Is Nephrology a competitive specialty?

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PA_dud3

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Hello,

I know I have a long way to go before even coming close to deciding on a specialty, but just out of curiosity, how hard would it be to get a Nephrology fellowship after an IM residency? Would it be any more difficult becoming a Nephrologist if one goes the DO route? Would it be possible to do rotations with a nephrologist while in med school? I have heard there are less and less nephrologists coming into practice, but I am not sure if this is true. The kidneys and their disease states really interest me. I also like working with the elderly, which makes up a good portion of Renal Failure patients. Sorry for the odd question, but thanks for any help you can provide.

-Dd3
 
When I see “nephrology” and “fellowship” mentioned.

house-press-conference-los-angeles-390x285.jpg
 
No at all lol but you don’t/didn’t watch House? Greatest medical show ever made. He’s a nephrologist/infectious disease doc and leads a bunch of fellows.
Oh! I see, lol. No I haven't really watched House, currently watching MASH again and the Good Doctor, but I will definitely add that to my list! I honestly didnt even know he was a Nephrologist, lol. Thanks for the recommendation!
 
Nephrology may be the exact opposite of a competitive specialty. Look up job satisfaction for different specialties. I believe nephro is the lowest, but I could be wrong. Kidneys are interesting for sure, but it sounds like a lot of nephrologists are being treated as workhorses by big dialysis providers. There was a thread about this a while ago.
 
Not competitive. Kidneys may be interesting, but 99% of what they do is manage patients on dialysis.
 
There are some down sides of nephrology, though the kidney is a pretty cool organ. Kidney diseases tend to only get worse. Not a lot of kidney diseases are reversible. Prednisone can halt progression of some auto-immune type renal pathologies, but mostly it is a waiting game of watching nature take its course. And ER docs call when you are on call to tell you that your patient who skipped dialysis for a week just showed up or someone just arrived from xyz part of the world, and by the way, their dialysis was due 5 days ago, and no they do not have any paperwork about how their dialysis is usually done.

The renal docs always tended to be within the smarter group of IM docs.Phenotype generally also involves patience of a saint. "Oh, I do tell Mr. Smith not to skip dialysis, but he has so many diverse interests that I can see how he can easily forget to go to his appointment. I am very excited he decided to come to the emergency department. I will arrange for dialysis immediately. Just don't kill him in the meantime, please."

As a DO, might be harder to go to the top academic fellowships, esp major transplant centers, but there should be good opportunities at many mid-tier fellowships.

Oh and at many hospitals, the renal folks manage all of the transplant folks after the immediate post-op period, which is definitely a cool subspecialty within renal.
 
Not to hijack, is cardiology considered a competitive fellowship from an IM residency as a DO??
Yes. I am just a premed but a cardiologist told me just last week it’s one of the most competitive post IM specialties. Not sure how DO vs MD would change things. Probably not impossible for DO to match but having the MD would help.
 
Yes. I am just a premed but a cardiologist told me just last week it’s one of the most competitive post IM specialties. Not sure how DO vs MD would change things. Probably not impossible for DO to match but having the MD would help.

Ah OK. Makes sense. I’m a premed too. I’ve shadowed a DO Cardiologist but didn’t ask him about if DO or MD would make a difference Bc I didn’t want to sound rude
 
There are some down sides of nephrology, though the kidney is a pretty cool organ. Kidney diseases tend to only get worse. Not a lot of kidney diseases are reversible. Prednisone can halt progression of some auto-immune type renal pathologies, but mostly it is a waiting game of watching nature take its course. And ER docs call when you are on call to tell you that your patient who skipped dialysis for a week just showed up or someone just arrived from xyz part of the world, and by the way, their dialysis was due 5 days ago, and no they do not have any paperwork about how their dialysis is usually done.

