Is reputation of postbacc institution important?

[surag]

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This is actually also on the nontrad forum and I just realized it probably shouldnt be there so admin can remove it...

I will currently be doing post bacc work at marshall school(not very well known but competent) for a year
and then plan on applying and doing 2 year SMP program at marshall.

The reason I chose marshall is because I am a WV resident and tuition for me is only 5k each semester and its close to home.

The postbacc year is structured with coursework for students with a strong science background already. it is only 2 courses each semester with teaching assistantships involved and research experience as well.

The next two years are class taken alongside the medical students at Marshall. (SMP program)

My question is, does it matter whether its marshall or drexel or georgetown SMP? Suppose I get a 4.0 all three years at marshall? Will it be appreciated even if its not as well known? Will adcoms think its a lesser school and that is why I did well?

Would I be better of doing my SMP at another school, georgetown, etc.?


Also, do you have any success stories of students who studied hard after college, did good work and got into top 10 schools? top 20 schools?

With three years of work and 4.0 GPA i can get my GPA up to a 3.0 from a 2.7


I nearly forgot to mention this: My aim on the second MCAT is to score a 40+...mainly because I'm pretty sure I can. I'm not sure how important or valuable an MCAT score past 35 is though... My first MCAT has since expired(2006 taken)

The reason why I ask about success stories and students getting into research intensive schools is because
1. if I probably won't and at this point I should be just happy if I get into medical school then I'll try and matriculate into marshall or WV after 1 or 2 years.
2. I am very interested in academic research as you can see from my work experience and plan on doing medical research than practicing medicine exclusively...and going to a medical school with a lot of research emphasis is very important from what I hear for this.


I would really like to get into a top 30 research medical school
and plan on matriculation when I turn 27.

My goal for EACH summer for the next 3 years is to do research in my home state at WVU(so i can live at home) as well as do a lot of high quality volunteering, clinical work:

1.Hospital volunteeering
2.reading or teaching older folk/children
3. work on public health issues(haven't figured it out yet but after reading atul gawande's recent new yorker article i have a few ideas)-compare rural healthcare in different areas of WV, study a particular disease effect in different areas, its prevalence,whether one area has a better grip on it than others and why etc.
4. write about medicine/health care for online magazine journals etc.-this is more of a pipe dream where if I improve my writing skills I may get something out of it.

Here's some information about who I am and what I've done so far:

Basically, I didn't do as well as I should have...after reading some of your and other people's posts I've realized that looking at the reasons why, no matter how legit(family issues etc.) is just not useful nor helpful in terms of medical school admissions.

I ended up with an overall GPA of 2.72. I did study at a good school(will not disclose for privacy reasons) that places its students at very good med schools every year. I also took almost all exclusive science courses, usually 4 or 5 each semester(only 3 courses total during fall senior year-my lowest).

My MCAT score: 37

14 Physical sciences
11 verbal
12 bio
S Writing

I helped assist physicians in India for a summer before college in rural areas.-pretty impactful stuff but i wont go into it as you've read a lot at this point already.

I've volunteered at a local hospital for 60 hours.

I have 1 year of research and work experience in the neurosurgery department studying tumors

1 summer of research experience working on G Protein receptors in the biochemistry department

1 semester of research on studying effects of blindness on astrocyte and glial reorganization

1 semester on neuortoxicity of certain chemicals in the environmental lab

2 months shadowing neurologist

month and a half shadowing psychiatrist

As of now I am still working in my neurosurgery lab I am 23 years as of now.

Disclaimer: If I ever mention the terms 'good' schools or poor schools or better or bad or any other adjectives that may come across as condescending I immediately apologize for not removing that kind of language when I proof read my post. I dont intend to inflame nor come across as crass/naive. Almost all medical schools are equal in teaching and in their quality of medical education. If I do use language that is inappropriate it is because of years of social molding towards such stereotyping. With all these medical school rankings, all the naivity that inevitably stems from our childhood to attain the 'highest' level schools, the pressure from parents, competition, etc. it is inevitable that we behave in such a manner, perhaps unintentionally but regardless destructive and potentially harmful.

