Is pathology really that bad of a deal right now?

[deleted314957]

Ok GB and Keratin, take it easy with the “old people in FL” digs.🤨⚰️😉

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[bauber]

FL is great. Grew up here, left for training, and came back to work. Love it here except for some of the politics but that's anywhere. And yes, lots and lots of lawyers. No winter!

 

[Drifter76]

Sometimes I feel like pathologists are wanting to have their cake and eat it too. They want to have the lowest work load and stress level in medicine and get compensated like someone in Ortho. Stop comparing our field to Cardio, surgery and Pulm/crit, its not comparable, the stress and liability in those fields are completely different. It makes us look like prissy *****s when we bemoan our conditions. Yall talk about wanting to gain respect for the field but your on here acting a fool. For those of you interested in the field dont listen to the internet go talk to pathologist's, hear what people in the real world are saying.

Since when do pathologists have the lowest workload and stress level in medicine? I’ve had multiple jobs where I routinely worked 60-70 hours a week. The idea that pathology jobs are consistently great hours and low stress is a myth. In terms of stress, my job is certainly more stressful than working an outpatient clinic treating runny noses and sore throats. Missing or overcalling cancer on a small biopsy can be quite consequential, and there is significant stress associated with trying to avoid mistakes. The system expects us to be perfect though none of us are. If you are still in training you are largely shielded from this stress since the buck doesn’t stop with you (yet), but you will learn.
The issue with pathology is not that people want to get paid a whole lot of money to do a whole lot of nothing- the issue is that there is stress and work, along with years of education and training, without the commensurate compensation and professional respect. There are travel nurses right now (not even mid levels- just RNs) making as much money as a lot of pathologists. Many hospitals have MBA types and non-physician managers who have more say in the operation of the lab than the pathologist. Most of these people would have their application promptly deposited in the wastebasket if they ever tried to get into medical school, yet they think they are qualified to tell a physician how to do their job. I’ve seen it numerous times.
I wish more had “bemoan(ed) the field” to me when I was a student- might’ve been the best thing anyone could’ve done for me. I might’ve made some smarter choices when it came to specialty choice.
Gaining respect for the field? The field is broken. People should stay the hell away from this field and pick something where they can actually have a career. I am very much in the real world, and this is what I am saying.

 

[HowlPrenderghast]

Since when do pathologists have the lowest workload and stress level in medicine? I’ve had multiple jobs where I routinely worked 60-70 hours a week. The idea that pathology jobs are consistently great hours and low stress is a myth. In terms of stress, my job is certainly more stressful than working an outpatient clinic treating runny noses and sore throats. Missing or overcalling cancer on a small biopsy can be quite consequential, and there is significant stress associated with trying to avoid mistakes. The system expects us to be perfect though none of us are. If you are still in training you are largely shielded from this stress since the buck doesn’t stop with you (yet), but you will learn.
The issue with pathology is not that people want to get paid a whole lot of money to do a whole lot of nothing- the issue is that there is stress and work, along with years of education and training, without the commensurate compensation and professional respect. There are travel nurses right now (not even mid levels- just RNs) making as much money as a lot of pathologists. Many hospitals have MBA types and non-physician managers who have more say in the operation of the lab than the pathologist. Most of these people would have their application promptly deposited in the wastebasket if they ever tried to get into medical school, yet they think they are qualified to tell a physician how to do their job. I’ve seen it numerous times.
I wish more had “bemoan(ed) the field” to me when I was a student- might’ve been the best thing anyone could’ve done for me. I might’ve made some smarter choices when it came to specialty choice.
Gaining respect for the field? The field is broken. People should stay the hell away from this field and pick something where they can actually have a career. I am very much in the real world, and this is what I am saying.

I feel so sad about your situation as I can feel the frustration and regret. I hope you can find satisfaction in your current circumstances and grow in your respective field despite the barriers.

 

[bauber]

my job is certainly more stressful than working an outpatient clinic treating runny noses and sore throats.