The renal docs always tended to be within the smarter group of IM docs.Phenotype generally also involves patience of a saint. "Oh, I do tell Mr. Smith not to skip dialysis, but he has so many diverse interests that I can see how he can easily forget to go to his appointment. I am very excited he decided to come to the emergency department. I will arrange for dialysis immediately. Just don't kill him in the meantime, please."

As a DO, might be harder to go to the top academic fellowships, esp major transplant centers, but there should be good opportunities at many mid-tier fellowships.

Oh and at many hospitals, the renal folks manage all of the transplant folks after the immediate post-op period, which is definitely a cool subspecialty within renal.
My friend who is a nephrologist says that he thinks I will be a good physician and a good nephrologist. I just hope I can prove him right eventually. 🙂

I have done several hours shadowing with him so far and a couple observations at the Hemodialysis center, in addition to PD. I just find it all very interesting, and I would really like to help people who feel like their situation is hopeless because of their CKD to live as good of a life as they can. Thats further on down the road, however.
 
Not to hijack, is cardiology considered a competitive fellowship from an IM residency as a DO??

Cards and GI are definitely the most competitive. DO’s are at a disadvantage since some of the powerhouse academic residency programs don’t take DOs at all. It is a lot easier to match cards from Mass Gen than a tiny community IM program.
 
Cards and GI are definitely the most competitive. DO’s are at a disadvantage since some of the powerhouse academic residency programs don’t take DOs at all. It is a lot easier to match cards from Mass Gen than a tiny community IM program.

Surgery too I assume? DOs would be at a disadvantage?
 
Surgery too I assume? DOs would be at a disadvantage?

Yes. It is harder to break into surgery as a DO. General surgery is definitely doable, but subspecialties like ortho are notoriously hard no matter who you are.
 
Yes. It is harder to break into surgery as a DO. General surgery is definitely doable, but subspecialties like ortho are notoriously hard no matter who you are.

Which one would be the easiest for DO? I know surgery ones are hard no matter what. But which ones would DOs NOT be at a disadvantage for? Prob a General right? Sorry. Not too familiar but I tried looking it up and didn’t find it
 
Which one would be the easiest for DO? I know surgery ones are hard no matter what. But which ones would DOs NOT be at a disadvantage for? Prob a General right? Sorry. Not too familiar but I tried looking it up and didn’t find it

No, very difficult for DOs to get general surgery.
 
No, very difficult for DOs to get general surgery.

Not very. It’s doable if you put together a good application.
They just in general have to be more competitive than the average MD general surgery applicant.
 
Not very. It’s doable if you put together a good application.
They just in general have to be more competitive than the average MD general surgery applicant.

Uphill battle then?
 
Cards and GI are definitely the most competitive. DO’s are at a disadvantage since some of the powerhouse academic residency programs don’t take DOs at all. It is a lot easier to match cards from Mass Gen than a tiny community IM program.
How does hem/onc fit in here?
 
No at all lol but you don’t/didn’t watch House? Greatest medical show ever made. He’s a nephrologist/infectious disease doc and leads a bunch of fellows.
It’s been awhile since I watched house but wasn’t House a “neurologist”??
(I put it in quotations because what House does is not reflective of any sort of practice for any physician in any specialty)
 
Pretty much every doctor does "diagnostic medicine."

 
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Cards and GI are definitely the most competitive. DO’s are at a disadvantage since some of the powerhouse academic residency programs don’t take DOs at all. It is a lot easier to match cards from Mass Gen than a tiny community IM program.
How competitive exactly, like surgical subspecialty/derm level? I know fellowship is a bit different
 
No at all lol but you don’t/didn’t watch House? Greatest medical show ever made. He’s a nephrologist/infectious disease doc and leads a bunch of fellows.

Ahh, clearly you haven’t seen Scrubs. Otherwise you wouldn’t have said something so blasphemous.

(I do like House though)
 
Ahh, clearly you haven’t seen Scrubs. Otherwise you wouldn’t have said something so blasphemous.

