Is the military a good option for me?

[Jchambers48]

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Ok so this is sort of a long story. I guess I should start with my basic information - I graduated last year (2017) from UMass Amherst as a Kinesiology major with a GPA of 3.19 (yikes, I know). I have not taken the MCAT yet.

Ideally, I’d like to go into a Post-Bacc Premed program to make my prerequisite grades more competitive for Medical School and after that take the MCAT. However, I’ve talked with a few family members and a recruiter and they are talking me into joining the military (National Guard) before anything else. The biggest pros from what I understand are the financial benefits that would come along with it as well as the overall maturity I would come out with. I was wondering if anyone who is currently in Medical School, has gone through Medical School, or is in the process of applying to Medical School has been in the same position I am. My main concern is whether or not this is going to be a productive use of the next couple of years or if there are better paths to take that could get me to my end goal. I plan on making a few appointments with local Med School advisors and seeing what they have to say as well, but I figured this was a good first step. Thanks everyone!

 

[PressPforPi]

I don't recommend anyone serve unless they have a desire to serve their country. Even in the Guard. I know of some Guard units that are constantly deploying. The needs of the military will always be above your own. So, if you can live with that, then carry on.

 

[lovehate]

Never serve for money.
But if decide to do it, I wouldn't sign with them until you start medical school. A year of financial aid = a year of service. You don't want them to support you with your 20k/year post-bacc program. Wait until you start medical school and let them pay your 90k tuition.

 

[68PGunner]

Ok so this is sort of a long story. I guess I should start with my basic information - I graduated last year (2017) from UMass Amherst as a Kinesiology major with a GPA of 3.19 (yikes, I know). I have not taken the MCAT yet.

Ideally, I’d like to go into a Post-Bacc Premed program to make my prerequisite grades more competitive for Medical School and after that take the MCAT. However, I’ve talked with a few family members and a recruiter and they are talking me into joining the military (National Guard) before anything else. The biggest pros from what I understand are the financial benefits that would come along with it as well as the overall maturity I would come out with. I was wondering if anyone who is currently in Medical School, has gone through Medical School, or is in the process of applying to Medical School has been in the same position I am. My main concern is whether or not this is going to be a productive use of the next couple of years or if there are better paths to take that could get me to my end goal. I plan on making a few appointments with local Med School advisors and seeing what they have to say as well, but I figured this was a good first step. Thanks everyone!

The military will take anyone with a pulse who has an acceptance letter to medical school. As a veteran who's currently in medical school, I would highly advise you against joining the military before getting accepted into medical school. The military will not help you get into medical school. That's a fact.

Your job right now is to take a post-bac or improve that cgpa, and score high on your MCAT.

 

[deleted480308]

Never serve for money.
But if decide to do it, I wouldn't sign with them until you start medical school. A year of financial aid = a year of service. You don't want them to support you with your 20k/year post-bacc program. Wait until you start medical school and let them pay your 90k tuition.

Just remember the guard/reserve programs for med students don’t pay tuition, just a stipend.

 

[alana615]

I'm currently AF HPSP and an M1. I highly recommend the military route, but only if you have the desire to serve anyway. Doing it for the money is a BAD idea. The tuition/stipend part of the deal should be a really sweet bonus, not the reason for joining. I agree with the previous posts, for now you should focus on your gpa and MCAT. The HPSP program is awesome (if you want to go that route) and will be there come your application year if you do decide to join.

 

[HomeSkool]

Former HPSP here, did a military residency and served on active duty for several years afterward. I agree with those who say that you should only serve for the sake of serving, not for the money. Even after factoring in the tuition payment and better-than-civilian residency pay, I left half a million dollars on the table. That figure would be lower if I'd chosen a less lucrative specialty, but still. (But I'd do it again. There are things far more valuable than money, and I wouldn't trade my military service for anything.)

The military will not help you get into medical school. That's a fact.

On the contrary, no less an authority than @LizzyM has said that military service boosts your application to the same extent that a 0.5 GPA increase would do.

