Is shadowing worth it? How do you find opportunities?

[Trismegistus4]

---

Members don't see this ad.

OK, so I'm still volunteering at a community hospital ER and still hoping to begin post-bacc coursework this coming summer or fall. The ER volunteering, while a good experience, doesn't provide me with any contact with doctors or allow me to observe actual treatment or procedures, so I'm wondering if I should do some shadowing too.

It's not that I'm really longing to shadow doctors, but I'm still a bit worried about my decision to enter medicine. Sometimes I think I really want to do it; other times, like when I see people here and on OPM saying that medicine is so difficult that you have to want to do it for its own sake, that the future's so uncertian, that you shouldn't care about money or prestige at all, that you'll make it only if you love medicine so much that you'd do it if it paid 50k per year, or heck, if you had to pay to do it... I'm not sure. I do think I'll enjoy it, but I think part of me does care about money and prestige. If I have to sacrifice 10 years of my life only to come out the other end and find my income capped at 80k per year, and myself forced to work for the government or an HMO, while I'm sued for every move I make, well, frankly, I don't consider that worth it. I can't pretend that I'm that selfless. The devil's-advocate questions supposedly asked in interviews have it right: if I really just wanted to give up all my worldly possessions and help the poor, I'd become a social worker or join the Peace Corps.

As I understand it (correct me if I'm wrong), the purpose of shadowing is to confront oneself with these issues, so that one can look oneself in the mirror and say "I know all about what medicine entails, and I'm 100% sure I want to it, no matter what." So I've been thinking I should do some shadowing. The problem is, I don't know where to look. All the doctors I've talked to so far (admittedly, they're all ones I've met through my uncle, so they are part of a limited circle) have given me advice that somewhat conflicts with what I read online. They all seemed to think grades & MCATs are the only things that matter, downplaying things like community service, clinical experience, and doing long and hard soul-searching to determine that this is really what I want--their advice was basically "just take the classes and apply." None of them seemed to have even heard of the concept of shadowing, and were a little perplexed as to why someone would want to have an ongoing arrangement to follow them around at work all day. They seemed to think that just talking to doctors would give me all the insight I needed. When I've then turned around and told people on SDN and OPM that this is what doctors in real-life are telling me, they have told me that that's because these docs, having been through the system more than 10 years ago, aren't aware of how it's changed recently. Still, I don't know quite what to think.

Has anyone here done shadowing and found it truly worthwhile, by which I mean it actually helped you make the decision, or at least gave you some valuable experience which you believe helped you later on? And given that the contacts I've made through my one relative in medicine don't seem keen on shadowing, how does one find more receptive docs? Just pull out the yellow pages and start writing letters?

 

[jules0328]

Wow, that sucks. Where did you say you were shadowing at? Look, maybe you are in a bad atmosphere, and if this is the vibe that these people are giving you, and they are making you doubt YOURSELF, then get out of there and find some place else to go to.

I know this much, grades and MCAT, yes they mean lots, but the person is still valued, I think....and all of their other achievements in their lives.

And, 80K a year, where in the world did you get that information. Yes, I am sure someone on SDN, some pessimist will definitely contradict me, but as far as 80K....I think that information may be incorrect. I guess it depends on what you go into.

I noticed you are in Pennsylvania and maybe they do things differently there. I dont know. All I know is that I contacted a local hospital in my are (it is a major DO hospital, that NYCOM students rotate in) and they were nothing but nice to me and told me when I wanted to come in.

If I were you, I would not shadow anywhere that was negative. The route to medicine is hard as it is, you need support from your fellow peers.

Before I left my old job, at a hospital, I also got a couple of attendings who were like, "Medicine, why?" But, who cares, that's their opinion. You need to make your opinion.

I say, find local hospitals. If it comes down to it, you should look to contacting PCOM (its a DO school) and see if they have any suggestions on any DO's in the area. I dont know if you are interested in osteopathic medicine, but its still medicine and DO's tend to lean more towards wanting to help students into shadowing...at least from my experience. But, I could be wrong.

Keep looking and think positive. Good Luck!

 

[Trismegistus4]

jules, I think you've misunderstood me. It's probably my fault; I posted on lack of sleep. 🙂

Most of the doctors I've talked to in real life, with the exception of one family practice doc whose practice is feeling the crunch, have actually been positive about medicine. What I was trying to say is that when I've mentioned shadowing to them, they've looked at me as though I was speaking Egyptian. They just didn't seem to be familiar with the concept and seemed to doubt its efficacy or utility. They seemed to think I should just "dive in": take the classes, take the MCAT, and apply to med schools. Incidental to that attitude was, I think, an implication that all these extracurricular activities and other resume-padding activities everyone seems to worry about around here aren't really important. This whole "question everything about the decision, make sure it's your one true calling, make sure you don't care at all about the money, don't do it unless you just truly love bending over backwards to humbly serve the indigent population" thing one hears online (more so at OPM than here on SDN) wasn't familiar to them. I even asked an anesthesiologist whether the sky was falling in regards to CRNAs and he said "no, of course the sky's not falling!"

