Is PsyD a mistake?

[Psychedforlife]

I was just accepted into an APA accreditated Psy.D program, my goal since i took my first psychology class in high school. As proud of myself that i am, i am starting to question the worth of obtaining a Psy.D. While I am not 100% sure what my dream career would look like, I see myself working with kids on the autism spectrum on their anxiety. (I’ve worked in ABA therapy and see that while it helps them adjust their behaviors, it leaves them with alot of anxiety). While that seems to fit best with my skills and experience, i can see myself working in a range of individuals, preferably in a private practice.

What are the benefits of a Psy.D over a masters when aiming for a private practice? Please help!

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[Justanothergrad]

The consensus on this forum is very clear about psyD programs. Fit doesn't matter if you accumulate a large (or even modest) debt load. The same questions that are asked/discussed are the most important ones: what is the debt load, what is the match rate, is it a for profit school, etc. APA accreditation is not sufficient for a program to be good enough to plan a career on and these other factors are what matters first. Your population of choice / career goals are (and always should be) second to these because of how they will impact you for the next 10-20 years.

Doctoral degree versus master's degree will vary by state. In general you will have more flexibility with a doctoral degree because of scope of practice but you will not earn sufficiently more per hour in therapy based on insurance billing rates. You may also find it easier to get referrals from certain providers or to get on insurance boards of certain types, depending on the type of master's degree the state and the insurance board at that time

 

[Psychedforlife]

I would have $100k in loans to pay off after graduation.

But they have 100% match with internship placements, 82% being APA accreditited. The school seems very involved in assisting students in finding post doc positions as well.

So yes i would have debt, but if i am prepared to serve in my dream job, would it not be worh it?

The consensus on this forum is very clear about psyD programs. Fit doesn't matter if you accumulate a large (or even modest) debt load. The same questions that are asked/discussed are the most important ones: what is the debt load, what is the match rate, is it a for profit school, etc. APA accreditation is not sufficient for a program to be good enough to plan a career on and these other factors are what matters first. Your population of choice / career goals are (and always should be) second to these because of how they will impact you for the next 10-20 years.

Doctoral degree versus master's degree will vary by state. In general you will have more flexibility with a doctoral degree because of scope of practice but you will not earn sufficiently more per hour in therapy based on insurance billing rates. You may also find it easier to get referrals from certain providers or to get on insurance boards of certain types, depending on the type of master's degree the state and the insurance board at that time

 

[Justanothergrad]

I would have $100k in loans to pay off after graduation.

Not worth it.

But they have 100% match with internship placements, 82% being APA accreditited.

So 82%.

The school seems very involved in assisting students in finding post doc positions as well.

Internships will serve you better for this.

So yes i would have debt, but if i am prepared to serve in my dream job, would it not be worh it?

No. Either get a masters (LPC, MSW, or any that allows you to practice independently) or work in a lab and get into a program without the debt. A 100k debt will pull out at least 130k from you and that's roughly 12k a year of lost earnings for 10 years. You'll he better off working for 60k for an extra 5 years with no debt. 100k is a ton of money and will drain you for a long time.

 

[SouthpawPsych]

I was just accepted into an APA accreditated Psy.D program, my goal since i took my first psychology class in high school. As proud of myself that i am, i am starting to question the worth of obtaining a Psy.D. While I am not 100% sure what my dream career would look like, I see myself working with kids on the autism spectrum on their anxiety. (I’ve worked in ABA therapy and see that while it helps them adjust their behaviors, it leaves them with alot of anxiety). While that seems to fit best with my skills and experience, i can see myself working in a range of individuals, preferably in a private practice.

What are the benefits of a Psy.D over a masters when aiming for a private practice? Please help!

To start, congratulations on your acceptance! You should feel proud of your accomplishment. It also sounds like you have a good idea of a certain population you would like to work with and have interest in private practice. However, if you are aiming for private practice, you might be better off utilizing your resources to be licensed at the master's level to practice independently. Being in a PhD program, I was fortunate to receive funding and not accrue debt during the program. I definitely would have looked for other paths if I were to accrue 60k+ of debt over 5 years.

Also, to echo what Justanothergrad said, an 82% match rate for APA-accredited programs is the number you'll want to consider. Non-accredited internship programs make it extremely difficult for licensure in most (if not all) states. We do not discuss postdoc much at all in my program. However, it seems like strong internship programs help interns prepare for postdoc and post-graduation positions.

I believe your 'dream job' is still definitely within reach, and this PsyD program your considering is not your only path towards that dream job.

