Is Med School worth 400k debt?

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ehwhatsupdoc

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I feel like going to medical school is not worth the debt in my situation. I'm 29 and already have significant debt from a masters and undergrad. I figured that I would be 400k in debt after medical school after accounting for compounding interest. This would turn to a least 500k after doing a 3 year IM or EM residency, significantly more if i choose something else. It would be close to impossible to pay the interest while in residency since I would be paying over $30k on interest alone plus tax on a resident salary would leave me with less then 5 grand to live off. On top of this I'd be approaching 40 after I'm done with residency. It's a very difficult decision for me. I know if I do this, I would not be doing it for the money, since I'd mote than likely be in 500k in debt after residency. But i feel like it would be foolish to take on that kind of debt especially with unknowns in Medicare reimbursements. Salaries will likely decrease and reimbursements will go down. I currently make 75k and have a pension working for the Fed, but not challenged or happy with what I'm doing. So should i pursue something I would find meaningful even if it means my financial ruin?

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yep
debt is debt. slowly pay it off. it's like knowing you're going to work 1-2 days without pay each month
or you can do military, indian health services....etc that'll reduce your debt
or work at some undesirable rule area
either way don't let finance skew your thoughts
 
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Med school is often not financially "worth it" for the nontrad, and the more nontraditional you are, the more true that becomes. If this is primarily a financial decision for you, then I recommend that you not go to medical school, particularly if you are already well-established in your current career. It is almost certainly not going to be "worth it" for financial reasons alone.

If you have other reasons for wanting to do medicine, particularly if you see it as your calling, then that may outweigh the fact that med school is likely not your best financial decision. In that case, there are things you can do to minimize your debt and pay it back sooner, including working in under served areas. But regardless, you will have to sacrifice a lot of time and income to go to med school. So again, don't start down this road unless the nontangible benefits of entering medicine outweigh the costs to you.
 
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I hate to discourage anyone from pursuing their dream, but that is a lot of money. I don't think I would have went to medical school if I was looking at 400k debt.
 
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Does anyone know how IBR works? After your loans are forgiven after 10 or 20 years would you still be liable for paying taxes on the forgiven debt since it would be considered a gift by the IRS?
 
As far I know you'd have to pay taxes on the forgiven portion unless you are using pslf alongside ibr.
 
I have the same question. Good question.
However, where is the breakeven? I mean you're going to be making money as a resident.... A salary that is somewhat close to what you are making now.
And if you look at is as a return on investment it might be worth it... at least 20 years of over 200k/yr > then you would have been making if you stay in your current job. Detailed calculations might need to be done.
 
I feel like going to medical school is not worth the debt in my situation. I'm 29 and already have significant debt from a masters and undergrad. I figured that I would be 400k in debt after medical school after accounting for compounding interest. This would turn to a least 500k after doing a 3 year IM or EM residency, significantly more if i choose something else. It would be close to impossible to pay the interest while in residency since I would be paying over $30k on interest alone plus tax on a resident salary would leave me with less then 5 grand to live off. On top of this I'd be approaching 40 after I'm done with residency. It's a very difficult decision for me. I know if I do this, I would not be doing it for the money, since I'd mote than likely be in 500k in debt after residency. But i feel like it would be foolish to take on that kind of debt especially with unknowns in Medicare reimbursements. Salaries will likely decrease and reimbursements will go down. I currently make 75k and have a pension working for the Fed, but not challenged or happy with what I'm doing. So should i pursue something I would find meaningful even if it means my financial ruin?
I think "financial ruin" is a little dramatic for what you are talking about. As mentioned above, it is a ton of debt, but there are repayment options, and you will likely be able to pay your loans and still live comfortably even if you do primary care. Having a large debt load is not equivalent to financial ruin if taking on the debt also provides you the income to pay it off. As mentioned, probably not a really sound financial decision, but if you really believe you SHOULD be a doctor, you will certainly not need to be on food stamps as an attending, even with a half a million dollar debt.
 
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It really depends on how badly you want to be a doctor, right? When you consider your age and how many years you would be working as a doctor before retirement - then it seems like it would almost be a financial wash - meaning you'd end up with the same spending money/savings as a non-doctor vs. doctor (depends on specialty, years of working, but in general)

So I think the question is: "Do I want to be a doctor so badly that I will work hard for several years for no net increase in spending money/savings?"
 
