Is obamacare really bad for doctors?

[Daynnight]

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A lot of doctors (not all of them though) say that the bill will hurt doctors. I understand the bill on the whole, but I haven't gotten a good grasp, non-partisanly, for what it will mean for us in the future.

 

[deleted127837]

A lot of doctors (not all of them though) say that the bill will hurt doctors. I understand the bill on the whole, but I haven't gotten a good grasp, non-partisanly, for what it will mean for us in the future.

Depends on how much money you think you should make as a physician.

 

[TipToad]

It means that you will still be a doctor.

 

[dsk89]

I'm not entirely sure either, but I feel doctors might have to work more for the same or less compensation due to the influx of newly insured into the patient pool

 

[Daynnight]

Doesn't a greater patient pool mean a greater demand for services and more overall compensation? I don't understand what about the bill will make doctor pay go down

 

[NickNaylor]

Doesn't a greater patient pool mean a greater demand for services and more overall compensation? I don't understand what about the bill will make doctor pay go down

Primary care physicians will likely benefit due to more insured patients and a focus on preventative care. Specialists will likely take a hit due to different reimbursement schemes for care.

It's not as simple as "more patients = more money."

(sent from my phone)

 

[Narmerguy]

This question has been asked many many times. Please, please, please, please use the search function. Literally one of the worst times that you could start another thread on this topic. Here's a primer:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=927565

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=958967

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=947554

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=937482

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=937419

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=889197

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=843419

As far as what it'll mean for doctors, it's not clear. Very smart people who dedicate their lives studying this kind of stuff disagree. So regardless of what you hear from a bunch of scientists, it's a complicated issue that has been beaten to death.

 

[KnuxNole]

I don't think so. I would stand by Obamacare 🙂

 

[dsk89]

This question has been asked many many times. Please, please, please, please use the search function. Literally one of the worst times that you could start another thread on this topic. Here's a primer:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=927565

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=958967

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=947554

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=937482

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=937419

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=889197

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=843419

As far as what it'll mean for doctors, it's not clear. Very smart people who dedicate their lives studying this kind of stuff disagree. So regardless of what you hear from a bunch of scientists, it's a complicated issue that has been beaten to death.

Your avatar makes me feel like there are ants crawling all over me lol

 

[xroc]

I don't think so. I would stand by Obamacare 🙂

I'll take the future pay cut knowing that more people will have access to care. But that's just my opinion ...

 

[Geebeejay]

I'll take the future pay cut knowing that more people will have access to care. But that's just my opinion ...

Easier to look ahead to the future and see less money than to see money that you already are receiving being taken way.

 

[ComfortCreature]

Easier to look ahead to the future and see less money than to see money that you already are receiving being taken way.

ie- everybody hates it when you move their cheese

 

[dsoz]

ie- everybody hates it when you move their cheese

The management at my current job made all of us read that book. (Who moved my cheese?)

The big take-away message I got from reading that book was that there was going to be BIG changes, and a lot of people were going to be unhappy. Sadly, most other people that I work with did not see it that way... until the changes started happening. Ha ha.

Now I am leaving that career for a career that is going to change just as much.

dsoz

 

[cheesier]

Primary care physicians will probably make more, specialists will probably make less, more people will have access to health insurance. If we need primary care doctors (which we do), and current doctors aren't happy with midlevels filling in the current gap (which they're not), then incentivizing primary care makes sense to me. Sure it would be nice if some specialties continued to make $400K, but there is a finite amount of money to pay doctors in reimbursements (unless you want to hurt Medicare in the long run so that specialists can make more in the short term), and what Obamacare does seems like the fairest way to get PCPs that we need.

However, nobody knows for sure what will happen. At the end of the day, doctors will still make enough to live comfortably, and PCPs might have it even better, plus people who can't get insurance right now will be able to. The great part is, if you are not in medical school and for some reason you hate Obamacare even though you, just like everyone else, has no clear idea on what it will do to reimbursements, you don't have to become a doctor.

 

[Dires]

I'll take the future pay cut knowing that more people will have access to care. But that's just my opinion ...