 

[dpmd]

The military will not help you get into medical school. That's a fact.

Aside from the post above referencing an adcom member who claims it is considered an advantage, there is a way it can help you get into med school. It has to do the the maturity the OP mentions and the discipline learned as it applies to any education done afterward. Now of course the military isn't the only way to develop those things, but it is pretty damn good at it. I enlisted in the reserve while still in undergrad and managed to graduate at the top of my class for the medic and practical nurse training I did in the Army and then was able to finish my degree with straight A's as well as achieve an impressive MCAT score. This made up for the incredibly subpar GPA I had before (and the year of A's only raised the total GPA so far). The money was not a big part of it (reserve GI bill and tuition assistance wasn't much compared to tuition) though the access to more loans without my parents having to take them out was nice as it helped eliminate a particular area of stress that affected my mood greatly. Also nice was being able to work as a nurse through a registry when I wanted to and making better money for it than what I was doing before. Kept doing that during the first two years of med school too. The downside of course is the potential for deployments. I very nearly got deployed one time but thankfully was not selected, however I did end up getting deployed during third year of med school. It was an amazing experience and I wouldn't do things differently if I had to make the choice again, but it did mean I graduated a year late and it probably did affect my residency match. I suppose you could argue that the deployment made me lose a year of attending pay (and the initial training which resulted in me graduating a year later did the same) in exchange for military pay plus GI Bill, tuition assistance, and BAH I was paid during my deployment totaling less than that attending pay, but I know I wouldn't have gotten in to med school had I not done something different and who knows how long that "something different" would have taken had it not been the military. I did choose not to become an officer when I got into med school which could have prevented my deployment. Soon after my deployment though, I was glad to be able to just process out due to completion of my term of service rather than still owe them time as a doctor (especially since met a couple of retired doctors who had been called back to active duty because their specialty was needed and they had not resigned their commission and were therefore still considered deployable).

 

[68PGunner]

Military exp will not help if OP doesn’t hit an average baseline for gpa and MCAT.

My active duty exp actually deters me from performing my optimal peak on the MCAT, and from applying and interviewing at an optimal number of schools. Everyone exp is different but mine is def on the worse side of the spectrum.

 

[Goro]

The military will take anyone with a pulse who has an acceptance letter to medical school. As a veteran who's currently in medical school, I would highly advise you against joining the military before getting accepted into medical school. The military will not help you get into medical school. That's a fact.

Military exp will not help if OP doesn’t hit an average baseline for gpa and MCAT.

I'll chime in that this is also untrue. Veterans are continuously among our best students. I'm not a fan of anecdotes, but the wise @gonnif has reported about a fellow who was sering overseas and score something like a 14 on the MCAT, but still garnered an accept.

 

[deleted480308]

Yeah, true but the story of why he got the 14 or something like that was what probably got him in. In any case, dedicated service, whether military or peace corps or similar, is a great asset to an applicant. Anyone who serves in military and gets solid competency in academic shows dedication, discipline, and commitment. Certainly at officer level, I have seen several Air Force and Navy pilots go on to medical school. And of the many enlisted nontrads I have worked with, most had the military as a primary EC, a theme in the PS and certainly mentioned at interview. Both at USUHS and HSPS, love military applicants and surprisingly are receptive to nontrads. During the 10 years or that I ran the OldPreMeds annual conference, we had 2 military themed events. For example, one of the speakers was an Annapolis grad and Navy sub driver who, at 30 or so was accepted by USUHS and was elected class president. Also, I was truly surprised how many former military physicians were represented in medical school administrations including the Chief Academic Officer of the AAMC who was a SF physician for 8 years.