I think "financial ruin" is a little dramatic for what you are talking about. As mentioned above, it is a ton of debt, but there are repayment options, and you will likely be able to pay your loans and still live comfortably even if you do primary care. Having a large debt load is not equivalent to financial ruin if taking on the debt also provides you the income to pay it off. As mentioned, probably not a really sound financial decision, but if you really believe you SHOULD be a doctor, you will certainly not need to be on food stamps as an attending, even with a half a million dollar debt.

Yes I agree that "financial ruin" was a bit over dramatic. I was in panic mode after crunching the numbers.
 
Thank you all for your advice and insight about whether or not it's worth the debt for a non-traditional like myself. After doing some more number crunching, I've come to realize that it would still be worth it, even with 400-500 debt for primary care/EM or 600 thou debt for something like ortho, rad onc or anesthesiology which I'm also interested in. I think my best bet is to apply to only state schools (NY) and hope they give me a chance (ug gpa is 3.0 grad gpa 3.65, currently studying for MCAT), I also have a unique story (being evacuated from a war torn country by US Navy Seals). I'm just hoping they grant me an interview, since even if I don't get in they have this post bacc program for URMs and economically disadvantaged students and they give you conditional acceptance. The main thing is you must have gotten an interview and not get accepted to be eligible.
 
It is a recurring rule of thumb in this sub forum that it is still financially "worth it" to switch careers into medicine at age 30, a complete wash at age 40, and a financially poor move to switch to med school beyond age 45.

There is more to life than finances, of course, but that's how the numbers always seem to land when only finances are taken into consideration.

I fall into the "complete wash" category. Sometimes people ask me if I wish I had stayed in the old career, and I find the thought revolting. I'm having way too much fun right now and I still look forward to what my medicine career has in store for me.
 
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Hello everyone, I'm a "complete washer" myself. I left a 150K/yr job to become a Physician someday in the future.

Money wasn't my chief factor, nor was my age (45) for me it's about living an almost lost dream. Can't put a price tag on that!
 
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I think it really boils down to a few questions that you should ask yourself?

1. How much do I love medicine?

2. Is it feasible to sacrifice so many things in my life in order to pursue my dream?

3. How important to me is money? If I don't end up making 400k a year, will I be ok with that?

4. Will my family support me through this incredibly lengthy endeavor, and will I be able to make sure their lives are comfortable while I do?

500k is a lot, but you will be able to pay it off.
 
@ehwhatsupdoc ... >300,000k is not worth it IMO. Do a straight 3-year NP program that might cost you less than 80k...
 
As someone currently facing financial ruin, I can say yes.

Just be sure your aggregate debt won't exceed any underwriting standards before beginning the journey. Few things are worse than finding out there's no loan for the last semester.
 
... at least 20 years of over 200k/yr > then you would have been making if you stay in your current job. Detailed calculations might need to be done.

Um no. You have to adjust everything into today's dollars to compare. A $200k income that you don't earn for a Decade isn't worth $200k. The time value of money is a pretty important concept here. You might be at the tail end of your career before you come out ahead with that kind of debt, and that assumes you don't have any setbacks that require more debt or a Shorter work horizon.

As Q mentioned don't do this path if you are asking if it's "worth it" from a Dollars and cents perspective. At that kind of debt it probably isn't. Or (largely because of the time value of money) if you are qualified to do any other six digit job it won't be worth it. but if it's a career you'd be happy in even if you are just treading water financially, that's totally different because you can't really put a price on career satisfaction.
 
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It is a recurring rule of thumb in this sub forum that it is still financially "worth it" to switch careers into medicine at age 30, a complete wash at age 40, and a financially poor move to switch to med school beyond age 45...

I would say it's not going to be a great financial move at 30 either if you started with a decent earning potential or the debt/interest was high. Your "rule of thumb" is problematic because it doesn't take into account original career income, promotion potential, debt, interest rate, or specialty chosen/attained. In general it's not going to be "worth it" at any age if the debt is that high if your focus is $. But it's totally worth it if you enjoy being a doctor more than anything else.