 

[psych.meout]

But they have 100% match with internship placements, 82% being APA accreditited.

Did faculty from this PsyD program couch their match rate in this manner?

 

[ClinicalABA]

I would have $100k in loans to pay off after graduation.

At 6.8%, that’s ~$1150 per month on a 10 year repayment, or ~$760 per month for 20 years. While median salary for a psychologist is ~75k, 25% make 58k or less. Plan on being in that lower range, at least starting out. Figure 30% of your income will go to taxes, insurance, etc., your looking at 25-30 percent of your monthly take home going to student loan debt. That is POTENTIALLY CRIPPLING levels of loan payment for decades! It will negatively impact where and how you live, what you drive, where/if you vacation, how you save for retirement, etc. Is it worth it? I make well above the median, and that level of student debt would be significant for me. Think long and hard and, most importantly, realistically before you go ahead with this.

 

[ClinicalABA]

While I am not 100% sure what my dream career would look like, I see myself working with kids on the autism spectrum on their anxiety.

In my agency, we would look to hire clinical social workers for this type of work.

(I’ve worked in ABA therapy and see that while it helps them adjust their behaviors, it leaves them with alot of anxiety)

It’s not the point of this thread, but there are many things wrong with this statement!

 

[PsychCaRIH]

I was just accepted into an APA accreditated Psy.D program, my goal since i took my first psychology class in high school. As proud of myself that i am, i am starting to question the worth of obtaining a Psy.D. While I am not 100% sure what my dream career would look like, I see myself working with kids on the autism spectrum on their anxiety. (I’ve worked in ABA therapy and see that while it helps them adjust their behaviors, it leaves them with alot of anxiety). While that seems to fit best with my skills and experience, i can see myself working in a range of individuals, preferably in a private practice.

What are the benefits of a Psy.D over a masters when aiming for a private practice? Please help!

I do not agree with the majority of folks about PsyDs on this forum, however if your end goal is private practice, or working in a facility with kids on the ASD spectrum, then there is not much benefit of a PsyD over a Master's degree. Facilities will hire MSWs for this kind of work and clients seeking a clinician in private practice don't really discriminate agains a Master's level clinician.

 

[WisNeuro]

At 6.8%, that’s ~$1150 per month on a 10 year repayment, or ~$760 per month for 20 years. While median salary for a psychologist is ~75k, 25% make 58k or less. Plan on being in that lower range, at least starting out. Figure 30% of your income will go to taxes, insurance, etc., your looking at 25-30 percent of your monthly take home going to student loan debt. That is POTENTIALLY CRIPPLING levels of loan payment for decades! It will negatively impact where and how you live, what you drive, where/if you vacation, how you save for retirement, etc. Is it worth it? I make well above the median, and that level of student debt would be significant for me. Think long and hard and, most importantly, realistically before you go ahead with this.

Also, no one is factoring in the increase in principal due to what I assume will be deferments during internship/postdoc. It will be substantially more than 100k.

 

[singasongofjoy]

I would have $100k in loans to pay off after graduation.

So yes i would have debt, but if i am prepared to serve in my dream job, would it not be worh it?

No, it wouldn't. Not at a starting psychologist's salary. Dream jobs are great and all, but there is also the rest of your life to consider as well. You can't be all about only your career forever and ever. You'll also have to consider retirement, quality of life (basics- like a reliable car, living in a safe neighborhood in house of decent quality, whether you want to have kids, putting away savings for inevitable unexpected life expenses that come up). You may start to resent your dream career if it means the rest of your quality of life is well behind all of your peers. Especially if you could have basically achieved your dream career with a master's degree and without all that debt strapping you down for a decade or more. If you have to wait 10 years after graduation to start contributing to retirement, you're going to have missed out on exponential progress towards retirement. Dream job or not, you can't count on being able to work FT until you are 70.

I don't agree that all PsyDs are immediately looked down on; depends on where the degree was from (there are relatively few ones that come to mind as especially good, but they exist). Some will most certainly stigmatize you and you should stay far away from those. But that is almost beside the point- the bigger question is whether you really need a doctorate degree. If really all you want to do is clinical work with folks with ASD, a masters is more than sufficient. I work in the ASD field and the doctoral level folks do way more diagnostics than therapy- masters' level folks are doing 90% of the therapy and psychologists are doing therapy basically on just the really complex cases with a lot of comorbidity or other psychosocial factors complicating things, or pitching in on interventions that are part of a larger research project.