Just two other comments on this. One of the longest serving soldiers in the army, Warner "Rocky" Farr, started as a "grunt" in Vietnam, went on to USUHS at age 29 and eventually retired a full bird colonel as the command surgeon of U.S. Special Operations Central Command Central. Lastly, SDN was founded in part by a osteopathic medical student where it was first hosted on Osteopath.com, who joined the army reserves during residency, and did four, count'em, four combat tours in Iraq and Afghanistan . He eventually sold out of his practice and went into regular army becoming a brigade surgeon in the 82nd Airborne. Last I know he was assigned to South Korea along with OldPreMeds USAF neurologist. And that could the front line in the next shooting war.

Now drop and give me 20

Hooah!

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Military exp will not help if OP doesn’t hit an average baseline for gpa and MCAT.

My active duty exp actually deters me from performing my optimal peak on the MCAT, and from applying and interviewing at an optimal number of schools. Everyone exp is different but mine is def on the worse side of the spectrum.

I dunno. I've been told by adcoms IRL that being a vet is a huge boost at many schools, and I know more than one person with ~500 MCATs and mediocre GPAs who garnered acceptances to civilian schools due to their military experience. And this is IRL--not SDN land.

 

[68PGunner]

I dunno. I've been told by adcoms IRL that being a vet is a huge boost at many schools, and I know more than one person with ~500 MCATs and mediocre GPAs who garnered acceptances to civilian schools due to their military experience. And this is IRL--not SDN land.

It's a boost but it's not going to get you an acceptance if you're a subpar applicant to begin with. The boost probably depends on school. However, I don't think being a vet provides a greater boost than some other CV booster like first author published for a research project.

I should clarify my point about the military not helping with gaining a medical school acceptance. Military duty as an active duty officer or a grunt doesn't give a damn about your aspiration towards being a physician. That means working 60-70 hrs a week at random work hours and revolving your schoolwork around the military instead of the other one around. In most cases, most officers and enlisted service men and women end up ETSing in order to get a normal work hours in order to take scheduled classes and research. Does that mean that it doesn't happen? No. However, the chances of you being in the military, working on your classes and CV to get a medical school acceptance, and then being able to garner your military experience as something positive in your medical school interviews are slim. Military exp is always viewed as positive everywhere. But, the process of you getting to that medical school interview in which your military exp can be counted as a positive CV booster are normally impeded by military duty rather than accelerated by your time in the service.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

It's a boost but it's not going to get you an acceptance if you're a subpar applicant to begin with. The boost probably depends on school. However, I don't think being a vet provides a greater boost than some other CV booster like first author published for a research project.

What do you consider sub-par? I know multiple vets who got acceptances with ~3.4/500.

I should clarify my point about the military not helping with gaining a medical school acceptance. Military duty as an active duty officer or a grunt doesn't give a damn about your aspiration towards being a physician. That means working 60-70 hrs a week at random work hours and revolving your schoolwork around the military instead of the other one around. In most cases, most officers and enlisted service men and women end up ETSing in order to get a normal work hours in order to take scheduled classes and research. Does that mean that it doesn't happen? No. However, the chances of you being in the military, working on your classes and CV to get a medical school acceptance, and then being able to garner your military experience as something positive in your medical school interviews are slim. Military exp is always viewed as positive everywhere. But, the process of you getting to that medical school interview in which your military exp can be counted as a positive CV booster are normally impeded by military duty rather than accelerated by your time in the service.

This is all very true. I'm only able to dedicate as much time to this as I can because I'm in EMDP2. It was really difficult to complete my bachelors while maintaining a decent GPA while working 80+ hours per week, deploying, and going underway all the damn time.

 

[dpmd]

It's a boost but it's not going to get you an acceptance if you're a subpar applicant to begin with. The boost probably depends on school. However, I don't think being a vet provides a greater boost than some other CV booster like first author published for a research project.