Every interviewer I met when applying to med school correctly warned me that I would be unlikely to get back to the relative lifetime income I had when applying. I'm much further down the road and am still convinced what they said was 100% accurate. And that's not a problem because I'm enjoying what I'm doing. You can't put a price tag on that.
 
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Agree with both of L2D's posts. I'd also point out that half a million dollars is a crap ton of money, and those of you in the unenviable position of owing that much money (no matter what your age) absolutely *should* be concerned about how you'll ever be able to pay it all back. It will be incredibly painful to pay back that kind of debt, to the point that it will severely restrict your career and lifestyle options for decades, maybe even for the rest of your life. It will affect your ability to provide a typical upper middle class lifestyle for your family and where you can afford to live. That's not something to casually dismiss like it's no big deal, especially if you're a person who doesn't tend to live well below your means. I have some very unhappy colleagues who are working more than they want to be in a career/location they hate because they are servicing high debt/high consumption lifestyles. So if you have lots of debt and you also fall in the trap of spending most of what you earn, it's going to be an unbelievably huge f'ing deal. Don't lie to yourself or listen to other people's foolishness telling you otherwise.

Again, financially, going to med school is almost certainly a stupid move, especially for those of you who are starting out already in a professional career and supporting a spouse/kids. Don't pursue med school because you think you'll come out ahead financially. You have to want to do this in spite of it being a bad financial deal, not because you think it will make you come out ahead.
 
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The other thing to consider is that you will more than likely end up with a life-long partner who will also have an income. Generally speaking, A-type people end up with A-type partners who make a good living for themselves as well. It doesn't take 300k/year to live comfortably depending on how lavish of a lifestyle you chose to live.

Let's say you would like to buy a house for $900,000, and you put down $150,000. That makes your monthly mortgage ~$4,500 at 4%. Include loans paid back monthly for 20 years 6% would mean you are paying $3,800/month. So you would owe $9,300/month. You are 29. You could be an attending by 40. If you practice until you are 75, there is a solid 15 years where you won't be paying off loans. Let's say you make an average of $250,000 over those 35 years. That means that before taxes you are looking at just shy of 9 million. And once again, this is assuming you are the only one in your family unit taking home a paycheck. Financial ruin? No. Years of owing lots of money? Yes. If you love it, don't let the financial aspect deter you. That's just my opinion. You cannot put a price on fulfillment and happiness.
 
How much of this debt is from your undergraduate and graduate work? How much of the debt is actually going to be tied to the medical education? I'm wondering how much of the debt you currently have could be reduced/forgiven before taking on med school debt...
 
This is always an interesting question to me. People purchase real estate all the time. They take on a mortgage, and often find a way to pay it off in less than 30 years--even if they take out a 30 year mortgage. As long as you are engaged in steady work, it's doable. If you want to have a bit more of an easily obtainable nest egg, OK. Go ahead and keep working that job for x amount of years that leaves you feeling pale and dry at the end of the day.

Don't get me wrong. I am not saying medicine won't do this to you as well. It certainly may. It really depends; which is why the old adage still stands, "If you can see yourself happily doing anything else other than medicine, do it."

You know, there is a point where the non-trad threads, with all the insights based on experience, become more and more of a vehicle of insecure jadedness. Sure, the traditionals may have less to lose b/c of time--I don't know. You can make sound arguments either way. But at what point do the non-trads become a bit whiney and incredibly insecure in voicing their queries? I mean, you may not like medicine. . .at all. Yes; you will probably be in a frigate full of debt before you know it. Or, you may not make it into a med school program; or you may not make it through. Let's see, what else. OK, your partner may leave you or be unsupportive. Any or even all of these scenarios or worse could play out. You could be younger, like the trads who pick medicine at early age, and like a number of physicians I have known, whom died young or certainly way to soon to be close to retirement. (Don't know why I seem to know a lot of docs that died early. Maybe it's something about the areas in which I have worked, and those that work such areas either work themselves into stress-related poor health or engage in high-risk activities.)

