider my higher mark, right? Maybe I should just try and find a new university that would accept my sorry ass and start over instead of waiting 3 yrs for the suspension to wear off...

By the way, please please please lets stay away from my personal issues including why I want to be a doctor. If you want to read what I've replied to that it's somewhere in the premed101 thread. But honestly, in the end of the day it doesn't mean much what I have to say about it. There are going to be people who don't believe a word of it, there might be a few supporters, but there's really no point getting into that... Because then we end up getting off-topic (as in the other thread). I just need to know what my options are and what do I have to do to get there. Give me the black and white with maybe a pinch of grey. ^^

Thanks for all the info guys. Discovering new options is just really amazing.

EDIT:
Flaxmoore:
"However, the older courses are still on your transcript. They would thus need to be explained, and you're going to have to convince a DO admissions committee that they should take you with a 3.4 (for example) and a past history of 1.37 over someone with the 3.4 first time out. That makes it harder- the typical 3.4-3.6 GPA for a DO school won't cut it- you're going to have to put up a 3.7 or more."

I'm assuming you mean 3.7 GPA (ie 80%-84%?) after my new grades right? I'm using the Ontario OMSAS GPA conversion table. What is a 3.4-3.6 GPA? High 70's?

OMSAS GPA System:
4.0 = 90%-100%
3.9 = 85%-89%
3.7 = 80%-84%
3.3 = 77-79%
3.0 = 73%-76%
2.7 = 70%-72%

I was hoping that if I did do well that they'd actually see it as a positive upward trend. That I was like a new person. But yeah, I can see how easily it's safer to give the med school seat to the kid that got the 3.4 GPA the first time around.

 

[Flaxmoore]

Flaxmoore, why is USMLE pass-rate a consideration for DO schools? We have our own residencies and our own licensing exam that has, on average, a >90% pass rate for each school. The top schools have 96-99% pass rates. More and more, fewer DO students are choosing the USMLE and are choosing to only take the COMLEX. Despite this, we are matching into MD GME more successfully than ever. This is especially true of the oldest and most respected DO schools such as PCOM, CCOM, NYCOM, DMU, TCOM, and KCUMB, to list a few.

I know full well of the COMLEX, but I was fairly certain that you needed the USMLE to practice in some states regardless of actual degree. If I'm wrong, consider that rescinded. 🙂

 

[Bacchus]

Bacchus:
Hey, thank you so much for the info and the link to the document. Although, I really don't mind working in the States if it comes to that it's nice to know that DOs can be used here in Canada as well (with the exception of Sask and PEI).

But without starting a flamewar, can I ask what the main differences between a MD and a DO are? I've read the sticky, I've read some articles including wiki.. they just seem virtually the same. The wiki article actually makes MDs seem more cold and technical whereas DOs were more touchy feely? 😵

You could call DOs more touchy feely because the teach osteopathic manipulative medicine (OMM) in addition to all of the other necessary information you need. OMM is a modality that exists and is used in various situations to better ailments that a patient has. I don't want to get into all the details, they are available on the web. MDs and DOs are the same and I've glad you reached this consensus. To further this insinuation let me include this question that is on Virginia College of Osteopathic Medicine's secondary application:

Osteopathic medicine parallels allopathic medicine but has principles and practices that are distinct. Which of these principles and practices are of greatest interest to you and why?

As you can see, DO schools agree that the medicine is identical except for a few different things. The practice they refer to is OMM and the principle is treating the entire body and not just the ailment (but this is more historical than anything).

 

[ofoshoukno]

Hi everyone,

I've been avoiding posting this thread all week because I was afraid of the answer that I would get. Recently I've spent quite alot of time at premed101.com trying to figure out if becoming a doctor was still possible for me. Long story short, I screwed up in university. Really bad. So bad that I don't think anyone else has screwed up as badly as I have (unless you got caught for academic misconduct/plagerism). I've been suspended for 3 years from my school (University of Toronto).

When I first went into university I was unable to cope with the transition. My grades slipped. I panicked and instead of seeking help, I feared I was falling behind and at the same time I was ashamed. Like a fish out of water, I began to flail and things just got worse. I got depressed because after my first screw up I thought my academic career was already over. I became really stressed because I could not tell my parents. I lived a life of hiding. And after 5 years, I'm currently suspended for 3 years and I have a cumulative GPA of 1.37.

But now that I have hit rock-bottom, absolute rock-bottom... I really would like a chance at medicine. I finally realise that this is what I want and not just in school to appease my parents. I've finally found the passion and interest to commit myself to something I want.

But I fear that I've screwed up so much that my past will haunt me regardless if I were to even hypotheotically get straight 4.0's in a new undergrad degree.

I live in Ontario, Canada. There are, I believe, 3 med schools here in Canada (Queen's, University of Western Ontario, and Dalhousie) that have an interesting deal in which if you don't meet the regular GPA cut-off then they will consider you based on your "best 2 years" or "last 2 years" of full-time study. Currently, this appears to be my only chance at med school here in Canada. I was wondering if any med schools in the States have a similar option?

My full story can be found here, along with all the troll accusations and how my life must be a joke... all 35 pages, 340 reponses, 15,643 views of it:
http://www.premed101.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28159

As it stands, I believe my only options for med school are:
- Applying to Queen's, UWO, Dalhousie through their secondary last/best 2 year deal
- Applying to a Carribean school (which is financially very scary and possibly impossible)

Anyways, my question is... is it too late for me? I know that some places are considerate of "trends". I'm wondering if I do very well in a new degree, ace the MCAT, and change my life around.. will I ever have a realistic chance at med school in the States? =\

Thank you in advance.. I know it was alot to read. But there you go, my life completely exposed. Again.

What do you mean by suspension? Academic? For academic dishonesty?

 

[cwfergus]

MaximusD:
cwfergus:
As far as I know, there are only 3 Canadian med schools that have kickbacks. Queen's and Dalhousie look at your last 2 years of undergrad and I believe that Western looks at your best 2 years. The reason I'm here inquiring about med schools in the States is because I'd like to know all my options really.

And financially speaking, I'm going to be in quite a bit of debt (anothers 4 years of undergrad, moving out on my own, OSAP, loans, ...med school?) so it helps to know that our American counterparts usually get paid more than we do for the same job.

Also, broadly speaking American med schools supposedly have bit better admissions than Canadian med schools from what I've read. Obviously you have your top-tiers down there in the States just like you have your top-tiers up here. So I guess I was hoping that there might be a little of that "American Dream" that you people speak ad nauseum about for little ol' me. =\

Hmm thats not true, alot of the schools have some sort of kicks like (with help of a friend),

University of Alberta will drop your lowest year
University of Dalhousie will take your last two years
University of Saskatchewan will take your best two years
University of Manitoba will drop a certain number of courses
University of Western Ontario will take your best two years
University of Queens will take your most recent two years
University of Toronto will drop a certain number of courses


(UBC and UofC both take all 4 years..)

(not sure of..) McGill University, McMaster University, Memorial University, University of Sherbrooke,