I should clarify my point about the military not helping with gaining a medical school acceptance. Military duty as an active duty officer or a grunt doesn't give a damn about your aspiration towards being a physician. That means working 60-70 hrs a week at random work hours and revolving your schoolwork around the military instead of the other one around. In most cases, most officers and enlisted service men and women end up ETSing in order to get a normal work hours in order to take scheduled classes and research. Does that mean that it doesn't happen? No. However, the chances of you being in the military, working on your classes and CV to get a medical school acceptance, and then being able to garner your military experience as something positive in your medical school interviews are slim. Military exp is always viewed as positive everywhere. But, the process of you getting to that medical school interview in which your military exp can be counted as a positive CV booster are normally impeded by military duty rather than accelerated by your time in the service.

Reserve/guard tends to be different. Not always and they don't give a damn about your school schedule when it comes to deployments, but I was able to get excused from annual training for tests on occasion (out of a 6 yr commitment I only made it to AT like once) and I was even able to get put on orders during med school where they counted going to school as meeting my obligation for AT and some drilling that year. One weekend a month isn't too onerous an obligation during school as long as you plan for it.

 

[68PGunner]

What do you consider sub-par? I know multiple vets who got acceptances with ~3.4/500.

DOs or MDs? I have never heard of vets getting into MDs w/ 3.4/500.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

DOs or MDs? I have never heard of vets getting into MDs w/ 3.4/500.

Both.

 

[68PGunner]

Both.

Nice. Good for them. Those guys and gals deserve it.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Nice. Good for them. Those guys and gals deserve it.

Agreed. Knowing what military life like, especially trying to get a degree at the same time, I think anyone who manages to do both plus take the MCAT and hit the other wickets deserves a boost.

 

[Jchambers48]

Thanks everyone for the responses. I don’t think I’m going to go the military route, it just seems like a cop-out to me right now. I think you are all right when you say I should focus on the MCAT and fixing my GPA and later down the line of the military is still an option, I should explore it then. Being completely honest the only thing that got me thinking about this as an option was a $20k sign on bonus, and that’s enough to draw anyone’s attention. I haven’t really explored all of the commitments I’d have and what exactly I’d be doing for the next 6 years. It definitely was an impulse decision by me and I’m glad I took the time to research it before I signed onto something that would’ve changed my future pretty drastically long term.

I’m going to take this week coming up to talk to a few different post bacc programs and see what they have to say about where I am and where I can/should go moving forward. Ideally I’d like to take the MCAT before the end of the year just to get a sense of where I am on that front but still giving myself plenty of time to prepare for it because I heard that needs to pretty intense to be effective.

 

[trev5150]

The military will take anyone with a pulse who has an acceptance letter to medical school.

Let's not forget the many who cannot get in due to the many disqualifying factors - physical/mental, bad paper, etc. You can have a med school acceptance in hand, but if you have asthma, pound sand. Say you got a juvie B&E and changed your ways, see ya.

Certainly at officer level, I have seen several Air Force and Navy pilots go on to medical school.

These people are safety wired to the high-achiever position anyway.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Let's not forget the many who cannot get in due to the many disqualifying factors - physical/mental, bad paper, etc. You can have a med school acceptance in hand, but if you have asthma, pound sand. Say you got a juvie B&E and changed your ways, see ya.

There are waivers for many a thing.

 

[MarineMDHopeful]

I dunno. I've been told by adcoms IRL that being a vet is a huge boost at many schools, and I know more than one person with ~500 MCATs and mediocre GPAs who garnered acceptances to civilian schools due to their military experience. And this is IRL--not SDN land.

DOs or MDs? I have never heard of vets getting into MDs w/ 3.4/500.

I got into both Pitt and Mayo with just a 509. Being a vet makes a difference. I'd love to believe it was my ECs and personality that got me in but the truth is being a vet was a huge positive.

 

[68PGunner]

Let's not forget the many who cannot get in due to the many disqualifying factors - physical/mental, bad paper, etc. You can have a med school acceptance in hand, but if you have asthma, pound sand. Say you got a juvie B&E and changed your ways, see ya.

These people are safety wired to the high-achiever position anyway.

There are waivers available for everything especially when it comes to the recruitment of medical students for HPSP.