This likely isn't the only salary cut doctors will take. After you finish ten years of school and are a quarter million in debt with no savings, come back here and tell us you are okay making 100-150k.

It's an absolute myth that people weren't recieving care before the ACA, they just weren't guarenteed an annual check up.

 

[cheesier]

This likely isn't the only salary cut doctors will take. After you finish ten years of school and are a quarter million in debt with no savings, come back here and tell us you are okay making 100-150k.

It's an absolute myth that people weren't recieving care before the ACA, they just weren't guarenteed an annual check up.

See, this is the kind of unfounded speculation that helps nobody. Right now plenty of primary care doctors make around 150K, and they're looking at a pay increase under Obamacare.

Kids need checkups. People with chronic conditions need regular care. Annual checkups are essential for a lot of people, and with Obamacare they'll be able to get them instead of going into an ER and getting care that is 20 times as costly and that could have been avoided had they gotten preventive care.

 

[Dires]

Primary care physicians will probably make more, specialists will probably make less, more people will have access to health insurance. If we need primary care doctors (which we do), and current doctors aren't happy with midlevels filling in the current gap (which they're not), then incentivizing primary care makes sense to me. Sure it would be nice if some specialties continued to make $400K, but there is a finite amount of money to pay doctors in reimbursements (unless you want to hurt Medicare in the long run so that specialists can make more in the short term), and what Obamacare does seems like the fairest way to get PCPs that we need.

However, nobody knows for sure what will happen. At the end of the day, doctors will still make enough to live comfortably, and PCPs might have it even better, plus people who can't get insurance right now will be able to. The great part is, if you are not in medical school and for some reason you hate Obamacare even though you, just like everyone else, has no clear idea on what it will do to reimbursements, you don't have to become a doctor.

I anticipate Gut Shot will be here very soon providing the actual statistics (he/she has already done so in multiple different threads if you want to search). The salary increase for PCPs isn't a definite outcome of the ACA. Nobody knows how it will actually play out.

Bolded: Hopefully so considering that is the career we are all purusing. I just don't think future doctors should be content with an average drop in our salaries. After all, in the end this is going to be our job.

 

[cheesier]

I anticipate Gut Shot will be here very soon providing the actual statistics (he/she has already done so in multiple different threads if you want to search). The salary increase for PCPs isn't a definite outcome of the ACA. Nobody knows how it will actually play out.

Exactly. So claiming that doctors are going to earn 100K when nobody has suggested anything so ridiculous probably isn't productive. Maybe PCPs won't earn more, but generally, that's viewed as being a probable outcome of Obamacare.

 

[Dires]

Exactly. So claiming that doctors are going to earn 100K when nobody has suggested anything so ridiculous probably isn't productive. Maybe PCPs won't earn more, but generally, that's viewed as being a probable outcome of Obamacare.

PCPs are supposed to see a 10% increase. I just looked up average salaries and I saw 176,252was the average for Family Prac. My apologies, it is mostly specialties which will see the decrease.

Additionally, I have not yet seen any proof for the idea that annual check ups will decrease health care costs. It does make intuitive sense, but is there any actual statistics backing it? The majority of our health care costs are spent on the elderly.​

This is kind of unrelated, but an interesting read if you have time:
http://www.cnn.com/2012/10/19/health/time-checkups/index.html

 

[jl lin]

People need to stop smoking the dope politically speaking. As a nation, we are seriously screwed. This is the beginning of the end of a free republic, and the beginning of the end of a strong middle class--the potential for a great equalizer. And that doesn't even begin to address the level of corruption. People may need to re-think going for medicine if they don't have a rich daddy to pay for the education and loss of income in the years of that follow.

There's either an amazing level of corruption going on or people are just as lost as can be.

 

[pkwraith]

Will certainly improve the quality of work for me. I'd rather not have to tell my patient "Oh, there's a standard and indicated treatment that will improve your quality of life and life expectancy, but you're going to have to pick between that and bankruptcy." Less times I have to deal with that crap, the better my life will be.

I'd rather focus on the medicine and the patient. Dealing with Medicaid is apparently annoying, but uninsured is worse.