You are vastly understating the difficulty, complexity, and stress involved in being a PCP. My best friend is one and he had to quit because it was ruining his life. It's not a pissing match, we all have it bad to one degree or another, and we gain nothing by downplaying the stress and burnout our clinician counterparts experience.

 

[Mx300]

Since when do pathologists have the lowest workload and stress level in medicine? I’ve had multiple jobs where I routinely worked 60-70 hours a week. The idea that pathology jobs are consistently great hours and low stress is a myth. In terms of stress, my job is certainly more stressful than working an outpatient clinic treating runny noses and sore throats. Missing or overcalling cancer on a small biopsy can be quite consequential, and there is significant stress associated with trying to avoid mistakes. The system expects us to be perfect though none of us are. If you are still in training you are largely shielded from this stress since the buck doesn’t stop with you (yet), but you will learn.
The issue with pathology is not that people want to get paid a whole lot of money to do a whole lot of nothing- the issue is that there is stress and work, along with years of education and training, without the commensurate compensation and professional respect. There are travel nurses right now (not even mid levels- just RNs) making as much money as a lot of pathologists. Many hospitals have MBA types and non-physician managers who have more say in the operation of the lab than the pathologist. Most of these people would have their application promptly deposited in the wastebasket if they ever tried to get into medical school, yet they think they are qualified to tell a physician how to do their job. I’ve seen it numerous times.
I wish more had “bemoan(ed) the field” to me when I was a student- might’ve been the best thing anyone could’ve done for me. I might’ve made some smarter choices when it came to specialty choice.
Gaining respect for the field? The field is broken. People should stay the hell away from this field and pick something where they can actually have a career. I am very much in the real world, and this is what I am saying.

I never said that pathology isnt stressful. Every specialty in medicine is stressful but comparatively pathology is one of the lower stress ones. This obviously depends on what type of job you have and the volume. People should take note how there is alot of conflicting complaints on this forum. People complain that pathologists work into their 80's and therefore the job market suffers. Then they say how stressful and horrible the job actually is. Why is it common to work into your 80's in a field that is so horrible? Clinicians are burning out after 10-15 years in their field. I have heard so many more stories of people leaving medicine or switching careers in clinical medicine than I have about pathologist regrets out in the world. Usually when I do hear pathologists grumble it seems to be more about their regrets entering medicine not about the field they chose.

Also your complaints about RN's and MBA's that is an issue for all of medicine, that is not specifically a pathology problem.

 

[Napoleon1801]

1099 income

Yep, found that out the hard way babysitting a plasma collection center. It was about half the advertised pay post taxes.

 

[LADoc00]

Dunno, there is NO ONE is any medical specialty I am even remotely aware of doing as well as I am right now in the entire state of California who I dont know personally or routinely interact with.

I got 99+ problems in my life but money is absolutely not one of them. Although some of my current problems are so epic I would probably trade most of my money to get rid of them.

 

[Spaziergängerin]

Wait until you are in the real world and then talk again... good luck

I'm in the real world. Like my job, happy, like my colleagues. Considered other jobs and had multiple offers (6) in the area I wanted to live. I do agree that it is very very different outside of hospital-based jobs though. I have no interest (and never did) in private practice. Will I ever make 7 figures? No, but I was never was looking for that. I am able to take time off when I want, see my family at holiday, and have an excellent work-life balance. I was a US graduate with good boards and could have chosen most other fields, but I chose path because I liked the people. I think we're more interesting as a group.

 

[Drifter76]

I never said that pathology isnt stressful. Every specialty in medicine is stressful but comparatively pathology is one of the lower stress ones. This obviously depends on what type of job you have and the volume. People should take note how there is alot of conflicting complaints on this forum. People complain that pathologists work into their 80's and therefore the job market suffers. Then they say how stressful and horrible the job actually is. Why is it common to work into your 80's in a field that is so horrible? Clinicians are burning out after 10-15 years in their field. I have heard so many more stories of people leaving medicine or switching careers in clinical medicine than I have about pathologist regrets out in the world. Usually when I do hear pathologists grumble it seems to be more about their regrets entering medicine not about the field they chose.

Also your complaints about RN's and MBA's that is an issue for all of medicine, that is not specifically a pathology problem.

