Is Pass/Fail really that important?

[CavsFan2016]

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If a medical school is pass/fail but still ranks their students, does it even really matter?

 

[efle]

Residencies don't care about your preclinical grades, they care about your Step

Many residencies do care about ranking, but ranking is often based primarily off of your clinical year

So unless you'd be unable to cope with graded M1-M2, even knowing the grades don't matter nearly as much as several other things, you shouldn't factor this very heavily into your decisions on where to apply/matriculate

 

[CavsFan2016]

How do you rank during the clinical year exactly?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[kb1900]

i want to know why the *** every medical school advertises the **** out of its curriculum and preclinical assets when its so stupidly low in terms of importance when it comes to matching.

Only 2 schools of my 8 interviews truly advertised their clinical facilities. 1 of the 8 interview days let us talk to a non-MS1/2. If clinical rotations are so important, why is there no way to actually get insight into their quality at a particular school?

randomly hoping to get into contact with upperclassman during second look/facebook groups is so stupid.

 

[efle]

How do you rank during the clinical year exactly?

There are grades for clinical rotations (honors/high pass/pass/fail for example). You want to get as many high marks as possible.

If clinical rotations are so important, why is there no way to actually get insight into their quality at a particular school?

Would you really be able to assess the quality of clinical education, fairness of grading etc just by touring through the areas of the hospitals tho? I don't think they really can give you any impression

 

[QofQuimica]

If a medical school is pass/fail but still ranks their students, does it even really matter?

No. I'd in fact argue that pretty much nothing your medical school does during the first two years really matters, assuming you're attending an accredited American school that covers all the preclinical sciences and teaches you how to do a basic H&P.

 

[ski89]

Residencies don't care about your preclinical grades, they care about your Step

Many residencies do care about ranking, but ranking is often based primarily off of your clinical year

So unless you'd be unable to cope with graded M1-M2, even knowing the grades don't matter nearly as much as several other things, you shouldn't factor this very heavily into your decisions on where to apply/matriculate

I have to disagree somewhat with this. There are a few nice things about a pass/fail curriculum IMO.
1. Not having to worry or fixate on getting honors in preclinical years will make you feel more free to pursue research opportunities as you do not feel like you have to sacrifice class rank to gain research pubs/experiences.
2. Overall stress during the preclinicals will likely be lower and learning to manage time and stress is a big part of the first two years of med school in my experience.

It's difficult to say how much to weight to give the p/f curriculum. It's definitely a factor to consider (among many many others). I definitely would NOT use it as a factor in deciding where to apply, but if you are fortunate to get multiple acceptances, then this could be one very good factor to consider when deciding between two otherwise comparable schools.

 

[kb1900]

There are grades for clinical rotations (honors/high pass/pass/fail for example). You want to get as many high marks as possible.


Would you really be able to assess the quality of clinical education, fairness of grading etc just by touring through the areas of the hospitals tho? I don't think they really can give you any impression

No but talking to non-MS1/2s can. At Sinai, you get a preclinical tour by an MS1/2 and then a tour of the clinical facilities by an Ms3/4. It was by far the most informative intveriew day I had this cycle.

 

[efle]

1. Not having to worry or fixate on getting honors in preclinical years will make you feel more free to pursue research opportunities as you do not feel like you have to sacrifice class rank to gain research pubs/experiences.
2. Overall stress during the preclinicals will likely be lower and learning to manage time and stress is a big part of the first two years of med school in my experience.

Why would you fixate or be stressed out by something you know doesn't matter though?

 

[Lucca]

i want to know why the *** every medical school advertises the **** out of its curriculum and preclinical assets when its so stupidly low in terms of importance when it comes to matching.

Only 2 schools of my 8 interviews truly advertised their clinical facilities. 1 of the 8 interview days let us talk to a non-MS1/2. If clinical rotations are so important, why is there no way to actually get insight into their quality at a particular school?

randomly hoping to get into contact with upperclassman during second look/facebook groups is so stupid.

A couple of years ago, SS made a good post about trying to assess the strength of clinical rotations that might be useful:

You have a great question. It is really hard to evaluate, often under-emphasized on the interview day, yet in my mind having gone through medical school it was the clinical years that truly made my education.

Pre-meds unfortunately spend most of their time asking questions like "how many students per cadaver?" - a factor that will have so so so little impact on their education. The med schools encourage this though too, as most of their presentations and tours focus on the pre-clinical experience (it doesn't help that most tour guides are M1s and M2s).

As to your ideas of questions...the first one I'd toss out the window. Every school is building some fancy multimillion dollar simulation center, but at the end of the day, simulation is not, nor should be, the focus of the clinical years. You can learn a lot of the fundamentals of interviewing patients and physical exam technique from SPs, but real learning comes from pathology and interacting with patients and a team in the hospital.

Your second question is closer.

Here are a few more off the top of my head I'd consider asking about (diplomatically):
1. How many sites do students rotate at? What is the breakdown of time spent at the "mothership" (home institution) versus satellite sites? (i.e. how good/comprehensive is the home institution?)
2. Do you have to travel out of town for any of your rotations? (i.e. am I going to have to uproot myself for 8 weeks third year because you want me to go to the middle of nowhere for my surgery rotation?)
3. How big is the hospital? Is it a level 1 trauma center and tertiary/quaternary referral center? ( i.e. are the sickest, craziest patients in the region coming here?)
4. How much advice do students get from their school and their peers about which rotations provide the best experience? (i.e. am I going to be coming on SDN in three years asking for advice about whether a rotation at west bumblef**k U is better than a rotation at east bumblef**k U?)
5. What is a typical day like on the wards on IM, peds, surgery? (i.e. am I going to get murdered hours wise?)
6. How are the clinical years graded? How many students typically get honors? ( i.e. gunners gotta gun...)
7. Do you have any other professional students rotate with you like PA or NP? ( i.e. am I going to have some freaking NP student stealing cases/procedures/patients/attention from me?)
8. How happy have you been with the clinical experience? Is there anything you feel like you've missed out on?
9. Does the school have any limits on how many 4th year rotations/away rotations you can do in any one field? (i.e. if I decide I want to do derm, plastics, etc, am I gonna be able to do enough audition rotations to match?)

 

[ski89]

Why would you fixate or be stressed out by something you know doesn't matter though?

Multiple reasons:
1. Many of us are naturally competitive and high achieving, and would feel compelled to strive for the best grade possible (this of course does not apply to everyone, but to many people it would)
2. If the school offer AOA, your preclinical grades will likely come into play
3. Many schools do in fact use preclinical grades to formulate rankings

 

[kb1900]

A couple of years ago, SS made a good post about trying to assess the strength of clinical rotations that might be useful:

SO helpful. thank you! especially with SLWs coming up in a few months