As an aside, they need to address the cost of medical education if there's changes to salary. People complaining about debt and salary are missing the point. So, what's the problem with ACA? Isn't your real concern the expense of medical education? Go focus on that. I am.

 

[cheesier]

PCPs are supposed to see a 10% increase. ​

Additionally, I have not yet seen any proof for the idea that annual check ups will decrease health care costs. It does make intuitive sense, but is there any actual statistics backing it? The majority of our health care costs are spent on the elderly.​

This is kind of unrelated, but an interesting read if you have time:
http://www.cnn.com/2012/10/19/health/time-checkups/index.html

I don't think annual check ups save money (and I think when Obama said they did politifact rated it as false). However, Obamacare in its entirety does save money (source) and with increased check ups (even if they don't save money), people will presumably be healthier than if they weren't getting regular care.

 

[KnuxNole]

I hope nobody expects doctors to all be making 300K or more. Thankfully, people don't actually believe that or else they would be depressed. A drop in salary shouldn't be the end all be all. Doctors arent considered highly wealthy people, unless someone is a layperson who think physicians are millionaires haha

Then again, I want to be in an outpatient clinic solely in the future, so there might be a little bias :O

 

[Dires]

Will certainly improve the quality of work for me. I'd rather not have to tell my patient "Oh, there's a standard and indicated treatment that will improve your quality of life and life expectancy, but you're going to have to pick between that and bankruptcy." Less times I have to deal with that crap, the better my life will be.

I'd rather focus on the medicine and the patient. Dealing with Medicaid is apparently annoying, but uninsured is worse.

As an aside, they need to address the cost of medical education if there's changes to salary. People complaining about debt and salary are missing the point. So, what's the problem with ACA? Isn't your real concern the expense of medical education? Go focus on that. I am.

Why do you think patients will no longer be denied treatments? Will the elderly get the short end of the stick?

I agree with your last point.

 

[cheesier]

Why do you think patients will no longer be denied treatments? Will the elderly get the short end of the stick?

I agree with your last point.

They can't be denied coverage or dropped, so there's more care for people who need it.

Edited: clarity

 

[Dires]

I don't think annual check ups save money (and I think when Obama said they did politifact rated it as false). However, Obamacare in its entirety does save money (link) and with increased check ups (even if they don't save money), people will presumably be healthier than if they weren't getting regular care.

Now you're speculating 😉

Presumably? Read the link, please! You will find it very interesting, even if you don't agree with it.

As we already pointed out nobody knows if Obamacare will actually save money.

 

[wjs010]

yes, it's bad if you want to be paid accordingly, as a justification of your long and hard training. However, if you do want to make fair salary, then yes obamacare is garbage. All of you idealy warm and fuzzy libtart youngsters need to go look in the resident section and see what actual doctors say about it...it sucks, bigtime

 

[cheesier]

Now you're speculating 😉

Presumably? Read the link, please! You will find it very interesting, even if you don't agree with it.

As we already pointed out nobody knows if Obamacare will actually save money.

Except the CBO which says it will. But hey, ignore that if you want. As for the link, I don't really know enough to say. I'm sure there are studies that have reached other conclusions.

 

[NickNaylor]

I hope nobody expects doctors to all be making 300K or more. Thankfully, people don't actually believe that or else they would be depressed. A drop in salary shouldn't be the end all be all. Doctors arent considered highly wealthy people, unless someone is a layperson who think physicians are millionaires haha

Then again, I want to be in an outpatient clinic solely in the future, so there might be a little bias :O

I think the prevailing public opinion is that physicians are bazillionaires who don't do anything but look at sore throats and order unnecessary tests to bill more and line their pockets. Afterwards they drive home to their small mansion in their Mercedes coupe and search for ways to spend all those Benjamins.

(sent from my phone)

 

[KnuxNole]

yes, it's bad if you want to be paid accordingly, as a justification of your long and hard training. However, if you do want to make fair salary, then yes obamacare is garbage. All of you idealy warm and fuzzy libtart youngsters need to go look in the resident section and see what actual doctors say about it...it sucks, bigtime

I know the old farts are mad, but I don't think I'll stop being a moderate/liberal person when I'm 60. I don't see how that would ever happen to me

Plus, like I said, how much do people expect to make? Doctors aren't always meant to be the "1%" of America, unless people are silly. I doubt anyone actually thinks that, but some people put physicians on a strange pedestal.

