Is post-bacc pre-med necessary?

[LA_CPA]

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Hello,

I am currently a CPA and am deeply considering making the transition into medicine. It has always been my passion since I was a kid, and that passion has obviously not faded away. After completing my undergrad and graduate degrees in Accountancy (4.00 and 3.77 GPA respectively), I am wondering if the post-bac program is required for a "career-changer" like myself? It seems the post-bac program is required for a "career-changer" in order to obtain the required knowledge to do well on the MCAT, but I just want to make sure that is the right direction in order to avoid additional sunk costs/time.

Any advice, tips, suggestions, and the like are welcomed by anyone that has been through this process before. Thank you in advance for your time!

- R

 

[absence409]

Do you have the pre-req's required for medical school done? If not, you'll have to do those at least which makes a post-bac "required" for you. (Pre-reqs need to be done or you won't be considered for admission)

 

[Eccesignum]

There are certain classes which are required for entry into MD and DO programs. For most schools these tend to be Bio I/II, Gen Chem I/II, Organic Chem I (sometimes II), Biochem, Physics I/II (all with labs), 1-2 semesters of English, a semester of psych, and a semester of sociology.

Schools may have slightly different requirements from one to the next, and pre-reqs for MD schools can be checked using the online MSAR (DO schools don't have a centralized thing like this, but you can browse websites to see their pre-req lists). Unless applying for a school that doesn't have a strict list of required courses (and those do still expect certain competency with the material), that's about what to expect.

"Post-bacc" just refers to classes taken after one already has a bachelor's degree (in anything). Post-bacc time let people who already have degrees go back and take those courses without dealing with getting a second degree. There are both formal post-baccs, which are programs that plan out your classes for you and occasionally feature perks like increased likelihood of interview at their med school if one passes with certain marks. There's also the option of an informal post-bacc, which is just you signing up for classes at your local university at your leisure.

 

[LA_CPA]

Do you have the pre-req's required for medical school done? If not, you'll have to do those at least which makes a post-bac "required" for you. (Pre-reqs need to be done or you won't be considered for admission)

Hi Absence409,

Firstly, I want to say thanks for your input! Secondly, I do not have the pre-reqs completed for any particular med school, which I know are required prior to being accepted into a med school program. I suppose I should've posed the question asking if post-bac programs are required to complete or does it make sense to take the courses "a la carte?" I am looking to be as efficient/effective as possible in order to save time and money. Thanks again!

-R

 

[etp123]

if post-bac programs are required to complete or does it make sense to take the courses "a la carte?"

No, you don't have to do a formal, structured post-bac program. Some of them have the benefits of an already established curriculum, support, etc but if you don't care about that then you absolutely can just take courses a la carte. The point is you just need undergrad-level courses from accredited institutions. Best of luck!

 

[LA_CPA]

There are certain classes which are required for entry into MD and DO programs. For most schools these tend to be Bio I/II, Gen Chem I/II, Organic Chem I (sometimes II), Biochem, Physics I/II (all with labs), 1-2 semesters of English, a semester of psych, and a semester of sociology.

Schools may have slightly different requirements from one to the next, and pre-reqs for MD schools can be checked using the online MSAR (DO schools don't have a centralized thing like this, but you can browse websites to see their pre-req lists). Unless applying for a school that doesn't have a strict list of required courses (and those do still expect certain competency with the material), that's about what to expect.

"Post-bacc" just refers to classes taken after one already has a bachelor's degree (in anything). Post-bacc time let people who already have degrees go back and take those courses without dealing with getting a second degree. There are both formal post-baccs, which are programs that plan out your classes for you and occasionally feature perks like increased likelihood of interview at their med school if one passes with certain marks. There's also the option of an informal post-bacc, which is just you signing up for classes at your local university at your leisure.