 

[dpmd]

I got into both Pitt and Mayo with just a 509. Being a vet makes a difference. I'd love to believe it was my ECs and personality that got me in but the truth is being a vet was a huge positive.

I am not sure I was above a 3 for my GPA and I got into 4 schools. Now my mcat certainly helped (according to one comparison chart mine would have equated to 520 something) but still I think without the military experience I wouldn't have had the same success.

 

[FlavivirusProtease]

The financial benefits aren't really that great, to be honest.

Yes, you get to go to school for free and you get a stipend, which totals about 300k.

On the other hand though, I've heard that a lot of the time they won't want you to go into long residency or fellowship programs, which can effect how much you make for the rest of your life.

Additionally, the years you are working for the military, you'll be paid a lot less than other attending physicians. Air force physicians make base pay of $88,044 vs any primary care position, which will easily pay you 140k. That 50k over 4 years already means you've paid back 200k out of the 300k they've paid for your medical schooling.

I know some people do it and bank on the idea they won't get deployed, but that's always a possibility. You could be spending the majority of your time in a base somewhere in the world. That's the biggest deal breaker for me, personally.

(I know you said national guard, but I'm just analyzing the military overall, because as someone said, the national guard only does a stipend, not the full tuition + stipend)

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

The financial benefits aren't really that great, to be honest.

Yes, you get to go to school for free and you get a stipend, which totals about 300k.

On the other hand though, I've heard that a lot of the time they won't want you to go into long residency or fellowship programs, which can effect how much you make for the rest of your life.

Additionally, the years you are working for the military, you'll be paid a lot less than other attending physicians. Air force physicians make base pay of $88,044 vs any primary care position, which will easily pay you 140k. That 50k over 4 years already means you've paid back 200k out of the 300k they've paid for your medical schooling.

I know some people do it and bank on the idea they won't get deployed, but that's always a possibility. You could be spending the majority of your time in a base somewhere in the world. That's the biggest deal breaker for me, personally.

(I know you said national guard, but I'm just analyzing the military overall, because as someone said, the national guard only does a stipend, not the full tuition + stipend)

This post makes some good points, but it is clouded with some misinformation. The military can limit which specialty you enter if you choose to specialize while in the military. But they do not force you into a specialty. If you really want to be a rad onc in the Navy, that probably isn’t going to happen. If being a rad onc is more important, when you finish your internship you fulfill your obligation as a GMO and then apply for the civilian match when your time is up.

Also, base pay depends on time in service and rank. That $88k figure is oddly specific. Your pay as a resident will be your base pay plus your BAH plus some other pays. It is about $80k plus or minus. When you become an attending it goes up. Will you be making anywhere close to as much as your civilian colleagues? For most specialties, no. But primary care docs can make a competitive salary. Again, it depends.

But being debt free is nice. You should not join the military for the money though. You will make less, and while being debt free is nice, if you have no desire to serve, you will be miserable (this is not specifically for the op since he said he wasn’t going to join).

 

[FlavivirusProtease]

This post makes some good points, but it is clouded with some misinformation. The military can limit which specialty you enter if you choose to specialize while in the military. But they do not force you into a specialty. If you really want to be a rad onc in the Navy, that probably isn’t going to happen. If being a rad onc is more important, when you finish your internship you fulfill your obligation as a GMO and then apply for the civilian match when your time is up.

Also, base pay depends on time in service and rank. That $88k figure is oddly specific. Your pay as a resident will be your base pay plus your BAH plus some other pays. It is about $80k plus or minus. When you become an attending it goes up. Will you be making anywhere close to as much as your civilian colleagues? For most specialties, no. But primary care docs can make a competitive salary. Again, it depends.

But being debt free is nice. You should not join the military for the money though. You will make less, and while being debt free is nice, if you have no desire to serve, you will be miserable (this is not specifically for the op since he said he wasn’t going to join).

The $88k number came from the base pay grade of members of the military by rank. I believe physicians enter at O4 after residency. I think there may be some bonuses by year, though.

