Is there a Brain Drain in Va..

[JohnHolmes]

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Living in Cville, I know how the Commonwealth has lead an assault upon higher education and continued to critically underfund its fair share of the burden. Yet many schools in Va seem to thrive in spite of, rather than because of, the Commonwealth. In my state, this has lead three schools--VT, UVa and W&M to seek greater autonomy from the Old Dominion in exchange for giving up some of the almost nonexistent funding.

I guess this thread applies specifically to med school. Does Virginia have a "Brain Drain?" Do the policies of the commonwealth fail to retain students to go to med school and practice within the state. For Virginia residents too -- and those outside of the state -- what do you think? What would keep you in state and what would send you away? Are you happy with the state of things now?

Coops

 

[AlternateSome1]

You know, I asked the interviewers at UVA and the student tour guide how the budget cuts were affecting the school. They basically said that they might have lost a couple of medical journals, and the student mentioned that now they have to pay for their own copies of papers. One interviewer did mention that the undergraduate part of the school has faired a bit worse and they have experienced quite a few class cuts. I think this is pretty comparable to VT, the undergrad is really suffering, but the grad programs are staying afloat with money they are getting from other sources. I am going to stay in VA for med school, because even with the tuition hikes it is cheaper than any alternatives. If I were just entering college, however, I would definitely leave the state.

~AS1~

 

[TheFlash]

Originally posted by AlternateSome1
I am going to stay in VA for med school, because even with the tuition hikes it is cheaper than any alternatives.

~AS1~

Hmm, it's true that it's somewhat cheaper than out-of-state schools, but the fact is that it's an insignifcant amount in the long run. If you stay in VA for med school, you're facing 20K+ at any of the state schools, including UVA (where it looks like you'll be matriculating). That's about 10K less a year than most out-of-state private schools, so you only save 40K during the whole of your medical education when holding all other fees equal. 40K is a miserly sum to worry about when choosing a medical school, especially if you're considering attending a top 20 school or a school in a more vibrant city than Virginia has to offer.

Look at the Texas or Cali schools or UNC. Tuition is dirt cheap! Even Baylor, a private school, offers ultra low tuition. Hell, they even offer that tuition to out-of-staters. I think Virginia schools lose their best and brightest students to better schools across the country because the mediocre quality of the in-state education in Virginia simply does not justify the ever-rising tuition. Why pay such a high in-state tuition if you can get a significantly better education for roughly the same price elsewhere? Many of the brightest people at UVA undergrad aren't even considering the state schools for some of these very reasons.

tf

 

[AlternateSome1]

40/160 = .25...25% is very significant to me. That is also suggesting that cost of living will be the same elsewhere, which it won't be since I would have much higher travel costs getting to and from my parents house (Southeast VA). I also believe 10K is a bit of a low estimate. UVA and EVMS both suggested that it would cost out-of-staters ~50K per year and in-staters ~36K per year in tuition, fees, and cost of living. 50-36 = 14K per year difference. (14*4) / (36*4) = .38. Now I think it is reasonable to say that 38% is a pretty large difference.

~AS1~

 

[TheFlash]

The point I was making is that other state schools make a much larger effort in retaining state residents than Virginia does. UNC, a school right next door and better ranked than any of the Virginia schools, costs about 7K to attend. Since you like to think in terms of percentages, that's ~65% less than we pay at any of our own VA med schools. My upper-middle class parents could probably pay for an education at UNC; they probably can't in VA. I know VA is facing a bugdet crisis, but that doesn't negate the fact that I've payed taxes in this state my entire life. It's disheartening that other states with bigger financial problems than VA (i.e. Cali) still give residents a cheaper education.

The brightest people in Virginia can and will leave the state for medical school. Look at Coops. These people would better consider staying if the state's education was cheaper and/or better managed. Sure, you can mess around with the numbers as much as you want, but IMO when you pass 20K+ for an in-state med school, it's damn expensive.

Side note: I'm certainly not trying to discourage anyone from attending Virginia schools, as I myself am considering them seriously. It's just a shame that tuition is an arm and a leg.

Good luck all,

tf

 

[JohnHolmes]

Originally posted by TheFlash
The point I was making is that other state schools make a much larger effort in retaining state residents than Virginia does.

tf

I certainly agree with this. How do other Virginians and non-Virginians feel?

I love the Old Dominion, but have felt increasingly at odds with the legislature and the direction it is taking the Commonwealth. It seems that Virginia is less invested in Virginia's continued educational excellence and has not been adequately preparing alternatives for Virginians to seek to stay state-side.