Hi Eccesignum,

Thank you for your reply - I completely understand your explanation. To be transparent, I am interested in the UCLA Extension Post-Bacc Pre-Med program which consists of 20 courses (https://www.uclaextension.edu/preMedCert/Pages/studies.aspx) focused on chemistry, biochemistry, life sciences, mathematics, statistics, and physics. However, what prompted me to begin inquiring on SDN is that when looking at my first school of interest found on the MSAR (U of A), I noticed that their admission requirements only include 11 courses - 5 of which are in behavioral sciences, English, and humanities (not included in UCLA's post-bac program). With this said, would your opinion be that these 5 required courses would need to be taken in addition to the post-bac program if I decided on applying to U of A?

As you mentioned, I suppose I would need to consider what the requirements are for each med school I am considering, and then determine if it makes sense to complete the post-bac program or take courses individually.

 

[LA_CPA]

No, you don't have to do a formal, structured post-bac program. Some of them have the benefits of an already established curriculum, support, etc but if you don't care about that then you absolutely can just take courses a la carte. The point is you just need undergrad-level courses from accredited institutions. Best of luck!

Hi Ept123,

Okay great - this is what I was gathering from researching a bit more, and from what you and others have posted so far. It may make more sense to take courses a la carte than a structured program since various medical schools seem to require slightly different courses which may need to be taken in addition to the post-bac program that I am interested in. Thanks for your input!

 

[Eccesignum]

Hi Eccesignum,

Thank you for your reply - I completely understand your explanation. To be transparent, I am interested in the UCLA Extension Post-Bacc Pre-Med program which consists of 20 courses (https://www.uclaextension.edu/preMedCert/Pages/studies.aspx) focused on chemistry, biochemistry, life sciences, mathematics, statistics, and physics. However, what prompted me to begin inquiring on SDN is that when looking at my first school of interest found on the MSAR (U of A), I noticed that their admission requirements only include 11 courses - 5 of which are in behavioral sciences, English, and humanities (not included in UCLA's post-bac program). With this said, would your opinion be that these 5 required courses would need to be taken in addition to the post-bac program if I decided on applying to U of A?

As you mentioned, I suppose I would need to consider what the requirements are for each med school I am considering, and then determine if it makes sense to complete the post-bac program or take courses individually.

This is the problem with formal post-baccs (besides the fact that they tend to be expensive). They have a set curriculum, which may or may not include everything you need. The plus side being that some universities give priority to degree-seeking students, leaving a la carte-ers struggling to get into classes -- especially lower-level courses that all the freshmen snatch up.

That said, you'll (or at least I certainly hope you will) be applying to more than U of A. My advice is get the MSAR and browse some schools that you're interested in. Make notes on their pre-reqs. See what trajectory you can do that encompasses what you need. Then decide whether it's in your best interest to do a structured post-bacc or do it a la carte (as most of us do).

 

[LA_CPA]

This is the problem with formal post-baccs (besides the fact that they tend to be expensive). They have a set curriculum, which may or may not include everything you need. The plus side being that some universities give priority to degree-seeking students, leaving a la carte-ers struggling to get into classes -- especially lower-level courses that all the freshmen snatch up.

That said, you'll (or at least I certainly hope you will) be applying to more than U of A. My advice is get the MSAR and browse some schools that you're interested in. Make notes on their pre-reqs. See what trajectory you can do that encompasses what you need. Then decide whether it's in your best interest to do a structured post-bacc or do it a la carte (as most of us do).

I appreciate this response, particularly the comment that most med students did it via a la carte. I have already registered for the MSAR earlier today and have begun my research on which schools I am interested in and their respective requirements. Thank you once again!

 

[absence409]

Hi Absence409,

Firstly, I want to say thanks for your input! Secondly, I do not have the pre-reqs completed for any particular med school, which I know are required prior to being accepted into a med school program. I suppose I should've posed the question asking if post-bac programs are required to complete or does it make sense to take the courses "a la carte?" I am looking to be as efficient/effective as possible in order to save time and money. Thanks again!

-R

Looks like everyone has already touched on it! I personally did it the a la carte route 🙂. It was definitely much cheaper.

