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Is optho coming down in popularity?
Started by Toadkiller Dog
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It's harder to get into this year than it has been for a while. Apparently, the quality and quantity of the applicants have both increased significantly. It was easier to get into about 5 years ago because of compensation issues, but it seems to be quite popular again. Check out sfmatch.org. There you can see a trend of increasing board scores if you want.
optho is definately getting easier to get into. Now if your average to even slightly below average you'll match where's 5 years ago you needed a signed statment from god just to get an interview. Reason's for this decreased compensation from surgeries such as lasix, stiff competition for patients from other opthomologists, and turf battle with optomotrists and primary care doctors to whom the insurance companies are steering towards to take care of basic eyecare because their cheeper. I explored optho as a career and talked to a couple of program directors and many feel that by next year up to 20 percent of the slots will be filled by foreigners and this year for the first time some programs will have fmgs in them. A friend of mine who's interviewing right know told me that at every community program he's interviewed at he's seen 1 or 2 FMGs interviewing with him. This was unheard of 5 years ago.
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Umm.... was it just me, or were those two posts completely contradictory?
I looked at the SF match website, and the first poster is correct, the average board scores have gone UP, and so has the unmatch rate for US seniors (took a steep hike last year particularly).
However, the reason I originally brought this up is that a 4th year student at my school told me optho is dropping this year (Yet another set of contradictory statements). I guess we'll just have to wait until January. It amazes me how fast things can change with respect to how popular a specialty is.
I looked at the SF match website, and the first poster is correct, the average board scores have gone UP, and so has the unmatch rate for US seniors (took a steep hike last year particularly).
However, the reason I originally brought this up is that a 4th year student at my school told me optho is dropping this year (Yet another set of contradictory statements). I guess we'll just have to wait until January. It amazes me how fast things can change with respect to how popular a specialty is.
godfather obviously has no clue whatsoever about what he is talking about!!! First of all, nobody should be allowed to comment as an expert on something they cannot even spell. It is OPHTHALMOLOGY!!! Secondly, your assessment is about 5 years behind. The truth is, 10 years ago it was tough, 5 years ago it was easy, now it is tough again. The truth is, the past 3 years about 1 in 5 US SENIOR applicants did not match. That is out of a self-selected group of individuals who thought they were good enough to match. That doesn't sound too easy to me!!!
hey sunyboy i'm sorry i don't speeell weeelll enough for your tastes at 2 in the morning *****. If you feel that somebody is posting something that isn't accurate just say so politely, you don't have to be nasty and be a total jackass about it. As far as the information i'm giving you, it's accurate to the best of my knowledge. ***** 5 years ago was when it was supertough to get into optho,(I know because i have friends that were going into it at this time, they were AOA with research experience and were on average receiving 1 interview for ever 3 places they applied to. Average students back then weren't getting interviews) as many of the innovations in eye surgery were still relatively new and eye docs were making alot of money. The reason i believe it's less competitive this year is because i know alot of average and below average candidates(in terms of numbers and research experience, which isn't really even required nowadays) that have already received multiple interviews. Furthermore last year i knew a number of people with low board scores (around 200-210 step 1) that matched. optho usually isn't a field with mass appeal for med students(usually only 3 to 7 students out of most med schools go into it coupled with the fact that their turf is shrinking as pcp's and optomotrists( I know this isn't spelled right and i really don't care sunyboy) are providing more of the primary eyecare, simply doesn't make this field as attractive as it once was. You guys should ask around, because maybe i'm way off on this one like Mr. spelling bee(sunyboy) is suggesting, however i will say that based on some of my friends interview and match results and talking to 1 program director i'm going stand by what I stated that optho is much easier to get in nowadays and this trend has been going on for the past 5 years.
Such animosity. . .nice to see there's intelligent, reasonable discussion going on here. Anyway, I'm not here to bash other posters, I'm just trying to help out Toadkiller.
I'm a 4th yr applying for optho this year, and my info is from other candidates as well as various program directors and secretaries. All have agreed that optho is harder this year than in years past. SUNYBoy's assessment is accurate. I don't know where godfather got his info, but all my info disagrees. Of course there will always be people with lower board scores matching somewhere, that's just how it goes. That's why it's an average. Good candidates will get shut out sometimes too, whether it's due to personality issues, rank-list mistakes, or just plain bad luck. In any case, if you're thinking about optho, go for it. Just make sure you've got good board scores, grades, and recs, just like any other competitive specialty.
