Is med student (relative) autonomy at the lowest ever?

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I could see that working if ms1-ms2 wasn't all based on basic sciences and more clinical medicine was learnt.
I mean, do you think that peole learn anything between MS3 and graduation that makes them safer to place orders? The question isn't whether an MS4 is ready, its whether he is more ready than an Intern.
 
But they also don’t know a lot about medicine that’s not at all mediated by not writing orders that nonetheless makes them dangerous prescribers.

A lot of the 3rd years I have supervised also take terrible histories. Some of them basically explain that their rationale for diagnosing depression is basically that the patient feels that they are depressed or something similarly stupid. They don’t actually know how to methodically elicit symptoms. Similarly, they don’t know how to methodically elicit a med history. This does get a lot better throughout 4th year.

A third year prescribing Nardil based on their terrible med rec and treatment history is very dangerous.
Sounds like something to tell the school faculty.
 
I mean, do you think that peole learn anything between MS3 and graduation that makes them safer to place orders? The question isn't whether an MS4 is ready, its whether he is more ready than an Intern.
I honestly think that we need to admit that there is a range. The best of the M3s probably outperforms the worst of the M4s...and the best of the M4s would probably outperform the worst of the interns if they were given similar expectations and permissions, though we hate to admit it. There are probably some M3s who are as ready to be submitting orders as the worst of the interns.

However, after M3 and M4, the goal is that even the original crappy M3s will have reached the level where they will not kill anyone when they begin intern year.

So it's not about whether some M3s could function well enough, it's about whether any M3s would, given more autonomy, cause irreparable damage.
 
I mean, do you think that peole learn anything between MS3 and graduation that makes them safer to place orders? The question isn't whether an MS4 is ready, its whether he is more ready than an Intern.
Good point. I'd argue an early ms4 actually knows more than an intern. Actually that should be obvious. You spend a lot of ms4 forgetting stuff. It would make a lot of sense to place orders, learn more, and save the hospital money too. It also makes intern year drastically easier.
 
Good point. I'd argue an early ms4 actually knows more than an intern. Actually that should be obvious. You spend a lot of ms4 forgetting stuff. It would make a lot of sense to place orders, learn more, and save the hospital money too. It also makes intern year drastically easier.

You honestly have no idea what you're talking about.
 
I honestly think that we need to admit that there is a range. The best of the M3s probably outperforms the worst of the M4s...and the best of the M4s would probably outperform the worst of the interns if they were given similar expectations and permissions, though we hate to admit it. There are probably some M3s who are as ready to be submitting orders as the worst of the interns.

However, after M3 and M4, the goal is that even the original crappy M3s will have reached the level where they will not kill anyone when they begin intern year.

So it's not about whether some M3s could function well enough, it's about whether any M3s would, given more autonomy, cause irreparable damage.
Again, placing orders is something that I think that only MS4s should do. I agree that the learning curve for MS3 is already steep enough, and most of them would sink rather than swim if you add anything more. I agree the point of MS3 is to teach students how take a history, develop an assessment and plan, and get even the marginal students to the point where they're safe to place orders

The point of MS4, right now is... well I don't think there is one. Its a tuition check in search of a purpose. For most students I see a drastic improvement between the beginning and end of MS3, and almost no improvement at all between the beginning and end of MS4. If we let MS4s place orders I think we would see actual improvement between MS4 and Intern year, and Interns in July would be much less dangerous.
 
and the best of the M4s would probably outperform the worst of the interns if they were given similar expectations and permissions, though we hate to admit it.
I would argue that the average MS4 performs at a level equal to an average Intern in July. The way our system is set up there currently isn't a lot of improvement for the average student between finishing core rotations and beginning Intern year.

Of course the average Intern in December is dramatically better than the average MS4.
 
I would argue that the average MS4 performs at a level equal to an average Intern in July. The way our system is set up there currently isn't a lot of improvement for the average student between finishing core rotations and beginning Intern year.

Of course the average Intern in December is dramatically better than the average MS4.
Too much logic and common sense. You should teach it to a couple of the residents on this thread.
 
Sounds like something to tell the school faculty.

To tell them what? Your incoming MS3s can’t safely and independently prescribe medications? I don’t think that’s news to anyone. Nobody should be expecting that.
 
I would argue that the average MS4 performs at a level equal to an average Intern in July. The way our system is set up there currently isn't a lot of improvement for the average student between finishing core rotations and beginning Intern year.