 

[surag]

anyone have a reply?

please do help.

regards.

 

[DrMidlife]

anyone have a reply?

please do help.

C'mon, you posted 2 hours ago and it takes 2 hours just to read all that.

I will currently be doing post bacc work at marshall school(not very well known but competent) for a year and then plan on applying and doing 2 year SMP program at marshall.

Doesn't matter where you do more postbac. I'm skeptical about the SMP. "M" and "P", yes, but the "S" is questionable compared with SMPs at Georgetown et al.

The reason I chose marshall is because I am a WV resident and tuition for me is only 5k each semester and its close to home.

Good reasons. Still true during the masters program?

The next two years are class taken alongside the medical students at Marshall. (SMP program)

I can't tell from the website if BMS students are actually in class next to med students, being graded on the same curve, or if you're separated out. Also, what support are you given for applying outside Marshall, as you earn grades in the program? Do you have to wait until after the end of the 2 years, and after your comprehensive exam, to get the dean to send a progress & recommendation letter?

My question is, does it matter whether its marshall or drexel or georgetown SMP? Suppose I get a 4.0 all three years at marshall? Will it be appreciated even if its not as well known? Will adcoms think its a lesser school and that is why I did well?

Would I be better of doing my SMP at another school, georgetown, etc.?

Also, do you have any success stories of students who studied hard after college, did good work and got into top 10 schools? top 20 schools?

With three years of work and 4.0 GPA i can get my GPA up to a 3.2 from a 2.7

No, you can't get that GPA improvement, because undergrad is separate from grad on med school apps, and the undergrad number is most important. You'll have one year of improvement on that 2.7 if you do one more year of undergrad.

It's exceedingly rare to have a sub-3.0 GPA with a 35+ MCAT. You really are not going to get good advice on what to do with that, because it's such an outlier of a data point. I would be inclined to think that two more years of undergrad, with a strong GPA, and one strong year in an SMP, is going to max out the benefit of additional schooling.

Please watch out for the assumption that you can suddenly get a 4.0 for the asking - we see way too much of this around here, where somebody's future calculations are based on an unfamiliar performance effort. I'm not saying you can't do it, but I am saying you should not assume a 4.0. Be very afraid.

Now, as for Marshall compared with Georgetown et al, boy I don't know. There's only one thread I've found in this forum that has any actual content. We have a bunch of info about the "big" programs that advertise their success rates here, and we have plenty of anecdotal and/or first hand info about Gtown/EVMS/Cincinnati/Tulane/Boston grads and where they went on to med school. We've got zip about Marshall. Clearly there's a financial incentive to do this program, and I would think that the maximum benefit is in continuing at Marshall or WV, as you've said. Beyond that, who knows.

I nearly forgot to mention this: My aim on the second MCAT is to score a 40+...mainly because I'm pretty sure I can. I'm not sure how important or valuable an MCAT score past 35 is though... My first MCAT has since expired(2006 taken)

Aaauuuugggghhh I wish you didn't have to retake that 37. Please be aware that most people do NOT improve on their first score, and many people do worse. You're unfortunately going to have to invest in that retake, which will cost you time and money against your other app investments.

The reason why I ask about success stories and students getting into research intensive schools is because
1. if I probably won't and at this point I should be just happy if I get into medical school then I'll try and matriculate into marshall or WV after 1 or 2 years.
2. I am very interested in academic research as you can see from my work experience and plan on doing medical research than practicing medicine exclusively...and going to a medical school with a lot of research emphasis is very important from what I hear for this.

I would really like to get into a top 30 research medical school
and plan on matriculation when I turn 27.

At this point I'd advise you to do research if you like research, and it's premature to be thinking about which med schools you can get into. You have a really hard year of postbac and MCAT ahead.

My goal for EACH summer for the next 3 years is to do research in my home state at WVU(so i can live at home) as well as do a lot of high quality volunteering, clinical work:

1.Hospital volunteeering
2.reading or teaching older folk/children
3. work on public health issues(haven't figured it out yet but after reading atul gawande's recent new yorker article i have a few ideas)-compare rural healthcare in different areas of WV, study a particular disease effect in different areas, its prevalence,whether one area has a better grip on it than others and why etc.
4. write about medicine/health care for online magazine journals etc.-this is more of a pipe dream where if I improve my writing skills I may get something out of it.