 

[etp123]

I am interested in the UCLA Extension Post-Bacc Pre-Med program which consists of 20 courses (https://www.uclaextension.edu/preMedCert/Pages/studies.aspx)

I've taken classes via UCLA extension. Generally all the professors I've had were very knowledgeable and great, would definitely recommend. But a word of caution: they only meet once or twice a week for several hours, and in that timespan they cover a lot of topics very fast. For someone without a background in biology it may be difficult to follow along, according to some of my non-trad classmates. Regularly as an undergrad you get the material more spaced out and described in further detail, but through UCLA extension it's all jam-packed into a single block. Then you might have to do further self-study after lecture to flesh out little details like all the different terms/methods you haven't heard before.

Of course, YMMV so not saying you will be having any trouble. Judging from your GPAs I think you'll be just fine 🙂 but letting you know that you may hit the ground running.

 

[LA_CPA]

I've taken classes via UCLA extension. Generally all the professors I've had were very knowledgeable and great, would definitely recommend. But a word of caution: they only meet once or twice a week for several hours, and in that timespan they cover a lot of topics very fast. For someone without a background in biology it may be difficult to follow along, according to some of my non-trad classmates. Regularly as an undergrad you get the material more spaced out and described in further detail, but through UCLA extension it's all jam-packed into a single block. Then you might have to do further self-study after lecture to flesh out little details like all the different terms/methods you haven't heard before.

Of course, YMMV so not saying you will be having any trouble. Judging from your GPAs I think you'll be just fine 🙂 but letting you know that you may hit the ground running.

Etp123 - thanks for the heads up as any bit of information helps. Excuse my ignorance, but I have a question for you or anyone else that reads this response. In reference to your comment about taking these courses regularly in undergrad, if I decided not to do the UCLA extension program and take them a la carte, they would then be considered the "regular undergrad" courses with normal material coverage, etc., correct? But going a la carte means I'm battling with freshman/sophomores, etc. to get enrolled in the course....hmm.

And thanks for the comment regarding my GPAs - I worked hard for them haha. Also, prior to jumping into accounting, I was on a waiting list to enter the registered nursing program at the community college I attended so I have some knowledge in biology thankfully! Maybe the brisk pace of the extension program wouldn't be so difficult with that said.

 

[DrMikeP]

Hello,

I am currently a CPA and am deeply considering making the transition into medicine. It has always been my passion since I was a kid, and that passion has obviously not faded away. After completing my undergrad and graduate degrees in Accountancy (4.00 and 3.77 GPA respectively), I am wondering if the post-bac program is required for a "career-changer" like myself? It seems the post-bac program is required for a "career-changer" in order to obtain the required knowledge to do well on the MCAT, but I just want to make sure that is the right direction in order to avoid additional sunk costs/time.

Any advice, tips, suggestions, and the like are welcomed by anyone that has been through this process before. Thank you in advance for your time!

- R

You can do a formal or informal postbac. You could just take the classes as a nondegree seeking student or enroll in a second bachelors in bio (or whatever) degree and get them as part of the degree and then it would be up to you as to whether or not you'd apply prior to applying to med school. Either way, you must get the required courses. Do some reading on SDN to decide what route is best to get those. I went the second BS route, as that was easiest for me, as it gave me priority registration and such. I didn't finish it as I got accepted, but if not would have finished it. Most colleges/universities are ok with that.

 

[Seattle Mariners Fan]

Did a lot of research and: formal postbacs are generally a waste of money.

Some more so than others.

My personal favorite is Columbia at excess $100k. You take a 3.8 from a LAC with a 512 over a Columbia postbac with a 3.6 and a 508.

 

[Dullhead]

Are you targeting only one med school (U of A)? This could be a risky strategy. I was surprised to see that the UCLA postbacc is open to everyone. Typically, CA postbaccs at public institutions tend to be targeted towards URM or disadvantaged. There are only a few I know open to everyone - Cal State San Marcos being one. There's private ones too - USC has one. The big disadvantage with a la carte and CA publics is that they are all impacted programs. As someone with an undergraduate degree, you will have dead last registration priority and this could stretch your timeline. Something to consider. The price, at 16K tuition for 12 classes seemed reasonable to me, compared to say, 60K for 9 classes at USC's postbacc. The other thing to ask UCLA would be if you could enter the program and take only the classes you want to - how that affects things. You would not get the certificate, but do you need that anyway?