UVa undergrad and W&M and VT (to a lesser degree, but still a great school!) are exceptions [undergrad programs here]. The Law School at UVa is kindof the Commonwealth's flagship graduate program. Now Darden business is catching up.

If Virginia was able to maintain or even begin to extend the same commitment to higher education that California, NC and Michigan have adopted, I think many Virginians, myself included, would be even happier to remain in the Commonwealth than we currently are. Until such changes begin to move, it seems a brain drain will ...

Coops

 

[rgporter]

What is "The Commonwealth"? Probably a dumb question, but please humor this child of the west.

 

[glj79]

One of the only things I remember from government class in high school - Virginia and one other state (maybe Vermont? it's one of the New England ones) are the only two of the United States considered "commonwealths" instead of "states." I don't know if there's a distinction in anything other than name, though.

 

[SOBEIT]

Just a note on Dardaen and Virginia Law. They are both terrific programs, but if you look at their tuition, it is hard to believe that they get any state funding. An in-state law student pays $23,700 a year, while out of state pays $29,200. An in-state Darden student pays $30,500 and out-of-state pays $35,500. So once you add in living expenses Darden expects about $51, 500 for out-of-state and $46,500 for in-state, that is only about a 10% difference. Obviously there is little or no state funding for these great programs.

 

[Amy B]

Originally posted by rgporter
What is "The Commonwealth"? Probably a dumb question, but please humor this child of the west.

Virginia is a commonwealth rather than a state, child of the west😀

 

[rgporter]

I guess I should have been more clear, I had figured that out. 😉 What is the difference between a commonwealth and a state though?

 

[JohnHolmes]

Originally posted by SOBEIT
Just a note on Dardaen and Virginia Law. They are both terrific programs, but if you look at their tuition, it is hard to believe that they get any state funding. An in-state law student pays $23,700 a year, while out of state pays $29,200. An in-state Darden student pays $30,500 and out-of-state pays $35,500. So once you add in living expenses Darden expects about $51, 500 for out-of-state and $46,500 for in-state, that is only about a 10% difference. Obviously there is little or no state funding for these great programs.

Exactly, the Law school has actually foregone any state financing this year and last in exchange for greater autonomy in setting tuition rates and acceptance policies. They also have more control over capital projects.

Uva VT and W&M are seeking a similar freedom from the Commonwealth. While this is believed to help these institutions, its in response to bare-bones state funding, not the perferred path had we been funded at an adequate level by Richmond.... 🙁

Coops

 

[avhart]

I went out of state to a highly ranked private school and I have returned to Virginia and will be attending UVA next year...which feels kind of strange to me. I think for a lot of kids from northern Virginia (like me), there isn't much of a tie to "Virginia"...we are DC Metro area kids, not Virginia kids. I didn't develop a "Virginia identity" until I went far away to college...and doubt I ever would have come back had it not been for my long-term boyfriend who is here at UVA. The problem is (and this is not to be elitist...) but the two main areas of concentrated wealth and population are the VA Beach area and the northern VA area...both areas where there is a huge proportion of military kids (like me!) who don't have ties to a particular state or (if you aren't military) are exposed to people from all over the world on a regular basis.

The problem is in-state tuition and prestige is high enough among the undergrads to create an incentive to attend college in Virginia (I was among the VAST minority who went out-of-state to college) and then there is no real incentive to stay past the four years of undergrad. There is no Old Dominion tradition that rings heavy in the hearts of kids looking at higher education...for a lot of kids it's where there parents happen to end up at the end of their military careers or something...

 

[TheFlash]

Originally posted by avhart
The problem is in-state tuition and prestige is high enough among the undergrads to create an incentive to attend college in Virginia (I was among the VAST minority who went out-of-state to college) and then there is no real incentive to stay past the four years of undergrad. There is no Old Dominion tradition that rings heavy in the hearts of kids looking at higher education...for a lot of kids it's where there parents happen to end up at the end of their military careers or something...

Exactly. Yeah, UVA is a cheap, highly ranked school for undergrad, but 4 more years in Cville?... eh... I dunno how many sane people can handle a podunk college town for that long. Especially with the jaw-dropping "state" tuition of UVA (and the rest of the Va schools). This is the reason that the majority of the academic upper crust of UVA students never seriously consider their alma matter for medical school. It's sad really. They flee their own state. Educational subsidization needs to be a major topic for the next gubernatorial election if Virginia wants to stop the brain drain of their best and brightest.

tf

 

[JohnHolmes]

excellent points guys.

Coops

 

[TheFlash]

Originally posted by Cooper_Wriston
excellent points guys.

Coops

Now, if we could only get Mark Warner to say that... 😎

tf