Of course the average Intern in December is dramatically better than the average MS4.
I'd agree with that. And I'd say that the competent end of the MS3 spectrum could perform similarly. Unfortunately, there does exist a spectrum, and so it's probably a good thing that we have MS3, with no order capability, to get people up to a basic minimum.
 
Again, placing orders is something that I think that only MS4s should do. I agree that the learning curve for MS3 is already steep enough, and most of them would sink rather than swim if you add anything more. I agree the point of MS3 is to teach students how take a history, develop an assessment and plan, and get even the marginal students to the point where they're safe to place orders

The point of MS4, right now is... well I don't think there is one. Its a tuition check in search of a purpose. For most students I see a drastic improvement between the beginning and end of MS3, and almost no improvement at all between the beginning and end of MS4. If we let MS4s place orders I think we would see actual improvement between MS4 and Intern year, and Interns in July would be much less dangerous.

MS4 is where most students get their exposure to emergency medicine, critical care, other hospital systems, and the specialty of their choice. It's certainly not optimized for dense learning, but it's not wasted time either.
 
MS4 is where most students get their exposure to emergency medicine, critical care, other hospital systems, and the specialty of their choice. It's certainly not optimized for dense learning, but it's not wasted time either.
Barely. Lot of them also cruise through and almost all forget everything in spring time.
 
Dude, you don't know half of what you think you know. This seems to apply globally, given your posts in this thread.
Those are midlevels.

I fully know that I don't know ****. That's the whole point of this thread! It's about implementing graduated learning.
 
This thread is confusing with med students complaining that residents and attendings are terrible for not giving them enough autonomy and making them shadow, and with residents/attendings complaining that med students are terrible for being too arrogant and claiming to know something that they don’t know.

I don’t think clinical years are that bad despite being portrayed so on SDN (because the people who have bad experiences have more time to post on SDN and vent, while people with average and good experiences are too swamped to have any time to post on SDN).

If anything, what I’m seeing is 3rd year should be the time to learn clinical medicine, learn how to work well with clinical team and learn key clinical skills. Students undoubtedly serve as extra work for the team but what I’m seeing is the team would be okay with it and help students with their education provided the students are bearable and fun to work with. Taking initiative plays a major role but it seems having good team dynamics and interpersonal skills also matter.
 
Don't you love when med students comment on what would make intern year harder or easier?
Gimme a break dude. You're what.. 1 year out of med school? And acting all high and mighty over med students as if you weren't one just a short while ago.
 
Gimme a break dude. You're what.. 1 year out of med school? And acting all high and mighty over med students as if you weren't one just a short while ago.

I was one a while ago, and now I'm not. Now I have actual clinical responsibilities. Shockingly, months of actual experience doing a particular job give you insight and understanding you don't get by just watching people do that job.
 
I was one a while ago, and now I'm not. Now I have actual clinical responsibilities. Shockingly, months of actual experience doing a particular job give you insight and understanding you don't get by just watching people do that job.
I believe it's the attending(s) who said it would prep people better for intern year. I simply repeat it.
And the point is, show some respect. Seriously. The lack of unity and respect within the field is astounding. It's why midlevels are absolutely demolishing doctors on a legislative level.
 
I believe it's the attending(s) who said it would prep people better for intern year. I simply repeat it.
And the point is, show some respect. Seriously. The lack of unity and respect within the field is astounding. It's why midlevels are absolutely demolishing doctors on a legislative level.

I respect students. What I don't respect is a med student telling residents that they're doing their job wrong because students slow things down. Fact is you don't know, and you need to learn to respect the statements of people who know things you don't.
 
I respect students. What I don't respect is a med student telling residents that they're doing their job wrong because students slow things down. Fact is you don't know, and you need to learn to respect the statements of people who know things you don't.
No one said you're doing your job wrong. This whole thread is about structured teaching.
 
I don’t disagree that students don’t slow the rest of their team down... but what exactly is the solution? At this point in MS3, I don’t feel like I’d be prepared to be an intern.
 
I didn't realize the Trump Rules had gone into effect on SDN.
They should be saving you time in specific settings depending on the tasks. Ex. outpatient office, a student can have the history taken and the note mostly done before the resident/attending comes in. Then all that's needed is a quick hit summary of the history and finalizing the assessment/plan. Maybe this has been my own experience but there's no reason that model shouldn't work anywhere.
 
I don’t disagree that students don’t slow the rest of their team down... but what exactly is the solution? At this point in MS3, I don’t feel like I’d be prepared to be an intern.