I'm a 4th yr applying for optho this year, and my info is from other candidates as well as various program directors and secretaries. All have agreed that optho is harder this year than in years past. SUNYBoy's assessment is accurate. I don't know where godfather got his info, but all my info disagrees. Of course there will always be people with lower board scores matching somewhere, that's just how it goes. That's why it's an average. Good candidates will get shut out sometimes too, whether it's due to personality issues, rank-list mistakes, or just plain bad luck. In any case, if you're thinking about optho, go for it. Just make sure you've got good board scores, grades, and recs, just like any other competitive specialty.
L
Leotigers
Hey 7ontheline,
Which programs have you liked so far? From speaking with your co-interviewees, which are the most sought after programs? Any info on any midwest programs? I would really appreciate any info. Thanks.
And for anybody else interviewing, your input would be greatly appreciated as well.
For everyone else, Ophthalmology is, was, and always will be a fairly competitive specialty. Even at its lowest point, all the spots were still being matched. And the number of spots have decreased since then.
Which programs have you liked so far? From speaking with your co-interviewees, which are the most sought after programs? Any info on any midwest programs? I would really appreciate any info. Thanks.
And for anybody else interviewing, your input would be greatly appreciated as well.
For everyone else, Ophthalmology is, was, and always will be a fairly competitive specialty. Even at its lowest point, all the spots were still being matched. And the number of spots have decreased since then.
"There are tons of slots in ER and Radiology too, just as many and growing!"
There are 800-900 slots in radiology and many more qualified US student applicants. Last year at least 300 senior US MD grads did not obtain positions. While there are debates about increasing spots, there is nothing certain yet and the number of slots has remained steady for several years.
I remember how last year people were saying this was going to be a competitive year. Perhaps it was for all the DO applicants and FMGs. US MD grads had no problem last year and will not have any this year. DOs matched to prestigious places like UCSF, Hopkins, etc. last year look at the match lists.
There are 800-900 slots in radiology and many more qualified US student applicants. Last year at least 300 senior US MD grads did not obtain positions. While there are debates about increasing spots, there is nothing certain yet and the number of slots has remained steady for several years.
I remember how last year people were saying this was going to be a competitive year. Perhaps it was for all the DO applicants and FMGs. US MD grads had no problem last year and will not have any this year. DOs matched to prestigious places like UCSF, Hopkins, etc. last year look at the match lists.
Oh NO...DEAR GOD,
All of you are right. Anesthesia is horrible. Don't apply, don't match into it. IT WILL BE IMPOSSIBLE TO MATCH THIS YEAR. EVERYONE PLEASE PULL OUT OF THE MATCH. Go into something less competitive, like derm or ENT. Don't be surprised if the non-match rate is 30-50% for US grads. OH DEAR GOD...WE ARE ALL SCREWED. Why do people want to go into it...nurse anesthesists are taking their salary, surgeons abuse them, there won't be any cases in the future because hospitals will have nurse anesthesists doing triple bypasses and critical care. GO INTO PM&R PLEASE... it is great lifestyle, you can do tons of rehab work, THEY PAY IS UNBELEIVABLE (better than neurosurgeons and cardiothoracic surgeons)...AND THE BEST PART IS ORTHOPEDIC SURGEONS LOVE YOU, RESPECT YOU, AND CONSULT WITH YOU BEFORE THEY EVEN DO SURGERY. SOME WON'T EVEN RUN THEIR CLINICS WITHOUT A PROFESSIONAL, BOARD CERTIFIED, PM & R PHYSICIAN THERE. And it's not as if a PA with PM&R experience can do the rehab work you can do, BECAUSE THEY JUST AREN'T BRIGHT ENOUGH OR TALENTED ENOUGH TO REPLACE A PHYSICIAN IN THIS FIELD. OR Radiology which is cutting edge and exciting, or ER which has such a mellow schedule...PLEASE PEOPLE THERE ARE OTHER THINGS IN MEDICINE TO DO. THOSE IN THE ANESTHESIA MATCH THIS YEAR...I FEAR FOR YOU. The whole lot of you are collectively screwed. THERE WILL BE NO JOBS WHEN YOU COME OUT, YOUR COMPENSATION WILL SHRINK TO THE LEVEL OF SCHOOL TEACHERS, AND NURSE ANETHESISTS WILL MAKE DOUBLE TO TRIPLE YOUR SALARY, AND YOU WILL WORK FOR THEM. THEY WILL RUN OR'S AND THEY WILL SUPERVISE PHYSICIANS. What will you do with your autonomy then? IT'S THE END OF THE WORLD...GET OFF THE SHIP NOW.