I guess I think that before anyone asks the question about medicine, it behooves them to really get down and dirty with it and explore the world of it through clinical experiences (lots of them) and TONS of shadowing (with a ton of different kinds of practitioners). Clinical experiences are better; b/c there is less staging and fluff. If you work enough clinically speaking--in enough of the right areas, you will hit reality head on. So, getting the clinical experiences IMHO, well, that's the due diligence required prior to asking any of these other questions about "Is it worth it?". That's the essential experience that will trump all these other questions, which will probably indicate to you, unless you are already independently wealthy, with an incredibly supportive spouse, and excellent wellness practices and good genetics and common sense regarding high-risk activities, that for a sound number of folks, MEDICINE WILL NOT BE WORTH IT.

And spend time with primary care physicians that struggle with all the new, and ever-expanding regulations--observing the ridiculous amount of paperwork/computer work that keeps them from getting home at a decent hour to eat dinner with their partners. Bathe in the amount of insurance BS that stands in the way of sound physician practice. Walk routinely with the many folks with some kind of psychiatric issue (parents of sick kids or just adults with issues) and all those that actually believe more Percocet or Oxys are the answer to their problems!!!

Then go rotate with a critical care fellow or attending in peds or adult and have your heart ripped out and your stress level maximized off the charts. Watch people throw kids on ECMO that haven't a hope in God's creation of getting a function heart or lung prior to bleeding out into their brains. Watch codes where you can literally smell death emanating from the unit and outside through the next floors. Listen to parents screaming in agony because nothing more can be done. Or, watch the 40 year post-open heart player, who decided to move into his next stage of cardiac rehab by stealing a smoke in the stairwell. Work with physicians and other healthcare professionals that are beaten up, tired, and who are pushing the whole crap rolls downhill on to you, and then think, "Is this what I really want for the rest of my life and will it be worth it?"

Until you walk through such scenarios enough, you will NOT know, regardless of what anyone else tells you on this or any other forum, if it's worth it financially or otherwise. Otherwise, you are squinting your eyes and peering with a tiny straw into the obscure.
 
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I think "financial ruin" is a little dramatic for what you are talking about. As mentioned above, it is a ton of debt, but there are repayment options, and you will likely be able to pay your loans and still live comfortably even if you do primary care. Having a large debt load is not equivalent to financial ruin if taking on the debt also provides you the income to pay it off. As mentioned, probably not a really sound financial decision, but if you really believe you SHOULD be a doctor, you will certainly not need to be on food stamps as an attending, even with a half a million dollar debt.

agree! - OP there is a big difference between "not the best financial decision/not financially worth it" and "financial ruin".

also, if you are comfortable sharing, exactly how much debt will you be starting med school with? I know someone who is a resident right now and he told me he started med school with $90k in student loans from his undergrad and master's degrees. He said it was tough but doable
 
$400k in nondischargeable student loans is a crap ton of debt. I won't reiterate any of the great points made by the other posters in this thread, but the couple of things that I would keep in mind are the following: (1) the older you are at the start of this adventure, the more you have to consider things that 22 year olds just don't--like a medical crisis (for you, a spouse, or your kids) that might crater your ability to work prematurely. At 40 I'm already seeing some of my friends face cancer and some other medical issues that none of us REALLY considered a possibility when we were 25. Make sure you have a good disability policy, and life insurance (assuming there are people you would leave behind if you left them with a bunch of student loan debt). Most people are one major illness away from financial ruin. I was diagnosed with an autoimmune disease in my 30s, that--while it won't affect my ability to be a doctor in many fields--it also means I won't be considering a surgery residency when the time comes. Frankly, I might have considered a career in surgery in my 20s and now it's a non-issue due to my age and my medical condition. And (2) when you finish residency, if $400k (or even $200k) is your debt burden, don't immediately go out and buy that $500k house and $60k car. Don't "live the doctor lifestyle". Take a couple of years, live at residency income level (you've already been living at it for X years), and put all of your extra money into your loans. The big problem I have seen with doctors (who frequently file for bankruptcy, by the way), is they want to look and live the lifestyle they think doctors should project. Those huge revolving debt payments won't seem so fun in years 10 and 15. It's much easier to continue living a "lower standard" lifestyle that you are already accustomed to for a year or two than it is to try to cut back on a big mortgage and car payments once you have incurred those debts. Continuous revolving debt is not fun. Trust me.