There's no "solution" to it because it's not a problem. Teaching is just part of my job, and that's fine. I'm happy to do it. What I'm saying is that I'm relieved when there are no students with us, much in the same way I'm relieved when there are only five patients on my census instead of 9.
 
There's no "solution" to it because it's not a problem. Teaching is just part of my job, and that's fine. I'm happy to do it. What I'm saying is that I'm relieved when there are no students with us, much in the same way I'm relieved when there are only five patients on my census instead of 9.

Not the impression I am getting from quite a few posts here. I already constantly feel like I am in the way.
 
Tangential but what can I do as a third year to make my rotation experience more fruitful? I'm either with residents who just have me shadow or I'm with ones that just send me to do H and Ps and present but never offer feedback/ teaching. I feel like I keep getting stuck with one or the other. I don't want to suck come day 1 of residency so any tips or advice from someone on the other end of the relationship?

Ask for feedback. A lot of the time I'm trying to teach or give feedback, the student doesn't seem to care at all. I get that sometimes they're swamped and pretty over it, and that's fine. It's just hard for me to tell which ones actially want feedback and which don't.

So ask specific questions. And ask follow up questions. "I wrote this hospital course, but I wasn't really sure what to include. Could you help me out? Why did we use lasix on this guy even though his creatinine is going up? How do I know when to call cardiology?"

And please don't ask questions just to "seem interested."
 
I feel the same. When I ask for feedback or ask questions I am often responded to in a way that makes me feel like they are annoyed or that I'm just in the way. I'm a timid person in general so it just makes me crawl back into my shell 🙁

Thank you! I do ask often. Sadly, I have yet to get any type of construction feedback. It is always, "you are doing great." or something completely benign like that. Maybe my questions are too general-- I'll try to be more specific. I'm a very introverted person so I'm working on being more outgoing/ vocal, especially regarding this. 🙂

Basically the same. Im always “doing great” but obviously my evals arent always perfect but nobody wants to tell me how to improve either.

I just make it a point to set aside an actual time to speak with my attending regarding feedback. It seems to work
 
For all of my core M3 rotations, I was allowed to put orders in. These orders had to be cosigned by a physician (resident or attending). To me, this seems like a reasonable setup, though, to be honest, the real learning of M3 was more centered on the medical decision-making (e.g. what drugs/procedures are indicated and why) than on how to enter stuff in an EMR that in all likelihood will be different than the one you end up using as a resident.

Medical student notes should absolutely be billable with an attestation in the same way that resident notes are. Now that CMS has relented, maybe medical students will get the benefit of more scrutiny on their notes, since they will actually count.

I think medical students' roles are necessarily most constrained in the surgical specialties. The residents' learning takes priority, and you likely will not get to do much more than hold a camera and close a laparoscopy port or two. In Ob/Gyn you will probably be stuck manipulating the uterus. It's not a big deal unless you want to go into one of those fields, but I think most residents are willing to teach more and let you do more if you express a sincere interest.

Another factor that limits medical student autonomy in clerkships is that you often jump between teams every couple weeks, which means you get to start the cycle of graduated responsibility all over again. When you go on away rotations, you get to do the same thing at a new institution. It's not a big deal, anecdotally, because interns aren't expected to come in with much beyond very basic surgical skills (suturing, knot-tying, etc.).

The big thing I would be concerned with is resident autonomy. How much input do residents get on management plans? For surgical specialties, are they watching the critical portion, or is the attending walking them through the case?

M3 is a brief introduction to various specialties in medicine designed to make you familiar enough with each of them that you're not completely lost when you have a mutual patient. M4 would ideally be a transition-to-intern year, but that often doesn't happen because of the time lost to interviews, etc.

TL; DR: don't worry too much about not being able to put orders in - learn how your patients are managed and why is much more valuable than being able to navigate an EMR or feeling like you're helping.
 
Medical student notes should absolutely be billable with an attestation in the same way that resident notes are. Now that CMS has relented, maybe medical students will get the benefit of more scrutiny on their notes, since they will actually count

Speaking as a resident: I’m not sure that our notes get much scrutiny, even though they “count.”

Another factor that limits medical student autonomy in clerkships is that you often jump between teams every couple weeks, which means you get to start the cycle of graduated responsibility all over again

Actually, the main thing limiting medical student autonomy is knowledge.

I simply do not understand why medical students feel entitled to autonomy. On what basis can a medical student claim they’ve earned autonomy? At least if you’re a resident, you’ve graduated from a (hopefully) LCME-accredited med school and passed up to step 2 of the USMLE which is supposedly what is necessary for supervised practice.
 