(I do like House though)

JD is too much of a girly girl for me.
 
Ahh, clearly you haven’t seen Scrubs. Otherwise you wouldn’t have said something so blasphemous.

(I do like House though)
I’ve nevee understood the appeal of scrubs. Yeah sure it’s fairly accurate...but its just not funny
 
Specialities dealing with terminal patients that will have a condition till they die tend not to be competitive (nephrology, palliative care, etc).

Oncology is an exception, I think because it strikes personal with a lot of people.
 
Specialities dealing with terminal patients that will have a condition till they die tend not to be competitive (nephrology, palliative care, etc).

Oncology is an exception, I think because it strikes personal with a lot of people.

I think this may be more because oncology has such a large research component to it, at least in the academic centers, as well as more variability in treatment decisions vs. nephrology and palliative care.
 
Not all people that have cancer are terminal.
 
Not all people that have cancer are terminal.
very true. a large proportion of people with cancer are cured of their disease. that's why it makes me laugh when people out there say things like "they have discovered a cure for cancer but the government is covering it up it so big pharma can profit"
 
Not to hijack, is cardiology considered a competitive fellowship from an IM residency as a DO??

Cardiology is competitive. As a DO it is even more so.

Is it impossible as a DO? Definitely not but if you really want it, try to go MD
 
How competitive exactly, like surgical subspecialty/derm level? I know fellowship is a bit different

Hard to say since there is a lot of self selection and it is a fellowship. I wouldn't say cards is as competitive as Derm. There is also a lot of differences between programs... The guys at Columbia probably all would have matched derm if they wanted. Those at random community program in Nebraska... Probably not so much
 
Hello,

I know I have a long way to go before even coming close to deciding on a specialty, but just out of curiosity, how hard would it be to get a Nephrology fellowship after an IM residency? Would it be any more difficult becoming a Nephrologist if one goes the DO route? Would it be possible to do rotations with a nephrologist while in med school? I have heard there are less and less nephrologists coming into practice, but I am not sure if this is true. The kidneys and their disease states really interest me. I also like working with the elderly, which makes up a good portion of Renal Failure patients. Sorry for the odd question, but thanks for any help you can provide.

-Dd3

Nephrology is close to if not the least competitive IM fellowship.

The big problem with nephrology right now is the job market. The median nephrologist makes good money - about $330k. That's certainly more than a ton of other fields like Endocrine, Rheum, ID - but finding that job as a new graduate is getting harder and harder. The majority of money made in the field of nephrology is dialysis. Reimbursements have gone down over time. Lots of dialysis centers have consolidated over the years and most of their medical directors aren't retiring. The # of people on dialysis is fairly stagnant - they just don't live that long. Transplant nephrology lowers your salary if anything.

What this means is that competition to actually join a successful nephrology group is fierce - and that most of the time new employees get a really raw deal. Like, rounding at a half dozen hospitals working yourself to the bone for years before you can become a partner raw. And that's for those people that actually manage to get a nephrology job - there's more fellows than there are open positions, so a surprising number of people do a nephro fellowship and then end up working as hospitalists.

I don't know an exact # for expected salary for these fresh nephrology grads, but I've heard numbers as low as $180k. It could be even worse than that - that's an anecdotal number from one or two folks I've talked to over the years, and it isn't my field. You certainly aren't going to be getting those $300k+ jobs that the old guys have, not for a while.

This situation has lead there to be a LOT fewer applicants than there are nephrology fellowships. Last years data had 304 total applicants (91 US grads) for 474 fellowship slots. That's right - even with a 100% match rate for the applicants, 30% of slots don't fill. All it takes these days to match nephrology is an IM residency, a pulse, and no blatant red flags (like, multiple DUI level red flags). None of the other core fellowships are anywhere near as uncompetitive than nephrology except geriatrics, and I still don't quite understand how geriatrics fellowships are even a thing when that's like, 80% of internal medicine by default.