The negativity and pessimism mainly comes from online communities like this one and OPM. It's in "cyberspace" that I hear people saying that the sky is falling or that medicine is such a challenging and unique calling that unless you feel it's a part of your very blood you aren't cut out for it. The 80k figure was an exaggeration, but I think one does have to look at the fact that I'm at least 10 years from actually entering practice. Sure, the vast majority of doctors are still making 6 figures today, but a lot can change in 10 years. Whether it's a government takeover and institution of HillaryCare, or just increased downward pressure on reimbursements from insurance companies combined with rising malpractice insurance premiums, doctors' incomes could fall substantially. I personally think 80k is unrealistically low, but given the large proportion of the public that thinks of doctors as arrogant, Benz-driving, country-club-belonging rich snobs and resents them for it, it's easy to imagine a government plan imposing an income cap for doctors, which Canada already does: "it's not fair for those greedy doctors to personally profit from healing and saving lives!" (Granted, there is an "OMG m3dic1Ne r0x0rz u can make like 350k/yr working part time!!!!!11!1" contingent here on SDN, but it seems to be concentrated in the pre-med forums; those in the residency forums seem more negative.)

So, the conflict between what I hear in real life (positive) and what I hear online (negative) makes me unsure.

I'd just like to know whether shadowing is worth it and how I might find amenable doctors. When you contact local hospitals, or, say, PCOM, is there a particular department one should ask for?

 

[Sundarban1]

I'd just like to know whether shadowing is worth it and how I might find amenable doctors.

Of course it is worth it, how else are you suppose to know what doctors really do? Then again it depends on what your interests are. Family practice 😴 Most people look to larger hospitals. Do a search as I think this has been covered over a lot in pre-allo.

 

[jules0328]

I am with Sundarbarn on this whole shadowing business. See, I am 27 years old, and I have 2 years experience in the health care field, dealing with patients and MD's. I knew that it was a good place for me to go into medicine. I found it to be something that I wanted to do, because I experienced it first hand; patient contact, assessments, taking vitals, writing soap notes, learning about diseases, mechanisms, and pharmacology. I loved it, went into work everyday with a smile on my face. So, I knew that is what I wanted to do. HOWEVER, you take someone who is 18 years old, in college, who has no clue what the autonomic system is, and wants to be a doctor. We got a problem...how does someone know what they want to do for the rest of their lives if they have never experienced it for themselves. That is why I say (and I think sundarbarn will agree), shadow MD's and see what they do. Yes, I know you personally (the student) cannot touch the patient. But, you can observe and ask yourself, geee...is this what I want to do for the rest of my life? I think this is the bigger question and this is why LIFE experience is priceless.

 

[UnskinnyBop]

I think a lot of the doctors you've spoken to about med school admissions are of the "old school", so to speak. When most of our parents and such were applying, admissions were more of a pure numbers game (so I've heard). My dad, for example, had a great MCAT and GPA and all, but no clinical or volunteer experience at all! He was accepted everywhere he applied. Since he's still pretty involved with medical students and stuff, he realizes what's involved now in getting in, and absolutely encouraged me to shadow, attend conferences with him, and do volunteer work.


In terms of an affirmation of a career choice... in my case, it wasn't really particularly enlightening. So far, I've shadowed an ER doctor (my dad is one, but I didn't shadow him), a general surgeon, a vascular surgeon, a trauma surgeon, and a pediatric oncologist. I'm planning on shadowing an orthopod and a family praticioner this month. Again, since I don't know anything about medicine yet and feel that shadowing is terribly inappropriate (but nevertheless necessary), I just generally stayed out of the way and tried to understand what was going on. Perhaps, though, since I've grown up with my dad being a doctor my whole life, and because he and I discuss medical school/practicing all the time, I didn't really need to see what a doctor does in general. You should definitely do it for the pure application-enhancement value, though.

 

[sidewalkman]

I'm going the dental route, but the shadowing business is the same. The "old-school" theory I agree with. Some of the dentists I have shadowed in a free clinic never took the dental entrance exam, nor were aware that one existed! Another dentist I spoke to literally graduated with a 2.0 from Podunk State. He did a formal post-bacc (no fancy app for that I may add, and was surprised when I mentioned it), kept in touch with his local dental adcom, and got in with no real activities at all. Don't worry, as more and more students come through the door, more doctors will see that this is the nature of admissions today.