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Speaking as a resident: I’m not sure that our notes get much scrutiny, even though they “count.”
Actually, the main thing limiting medical student autonomy is knowledge.

I simply do not understand why medical students feel entitled to autonomy. On what basis can a medical student claim they’ve earned autonomy? At least if you’re a resident, you’ve graduated from a (hopefully) LCME-accredited med school and passed up to step 2 of the USMLE which is supposedly what is necessary for supervised practice.
Based upon some of the posts in this thread, and others in the past, the mindset seems to be simply that they went through two years of pre-clinical education and took Boards. For a number of SDNers, life seems to begin at matriculation and end with Step I.
 
Speaking as a resident: I’m not sure that our notes get much scrutiny, even though they “count.”



Actually, the main thing limiting medical student autonomy is knowledge.

I simply do not understand why medical students feel entitled to autonomy. On what basis can a medical student claim they’ve earned autonomy? At least if you’re a resident, you’ve graduated from a (hopefully) LCME-accredited med school and passed up to step 2 of the USMLE which is supposedly what is necessary for supervised practice.
Autonomy in this context still means with full supervision. Many of us have done step 2, scored very high and have the material fresher in our minds in 4th year compared to a summer intern who hasn't seen a patient in 6 months. And yes I know the priority is the intern, since that's their actual job training.

Do you ask yourself why midlevels are allowed independent unsupervised practice? They would get smoked out of the test center if they even attempted 1 block of usmle questions. And don't even have a tiny fraction of med school clinical training (excluding basic sciences).
Yet the outrage over that isn't anywhere close to the outrage of a ms4 being allowed to contribute. Hmm funny.
 
Autonomy in this context still means with full supervision. Many of us have done step 2, scored very high and have the material fresher in our minds in 4th year compared to a summer intern who hasn't seen a patient in 6 months. And yes I know the priority is the intern, since that's their actual job training.

Do you ask yourself why midlevels are allowed independent unsupervised practice? They would get smoked out of the test center if they even attempted 1 block of usmle questions. And don't even have a tiny fraction of med school clinical training (excluding basic sciences).
Yet the outrage over that isn't anywhere close to the outrage of a ms4 being allowed to contribute. Hmm funny.

The outrage isn't about MS4s being allowed to contribute.
 
The outrage isn't about MS4s being allowed to contribute.
Meaningful contribution and actual responsibility requires some autonomy. Clinical knowledge/skills aren't some mystical thing that a student can't learn before intern year.

And I've only had one or two shadowing rotations... if even that. Didn't realize it's the norm for many and that's mostly what I'm arguing against at this point.
 
Autonomy in this context still means with full supervision. Many of us have done step 2, scored very high and have the material fresher in our minds in 4th year compared to a summer intern who hasn't seen a patient in 6 months. And yes I know the priority is the intern, since that's their actual job training.

Do you ask yourself why midlevels are allowed independent unsupervised practice? They would get kicked out of the test center if they even attempted 1 block of usmle questions. And don't even have a tiny fraction of med school clinical training (excluding basic sciences).
Yet the outrage over that isn't anywhere close to the outrage of a ms4 being allowed to contribute. Hmm funny.

Dude stop bringing up midlevels. This has nothing to do with midlevels. You are not a midlevel. Jesus.


Yes, midlevels have a smaller fund of knowledge than you. Great. Move on.
 
Autonomy in this context still means with full supervision. Many of us have done step 2, scored very high and have the material fresher in our minds in 4th year compared to a summer intern who hasn't seen a patient in 6 months. And yes I know the priority is the intern, since that's their actual job training.

Do you ask yourself why midlevels are allowed independent unsupervised practice? They would get smoked out of the test center if they even attempted 1 block of usmle questions. And don't even have a tiny fraction of med school clinical training (excluding basic sciences).
Yet the outrage over that isn't anywhere close to the outrage of a ms4 being allowed to contribute. Hmm funny.

First of all, I think that plenty of people on this site think that unsupervised practice of midlevel providers is a bad idea. Also, technically they don't generally practice unsupervised. NPs, for instance, generally have to have some sort of supervision by an MD. A lot of the time, these are unscrupulous arrangements where a doctor charges a fee for supervision and the oversight/educational quality of the supervision is of variable quality. Look around on this site and you'll find a lot of people discussing the topic of NP supervision.