 

[BombsAway]

You guys, @68PGunner is absolutely correct about needing to hit baseline stats before the .mil boost kicks in. However, SDN bias makes those baselines seem "low". In reality, ~500 mcat was designed to correlate with being likely to pass boards. So the anecdotes about vets getting in with anything greater than 500 shouldn't be that surprising. My cycle went pretty darn well with a ~502.

Anyway, adding to the above. Don't join for the reasons you've stated. You would regret it.

 

[trev5150]

You could be spending the majority of your time in a base somewhere in the world

This is largely incorrect. Overseas unaccompanied billets (Japan, Italy, England and so on) are a year, 2-3 if you're in a leadership position, which you wouldn't be unless you decided to stay in, and are usually pretty chill.

If you are a Bn surgeon or a flight surgeon (meaning they decide to utilize you for that or a GMO tour and then turn you loose into the match as a civilian when you're done) you'd deploy according to the unit's deployment cycle, which isn't as taxing as you might imagine (CTF, WESTPAC etc. pumps are 7-8 months, generally the same for other types of units). Majority of time necessarily mean at least 50% and that's not really likely.

 

[trev5150]

The bottom line is don't unless you want to spend a few years serving.

 

[BombsAway]

This is largely incorrect. Overseas unaccompanied billets (Japan, Italy, England and so on) are a year, 2-3 if you're in a leadership position, which you wouldn't be unless you decided to stay in, and are usually pretty chill.

If you are a Bn surgeon or a flight surgeon (meaning they decide to utilize you for that or a GMO tour and then turn you loose into the match as a civilian when you're done) you'd deploy according to the unit's deployment cycle, which isn't as taxing as you might imagine (CTF, WESTPAC etc. pumps are 7-8 months, generally the same for other types of units). Majority of time necessarily mean at least 50% and that's not really likely.

OP is talking about joining the guard now, pre-mcat/applying/med-school. So he/she would be unlikely to find themselves in a flight surgeon billet, I imagine.

 

[maddeh87]

While it can help pay for school and make you a more competitive applicant, if you join only for those reasons you're going to be miserable. Only you can decide if the military is right for you. Personally, enlisting was the best decision I've ever made, but it's absolutely not for everyone. It helped me grow as a person and mature, and I think it helps you put a lot of things into perspective. It definitely helps financially; I served 8 years on active duty Air Force, and joined the Massachusetts Air National Guard as a traditional guardsman when my last contract was up, and the guard covered the complete cost of my undergraduate degree. Because I was active duty (if you're guard/reserve, you need to serve 3 years active duty or on AGR orders), I have the Post 9/11 GI bill. The GI Bill covers the full instate tuition of any school, gives you a housing stipend based on the zip code of the school, $1000 a year for books, and I think covers one licensing exam, so I'll be able to go to medical school (mostly) debt free.

I would definitely say that being a veteran helped with my application. I had a 2.3 GPA when I joined the military after high school (one year of community college very poorly spent), and I had failed an online course when I was deployed. I've had a 4.0 since I got out and went to school full time (3.61cGPA/3.60sGPA when my blemished academic past is included), great research, lots of hours of patient care as an EMT, but a mediocre MCAT (506). So far I've been quite successful; I've had three interviews and one acceptance (waiting to hear back from one next week, hopefully). Each school I interviewed with seemed to really value veterans and saw our military service really favorably. I think that if I wasn't a veteran, I would not have been a competitive applicant with my stats.

The guard does have a program for medical students, depending on if you're Army Guard or Air Guard. Army Guard has the MDSSP program where you get a stipend, but there's quite a service commitment afterward. The Air Guard has a program where you don't get a stipend, but I think it's only 4 years as a traditional guardsmen after medical school. If you want to be a flight surgeon, you can go to the Aerospace Medicine Primary course after your third year for one of your electives (and get paid to do it). There's some info on these and other military programs on the military medicine forums here.