 

[smalltownpsych]

Maybe. It depends. I have a lot of debt from my PsyD program, and I would rather not have it, of course, but I still have a pretty decent lifestyle. I have had to sacrifice in other areas such as being more geographically flexible and willing to live in a god forsaken part of the country. Was it a mistake? Depends on the day you ask. If I had to do it over again knowing what I know now...hmmm...I might have tried harder to go the fully funded route, but also not sure if they would have ever let me in regardless due to significant problems in my past.

 

[Psychedforlife]

Please explain!

It’s not the point of this thread, but there are many things wrong with this statement![/QUOTE]

 

[bcliff]

Please explain!

“a lot” is two words, and, to my knowledge, there is not an empirically substantiated link between receipt of ABA services and increases in anxiety (Admittedly not an area I’m super familiar with). There are funded, clinical psychology MA/MS programs that prepare students, in two years, for midlevel clinical practice and BCBA licensure that seem like a potentially good fit/alternative for you -- Many students from one such program that I’m familiar with go on to pursue PhDs in clinical psychology. PM me if you have any questions about these programs.

 

[Psychedforlife]

I just meant that we use all of our resources and take all of our data on measurable behaviors but spend little to no time on our clients emotional needs. ABA is incredibly useful, I didnt say that.

“a lot” is two words, and, to my knowledge, there is not an empirically substantiated link between receipt of ABA services and increases in anxiety (Admittedly not an area I’m super familiar with). There are funded, clinical psychology MA/MS programs that prepare students, in two years, for midlevel clinical practice and BCBA licensure that seem like a potentially good fit/alternative for you -- Many students from one such program that I’m familiar with go on to pursue PhDs in clinical psychology. PM me if you have any questions about these programs.

 

[smalltownpsych]

I am not an expert on ABA by any means, but isn't the standard treatment for anxiety typically behavioral? So it would seem to me that ABA could address anxiety as well.

 

[Justanothergrad]

As smalltownpsych mentioned, not only are behavioral strategies well suited to anxiety (some of the larger treatment effect sizes when looking at specific component comparisons), but also one of the assumptions in working with individuals who have autism is that control of the external environment/stimuli can help to reduce felt anxiety.

 

[bcliff]

“a lot” is two words, and, to my knowledge, there is not an empirically substantiated link between receipt of ABA services and increases in anxiety (Admittedly not an area I’m super familiar with). There are funded, clinical psychology MA/MS programs that prepare students, in two years, for midlevel clinical practice and BCBA licensure that seem like a potentially good fit/alternative for you -- Many students from one such program that I’m familiar with go on to pursue PhDs in clinical psychology. PM me if you have any questions about these programs.

When you described ABA as incredibly useful but leaving clients with a lot of anxiety, it made it sound as if the anxiety was a side-effect of ABA rather than a lingering piece of psychopathology still needing to be addressed. Smalltownpsych is correct in saying that a number of clinical applications of behavior analysis (think third wave behavior therapies) have strong support for their use in the treatment of anxiety disorders. If I were in your position, I would pursue one of the funded MA/MS clinical psychology/BCBA programs that I described previously and forego the $$$,$$$ in debt -- Earn your MA/MS, pursue licensure as a BCBA, reapply to funded PhD/PsyD programs if you find that you are unable to do the type of work that you’d like to do with just a masters degree. PM me if you’d like some leads in terms of programs to consider/apply to.

 

[PsychCaRIH]

Maybe. It depends. I have a lot of debt from my PsyD program, and I would rather not have it, of course, but I still have a pretty decent lifestyle. I have had to sacrifice in other areas such as being more geographically flexible and willing to live in a god forsaken part of the country. Was it a mistake? Depends on the day you ask. If I had to do it over again knowing what I know now...hmmm...I might have tried harder to go the fully funded route, but also not sure if they would have ever let me in regardless due to significant problems in my past.

I feel similarly. I went PsyD and I still got lots of accredited internship and postdoc interviews... I just accepted an accredited postdoc in the SF Bay Area. I have connections with a well-respected site from practicum where I have been invited to return post licensure. Starting salary for psychologists there is 100k, because it's in SF. I also have a private practice I'll be stepping back into...from connections I made in my practica. I don't regret my PsyD. Many of my cohort members went to VAs, hospitals, universities, etc. and will be completing postdocs at the same. I think it depends on what you want out of your experience and what you prioritize. I didn't go to a funded program I got into because I had to relocate and had an ill parent. I don't regret that.