Nick paints the picture of what laypeople view docs as...cause we all know we come home and jump into our green pool and eating filet mignon for dinner and preparing our lobster lunch for work the next day. 😛

 

[wjs010]

I know the old farts are mad, but I don't think I'll stop being a moderate/liberal person when I'm 60. I don't see how that would ever happen to me

Plus, like I said, how much do people expect to make? Doctors aren't always meant to be the "1%" of America, unless people are silly. I doubt anyone actually thinks that, but some people put physicians on a strange pedestal.

Nick paints the picture of what people view docs as. cause we all know we come home and jump into our green pool and eating filet mignon for dinner and preparing our lobster lunch for work the next day. 😛

If you're so happy with making less, you can make less..how about that? You just make less for the rest of your career, and other docs will fight for fairness.

 

[PKAguy2202]

Primary care physicians will probably make more, specialists will probably make less, more people will have access to health insurance. If we need primary care doctors (which we do), and current doctors aren't happy with midlevels filling in the current gap (which they're not), then incentivizing primary care makes sense to me. Sure it would be nice if some specialties continued to make $400K, but there is a finite amount of money to pay doctors in reimbursements (unless you want to hurt Medicare in the long run so that specialists can make more in the short term), and what Obamacare does seems like the fairest way to get PCPs that we need.

However, nobody knows for sure what will happen. At the end of the day, doctors will still make enough to live comfortably, and PCPs might have it even better, plus people who can't get insurance right now will be able to. The great part is, if you are not in medical school and for some reason you hate Obamacare even though you, just like everyone else, has no clear idea on what it will do to reimbursements, you don't have to become a doctor.

More likely is PCP will make a little more and specialists will SEE less. As in less patients numerous specialists have already said they will refuse to accept new medicare and medicaid patients. Some hospitals have also stated that. If the Medicare cuts are voted down perhaps patients will not be as limited but PPACA will actually lose money and run in the red every year just like Italy, GB, Canada and many others already due. Not saying it's terrible just being factual.

 

[Dires]

Because they can't be denied under Obamacare. That's one of its main provisions.

That is not true for those covered under medicare.

 

[KnuxNole]

If you're so happy with making less, you can make less..how about that? You just make less for the rest of your career, and other docs will fight for fairness.

Sounds good to me! I don't see how it's unfair though, how much do you expect to make? I see NOTHING wrong with 200K at all

And people who say "I spend so much time in school, I DESERVE to get paid a lot" doesn't fly that much.

 

[wjs010]

Sounds good to me! I don't see how it's unfair though, how much do you expect to make? I see NOTHING wrong with 200K at all

And people who say "I spend so much time in school, I DESERVE to get paid a lot" doesn't fly that much.

good...glad you're okay with that...be on your way =) you will have avoided one thing:being called heartless.

 

[Ost3oclast]

Sounds good to me! I don't see how it's unfair though, how much do you expect to make? I see NOTHING wrong with 200K at all

And people who say "I spend so much time in school, I DESERVE to get paid a lot" doesn't fly that much.

If I make 200k a year I will probably crap myself. I can't imagine making that.

 

[dantt]

This likely isn't the only salary cut doctors will take. After you finish ten years of school and are a quarter million in debt with no savings, come back here and tell us you are okay making 100-150k.

It's an absolute myth that people weren't recieving care before the ACA, they just weren't guarenteed an annual check up.

and you are still premed because??

 

[KnuxNole]

If I make 200k a year I will probably crap myself. I can't imagine making that.

lol...I sound like a broken record, but I just wanna know, to those who are unhappy with that, what is the estimated salary they expect to make?

I dunno if that viewpoint is extreme, but 200K is nowhere, nowhere close to poverty for a physician. Hell, if your non-med school buddies heard you say that, they might introduce you to a dark alley 😱

 

[pkwraith]

Why do you think patients will no longer be denied treatments? Will the elderly get the short end of the stick?