I would not let it dissuade me from becoming a doctor if that's what you really want, Law2Doc's point about enjoying your work is huge, and I wouldn't trade what I'm doing now for anything else. But don't get caught up in what the doctor lifestyle can buy you.
 
Judging by the way you phrase the title thread, I'd say no, it's not worth it. If you worded your post differently, the answers may be different.

You already make good money at 75k. That's a lot to give up to restart at the bottom of the totem pole as a med student or intern and being treated like a child for many years.

That said, I don't expect physician salaries to go down when the demand is increasing so much without new increases in supply of physicians. The AMA has so much power. Obamacare is not going to override economic realities.
 
Med school isn't worth $400k of debt.

Medicine is probably worth it, depending on how you feel about medicine and where you end up.

Unfortunately, you only really begin to understand this at the end of 3rd year.
 
$400k in nondischargeable student loans is a crap ton of debt. I won't reiterate any of the great points made by the other posters in this thread, but the couple of things that I would keep in mind are the following: (1) the older you are at the start of this adventure, the more you have to consider things that 22 year olds just don't--like a medical crisis (for you, a spouse, or your kids) that might crater your ability to work prematurely. At 40 I'm already seeing some of my friends face cancer and some other medical issues that none of us REALLY considered a possibility when we were 25. Make sure you have a good disability policy, and life insurance (assuming there are people you would leave behind if you left them with a bunch of student loan debt). Most people are one major illness away from financial ruin. I was diagnosed with an autoimmune disease in my 30s, that--while it won't affect my ability to be a doctor in many fields--it also means I won't be considering a surgery residency when the time comes. Frankly, I might have considered a career in surgery in my 20s and now it's a non-issue due to my age and my medical condition. And (2) when you finish residency, if $400k (or even $200k) is your debt burden, don't immediately go out and buy that $500k house and $60k car. Don't "live the doctor lifestyle". Take a couple of years, live at residency income level (you've already been living at it for X years), and put all of your extra money into your loans. The big problem I have seen with doctors (who frequently file for bankruptcy, by the way), is they want to look and live the lifestyle they think doctors should project. Those huge revolving debt payments won't seem so fun in years 10 and 15. It's much easier to continue living a "lower standard" lifestyle that you are already accustomed to for a year or two than it is to try to cut back on a big mortgage and car payments once you have incurred those debts. Continuous revolving debt is not fun. Trust me.

I would not let it dissuade me from becoming a doctor if that's what you really want, Law2Doc's point about enjoying your work is huge, and I wouldn't trade what I'm doing now for anything else. But don't get caught up in what the doctor lifestyle can buy you.

Actuaries will actually tell you that the older you are, the lower the chance of an unforeseen future tragedy, as you have fewer years left for this to occur. The guy who is already 50 and still healthy is more likely to live well past the national average life span than the guy who is 21. Odds of something happening when one is old are certainly higher, but if you look at it longitudinally, the person who hasn't traversed as much time is much more vulnerable. Our life insurance industry makes bets based on these truisms. Your post seemed to suggest otherwise. Other than this I totally agree with what you are saying.
 
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That said, I don't expect physician salaries to go down when the demand is increasing so much without new increases in supply of physicians. The AMA has so much power. Obamacare is not going to override economic realities.

Lol -- Good one. The AMA is a toothless dog that hasn't shown much influence since the 70s. I don't even think most doctors even belong to it anymore. Right now job markets are tight in several medical specialties, and reimbursements continue to get slashed. If doctors aren't earning 10% less in a few years I'll be shocked. That's still good money, but it flies in the face of your supply and demand argument. Part of the problem is there isn't actually a shortage of doctors in the more populated regions or more desirable specialties. It's a distribution problem. So regionally, supply and demand works opposite of what it should nationally. Since every plastic surgeon wants to be in Beverly Hills there's a glut of them there and $ drop -- nobody cares that you can't even find a Plastic surgeon for 200 miles in rural Montana.

[And i don't want to turn this into political debate but this has very little to do with Obamacare (which actually strives to put more patients into the system, albeit at lower reimbursement). We started sinking along with the economy under our prior president, if not before].
 