Additionally, there's a few things wrong with the argument that a fourth year has stuff fresher in their mind than a new intern. First, this argument rests on the idea that the main thing that makes a person a good provider is knowledge of guidelines and such things. This stuff is important but there are a lot of things that a new intern will know far better than a new fourth year, such as how to coordinate care between various types of hospital workers, types of community resources, etc. To be honest, being a functional intern relies a lot more on knowing the types of solutions to practical problems that exist in order to effectively problem-solve when a particular problem arises. Most of this you simply learn by seeing patients and it's not a matter of being "fresher" necessarily. To be honest, as an intern, you're also going to make mistakes and this is fine only if you can generally figure out how to fix them. Most of these problems are actually not going to be strictly medically related either.

Also, I do think that there's a sense of ownership over patients that grows in 4th year as you are expected to take a more important role in the care of select group of patients (versus 3rd year where your goal is more to learn as much as you can about the specialty you're rotating in from patients more than it is to actually provide care to them). I mean, in many third year rotations I would be encouraged to "drop" patients when they just became dispo problems and were more or less outpatient level cases residing in the hospital. While this is appropriate for 3rd year, I think it carves out a major potential for growth in 4th year. This is kind of a humbling experience but is important to functioning as a provider. Recently, I had an extremely busy day and forgot to order discharge meds for a patient in time for them to be delivered by the pharmacy runner so that they'd be on the floor for an early morning discharge to a facility. This was entirely my fault and I didn't want it to affect his discharge plan, so I ordered the meds, went down to the pharmacy, paid the (modest) copay out of my own pocket and delivered them to the unit myself. I don't even know that I'd have thought to do this as a third year or early fourth year. As an intern, I did something similar several times where I would pay copays and deliver meds to the floor on the weekends when there were restrictive pharmacy hours and I had an unanticipated discharge. This is just an example but I don't think that as a new fourth year you've been taught the degree to which these things are actually your problems and the extent that you should go to fix them.
 
Dude stop bringing up midlevels. This has nothing to do with midlevels. You are not a midlevel. Jesus.


Yes, midlevels have a smaller fund of knowledge than you. Great. Move on.
It's about having a reference point. There's definitely outrage over even the idea of any med student coming up with a general plan. But a midlevel doing the exact same thing? No biggie.
First of all, I think that plenty of people on this site think that unsupervised practice of midlevel providers is a bad idea. Also, technically they don't generally practice unsupervised. NPs, for instance, generally have to have some sort of supervision by an MD. A lot of the time, these are unscrupulous arrangements where a doctor charges a fee for supervision and the oversight/educational quality of the supervision is of variable quality. Look around on this site and you'll find a lot of people discussing the topic of NP supervision.

Additionally, there's a few things wrong with the argument that a fourth year has stuff fresher in their mind than a new intern. First, this argument rests on the idea that the main thing that makes a person a good provider is knowledge of guidelines and such things. This stuff is important but there are a lot of things that a new intern will know far better than a new fourth year, such as how to coordinate care between various types of hospital workers, types of community resources, etc. To be honest, being a functional intern relies a lot more on knowing the types of solutions to practical problems that exist in order to effectively problem-solve when a particular problem arises. Most of this you simply learn by seeing patients and it's not a matter of being "fresher" necessarily. To be honest, as an intern, you're also going to make mistakes and this is fine only if you can generally figure out how to fix them. Most of these problems are actually not going to be strictly medically related either.

Also, I do think that there's a sense of ownership over patients that grows in 4th year as you are expected to take a more important role in the care of select group of patients (versus 3rd year where your goal is more to learn as much as you can about the specialty you're rotating in from patients more than it is to actually provide care to them). I mean, in many third year rotations I would be encouraged to "drop" patients when they just became dispo problems and were more or less outpatient level cases residing in the hospital. While this is appropriate for 3rd year, I think it carves out a major potential for growth in 4th year. This is kind of a humbling experience but is important to functioning as a provider. Recently, I had an extremely busy day and forgot to order discharge meds for a patient in time for them to be delivered by the pharmacy runner so that they'd be on the floor for an early morning discharge to a facility. This was entirely my fault and I didn't want it to affect his discharge plan, so I ordered the meds, went down to the pharmacy, paid the (modest) copay out of my own pocket and delivered them to the unit myself. I don't even know that I'd have thought to do this as a third year or early fourth year. As an intern, I did something similar several times where I would pay copays and deliver meds to the floor on the weekends when there were restrictive pharmacy hours and I had an unanticipated discharge. This is just an example but I don't think that as a new fourth year you've been taught the degree to which these things are actually your problems and the extent that you should go to fix them.
I don't disagree, but this all assumes people did a meaningful 4th year. There are loads of threads where 4th years post saying they forgot even basic management guidelines over the winter-spring.
I think from an educational standpoint, the goal should be contributing towards the medicine aspect of things. Of course the intern is drastically more effective with the logistics, that's entirely different.