You are vastly understating the difficulty, complexity, and stress involved in being a PCP. My best friend is one and he had to quit because it was ruining his life. It's not a pissing match, we all have it bad to one degree or another, and we gain nothing by downplaying the stress and burnout our clinician counterparts experience.

Actually, I’m not. There’s a reason why mid levels with just an undergrad degree and a couple years of PA school under their belt can do 90 percent of what the average PCP can do.
Granted, there’s other types of (social) bs that PCPs have to deal with that we don’t, just like in other direct patient care specialties.

 

[Drifter76]

I never said that pathology isnt stressful. Every specialty in medicine is stressful but comparatively pathology is one of the lower stress ones. This obviously depends on what type of job you have and the volume. People should take note how there is alot of conflicting complaints on this forum. People complain that pathologists work into their 80's and therefore the job market suffers. Then they say how stressful and horrible the job actually is. Why is it common to work into your 80's in a field that is so horrible? Clinicians are burning out after 10-15 years in their field. I have heard so many more stories of people leaving medicine or switching careers in clinical medicine than I have about pathologist regrets out in the world. Usually when I do hear pathologists grumble it seems to be more about their regrets entering medicine not about the field they chose.

Also your complaints about RN's and MBA's that is an issue for all of medicine, that is not specifically a pathology problem.

The ones working into their 70s got in on the ground floor and are often the exploiters (the ones making all the money while others do a disproportionate amount of the work) while the new people coming in are the ones being exploited. Big difference there…. When one of these fat cat 70 year old partners retires, they usually aren’t replaced by a newbie who is going to have the same career opportunities and career trajectory as what that 70 year old had when they were coming out. They’ll be replaced by a grunt who will spend their career pushing glass hard for low pay, so somebody else can get a bigger bonus check. That’s the scam.

The travel RNs I mentioned are making more than a lot of younger pathologists (which is quite pathetic) but they most certainly are not making more than the orthopedists, urologists, radiologists etc.. so yes .. that is specifically an indictment of how pathologists are being treated in the workforce.

I understand it is upsetting to be told you’ve made a big mistake with your career.. I made the same mistake and now I am stuck. I’ll be stuck in this purgatory until I retire or until I die. Whichever comes first. The good news for you is, if you are a resident, it isn’t too late for you to get out. Even if you stay in medicine, there are options that are a lot better, where you won’t have to spend your career being an indentured servant. My advice is to accept reality and get the hell out while you can.

 

[cmz]

The ones working into their 70s got in on the ground floor and are often the exploiters (the ones making all the money while others do a disproportionate amount of the work) while the new people coming in are the ones being exploited. Big difference there…. When one of these fat cat 70 year old partners retires, they usually aren’t replaced by a newbie who is going to have the same career opportunities and career trajectory as what that 70 year old had when they were coming out. They’ll be replaced by a grunt who will spend their career pushing glass hard for low pay, so somebody else can get a bigger bonus check. That’s the scam.

The travel RNs I mentioned are making more than a lot of younger pathologists (which is quite pathetic) but they most certainly are not making more than the orthopedists, urologists, radiologists etc.. so yes .. that is specifically an indictment of how pathologists are being treated in the workforce.

I understand it is upsetting to be told you’ve made a big mistake with your career.. I made the same mistake and now I am stuck. I’ll be stuck in this purgatory until I retire or until I die. Whichever comes first. The good news for you is, if you are a resident, it isn’t too late for you to get out. Even if you stay in medicine, there are options that are a lot better, where you won’t have to spend your career being an indentured servant. My advice is to accept reality and get the hell out while you can.

You sound disgruntled. Actually, you ARE disgruntled. Perhaps you should hold a mirror to yourself before blaming things on the "fat cats" who are apparently raking in all of the money. You have an advanced degree and experience, so do something meaningful with it instead of publishing a sob story about how RNs are making $$$. We live in extraordinary times and if you can't find a way to leverage your expertise in the field that you trained for so many years in... then I don't know what to tell you.