I agree with your last point.

I don't think patients will no longer be denied treatments. Sometimes you should deny treatments because cost-benefit isn't there.

Healthcare is a moving goalpost. You don't get everything at once. Will more people be able to get treatments they should be getting, pe cost-benefit? Yes. That's a good thing. Will every single person in the United States get the treatment they should be getting? Obviously not. And it doesn't seem to be the right criticism. That seems to be arguing that we're not doing enough.

 

[NickNaylor]

I know the old farts are mad, but I don't think I'll stop being a moderate/liberal person when I'm 60. I don't see how that would ever happen to me

Plus, like I said, how much do people expect to make? Doctors aren't always meant to be the "1%" of America, unless people are silly. I doubt anyone actually thinks that, but some people put physicians on a strange pedestal.

Nick paints the picture of what laypeople view docs as...cause we all know we come home and jump into our green pool and eating filet mignon for dinner and preparing our lobster lunch for work the next day. 😛

If anyone could be a physician, I would agree with your point about salary. For better or worse, though, that isn't true. While money isn't the only or even primary reason I went into medicine, it was certainly a point worth considering since I will be spending 11+ years in training essentially paying to do that training. Given those real and opportunity costs, I don't think a high salary is unreasonable.

Remember, you are not only NOT earning income for eight years, you're also LOSING future income in the form of loans. You then use your high levels of training to make just below the median American salary for 3-8 years (depending on what you go into), after which you get to practice.

As someone else said, it's easy to give away things you don't have already or have sacrificed little to earn. I can tell you, though, that at times I envy my friends who are currently working 9-5, earning decent but by no means high salaries, and looking at houses and settling into "life." I don't think physicians necessarily "deserve" high salaries because "deserve" has a very negative connotation, but I do think that they're earned (do you think the average person would be willing to do the work involved to become a physician?) and I think they offer an incentive to bring the hardest workers with the highest potential into the field because their work is repaid with high salaries. I don't think any of that is a bad thing. There's also the consideration that you could pay physicians zero and patients would save 10 cents for every dollar for their care.

(sent from my phone)

 

[wjs010]

lol...I sound like a broken record, but I just wanna know, to those who are unhappy with that, what is the estimated salary they expect to make?

I dunno if that viewpoint is extreme, but 200K is nowhere, nowhere close to poverty for a physician. Hell, if your non-med school buddies heard you say that, they might introduce you to a dark alley 😱

oh hi, it seems that you are now comparing doc salary to poverty ...maybe you should go live in a commie country, you know, where you can work as hard as you want, but you can still be poor ( like everyone else) 😀

 

[KnuxNole]

If anyone could be a physician, I would agree with your point about salary. For better or worse, though, that isn't true. While money isn't the only or even primary reason I went into medicine, it was certainly a point worth considering since I will be spending 11+ years in training essentially paying to do that training. Given those real and opportunity costs, I don't think a high salary is unreasonable.

Remember, you are not only NOT earning income for eight years, you're also LOSING future income in the form of loans. You then use your high levels of training to make just below the median American salary for 3-8 years (depending on what you go into), after which you get to practice.

As someone else said, it's easy to give away things you don't have already or have sacrificed little to earn. I can tell you, though, that at times I envy my friends who are currently working 9-5, earning decent but by no means high salaries, and looking at houses and settling into "life." I don't think physicians necessarily "deserve" high salaries because "deserve" has a very negative connotation, but I do think that they're earned (do you think the average person would be willing to do the work involved to become a physician?) and I think they offer an incentive to bring the hardest workers with the highest potential into the field because their work is repaid with high salaries. I don't think any of that is a bad thing. There's also the consideration that you could pay physicians zero and patients would save 10 cents for every dollar for their care.

(sent from my phone)

That's true, physicians do earn the salary they make, I just see greedy pre-meds who are scared about not making a million bucks and kinda sigh a bit.