To the OP: Try free clinics for shadowing. The one I contacted was very receptive. And it was pretty valuable - I got plenty of questions answered, and learned a lot about what practicing entails firsthand.

 

[Trismegistus4]

OK, so the consensus is that I should do it even if only for the application-padding value. I can live with that. So... I don't know of any free clinics, and Googling doesn't turn up much. I see some of you are in Philly as I am; do you know of any around here? As for trying large hospitals or teaching hospitals, whom would one contact at a hospital to find doctors to shadow?

Of course it is worth it, how else are you suppose to know what doctors really do?

how does someone know what they want to do for the rest of their lives if they have never experienced it for themselves.

I know this is kind of off topic and I'm prone to rant on this subject, but I always feel strangely compelled to say this when it comes up: why is medicine unique among professions in that there is a feeling among the "gatekeepers" of the profession that one cannot possibly be making the right decision in entering the profession unless one has spent many hours observing it firsthand? Do law schools or nursing schools reject applicants who haven't job-shadowed lawyers or nurses? As I've said before, when I applied for my current job in IT, nobody asked me "how do you know you really want to be a Systems Analyst if you haven't logged at least 100 hours of observing a Systems Analyst at work?" Now, it turned out that I don't really want to be a Systems Analyst, so maybe they would have had a point if they had said that. 😉 But still, I think I could have learned all I needed to know about my current line of work just by talking to people. I'm sure a good shadowing experience is interesting and can teach you some valuable things, but something bugs me about it being necessary... I guess it feels like there's an assumption that if you haven't done it, you must be a naive fool who thinks the TV show ER is totally realistic and expects to make huge amounts of money glamorously saving people's lives left and right while still having time to be king of the golf course, and that you can't possibly have considered the downsides like being around sick and dying people, uncooperative patients, lawsuits, long hours, etc. It just seems patronizing.

Oh, one more thing: I'm not ready to quit my day job quite yet. Anyone been able to shadow docs outside of regular business hours?

 

[UnskinnyBop]

Oh, I totally agree with you. The gatekeeper attitude is totally weird. I also find shadowing generally inappropriate. If I were a patient, I certainly wouldn't some pre-med student hovering around. That being said, since it's a necessary evil, I just suck it up and do it.

In terms of where to shadow around here, I've done most of mine at Hahnemann Hospital and Crozer-Chester in Chester. Honestly, though, mine were all set up through connections. If you want some specific names who I think might be receptive to shadowing by a pre-med person they don't know, just PM me.

In terms of stuff outside regular business hours, you can get a lot of shadowing done by going on weekend rounds with surgeons. I've done that before. I suppose IM works the same way, too. I'm sure you already know this, but it's very easy to set up with the ER to come in at all hours. I take off work to shadow people that I can't arrange to see on weekends or in the evening.

 

[Sundarban1]

Oh, I totally agree with you. The gatekeeper attitude is totally weird. I also find shadowing generally inappropriate.

Right, there are also HIPAA regulations (patient privacy) that need to be addressed, which make it that much harder to find these opportunities outside of working in healthcare. Obviously going to hospitals, volunteering and getting to know a few people in hopes of finding a willing doc may be helpful. I'm not sure, I work at a hospital so it is not an issue for me.

 

[jules0328]

As far as experience is concerned, I still believe that you need it in order to know whether something is right for you. And yes, in a huge way, nursing and teaching, and many other professions do require some kind of "INTERNSHIP" which is what allows for the student to really understand what they are getting themselves into. In nursing programs, they have internships, in law they have internships. I interned for 2 years in the attorney general's office in college, and knew that it sucked and hated it and moved on....my point being is, experience is always the best way to know what is right for someone. True, I know very little about IT so I cannot argue with you on that point, but I guess they make people shadow and intern because you will be dealing with people all day long and that is a lot more draining than sitting in front of a computer screen all day long.

Just my .02 cents.

 

[Trismegistus4]

And yes, in a huge way, nursing and teaching, and many other professions do require some kind of "INTERNSHIP" which is what allows for the student to really understand what they are getting themselves into. In nursing programs, they have internships, in law they have internships.

True, but generally those internships are a part of the school curriculum itself, and are done once you are in school, and thus they are part of your learning the profession rather than an exploration to help you decide whether you're going to do it at all. They are more analogous to 3rd and 4th year clerkships in med school. Those other types of schools don't, as far as I know, require you to do such things in order to be admitted in the first place.