 

[DynamicDidactic]

Just to be clear, its not the degree but the debt people are wary of. There are well funded PsyD programs that don't lead to prohibitive debt as there are PhD programs that lead to debt.

Additionally, anecdotally there is a bit of bias against PsyDs depending on the setting you are looking to work in.

Please make an informed decision, @ClinicalABA has given you an idea of the literal cost of the PsyD. Additionally, consider the years lost in training that delay general life goals (e.g., relationships, home ownership, family) and the stress of internship/postdoc that may require additional costs and moving.

 

[ClinicalABA]

Please explain!

It’s not the point of this thread, but there are many things wrong with this statement!

I think Briarcliff identified my main concern- e.g., the post hoc ergo proctor hoc implication. Your'e at a point in your career/educational development where you should start to take a more empirical view of what you observe, being more aware of some of the logical fallacies that can influence a non-empirical case-conceptualization. While I have thick skin and am not easily (or ever) offended, I'd venture to say that the BCBA supervisors on your past cases might be a little perturbed that you are labeling their interventions as the potential "cause" of anxiety. Maybe not what you meant, but it's how it came across. Also, good ABA should focus on more than just helping children "adjust their behaviors!"

I have also had the experience that many children who have made substantial progress with ABA services do demonstrate symptoms of an anxiety disorder. I'd also argue that good ABA services should seek to address/avoid/ameliorate many of these symptoms, particularly those that are directly related to characteristics of ASD (e.g., difficulties with social referencing and social self-monitoring; problems with social perspective-taking; negative feeedback from the social environment related characteristics/behaviors associated with ASD). Some of this can and should fall under the perview of the BCBA. However, much of the behavioral treatment of anxiety lies outside the training and skillset of the BCBA, and thus differently trained/credentialled clinicians can be a necessary part of the treatment team. As mentioned previously by myself and others, these clinicians are very often credentialled at the masters level. I also think that we all need to be mindful of automatically attributing any mental or behaivor health issues to the individuals ASD. There is a tendency to relate everything to the ASD and assume that it will all be addressed by the ASD specific therapy, and this may lead to the individual not getting the appropriate non-ASD specific therapy.

All that said, there is a huge (at least in my geographical area) need for doctoral level clinicians trained in the assessment and diagnosis of ASD, as well as the assessment of non-ASD "conditions" in the ASD population. I work primarily in Mass., where a diagnosis must be made by a licensed psychologist health services provder (which requires a doctoral degree) or an MD to qualify for specialized early intervention or insurance funded ABA services. This is different in, for example, CT, where a diagnosis from a licensed social worker will qualify a kiddo for birth-to-three services. mI have been filling in doing diangnosis for the CT branch of my company while theye were looking to hire additional social workers. You can bet they wanted to do this fast, as I'm much more expensive than a social worker. My organization is split about 50/50 between Ph.D.s and PsyDs. The PsyDs I work with appear well trained and I often look to them for assistance and guidance. Though they all seem to drive nicer cars than me, they do report a lot of student loan debt!

Best of Luck with your decision making. It's a great field to work in.

 

[ToneTone]

Congrats! Psyd student here. I agree the debt is insane, and not sure which school you matched to but if it’s the same one I go to and you’re solely borrowing it likely won’t be $100k at the end, will be much more. Looking back, I wished I went the funded route because I ended up finding an opportunity to do research and publish perhaps more than most of my classmates. I like my school and the people, but the area is far too expensive and saturated. If my partner wasn’t tied to this area for work (and made significantly more), we would have definitely moved. Furthermore, I’m honestly exhausted being this broke going through the program and I am not looking forward to being broke from debt in the future. Private practice can be a hustle, and if you are in a saturated area that can be a challenge with overhead costs.

 

[ToneTone]

Oh and furthermore, my school doesn’t have a perfect APA internship match rate either. From what I heard, they discouraged less competitive students apply to APA knowing it’d be difficult to land a spot, and the students, eager to graduate decided on APPIC and CAPIC route. I’ve heard they will no longer allow students starting from a specific cohort to apply to non APA, but not sure if that’s true.

 

[psy2019]

Congrats! Psyd student here. I agree the debt is insane, and not sure which school you matched to but if it’s the same one I go to and you’re solely borrowing it likely won’t be $100k at the end, will be much more. Looking back, I wished I went the funded route because I ended up finding an opportunity to do research and publish perhaps more than most of my classmates. I like my school and the people, but the area is far too expensive and saturated. If my partner wasn’t tied to this area for work (and made significantly more), we would have definitely moved. Furthermore, I’m honestly exhausted being this broke going through the program and I am not looking forward to being broke from debt in the future. Private practice can be a hustle, and if you are in a saturated area that can be a challenge with overhead costs.