And remember NPs have independent rights in.. most states now? So they do not need any supervision. Not only is their medical knowledge drastically below an ms4 upon graduation, but their knowledge of available resources and everything you mentioned is also very low. This leads to lots of bogus referrals among other things.
 
It's about having a reference point. There's definitely outrage over even the idea of any med student coming up with a general plan. But a midlevel doing the exact same thing? No biggie.

I don't disagree, but this all assumes people did a meaningful 4th year. There are loads of threads where 4th years post saying they forgot even basic management guidelines over the winter-spring.
I think from an educational standpoint, the goal should be contributing towards the medicine aspect of things. Of course the intern is drastically more effective with the logistics, that's entirely different.

And remember NPs have independent rights in.. most states now? So they do not need any supervision. Not only is their medical knowledge drastically below an ms4 upon graduation, but their knowledge of available resources and everything you mentioned is also very low. This leads to lots of bogus referrals among other things.

It's impossible to separate logistics from medicine.

Also, NPs have independent practice in about half of states, but almost all of the most populous states have reduced or restricted practice. I'm also not sure that an NP who has been working has medical knowledge below that of an MS4. The quality of NPs can be highly variable, but good ones have been comparable to attendings. But anyway, this is getting kind of outside of the scope of this discussion.
 
It's impossible to separate logistics from medicine.

Also, NPs have independent practice in about half of states, but almost all of the most populous states have reduced or restricted practice. I'm also not sure that an NP who has been working has medical knowledge below that of an MS4. The quality of NPs can be highly variable, but good ones have been comparable to attendings. But anyway, this is getting kind of outside of the scope of this discussion.
It's not outside of the scope of discussion because it's still about people below the level of an attending practicing medicine.
And you mean an experienced NP and only their limited scope of practice? Sure. But the ms4 should still have greater breadth of knowledge, just lacking in the depth aspect given their lack of exp. And not every NP is a top notch experienced one, most in fact are not. And nothing's stopping them from practicing independently in those states - which btw are rapidly growing in numbers.

The point is, if you don't passionately oppose midlevels' independent rights/practicing without major supervision - you cannot oppose relative autonomy for med students.
 
I also think that training keeps being diluted and things are constantly pushed back. I think attendings should be able to step back and allow trainees to do more. Yes I understand that the patient deserves great care but if we are providing attending only care then when will trainees get to learn? There won't be any new attendings to replace the ones that retire. There's no reason why a student can't do a central line or an appy that is taught to a resident. A substantial number of people are doing fellowships in an attempt to supplement the lack of training that their fellowship provided and then they steal learning opportunities from students and residents. Our graduates are less and less prepared for practice every year due to a variety of factors.
 
I also think that training keeps being diluted and things are constantly pushed back. I think attendings should be able to step back and allow trainees to do more. Yes I understand that the patient deserves great care but if we are providing attending only care then when will trainees get to learn? There won't be any new attendings to replace the ones that retire. There's no reason why a student can't do a central line or an appy that is taught to a resident. A substantial number of people are doing fellowships in an attempt to supplement the lack of training that their fellowship provided and then they steal learning opportunities from students and residents. Our graduates are less and less prepared for practice every year due to a variety of factors.
This is a big issue and I fully agree.
There are lots of easy patient-procedures that are done by seniors who have optimal numbers already. If a resident has their numbers and is going into a fellowship/practice where they will not perform X, then that should be given up to an intern or student who is likely to perform it later in the future. I find this does happen in some places but the chain stops at intern. So the ms3 or ms4 doesn't get their hands dirty even if their future goals would benefit from it whereas the residents' goals does not.

And definitely agree with attendings letting residents do more. Especially in settings where it's borderline silly the attending is doing something (ex. suturing in the ED, yes seen it).
 
so far, family medicine was the only rotation where i wasn't just shadowing. GS and OBGYN though.....
 
It's about having a reference point. There's definitely outrage over even the idea of any med student coming up with a general plan. But a midlevel doing the exact same thing? No biggie.

Where on earth are you training where this is a thing?

Where I went to school, and at the institution where I'm doing residency, medical students were expected to come up with a plan and defend it. What you're saying sounds like nonsense.
 
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