Website says: "UCLA Extension also offers a number of other XL courses in the sciences, as well as humanities and social science classes that may be used as electives". Maybe ask about replacing the core requirements with electives if you don't need some of the cores. But if you're planning on applying beyond just U of A, I don't see how you'll be able to skip the cores. Bio/Chem/Org/Phy I and II each, and Biochem either as a pre-req or a replacement for Org II. That's 8-9. Maybe you can replace the other 3 with humanities electives, leaving you two other courses that you could a la carte. Don't know for sure, but humanities and social sciences should be not impacted - not like sciences anyway.

 

[etp123]

Etp123 - thanks for the heads up as any bit of information helps. Excuse my ignorance, but I have a question for you or anyone else that reads this response. In reference to your comment about taking these courses regularly in undergrad, if I decided not to do the UCLA extension program and take them a la carte, they would then be considered the "regular undergrad" courses with normal material coverage, etc., correct? But going a la carte means I'm battling with freshman/sophomores, etc. to get enrolled in the course....hmm.

Yes. Even if you've graduated and you take enroll a la carte for classes on the main campus with the frosh soph kids, you're still an adult taking undergrad-level classes because that class has been specifically listed to cover the material at an undergrad level. For instance, if you've got your PhD in some fancy science then took an intro bio class, well you're going to still get credit for it as an intro bio class. Your not being an undergrad doesn't change what type of credit that class awards.

Any courses that are listed by the accredited instution as giving undergrad credit are bonafide "regular undergrad" courses. With UCLA ext, 90%+ of your classmates will be nontrads and it's never much of an issue enrolling for the classes you want. Note you can take UCLA extension classes a la carte also and don't have to be enrolled in or complete their certificate program to take their classes. If you wish to enroll in classes with the main campus, yes you will have bottom-tier priority so it will be harder to guarantee a seat especially if it's an impacted intro science course.

 

[etp123]

I was surprised to see that the UCLA postbacc is open to everyone. Typically, CA postbaccs at public institutions tend to be targeted towards URM or disadvantaged.

You're correct that formal UC postbacs target mostly URM or disadvantaged. You're thinking of the UC consortium postbacs. Those are formal structured programs hence the selectivity. The UCLA extension one is a certificate program meaning "take at least 12 classes from this available and we'll hand you a certificate verifying you took and passed those premed prereqs". Hence it's open and just offers classes to whoever needs them. No specialized advising, opportunities, etc.

 

[LA_CPA]

Are you targeting only one med school (U of A)? This could be a risky strategy. I was surprised to see that the UCLA postbacc is open to everyone. Typically, CA postbaccs at public institutions tend to be targeted towards URM or disadvantaged. There are only a few I know open to everyone - Cal State San Marcos being one. There's private ones too - USC has one. The big disadvantage with a la carte and CA publics is that they are all impacted programs. As someone with an undergraduate degree, you will have dead last registration priority and this could stretch your timeline. Something to consider. The price, at 16K tuition for 12 classes seemed reasonable to me, compared to say, 60K for 9 classes at USC's postbacc. The other thing to ask UCLA would be if you could enter the program and take only the classes you want to - how that affects things. You would not get the certificate, but do you need that anyway?

Website says: "UCLA Extension also offers a number of other XL courses in the sciences, as well as humanities and social science classes that may be used as electives". Maybe ask about replacing the core requirements with electives if you don't need some of the cores. But if you're planning on applying beyond just U of A, I don't see how you'll be able to skip the cores. Bio/Chem/Org/Phy I and II each, and Biochem either as a pre-req or a replacement for Org II. That's 8-9. Maybe you can replace the other 3 with humanities electives, leaving you two other courses that you could a la carte. Don't know for sure, but humanities and social sciences should be not impacted - not like sciences anyway.