Ehmm...ok...now that the sarcasm has officially been laid really thick (my apologies if it got sticky at points) but basically I am telling all of you....YOU CANNOT PREDICT ANYTHING. This country might have completely market force driven medicine in twenty years or it could be completely socialized. Radiology might be the most lucrative field in the world, or teleradiology will reduce the need for so manhy radiologists. MY POINT IS IT'S UNPREDICTABLE. Yes, nurse anesthesists may take some of our jobs, and lord knows they've already taken some of our compensation. But that's life...and that's the world we live in. If I enjoyed orhtopedic surgery I would do it. I wouldn't worry about hours, compensation, time and energy. I wouldn't care if it was easier next year than this year..worse the following year from the previous year. All of that would be irrelevant to me. Some fields will be good, some will be bad. Everything is cyclical. Do what you love...enjoy life...let the rest take care of itself. If you're smart, and you worked hard...you'll get in life where you want to go. It wasn't easy to get into med school, it won't be easy to match at the residency you want to match too, and once you get out you will have to have shrewd business skills to make the money from your practice, that business devoid physicians made in the 80's heyday of medicine. Welcome to the real world. But, whether you match or not, do well or not...know what you want to do...and pursue to the highest order. Don't ever be satisified, achieve. Become the best at whatever you do...AND DON'T GIVE A RAT'S ASS ABOUT OTHER PEOPLES OPINIONS OF YORU FIELDS...WHETHER IT'S COMPETITIVE OR NOT..JOB PROSPECTS IN TWENTY YEARS. In life..those things sort themselves out. If you can't get a job in the medical field of your choice when you're done with your residency..do locum work and get a law degree and do patent law. Or go to business school...or do a reasearch fellowship and go into biotech or pharma. Whatever it is...do what you love...and play the cards that are dealt you. In the end, I gaurantee...if you did things in life for the right reasons...you won't be disappointed when the wrong reasons don't pan out. Peace, and good luck.
All of you are right. Anesthesia is horrible. Don't apply, don't match into it. IT WILL BE IMPOSSIBLE TO MATCH THIS YEAR. EVERYONE PLEASE PULL OUT OF THE MATCH. Go into something less competitive, like derm or ENT. Don't be surprised if the non-match rate is 30-50% for US grads. OH DEAR GOD...WE ARE ALL SCREWED. Why do people want to go into it...nurse anesthesists are taking their salary, surgeons abuse them, there won't be any cases in the future because hospitals will have nurse anesthesists doing triple bypasses and critical care. GO INTO PM&R PLEASE... it is great lifestyle, you can do tons of rehab work, THEY PAY IS UNBELEIVABLE (better than neurosurgeons and cardiothoracic surgeons)...AND THE BEST PART IS ORTHOPEDIC SURGEONS LOVE YOU, RESPECT YOU, AND CONSULT WITH YOU BEFORE THEY EVEN DO SURGERY. SOME WON'T EVEN RUN THEIR CLINICS WITHOUT A PROFESSIONAL, BOARD CERTIFIED, PM & R PHYSICIAN THERE. And it's not as if a PA with PM&R experience can do the rehab work you can do, BECAUSE THEY JUST AREN'T BRIGHT ENOUGH OR TALENTED ENOUGH TO REPLACE A PHYSICIAN IN THIS FIELD. OR Radiology which is cutting edge and exciting, or ER which has such a mellow schedule...PLEASE PEOPLE THERE ARE OTHER THINGS IN MEDICINE TO DO. THOSE IN THE ANESTHESIA MATCH THIS YEAR...I FEAR FOR YOU. The whole lot of you are collectively screwed. THERE WILL BE NO JOBS WHEN YOU COME OUT, YOUR COMPENSATION WILL SHRINK TO THE LEVEL OF SCHOOL TEACHERS, AND NURSE ANETHESISTS WILL MAKE DOUBLE TO TRIPLE YOUR SALARY, AND YOU WILL WORK FOR THEM. THEY WILL RUN OR'S AND THEY WILL SUPERVISE PHYSICIANS. What will you do with your autonomy then? IT'S THE END OF THE WORLD...GET OFF THE SHIP NOW.