The AMA is a toothless dog that hasn't shown much influence since the 70s. I don't even think most doctors even belong to it anymore. Right now job markets are tight in several medical specialties, and reimbursements continue to get slashed. If doctors aren't earning 10% less in a few years I'll be shocked. That's still good money, but it flies in the face of your supply and demand argument. Part of the problem is there isn't actually a shortage of doctors in the more populated regions or more desirable specialties. It's a distribution problem. So regionally, supply and demand works opposite of what it should nationally. Since every plastic surgeon wants to be in Beverly Hills there's a glut of them there and $ drop -- nobody cares that you can't even find a Plastic surgeon for 200 miles in rural Montana.
[And i don't want to turn this into political debate but this has very little to do with Obamacare (which actually strives to put more patients into the system, albeit at lower reimbursement). We started sinking along with the economy under our prior president, if not before].

Something that worries me a lot is the fact that the cost of attending med school continues to rise. According to AAMC data, the median cost of attendance for the class of 2013 (most recent data I could find) was $290k for private schools and $220k for public schools and this continues to rise every year
 
Something that worries me a lot is the fact that the cost of attending med school continues to rise. According to AAMC data, the median cost of attendance for the class of 2013 (most recent data I could find) was $290k for private schools and $220k for public schools and this continues to rise every year

No question. I can foresee a not too distant future where doctors salaries drop 10% while tuition debt rises 20% and suddenly a doctor isn't as good a career move.
 
no its not, esp if u have to ask. Just go pre nurse and settle.
 
Those of us who pursue this path at a later age are not focused on the numbers and bottom line financial aspect. It's about making a difference and personal fulfillment. I will graduate from medical school this spring at the age of 43. Since I plan to do an IM subspecialty my training will not be complete until I am 49 or so. So what? I believe I can get about 20 good years out of this career after fellowship and, God willing, I hope to work right up until the day I die.

Some things that made this career change easier for me: no spouse, no children, and my previous career paid poorly. I had very little to lose. YMMV.
 
Some things that made this career change easier for me: no spouse, no children, and my previous career paid poorly. I had very little to lose. YMMV.

This is an important distinction that gets overlooked a lot on the forums, I think. Many of the nontrads asking the "is the worth it?" question on here are coming from stable careers making what I would consider a very respectable income. For those of us who didn't make great money to begin with, it's a lot less scary to take the leap. It's even easier to be "all in" when you're living right at or below the poverty line already.
 
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Medicine won't financially ruin you. There are many loan forgiveness programs including working for a non-profit for ten years. You need to speak to a financial aid officer before you conclude the value of medical training.
 
Medicine won't financially ruin you. There are many loan forgiveness programs including working for a non-profit for ten years. You need to speak to a financial aid officer before you conclude the value of medical training.
This.

I don't get why people are choosing to ignore the existence of IBR/PAYE/etc. yes, you will be sacrificing 10-15% of your gross income for 2 decades following graduation, but IMO, this is a small price to pay to practice your dream career.

In regards to the tax bomb that you endure when the forgiveness takes place, just run your numbers and estimate the amount of forgiveness. Then, just assume that you will owe 40% of that amount. Now, you know how much you will need to save (or invest) every year so when time comes to pay the big bill, you are ready.

I realize that our generation of physicians will never enjoy the same financial independence previous generations enjoyed. However, you will still be able to have a decent living while repaying your debt.

Now I'm ready for some beating. Bring it on :)
 
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It all sounds so easy when you're still at the point in your career where you're living on loans....I'm laughing out loud at the idea of telling docs to save/invest to pay the IBR tax. Not because the idea is bad (it's a fantastic idea), but because that advice is so contrary to basic human nature. The drive to spend now and worry about tomorrow later is so strong that the vast majority of new physicians will never follow your advice (and will have every excuse in the world for why they can't possibly save that money). I'm truly continuing to live like a resident as an attending, but the more I learn about my colleagues' finances, the more I realize how much I'm the exception, not the rule. Just be sure to take your own advice when the time comes. I truly hope you manage to beat the odds and stay the course financially, but you wait and see how few of your colleagues do the same over the next decade. :-d
 
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This.

I don't get why people are choosing to ignore the existence of IBR/PAYE/etc. yes, you will be sacrificing 10-15% of your gross income for 2 decades following graduation, but IMO, this is a small price to pay to practice your dream career.