 

[Drifter76]

You sound disgruntled. Actually, you ARE disgruntled. Perhaps you should hold a mirror to yourself before blaming things on the "fat cats" who are apparently raking in all of the money. You have an advanced degree and experience, so do something meaningful with it instead of publishing a sob story about how RNs are making $$$. We live in extraordinary times and if you can't find a way to leverage your expertise in the field that you trained for so many years in... then I don't know what to tell you.

You’re damned right I am. If you are in this field and you aren’t disgruntled then you are clueless.. and if you don’t see a problem with fully employed, board certified physician specialists being compensated at a lower rate than RNs then you are truly clueless.
I’m not asking you to tell me anything. I’m the one doing the telling here, and I’m telling people to stay the hell away from this field and giving them the specific reasons why they should do so. The ones who don’t like it may, in fact, be part of the problem.

 

[cmz]

You’re damned right I am. If you are in this field and you aren’t disgruntled then you are clueless.. and if you don’t see a problem with fully employed, board certified physician specialists being compensated at a lower rate than RNs then you are truly clueless.
I’m not asking you to tell me anything. I’m the one doing the telling here, and I’m telling people to stay the hell away from this field and giving them the specific reasons why they should do so. The ones who don’t like it may, in fact, be part of the problem.

Quit and become an RN. That pathway is apparently a lot easier than the one you paved for yourself.

I am pretty sure I have a good idea about what's going on with our industry and medicine in general. If you're being paid less than an RN, there's more to the story. You "telling it how it is" is extremely narrow and short-sighted on your part. Why are you limiting your comments to just pathology? I hope you're thinking on a grander scale.

 

[Drifter76]

Quit and become an RN. That pathway is apparently a lot easier than the one you paved for yourself.

If you can tell me where to go, I suppose I can also tell you.. where you can go?

 

[Drifter76]

I am pretty sure I have a good idea about what's going on with our industry and medicine in general.

I am pretty sure you either… 1. Have no idea what is going on with our industry.. or 2. Know exactly what is going on and have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo. Which is it?

 

[Drifter76]

If you're being paid less than an RN, there's more to the story. You "telling it how it is" is extremely narrow and short-sighted on your part. Why are you limiting your comments to just pathology? I hope you're thinking on a grander scale.

I’m not being paid less than the RNs mentioned (not quite), but plenty of other pathologists are. There is more to the story, and multiple people on this board are telling that story so others will know the truth about this field. My “telling it like it is” is certainly an inconvenient truth for some. That is obvious from some of the responses. My testament is most pertinent to pathology because that is what I do.

 

[deleted314957]

Regarding job availability, retirement and paths working “ into their 80’s”. Being 70 and having retired at 62, I have some thoughts. When I was in a large PP group with 13 equity partners you lost your seat on the board of directors( all partners were on the BOD). Bylaws were such that only partners could be on the BOD. Hence, if you stayed on after 65 the financial disincentives were huge. No more bonuses of 500k/yr and no “ seat at the table”.
No one hung around. Please note that no one was/could be fired due to age alone. They just could not be a partner after they turned 65.
In general, outside of this experience, I believe the folks that are allowed to stay in a working capacity till age 80 do so because either: 1) Their home life is s****y 2) they have not developed any outside interests/hobbies and fear boredom or death 3) financially, they must work. When you have done the 2x divorce thing, bought second homes in the mountains or on the ocean, bought a plane or large boat, or invested foolishly ( usually speculating or using fear or greed as your investment managers) these folks are stuck.

I have not seen financially successful paths with a happy home and something to do work into their 80’s. However, as always, there must be exceptions.

 

[MetroPath]

The ones working into their 70s got in on the ground floor and are often the exploiters (the ones making all the money while others do a disproportionate amount of the work) while the new people coming in are the ones being exploited. Big difference there…. When one of these fat cat 70 year old partners retires, they usually aren’t replaced by a newbie who is going to have the same career opportunities and career trajectory as what that 70 year old had when they were coming out. They’ll be replaced by a grunt who will spend their career pushing glass hard for low pay, so somebody else can get a bigger bonus check. That’s the scam.