Ehmm...ok...now that the sarcasm has officially been laid really thick (my apologies if it got sticky at points) but basically I am telling all of you....YOU CANNOT PREDICT ANYTHING. This country might have completely market force driven medicine in twenty years or it could be completely socialized. Radiology might be the most lucrative field in the world, or teleradiology will reduce the need for so manhy radiologists. MY POINT IS IT'S UNPREDICTABLE. Yes, nurse anesthesists may take some of our jobs, and lord knows they've already taken some of our compensation. But that's life...and that's the world we live in. If I enjoyed orhtopedic surgery I would do it. I wouldn't worry about hours, compensation, time and energy. I wouldn't care if it was easier next year than this year..worse the following year from the previous year. All of that would be irrelevant to me. Some fields will be good, some will be bad. Everything is cyclical. Do what you love...enjoy life...let the rest take care of itself. If you're smart, and you worked hard...you'll get in life where you want to go. It wasn't easy to get into med school, it won't be easy to match at the residency you want to match too, and once you get out you will have to have shrewd business skills to make the money from your practice, that business devoid physicians made in the 80's heyday of medicine. Welcome to the real world. But, whether you match or not, do well or not...know what you want to do...and pursue to the highest order. Don't ever be satisified, achieve. Become the best at whatever you do...AND DON'T GIVE A RAT'S ASS ABOUT OTHER PEOPLES OPINIONS OF YORU FIELDS...WHETHER IT'S COMPETITIVE OR NOT..JOB PROSPECTS IN TWENTY YEARS. In life..those things sort themselves out. If you can't get a job in the medical field of your choice when you're done with your residency..do locum work and get a law degree and do patent law. Or go to business school...or do a reasearch fellowship and go into biotech or pharma. Whatever it is...do what you love...and play the cards that are dealt you. In the end, I gaurantee...if you did things in life for the right reasons...you won't be disappointed when the wrong reasons don't pan out. Peace, and good luck.
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Thanks test boy,
But rad does make a good point...maybe I am in idiot. I don't know what part of what I said specifically makes me stupid, but needless to say what I love about an open forum is everyone is provided an opportunity to represent their own opinion. So I respect the fact that you think I'm an idiot (I think it's somewhat humorous in a way). My sole point in my rampant musings was just that people seem to be preoccupied with the money a field will provide, the future that it holds, the hours they work, and how competitive it is to get in. It's tough that these metrics instead of the fundamental question, "what do I love to do?", are the ones that are asked. I can't fault anyone for feeling that way (you guys have debt, and length of schooling. When I graduated med school, I felt the same way). But part of the reason I left medicine, and started my own company was the negativism I heard and percieved in medicine. What people could and couldn't get into, who was or was not qualified to be a certain kind of doctor, is medicine worth it, and how good one field was versus how incompetent another was....and frankly that's the way I viewed the world. I guess my point is, now that I've had some time to pull away and evaluate, is that the people in life who I've met that have been the most successful genuinely loved what they did. People who chose their life paths for other reasons, ended up resenting what they became or were always searching for more. My software company has given me more money than anyone my age should have. But I am unhappy...because this is not what I love to do. The number of hoops and hurdles I've had to jump through to get back into the match for residency next year HAVE BEEN UNBELIEVABLE. I've been gone one year, and my dedication is already being questioned. A few places that denied me interviews even told me that this was their biggest concern. But...screw it...those are the cards dealt me. I know what I want to be, what I'll love to do, so as difficult as it is for my ego to handle getting a rejection e-mail of any type, I recognize that these things happen. Will people with lower scores and grades than mine match at places where I was denied interviews? Yes. Is radiology competitive? yes. Is ER competitive? yes. Is opthomology competitive? yes. Is anesthesia more competitive this year than it has been in a long time? OH YEAH! But you know what...who cares. Ask yourself..do you love radiology? Then fine...even if you're a DO, or praticed medicine for twenty years in Botswana...find a way to match. Crawl, kill...kiss people's ass if you have to. But make your dreams happen. I'm amazed what you can accomplish in America. The greatest thing about us american "idiots" is that we can be dumb, book dead, unable to formulate thoughts...but if we worked hard, and had a clear goal in mind..IN THIS COUNTRY..WE HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO SUCCEED. Go into the field you want because you love it. AND DO ANYTHING YOU CAN TO GET THERE. I love medicine...if I don't match in what I want...I'll do something else in medicine. I'll make my dream happen. And no matter how many people post about how stupid my career is, or how the compensation sucks I won't listen to them. And my advice is for every D.O. or every FMG or every person with mid level board scores...or mid level grades...the only thing you have to get to your dream is keep working. You may not get to go to the best program, but you'll go somewhere. All my original post was meant to say was, do a rotation and see if you like it. If you do...THEN DO WHATEVER YOU HAVE TO DO TO GET INTO THE FIELD. Don't listen to posts, don't listen to detractors..don't pay any attention to anything anyone has to say about the field you have choosen. Just do it...and be happy that you get to do something you love. Most people don't even have that luxury.