First off, yes, congrats! I am also a PsyD student, and can agree with ToneTone that my debt is insane. I definitely wish I would have gone the funded route also, but was advised by my undergraduate institution to apply to non-funded programs due to my undergrads familiarity with the training offered. I feel I have received quality training, and was very fortunate to match at a competitive APA accredited, VA facility for my internship. I know that moving forward, the debt is going to be a challenge; my partner and I both will have quite a lot having gone through the same PsyD program. I wish you the best in making your decision as to what program "fits" best for you. If you have any questions, feel free to message me- I'm more than happy to be a resource.

 

[enduroevo]

@psy2019 , does it make the debt a lot more manageable if you stick with the VA for a while and do a loan repayment program? Not sure how they work exactly but I imagine the VA would be highly desirable for people who attended professional schools to offset debt?

 

[WisNeuro]

@psy2019 , does it make the debt a lot more manageable if you stick with the VA for a while and do a loan repayment program? Not sure how they work exactly but I imagine the VA would be highly desirable for people who attended professional schools to offset debt?

It can. Although I'd keep a close on the new budget measures that Congress is adopting from WH recs. Many of those recs have huge changes to loan repayment programs, and even eliminate some. Additionally, you are "stuck" in certain jobs. I have one friend in particular who absolutely hates where he works, but won't leave because he is several years into his repayment plan. And, even with the repayment plan, he still has put off several financially influenced life goals (buying a house, having children, maxing out retirement) due to the payments. Far too many people see the repayment programs as some sort of panacea. Before you make any huge financial decisions of tuition, sit down and really crunch the numbers. Most people are shocked when they are actually forced to do so, usually about 7 years too late to do anything about it.

 

[psych.meout]

It can. Although I'd keep a close on the new budget measures that Congress is adopting from WH recs. Many of those recs have huge changes to loan repayment programs, and even eliminate some. Additionally, you are "stuck" in certain jobs. I have one friend in particular who absolutely hates where he works, but won't leave because he is several years into his repayment plan. And, even with the repayment plan, he still has put off several financially influenced life goals (buying a house, having children, maxing out retirement) due to the payments. Far too many people see the repayment programs as some sort of panacea. Before you make any huge financial decisions of tuition, sit down and really crunch the numbers. Most people are shocked when they are actually forced to do so, usually about 7 years too late to do anything about it.

The worst part is betting on these programs still being available after you graduate. You never know what is going to happen over 5 to 7 years, so it would be quite unwise to bet your entire financial future on programs still being available over the course of multiple administrations.

 

[psy2019]

It can. Although I'd keep a close on the new budget measures that Congress is adopting from WH recs. Many of those recs have huge changes to loan repayment programs, and even eliminate some. Additionally, you are "stuck" in certain jobs. I have one friend in particular who absolutely hates where he works, but won't leave because he is several years into his repayment plan. And, even with the repayment plan, he still has put off several financially influenced life goals (buying a house, having children, maxing out retirement) due to the payments. Far too many people see the repayment programs as some sort of panacea. Before you make any huge financial decisions of tuition, sit down and really crunch the numbers. Most people are shocked when they are actually forced to do so, usually about 7 years too late to do anything about it.

I would agree. As long as the current loan repayment options stay in place, it definitely is a good option. But, it is possible this may change. I love the VA setting (I've done practicum placements in the VA), and plan on continuing to work in a VA post-licensure.
I won't discount that student loans likely will impact my future financial stability....It unfortunately is a fate that I took on, without knowing the true implications, when I applied for grad programs at age 20. Some life experience surrounding finances, and some financial guidance would have been incredibly beneficial, before I decided on what program was best for me...but, this is where I am now, and I can only move forward. My partner and I are both aware of the loan debt we have collectively as a couple, and know our lives may be on a different trajectory due to our financial situation.

 

[singasongofjoy]

@psy2019 , does it make the debt a lot more manageable if you stick with the VA for a while and do a loan repayment program? Not sure how they work exactly but I imagine the VA would be highly desirable for people who attended professional schools to offset debt?

Counting on these programs to stick around sounds to me about as risky as planning to count on social security and medicare to stick around when you get to retirement. Maybe you'll get lucky? But seems an awfully huge risk to take on.