Too much. Your job is your GPA and your MCAT score now. You don't have time for more stuff, particularly if you're pursuing research. Do ad hoc hospital volunteering, not even a regular weekly schedule, at most.

Here's some information about who I am and what I've done so far:

Basically, I didn't do as well as I should have...after reading some of your and other people's posts I've realized that looking at the reasons why, no matter how legit(family issues etc.) is just not useful nor helpful in terms of medical school admissions.

I ended up with an overall GPA of 2.72. I did study at a good school(will not disclose for privacy reasons) that places its students at very good med schools every year.

You lose the "good school" merit badge without a competitive GPA, unfortunately.

I also took almost all exclusive science courses, usually 4 or 5 each semester(only 3 courses total during fall senior year-my lowest).

My MCAT score: 37

14 Physical sciences
11 verbal
12 bio
S Writing

I helped assist physicians in India for a summer before college in rural areas.-pretty impactful stuff but i wont go into it as you've read a lot at this point already.

I've volunteered at a local hospital for 60 hours.

I have 1 year of research and work experience in the neurosurgery department studying tumors

1 summer of research experience working on G Protein receptors in the biochemistry department

1 semester of research on studying effects of blindness on astrocyte and glial reorganization

1 semester on neuortoxicity of certain chemicals in the environmental lab

2 months shadowing neurologist

month and a half shadowing psychiatrist

As of now I am still working in my neurosurgery lab I am 23 years as of now.

OK, I'm seeing your assets as a historically stellar MCAT and a nice basket of research experience. I'd recommend being very focused during your postbac at Marshall, and applying early and broadly to a variety of traditional and special masters programs. See if you can get into JHU or Mt. Sinai, for instance. I wouldn't be thinking much beyond that: fill your "bank account" with as much 4.0 as you can, and go "shopping" for your next step. I'd strongly consider an additional undergrad year, because I truly see your 2.7 as the biggest obstacle in your package - please think about getting that to a minimum of 3.0 before doing anything else. If you can use your research mentors to get you places, or to help get you into Marshall or WV, that's bankable.

You've got a LOT of work to do, so brace yourself. Best of luck.

 

[surag]

thank you so much for your advice. time and time again you have always come through with stellar information.

Some questions for you midlife...

Are there programs that are historically cheap? Georgetown program is out of the question as it is so expensive. Are there any other programs between 20-30 thousand dollars including living expenses?

When you say get your UG gpa to a 3.0 do you mean with an SMP program? I'm not sure how I can enroll as an undergraduate after graduating with a degree...

My dad also has the same concerns you brought up with regards to assuming a 4.0 in the future. I agree, which is why I am planning on working incredibly hard this year to get my postbacc to a 4.0. Unfortunately it is only 2 courses each semester for a total of 16 credits. I can only hope that it can be used positively.

I'm beginning to think that I will most likely end up with Marshall as an MD program if I go through with the plan I had originally described.

The program director for the masters program told me that students matriculating either go to marshall or WV osteopathic medical school-not even WVU school of medicine. I'm not sure if she meant that those were the ONLY two schools or the majority of the schools.

its a well regarded school regionally but unfortunately doesn't seem to have any clout outside of WV-go figure, west virginia has almost nothing in terms of academic reputation anyway.

I guess its not all that bad to do research, I recently found out that an MD from VCU won a Nobel Prize and that the only medical school he was admitted to was VCU but through hard work and help from VCU faculty recommendations and dedication to his field he managed to succeed ultimately.

My dream has always to study cognition and neuroscience. whats amazing about this field is that it is so new that there are a great many paths that people take to pursue it...whether it is mathematics or physics or psychology etc. getting a PhD is not a necessity for success...and to me personally, an MD at least provides some sort of protection against lack of funding etc.

I'd love to pursue a residency in psychiatry, neurology, or post doc.

my only concern is that even with stellar recs, grades, board scores attending a lower tier school may hinder research opportunities for me...but I could be wrong.