And I didn't compare doc salaries to poverty, since I know 200K is a load of money. 😎
Some people do though, which is kinda sad lol Guess they don't know what poor really means xD

 

[SpecterGT260]

I know the old farts are mad, but I don't think I'll stop being a moderate/liberal person when I'm 60. I don't see how that would ever happen to me

Plus, like I said, how much do people expect to make? Doctors aren't always meant to be the "1%" of America, unless people are silly. I doubt anyone actually thinks that, but some people put physicians on a strange pedestal.

Nick paints the picture of what laypeople view docs as...cause we all know we come home and jump into our green pool and eating filet mignon for dinner and preparing our lobster lunch for work the next day. 😛

People will be less willing to jump through all the hoops necessary if reimbursement is severely cut. One of two things must happen then:

1) the doctor shortage increases as people stop clamoring for medicine. The major factor in the increase in apps and competition since ~2006 has been economic. There are those starry eyed pre-meds who say they would do it regardless of pay but many (most? All?) aren't even aware of how culture has shaped their view of what medicine is. It is easy to claim altruistic motives when the reimbursement is there. That isn't the norm regardless of what application cycle would have you believe.

2) the hoops are reduced. Medical training become less of an ordeal to get through in order to make the reduced pay more of an acceptable payoff. Less rigor means lower quality of physician. Take the Chinese system where medschool is the backup if you don't get into college (from what I understand this would include grad school). There are a couple people in my class who were born in china and its quite hilarious to hear them talk about explaining med school to their relatives. "Med school?!? 😱 but we thought you got in to college!" . I've worked with a few Chinese (I.e. china trained) MDs as well when they came here for research. imagine the community college scene you are all used to. That's who treats you over there. We don't want that.

3) there is not a third option. This is simple supply and demand. Make the payoff not attractive enough to get people to deal with the crap involved in training and they won't do it.

 

[NickNaylor]

That's true, physicians do earn the salary they make, I just see greedy pre-meds who are scared about not making a million bucks and kinda sigh a bit.

And I didn't compare doc salaries to poverty, since I know 200K is a load of money. 😎
Some people do though, which is kinda sad lol Guess they don't know what poor really means xD

I agree with you that many, many pre-meds and med students have a lack of perspective in this regard. However I think the same is also true of those that say they would sacrifice x portion of their income and still become a physician. Interestingly you don't usually hear that from anyone that has begun their formal medical training... hmmmmmm...

(sent from my phone)

 

[KnuxNole]

I agree with you that many, many pre-meds and med students have a lack of perspective in this regard. However I think the same is also true of those that say they would sacrifice x portion of their income and still become a physician. Interestingly you don't usually hear that from anyone that has begun their formal medical training... hmmmmmm...

(sent from my phone)

Maybe residency will have an effect on my mentality...those 80 hrs can do a number

 

[SpecterGT260]

That's true, physicians do earn the salary they make, I just see greedy pre-meds who are scared about not making a million bucks and kinda sigh a bit.

And I didn't compare doc salaries to poverty, since I know 200K is a load of money. 😎
Some people do though, which is kinda sad lol Guess they don't know what poor really means xD

Who said anything about a million bucks? With an average of ~170-200k, any significant cut in salary suddenly means we are making marginally more than most professionals while assuming way more debt. I could have just as soon done engineering (any one of several types) in UG and been making 70% of a doctors salary after only a few years.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Maybe residency will have an effect on my mentality...those 80 hrs can do a number

Even medschool will haha. Or should once you hit wards

 

[KnuxNole]

Even medschool will haha. Or should once you hit wards

Wards had a small effect, but MS4 is bringing sunshine to my world 🙂

And ok, a million is an exaggeration. I dunno, the fear mongering shouldn't be this high so soon. Noone even answered how much they want to make(in regards to fear of not making enough) 🙁

 

[wjs010]

logic ITT: it's okay that we will be making drastically less money than in previous years, because we will still make more than "most" of the other workers. lol


oh, minus that small 13 year education plan.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Wards had a small effect, but MS4 is bringing sunshine to my world 🙂

And ok, a million is an exaggeration. I dunno, the fear mongering shouldn't be this high so soon.

Really? Lol. Sorry. On my phone and just assumed premed bc that is the forum we are in. It doesn't show titles

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