Hello Dullhead,

Haha, no, I am not only targeting U of A since that would indeed be a very risky strategy. However, due to my circumstances, I did plan on only targeting SoCal and UofA med schools which I know is not the greatest either. And I agree that CA publics are extremely impacted programs which would extend my timeline and that is unfortunate because I believe that would be the least costly way of doing this.

Thanks for the questions that I can pose to the coordinator - I think the UCLA program would be a great choice if I could substitute some of the core classes.

 

[RedBear3005]

Did a lot of research and: formal postbacs are generally a waste of money.

Some more so than others.

My personal favorite is Columbia at excess $100k. You take a 3.8 from a LAC with a 512 over a Columbia postbac with a 3.6 and a 508.

Ummm that would make sense. You changed two variables, one of which was the MCAT. For your argument to work, you would need to argue that with the same MCAT, someone from a LAC with a 3.8 gets in over someone with a 3.6 from Columbia. While I certainly appreciate the intent behind your argument (don't waste money on a post-bacc), and agree with it, on face, I think you're wrong. I think the kid from Columbia gets just as many sniffs.

OP, take the classes at a four year university as cheaply as possible. You'll have plenty of time to spend money on the MD.

 

[LA_CPA]

Ummm that would make sense. You changed two variables, one of which was the MCAT. For your argument to work, you would need to argue that with the same MCAT, someone from a LAC with a 3.8 gets in over someone with a 3.6 from Columbia. While I certainly appreciate the intent behind your argument (don't waste money on a post-bacc), and agree with it, on face, I think you're wrong. I think the kid from Columbia gets just as many sniffs.

OP, take the classes at a four year university as cheaply as possible. You'll have plenty of time to spend money on the MD.

WGSgrad - thanks for your input. Firstly, excuse my ignorance, but what is an "LAC?" Secondly, if I were to take the pre-requisites classes "traditionally" at a 4-year (applying for a second BS), this would mean that I would be in the "rat race" with freshmen/sophomores to register for the classes, right? If you're familiar with CA public universities, that would prove to be a hell of a race. So I assume it is a question of me having the tolerance to become enrolled in required courses or pay more and go into a Post-Bacc?

 

[RedBear3005]

WGSgrad - thanks for your input. Firstly, excuse my ignorance, but what is an "LAC?" Secondly, if I were to take the pre-requisites classes "traditionally" at a 4-year (applying for a second BS), this would mean that I would be in the "rat race" with freshmen/sophomores to register for the classes, right? If you're familiar with CA public universities, that would prove to be a hell of a race. So I assume it is a question of me having the tolerance to become enrolled in required courses or pay more and go into a Post-Bacc?

1) LAC - Liberal Arts College
2) My only advice here was to do it as cheaply as possible. However, you seem to be suggesting that it will be so difficult to get enrolled as a non-degree student that you might as well enroll in a more expensive post-bacc program to ensure you get the classes you need in the time frame you need to take them. If if is that difficult to get enrolled as a non-degree student in California that it is going to push your timeline off AND the additional expense to you is worth it, then go for it. I certainly don't have any objections.

Again, my suggestion was to just do it as cheaply as possible. If you are a California resident, then chances are you are going to need to apply to some out of state schools to round out your list of applications and very well may have to take an out of state acceptance with the associated out of state tuition, which is why my advice was just to save money if you can.

Ultimately, only you know if the additional cost is worth it given the difficulty you presume you will have enrolling in the necessary prerequisites as a non-degree student.

Best of luck to you.

 

[Dullhead]

You're correct that formal UC postbacs target mostly URM or disadvantaged. You're thinking of the UC consortium postbacs. Those are formal structured programs hence the selectivity. The UCLA extension one is a certificate program meaning "take at least 12 classes from this available and we'll hand you a certificate verifying you took and passed those premed prereqs". Hence it's open and just offers classes to whoever needs them. No specialized advising, opportunities, etc.

Thanks for the clarification. You are correct.

Secondly, if I were to take the pre-requisites classes "traditionally" at a 4-year (applying for a second BS)...