On another note...I was shocked and disturbed when I found out the great lengths my current boss went through to get to where he is...he graduated phi beta kappa from a top 20 school, went to a top 5 MD school AOA, did his neurosurgery residency at a top 3 school and now spends 80-90 hours a week working his tail off and running a lab...its incredibly disturbing to know that after all that hard work and years of effort you end up practicing medicine a slave to your job- although he has a really hot wife(for her age) and a really nice home

 

[surag]

On that note, I also did a quick search on the available postbacc options.

Most of the good programs are unavailable to students like me. For example, tufts is only for those who have not taken science courses.

Also, programs such as the one at buffalo are not well regarded apparently, its even worse than the drexel IMS program which seems to be a cash blackhole.

I think only a few programs that are well received are the Mt. Sinai programs, the Georgetown programs, and the EVMS program, and the cincinatti program.

The georgetown program is prohibitively expensive for me and I dont think I'm willing to take a loan on that only to attend med school, take another loan and then spend 30 years paying it off or become an orthopedic surgeon...

Also, the sinai program requires a 3.45...at least thats the gist of what I got. Perhaps it would accept me with a lower GPA but I find it hard to believe since its website says that ideal candidates have at least a 3.45 and a 32 MCAT. the MCAT seems incredibly high just to enter a BMS program.

the EVMS program is pretty good but if I can use it to get into eastern virginia medical school then to me its no different from attending the marshall school.

The more I think about it the more I'm probably going to need to settle for a MD at Marshall which isn't bad at all. To me med school is med school but I'm concerned about the opportunities thereafter. We'll see...a friend of mine recently got acceptance into a top 20 residency program in neurosurgery from a Caribbean school so who knows?

But on the other hand...I was looking at fellow students like me on mdapplicants. Now I dont know how honest people on that are but I have no reason to believe people concoct stories about themselves.

I looked up individuals with MCATs over 35 and GPAs under 3.3....there were maybe 40 such individuals who received admissions to medical schools. Of those I'd say half were URMs. The other half were asians/caucasians like me. Of these about 10 received admissions to competitive medical schools. Of those ten I'd say maybe 10 were in my age bracket for applying. the rest were 30+ in age.
Surprisingly many of them did not go to top tier postbacc programs. Some took coursework at local state schools and only one went to a well known program at georgetown. Of the ten, about 8 took the cheaper route like I am planning. I saw one get acceptance to columbia, one to pittsburgh, another to a reasonable school. So its not all out of question...but its a crapshoot. the years were between 2004 and 2008 so its a hit or miss. All I can do is wait it out, enjoy the next 4 years and do my best to gain admission.

I really really do believe that to get the best of this I need to enjoy the next 3-4 years and do activities that are not only valuable for medical school but will help me throughout life. I should look back and say that what I did was reasonable, educational, and that I had a good time and that it helped me as an individual and made me a better person.

 

[DrMidlife]

Are there programs that are historically cheap? Georgetown program is out of the question as it is so expensive. Are there any other programs between 20-30 thousand dollars including living expenses?

Short answer is no, but let me turn it around: I recommend thinking about SMPs as med school on the five year plan. (The EVMS program director strongly agreed with me on this, 2 days ago, in person. I was giddy.) If it's a degree-granting grad program (not Tulane ACP, not VCU), then you can borrow money for it like you borrow for med school. In theory, if you'll be paying instate tuition during med school, and you average in your SMP year, it can seem less shocking. And the real question is whether you can get in somewhere without one. It's possible that doing a traditional masters, after a couple more years of undergrad and another stellar MCAT, could do the trick, and then you'd be able to get stipended. (Hey I just made stipend a verb.)

When you say get your UG gpa to a 3.0 do you mean with an SMP program? I'm not sure how I can enroll as an undergraduate after graduating with a degree...