The travel RNs I mentioned are making more than a lot of younger pathologists (which is quite pathetic) but they most certainly are not making more than the orthopedists, urologists, radiologists etc.. so yes .. that is specifically an indictment of how pathologists are being treated in the workforce.

I understand it is upsetting to be told you’ve made a big mistake with your career.. I made the same mistake and now I am stuck. I’ll be stuck in this purgatory until I retire or until I die. Whichever comes first. The good news for you is, if you are a resident, it isn’t too late for you to get out. Even if you stay in medicine, there are options that are a lot better, where you won’t have to spend your career being an indentured servant. My advice is to accept reality and get the hell out while you can.

Although I haven’t read all of your posts, I disagree with this. You can still be a happy and a successful pathologist in this field. There are plenty out there.

If you are able to join a good cohesive group that treats you fairly and respectfully, you can succeed and be happy at the same time.

I do agree there are too many programs pumping out pathologists, leaving some trainees no choice but to move away from saturated cities in search of a job.

Hopefully, the uptick in jobs is not just a temporary one due to pathologists retiring from Covid.

 

[CM1850UV]

I, for one, in my second post on the SDN, would like to say that I love my job and where I do it. Many preceding posts suggest that many of you were at the rong place at the rong time and are stuck there somehow, and this makes me sad. Thanks to everyone for posting! I am in constant intel-gathering mode when it comes to the field and practice.

 

[deleted314957]

I, for one, in my second post on the SDN, would like to say that I love my job and where I do it. Many preceding posts suggest that many of you were at the rong place at the rong time and are stuck there somehow, and this makes me sad. Thanks to everyone for posting! I am in constant intel-gathering mode when it comes to the field and practice.

That’s what so much of life is- the wrong place at the wrong time. To that I would add unrealistic expectations and feeling that one has paid their dues at the end of their residency/ fellowship(s).

 

[Zarniwoop]

That’s what so much of life is- the wrong place at the wrong time. To that I would add unrealistic expectations and feeling that one has paid their dues at the end of their residency/ fellowship(s).

You pay your dues in high school to get into college, then college for medical school, then medical school for residency, and then residency for a job. It goes on and on.
When is the reward phase? A big grin in the coffin? I'm feeling upbeat for 2022!

 

[deleted314957]

You pay your dues in high school to get into college, then college for medical school, then medical school for residency, and then residency for a job. It goes on and on.
When is the reward phase? A big grin in the coffin? I'm feeling upbeat for 2022!

My reward phase was when I became an equity owner/partner and medical director about 30 years ago. The real fun began after retirement. Now I do as I please whenever I want.

Be patient.

 

[bronx43]

Actually, I’m not. There’s a reason why mid levels with just an undergrad degree and a couple years of PA school under their belt can do 90 percent of what the average PCP can do.
Granted, there’s other types of (social) bs that PCPs have to deal with that we don’t, just like in other direct patient care specialties.

What does the degree needed or not needed have anything to do with the stress of a job? This is a complete non-sequitur.

 

[Spikebd]

If you’re stuck in medicine pathology is better than working in the covid wards/clinics. We may have histotech or cyto tech staffing issues, but at least we don’t have angry impatient patients to deal with (if you’re in surg path)

 

[CM1850UV]

You pay your dues in high school to get into college, then college for medical school, then medical school for residency, and then residency for a job. It goes on and on.
When is the reward phase? A big grin in the coffin? I'm feeling upbeat for 2022!

I understand what you are asking. I guess I am old-fashioned when it comes to the reward phase. Firstly, I know it is not instantaneous after the boards and fellowship. Maybe because I started in medicine and pathology relatively late in life? Secondly, I enjoy the daily reminders I receive that I am continuously learning my craft and how to be helpful, as well as earning my place among all of us. This will be the source of my grin in my coffin. Others I know, in medicine and in other fields, will not be grinning, and I cannot do much about that.

 

[LADoc00]

Pathology is the Mexico City of specialties, very much a world of have and have nots. Beautiful mansions and hacienda near hovels and favelas.

There are folks making $150,000 a year and folks making $10,000,000+ a year.