Second bachelor's degrees are very difficult in CA publics. UCLA does not consider applicants at all (link below). So it's a la carte (lowest registration priority or crash), post bacc, or move to a UC location that allows a repeat undergrad. Even those that allow a second BS degree, I wonder how many students per year in this category they enroll. Can't be very many.
http://www.csumentor.edu/planning/transfer/second_bachelors.asp
http://admission.universityofcalifo...ansfer/helping-students/second-baccalaureate/

 

[DrMikeP]

OP The issue is you need the courses. Find the cheapest and easiest way to get them! I'd start with calling nearby schools and looking them up online vs debating it endlessly on SDN. If the only way to do that is a formal postbac then do it if you can do it just taking courses where ever do it.

The goal is becoming a physician and right now is time for getting your application in and getting registered for the fall.

Make whatever happen, but don't discount anything until a college/univ says no.


Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

 

[LA_CPA]

1) LAC - Liberal Arts College
2) My only advice here was to do it as cheaply as possible. However, you seem to be suggesting that it will be so difficult to get enrolled as a non-degree student that you might as well enroll in a more expensive post-bacc program to ensure you get the classes you need in the time frame you need to take them. If if is that difficult to get enrolled as a non-degree student in California that it is going to push your timeline off AND the additional expense to you is worth it, then go for it. I certainly don't have any objections.

Again, my suggestion was to just do it as cheaply as possible. If you are a California resident, then chances are you are going to need to apply to some out of state schools to round out your list of applications and very well may have to take an out of state acceptance with the associated out of state tuition, which is why my advice was just to save money if you can.

Ultimately, only you know if the additional cost is worth it given the difficulty you presume you will have enrolling in the necessary prerequisites as a non-degree student.

Best of luck to you.

Thanks for your advice WGSgrad. I didn't mean to come off as wanting to completely disregard all other options besides a Post-Bacc because that is not the case at all. I think DrMikeP has summed it up well below - just call these schools and figure out the cheapest way. Thanks again!

 

[LA_CPA]

Thanks for the clarification. You are correct.



Second bachelor's degrees are very difficult in CA publics. UCLA does not consider applicants at all (link below). So it's a la carte (lowest registration priority or crash), post bacc, or move to a UC location that allows a repeat undergrad. Even those that allow a second BS degree, I wonder how many students per year in this category they enroll. Can't be very many.
http://www.csumentor.edu/planning/transfer/second_bachelors.asp
http://admission.universityofcalifo...ansfer/helping-students/second-baccalaureate/

Dullhead, thanks for finding these links as they were helpful. Have a great day!

 

[LA_CPA]

OP The issue is you need the courses. Find the cheapest and easiest way to get them! I'd start with calling nearby schools and looking them up online vs debating it endlessly on SDN. If the only way to do that is a formal postbac then do it if you can do it just taking courses where ever do it.

The goal is becoming a physician and right now is time for getting your application in and getting registered for the fall.

Make whatever happen, but don't discount anything until a college/univ says no.


Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

Dr MikeP, I agree with this statement 100%! Thanks for your advice, and have a great day.

 

[DrMikeP]

Dr MikeP, I agree with this statement 100%! Thanks for your advice, and have a great day.

You as well and if I can go back and make it happen you can, so don't let college advisors talk you out of it or tell you that you will never make it. Lots of them try.

Once you get a term or two of core classes behind you (bio, chem, physics) with mostly A's then get on here and plan out shadowing, extra curriculars, etc so you'll be the best candidate possible.

Best of luck!

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

 

[LA_CPA]

You as well and if I can go back and make it happen you can, so don't let college advisors talk you out of it or tell you that you will never make it. Lots of them try.

Once you get a term or two of core classes behind you (bio, chem, physics) with mostly A's then get on here and plan out shadowing, extra curriculars, etc so you'll be the best candidate possible.

Best of luck!

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

I agree - I only get more determined when others try discouraging from doing something I know I truly want to do! Glad to hear you were able to overcome a similar path. I am also glad to hear that SDN is a resource where I can obtain good leads on shadowing and volunteering opportunities. I am currently attempting to get in some volunteer time with a couple of places here in the Denver area, but I can only do admin stuff at this point since I lack in the obvious for now.