You can keep taking undergrad classes until the day you die. Almost anywhere. Usually you're classified as some combination of the following words: non-degree-seeking (or 2nd-degree-seeking) 5th-year postbaccalaureate nonmatriculated (or matriculated) nonadmitted (or admitted) special student. There are structured programs for doing additional undergrad (see UT Dallas). You can do a second bachelors degree. You can get yourself admitted under whatever kind of status your school allows, with an eye for what level of financial aid you'd be eligible for, and what registration priority or advising/club access you get. Or you can do nonmatriculated, which might give you access to aid or not, and might or might not require petitioning professors to let you in, class by class.

I guess its not all that bad to do research, I recently found out that an MD from VCU won a Nobel Prize and that the only medical school he was admitted to was VCU but through hard work and help from VCU faculty recommendations and dedication to his field he managed to succeed ultimately.

In theory, you can be a funded research physician if you get a DO or a Carib MD or go to med school in Namibia. Is it likely? Not really.

My dream has always to study cognition and neuroscience. whats amazing about this field is that it is so new that there are a great many paths that people take to pursue it...whether it is mathematics or physics or psychology etc. getting a PhD is not a necessity for success...and to me personally, an MD at least provides some sort of protection against lack of funding etc.

I'd love to pursue a residency in psychiatry, neurology, or post doc.

my only concern is that even with stellar recs, grades, board scores attending a lower tier school may hinder research opportunities for me...but I could be wrong.

I'm not clear why you're against "just" getting a PhD. Seems to me it's a lot more straightforward to do research as a PhD. Avoid the debt, get done with school quicker, get to work quicker.

On another note...I was shocked and disturbed when I found out the great lengths my current boss went through to get to where he is...he graduated phi beta kappa from a top 20 school, went to a top 5 MD school AOA, did his neurosurgery residency at a top 3 school and now spends 80-90 hours a week working his tail off and running a lab...its incredibly disturbing to know that after all that hard work and years of effort you end up practicing medicine a slave to your job- although he has a really hot wife(for her age) and a really nice home

Shocked and disturbed is good information. If you don't want to go those lengths, then don't get an MD. 80-90 hrs/wk, constant scrambling for funding, failed marriages and general discontent are WAY more likely than life balance and inner peace. If you want that six figure salary, assume you'll give up a normal life for it.

 

[ryanjt]

I looked up individuals with MCATs over 35 and GPAs under 3.3....there were maybe 40 such individuals who received admissions to medical schools. Of those I'd say half were URMs. The other half were asians/caucasians like me. Of these about 10 received admissions to competitive medical schools. Of those ten I'd say maybe 10 were in my age bracket for applying. the rest were 30+ in age.
Surprisingly many of them did not go to top tier postbacc programs. Some took coursework at local state schools and only one went to a well known program at georgetown. Of the ten, about 8 took the cheaper route like I am planning. I saw one get acceptance to columbia, one to pittsburgh, another to a reasonable school. So its not all out of question...but its a crapshoot. the years were between 2004 and 2008 so its a hit or miss. All I can do is wait it out, enjoy the next 4 years and do my best to gain admission.

Where do these stats come from? 40 individuals from what? Nationally? Your school?

 

[surag]

Where do these stats come from? 40 individuals from what? Nationally? Your school?

if you read the sentenceabove that paragraph you'll see that I mentioned I found it at MDapplicants. I also stated that I wasnt sure if it were all made up but i highly doubted it.

 

[surag]

I've met too many PhDs whose careers are on the fritz because of funding etc. also I feel that an MD offers way more opportunities and definately a better way to get paid in the long run.

The reaosn I say this isnt because I expect a high salary or want one. 80k+ is satisfactory for me. I just want to know that I can always find a job as a physician as opposed to a researcher with PhD only.

I was more shocked and disturbed by the neurosurgery life than the preceeding work that had been done. I dont think i can be a neurosurgeon...but an MD is not what i was referring to. there are many careers a physician can take that are not as stressful, but no doubt not as high paying which is not important for me.

 

[surag]

anyone else?

 

[deleted248403]

stop bumping your own thread every 2 hrs, its annoying and as DrMidlife said there is a ton of info here to digest

 

[surag]

stop bumping your own thread every 2 hrs, its annoying and as DrMidlife said there is a ton of info here to digest

ok ok sorry!