OTOH, my girlfriend is a physical therapist and she had to have PT related experience in order to get into PT school, but the difference there is that it was an explicity stated requirement of the schools; X number of hours of work/volunteer experience in a PT setting was listed as one of the requirements just like the prerequisite classes and there was a space in the application to provide the documentation that you did it. I think what bugs me about the med school shadowing thing is that it seems to be a de facto requirement, but med schools won't admit it's a requirement. I've looked at the admissions websites of many medical schools, and none of them--even the ones that went into detail about the prerequisite classes, the MCAT, English classes they wanted you to take, and plenty of mushy stuff about how they're looking for well-rounded people with a dedication to lifelong learning blah blah blah--none of them listed clinical experience as a requirement. It wouldn't bother me nearly as much if they came out and admitted it, but the fact that they don't adds to the impression that medicine is some sort of private club which you can't get into unless someone already on the inside deigns to teach you the secret handshake.

I also find shadowing generally inappropriate. If I were a patient, I certainly wouldn't some pre-med student hovering around. That being said, since it's a necessary evil, I just suck it up and do it.

This is a good point that isn't often made. I honestly think this is why I feel kind of dumb about asking doctors for shadowing experiences. It can't be quite comfortable for either their patients or them.

Dr. Jones: Mrs. Smith, this is Bob, he's going to be observing the procedure.
Mrs. Smith: Oh, so, are you like a resident or something?
Bob: No, actually...
Mrs. Smith: Oh, a medical student then?
Bob: No, I'm just a pre-med, trying to get some direct exposure to the medical world so I can prove to med schools that I know what I'm getting into.
Mrs. Smith: Oh, so you're in school then, taking the premed classes and preparing to apply to med school?
Bob: No, actually, I haven't even started to do that yet, because you can't even get into a post-bacc program without clinical experience, so I'm hoping this will make me "qualified" in the eyes of post-bacc admissions people.
Mrs. Smith: So you're really just some guy who walked in off the street, and Dr. Jones is going to let you stand here and watch my double aortic laryngoscopitisplasty?
Bob: Uh... basically.

🙄

😀

 

[danala78]

OK, so the consensus is that I should do it even if only for the application-padding value. I can live with that....As I've said before, when I applied for my current job in IT, nobody asked me "how do you know you really want to be a Systems Analyst if you haven't logged at least 100 hours of observing a Systems Analyst at work?"

I haven't even begun to pad my post-bac application with experience yet, and I'm also a career changer (IT manager currently). I've been looking at post bac program applications and wondering how I am going to convince admissions people that I am committed....that now, I've finally chosen a career, possibly for the rest of my working life.

Anyway, I could go on and on about why, and maybe all the posters could help me come up with ideas on looking solid instead of flaky, but that's another post.

I contacted the Career Center at my school and they promised to set me up with some alums to shadow....after I spoke to their career counselor. You could try that...

 

[Trismegistus4]

I haven't even begun to pad my post-bac application with experience yet, and I'm also a career changer (IT manager currently). I've been looking at post bac program applications and wondering how I am going to convince admissions people that I am committed....that now, I've finally chosen a career, possibly for the rest of my working life.

I agree that's a challenge. There seems to be an assumption that everyone chose a career at some point; that whatever you're now doing is a chosen career. But I feel like I just fell into what I'm now doing, without ever really wanting to. Post-bacc programs ask "what is your motivation for changing careers?" But I don't feel like I am changing careers; rather, I feel like I am finally actually choosing a career for the first time in my life. I want to be a doctor now, but I've never wanted to be a systems analyst, teacher, engineer, carpenter, or anything else in the past.

I contacted the Career Center at my school and they promised to set me up with some alums to shadow....after I spoke to their career counselor. You could try that...

By your school, you mean your undergrad alma mater?

 

[danala78]

I feel like I am finally actually choosing a career for the first time in my life. I want to be a doctor now, but I've never wanted to be a systems analyst, teacher, engineer, carpenter, or anything else in the past.

By your school, you mean your undergrad alma mater?

Yes, my undergrad alma mater.

I guess with people who know something about computers, IT is something that just happens naturally, by the laws of supply and demand. In college, I used to envy the people that had a strong drive to be a doctor or professor starting from their first year, but now I wonder if they will start their jobs and discover that it's not right for them. Working a regular job really does make you look a little harder at yourself and think about who you are.

Going back to your earlier post, what finally made you want to become a doctor? (other than crossing off "Systems Analyst" from your list) I'm guessing the applications reviewers wouldn't appreciate if I said I suddenly gained some maturity. 😉