This.
 
Hello everyone, I'm a "complete washer" myself. I left a 150K/yr job to become a Physician someday in the future.

Money wasn't my chief factor, nor was my age (45) for me it's about living an almost lost dream. Can't put a price tag on that!
Good for you (especially if you were previously in the legal field like me!) This makes me not feel so bad about potentially leaving a 70k desk job in my current profession!
 
This is always an interesting question to me. People purchase real estate all the time. They take on a mortgage, and often find a way to pay it off in less than 30 years--even if they take out a 30 year mortgage. As long as you are engaged in steady work, it's doable. If you want to have a bit more of an easily obtainable nest egg, OK. Go ahead and keep working that job for x amount of years that leaves you feeling pale and dry at the end of the day.

Don't get me wrong. I am not saying medicine won't do this to you as well. It certainly may. It really depends; which is why the old adage still stands, "If you can see yourself happily doing anything else other than medicine, do it."

Yes, folks often take out 30 year loans for $400K and more mortgage debt (especially in "hot" real estate markets). That's a heck of a lot of debt, and plenty of ordinary folks routinely engage such debts. That includes folks who have jobs that pay around $100K/year. As an MD, your earning potential should be at least that much.

Purchasing real estate on loan is a bit different from financing your education. For one thing, a mortgage loan is a "secured" loan, and the security is provided by the real property your are financing. If you "default" on loan repayment, the lending institution can take your real estate as "collateral." Educational loans are not "secured" in this way. If you default on an educational loan the lending institutions can't take away your "property" because there really isn't any that was offered as collateral, though they could go after the property of anyone who "co-signed" your loan or they could place a lien against you for repayment.

The cost of higher education in the US has become a major issue. I attended college and graduate school (including medical school) in the late 1970's and mid-1980's. I wound up with less than $25K educational debt for all of my UG, graduate, and MS loan debt. I've discharged all of this debt...
 
Yes, folks often take out 30 year loans for $400K and more mortgage debt (especially in "hot" real estate markets). That's a heck of a lot of debt, and plenty of ordinary folks routinely engage such debts. That includes folks who have jobs that pay around $100K/year. As an MD, your earning potential should be at least that much.

Purchasing real estate on loan is a bit different from financing your education. For one thing, a mortgage loan is a "secured" loan, and the security is provided by the real property your are financing. If you "default" on loan repayment, the lending institution can take your real estate as "collateral." Educational loans are not "secured" in this way. If you default on an educational loan the lending institutions can't take away your "property" because there really isn't any that was offered as collateral, though they could go after the property of anyone who "co-signed" your loan or they could place a lien against you for repayment.

The cost of higher education in the US has become a major issue. I attended college and graduate school (including medical school) in the late 1970's and mid-1980's. I wound up with less than $25K educational debt for all of my UG, graduate, and MS loan debt. I've discharged all of this debt...

Now that you have been practicing medicine for nearly 3 decades and have seen the ups and downs of the medical profession, do you think it would have been doable to endure today's level of debt (400k+) while maintaining a decent lifestyle? From your experience, do you think it would have been financially worth it?
 
Yes, folks often take out 30 year loans for $400K and more mortgage debt (especially in "hot" real estate markets). That's a heck of a lot of debt, and plenty of ordinary folks routinely engage such debts. That includes folks who have jobs that pay around $100K/year. As an MD, your earning potential should be at least that much.

Purchasing real estate on loan is a bit different from financing your education. For one thing, a mortgage loan is a "secured" loan, and the security is provided by the real property your are financing. If you "default" on loan repayment, the lending institution can take your real estate as "collateral." Educational loans are not "secured" in this way. If you default on an educational loan the lending institutions can't take away your "property" because there really isn't any that was offered as collateral, though they could go after the property of anyone who "co-signed" your loan or they could place a lien against you for repayment.

The cost of higher education in the US has become a major issue. I attended college and graduate school (including medical school) in the late 1970's and mid-1980's. I wound up with less than $25K educational debt for all of my UG, graduate, and MS loan debt. I've discharged all of this debt...