I MAY BE AN IDIOT RAD, BUT I'm the happiest dumb ass around. And I don't need to put you down to get there. Good luck dude, whatever you do. In the end, you'll get where you belong and hopefully it will have been worth it.
For my detractors...THIS WILL BE MY LAST POST. Best of luck to all of you, and take care.
Peace,
Brownman, MD 2000
But rad does make a good point...maybe I am in idiot. I don't know what part of what I said specifically makes me stupid, but needless to say what I love about an open forum is everyone is provided an opportunity to represent their own opinion. So I respect the fact that you think I'm an idiot (I think it's somewhat humorous in a way). My sole point in my rampant musings was just that people seem to be preoccupied with the money a field will provide, the future that it holds, the hours they work, and how competitive it is to get in. It's tough that these metrics instead of the fundamental question, "what do I love to do?", are the ones that are asked. I can't fault anyone for feeling that way (you guys have debt, and length of schooling. When I graduated med school, I felt the same way). But part of the reason I left medicine, and started my own company was the negativism I heard and percieved in medicine. What people could and couldn't get into, who was or was not qualified to be a certain kind of doctor, is medicine worth it, and how good one field was versus how incompetent another was....and frankly that's the way I viewed the world. I guess my point is, now that I've had some time to pull away and evaluate, is that the people in life who I've met that have been the most successful genuinely loved what they did. People who chose their life paths for other reasons, ended up resenting what they became or were always searching for more. My software company has given me more money than anyone my age should have. But I am unhappy...because this is not what I love to do. The number of hoops and hurdles I've had to jump through to get back into the match for residency next year HAVE BEEN UNBELIEVABLE. I've been gone one year, and my dedication is already being questioned. A few places that denied me interviews even told me that this was their biggest concern. But...screw it...those are the cards dealt me. I know what I want to be, what I'll love to do, so as difficult as it is for my ego to handle getting a rejection e-mail of any type, I recognize that these things happen. Will people with lower scores and grades than mine match at places where I was denied interviews? Yes. Is radiology competitive? yes. Is ER competitive? yes. Is opthomology competitive? yes. Is anesthesia more competitive this year than it has been in a long time? OH YEAH! But you know what...who cares. Ask yourself..do you love radiology? Then fine...even if you're a DO, or praticed medicine for twenty years in Botswana...find a way to match. Crawl, kill...kiss people's ass if you have to. But make your dreams happen. I'm amazed what you can accomplish in America. The greatest thing about us american "idiots" is that we can be dumb, book dead, unable to formulate thoughts...but if we worked hard, and had a clear goal in mind..IN THIS COUNTRY..WE HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO SUCCEED. Go into the field you want because you love it. AND DO ANYTHING YOU CAN TO GET THERE. I love medicine...if I don't match in what I want...I'll do something else in medicine. I'll make my dream happen. And no matter how many people post about how stupid my career is, or how the compensation sucks I won't listen to them. And my advice is for every D.O. or every FMG or every person with mid level board scores...or mid level grades...the only thing you have to get to your dream is keep working. You may not get to go to the best program, but you'll go somewhere. All my original post was meant to say was, do a rotation and see if you like it. If you do...THEN DO WHATEVER YOU HAVE TO DO TO GET INTO THE FIELD. Don't listen to posts, don't listen to detractors..don't pay any attention to anything anyone has to say about the field you have choosen. Just do it...and be happy that you get to do something you love. Most people don't even have that luxury.
I MAY BE AN IDIOT RAD, BUT I'm the happiest dumb ass around. And I don't need to put you down to get there. Good luck dude, whatever you do. In the end, you'll get where you belong and hopefully it will have been worth it.
For my detractors...THIS WILL BE MY LAST POST. Best of luck to all of you, and take care.
Peace,
Brownman, MD 2000
Wait a second, weren't we originally talking about opfamoligy? (Did I spell that right? Shucks.)
L
Leotigers
I must agree that Anesthesia is much harder this year. From what I hear the applicant pool is stellar. One top anesthesia program said that 100 applicants had a USMLE score better than 240, and that 50% of those had a score of greater than 250. Pretty impressive. I must disagree a bit with SEVO's previous post of DO students getting squeezed out of the top anesthesia programs. I am a DO student and have been offered an anesthesia position outside of the match at the Brigham and Yale. I think that it is more difficult for a DO student to get a top anesthesia program (b/c most do not take the USMLE and maybe the gods of medicine are biased towards us), but not impossible.
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