You can take a look at charting outcomes - https://mk0nrmpcikgb8jxyd19h.kinstacdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/2018-Charting-Outcomes-SMS.pdf for a lot of granulated data. I suppose the match rate was higher for MDs than DOs - but only because the US MD match rate was 100%, and the osteopathic match rate was 94% due to 2 of the 35 applicants not matching.

Obviously, how you do in medical school, your board scores, your residency program, letters, research projects, etc will make you more competitive for Nephrology... but really, unless it changes between now and when you apply, just have a pulse and not too long of a criminal record and you'll almost certainly match.
 
Cardiology is competitive. As a DO it is even more so.

Is it impossible as a DO? Definitely not but if you really want it, try to go MD

I figured Cardiology would be DO friendly bc its just an IM residency (which is easy as a DO) and then a cardiology fellowship... I'm just a premed tho so don't know too much
 
Yes. It is harder to break into surgery as a DO. General surgery is definitely doable, but subspecialties like ortho are notoriously hard no matter who you are.
IF you are a DO with superb, once-in-a-generation qualifications like, say, a former full tenured professor at Yale, or a MacArthur Genius Grant, or a first-author Nature paper or two, are there any specialties that you won't be able to match into? Assume our hypothetical hero has 99th-percentile test scores.
 
IF you are a DO with superb, once-in-a-generation qualifications like, say, a former full tenured professor at Yale, or a MacArthur Genius Grant, or a first-author Nature paper or two, are there any specialties that you won't be able to match into? Assume our hypothetical hero has 99th-percentile test scores.

ECs matter so much less. Quit being hyperfocused on it. Research pubs help a LOT in the residency hunt, though. Even so, some programs don’t consider DOs, at all. If you have the board scores and an overall good app, gen surg is very doable as a DO. It matters a lot who you know though. Connections are huge at this stage of the game.
 
IF you are a DO with superb, once-in-a-generation qualifications like, say, a former full tenured professor at Yale, or a MacArthur Genius Grant, or a first-author Nature paper or two, are there any specialties that you won't be able to match into? Assume our hypothetical hero has 99th-percentile test scores.

Out Of curiosity, why would our hypothetical MacArthur Genius Grant recipient not have gotten into an MD school?

That guy would probably be able to match well. Not as well as if her were an MD though
 
I figured Cardiology would be DO friendly bc its just an IM residency (which is easy as a DO) and then a cardiology fellowship... I'm just a premed tho so don't know too much

These things kind of build on each other. Let me explain.

1. Cardiology is competitive so in order to get into cardiology you have to go to a strong academic residency IM program with a track record of sending people to competitive fellowships.
2. In order to get into a strong academic residency program, you're going to have to be an MD grad or an amazing DO candidate. Considering that most of these high level programs likely won't take DOs anyway then that already limits your choice to community IM programs.

So, while it's not impossible for a DO applicant to match into a cardiology fellowship, it's definitely significantly harder than the typical MD applicant.
 
Out Of curiosity, why would our hypothetical MacArthur Genius Grant recipient not have gotten into an MD school?

That guy would probably be able to match well. Not as well as if her were an MD though
Let's say the MacArthur Genius Grant winner was a bit immature when they were young, and had a 2.5 GPA when in undergrad. They managed to do very well in a DIY postbacc, but they only managed to get the GPA up to 3.0. That, plus a stellar MCAT, was only enough to get them into a DO school.
 
Let's say the MacArthur Genius Grant winner was a bit immature when they were young, and had a 2.5 GPA when in undergrad. They managed to do very well in a DIY postbacc, but they only managed to get the GPA up to 3.0. That, plus a stellar MCAT, was only enough to get them into a DO school.

Why is this even a scenario...
 
Pure curiosity: "can extraordinary, once-in-a-generation ECs make a DO competitive for highly competitive residencies?"
 
I think this thread has drifted fairly far in the off-topic direction. I will be closing it now.
 
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