I don't disagree with you. Moving into your point about educational loans from lending institutions and putting a lien against a co-signer's property, well, couldn't this happen with a student that owns real estate property? The bank sues and gets judgment and a lien is placed. So then the student couldn't sell or refinance the property until the lien is paid. The only way to avoid that is to not have the student's name on the title.

Although they will use the property as collateral, and your point is quite right, still, the banks don't want to be relators. They don't really want the real estate necessarily--or the fun of a short sale. To be honest, many people I know will pay their mortgages before they even think about buying food to eat. It is b/c they want to protect their investment. Naturally it is also b/c they want to have a place to live--and rent isn't necessarily cheaper--short of maybe the ghetto or something not too far from it. And most people aren't going to leave their jobs to move to an area with a cheaper COL if their homes fall into foreclosure--unless they are lucky enough to find a job in such an area with a higher salary. You go into foreclosure, well, there goes your credit AND home. Then again, if a student has a lien placed against his/her property, he /she is digging in way deep. Considering the many nontrads with families, it truly IS something to seriously think long and hard about.

At any rate, most folks I know take paying their mortgages seriously--just as seriously as paying back student loans. But again, to your point, it may end up such that a lot of medical school graduates will have to delay buying a home for more years nowadays. This may mean that they defer having families as well. The non-trads OTOH may have already started a family. Yes, it's true. No matter how you slice it, it sucks to be chained to such an incredible amount of money. For those without homes, as I said. They will probably be taking longer to buy homes. The economy is in a mess, and the value of the dollar will continue to drop, and really, who in the world will be able to afford higher education at some point?

But people are also supposed to look at taking out student loans as an investment in their future. Is this indeed a bad investment? It may be risky; but I see where you are going. It may lead to indentured servitude with increasingly greater amounts of time in servitude. But how far can any one individual take that? Isn't this an individual question? OTOH, isn't it a very necessary, pragmatic question? How far is higher education going with expanding this burden of servitude?

I firmly agree with you re: the cost of higher education in the US being a major issue. It's insane. I went to a private university, and although I value the experience, I definitely feel the pain of it. I have complained for years about how schools never give tuition increases a rest--endless, yearly increases in tuition. Education in the US is big business.

But remember, the OP was asking if it is worth it--or really, 'Will it be worth it?' So, even if the person loves being a physician, what I hear you suggesting is 'No. It still may not be worth it.' And that leads me to second Ibn's question above. To which I add, what is the equivalent of $400,000 (or the adjusted buying power) three decades ago--not even counting interest? One inflation calculator says it would have been as follows: "$400,000 of 2014 dollars would be worth $175,600.00 in 1984" (Inflation Calculator, 2014).

Now, based on your career in your particular specialty, would you say that the financial burden of the adjusted amount noted above would not have been worth it? I ask this b/c, if you feel this way; what might the family practice or other primary care physicians from that period feel, given that adjusted amount? All things considered, it may further make the case for people opting not to go into primary care. That makes me very sad.
 
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Now that you have been practicing medicine for nearly 3 decades and have seen the ups and downs of the medical profession, do you think it would have been doable to endure today's level of debt (400k+) while maintaining a decent lifestyle? From your experience, do you think it would have been financially worth it?

My honest opinion...no, I do not think so, from a strictly financial perspective. But that is just my opinion, and it's based largely on my personal views about going into "debt." I have to admit that I have rather old-fashioned views about buying anything (including an education) on "credit." I know that our modern economy runs on "credit" and interest payments on loans. There is certainly a place for such economic activity, especially when buying something like a home that few of us can pay for outright.

But we've gone overboard, compared to our predecessors, in accumulating such unsecured debts (e.g. via credit cards). I do use credit cards for their purchasing convenience, but I always pay off their balances in full at each billing cycle. I pay cash for my automobiles. I did take out a 30-year mortgage on my home some 10 years ago, but I've been making supplemental payments since then and in a couple of years that debt will be paid in full.

My university and med school training took place in the 1970's and 1980's. I paid for most of it by working and via scholarship grants. The rest I paid for with student loans, which I assumed because I knew that I could pay them off in short time after I began working as a physician. Tuition was a lot cheaper back in those days. Now it is quite a lot. It's really gotten to the point that a student could wind up with well over $500k debt from college and medical school tuition.
 
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