Is there a chance?

[AmIHopeless]

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So I'm looking for some insight, and I'm basically going into this blind. I'm about to turn 25, 3 years out of undergrad school and want to explore becoming the possibility of becoming a psychiatrist. Little did I know you have to go through med school to do so. (Just thought it was a Grad program)

So the facts are pretty dismal, but I assume with all the knowledge on this forum you can point me in the right direction (if one exists)

I graduated from Virginia Tech majoring in Finance and minoring in English, with a GPA of 2.77, ya that hurts. I have a very good job at a financial firm in strategic planning, and have done very well for myself from a buisness perspective out of college. Long story short, I never really liked Business but ended up going that route. I was originally an accounting major hated that, which is reflected in my GPA, I snapped my junior year and moved into Finance (my only option unless I wanted to tack on 3 more years), and did considerably better, still not stellar though. Accounting first two years GPA 2.5ish, Finance 2 years GPA 3.3ish (upward trend). Ultimately though I'm stuck with a 2.77.

On the plus side I'm an excellent standardized test taker. I received a 1540 (out of 1600 at the time) on my SATs, so I'm fairly confident (I could be wrong though) I could score 30+ on the MCATs.

So can anyone come back from this?
If so, how?

I see basically the options of taking the MCATs, SMP program, or post bacc program, as possibilities. This is after very limited research.

The Catch-22 though it seems is that my GPA is too low to raise it through either of these programs, yet I need to raise it to apply to Med School.

Basically, I'm asking, next steps?

Is it possible to get into either an SMP or post bacc program with a 2.77 and a theoretical MCAT score of 30+?
Even if I were to enter one of these programs would a Med School even take me with an SMP or post bacc program accrediation?

I just want to know what my options are (yes they seem limited).

To me it seems that my next step would be taking the MCATs to see if I can gain entrance into one of these programs. I guess I'm asking is it worth it to really really focus on these MCATs if I'm doomed regardless by my GPA.

Also, is wanting to go into the field of psychiatry allow me more wiggle room, as opposed to someone who wants to be a general practitioner? I'm guessing no, but worth asking.

Thanks

P.S. I apologize if this comes off as me being cluesless, trying to start somewhere.

 

[KiwiBruin]

Did you take the basic science classes needed to take the MCAT?
If not, I would suggest taking those classes first, which will also raise up your GPA. Then Ace the MCAT. During this time you should get some ECs too like volunteering if you can. But the most important part is to get good grades. Also, you can apply to like Harvard extension and other places that take people without caring about thier background/GPA. I know the ucla extension doesn't care at all. Take the science classes there that you did badly in and if you didn't take any just take some there. (I think it is like this at most community colleges and maybe some 4 years).

I think you have to go the SMP route unless you want to go carribean. From what I read on the forums, general practitioner is the easist to match into and everything else is harder, but psychiatry isn't one of the harder ones to match into. I wouldn't worry about that now. I would concentrate on getting into med school first. Also, you can change your mind once you get into med school. I read stories of others making it with GPA around yours. Good luck.

(I am going to appy to SMPs soon too so im pretty much in a similiar situation as you. Also studying for the MCAT xD)

Short Answer: yes, but it WILL take a lot of time and work.

 

[NewmansOwn]

I also don't quite understand if you've taken your prereqs or not. You didn't mention that so I'm guessing not, but you're also talking about taking the MCAT. However, since you were until recently unaware that psychiatry is a medical specialty, I hope I'm not the first to give you the bad news that the MCAT cannot be taken until you complete the premed prereqs. It's not like the SATs -- it's only partially an aptitude test. You need to know a very large volume of background information from science classes before you'll be equipped to take it.

I'm hoping you just didn't know what the MCAT really is. Please do not take the MCAT without having taken the prereqs -- you will do astoundingly poorly and that will be another mark against you.

 

[Instatewaiter]

So I'm looking for some insight, and I'm basically going into this blind. I'm about to turn 25, 3 years out of undergrad school and want to explore becoming the possibility of becoming a psychiatrist. Little did I know you have to go through med school to do so. (Just thought it was a Grad program)


I graduated from Virginia Tech blah blah blah

P.S. I apologize if this comes off as me being cluesless, trying to start somewhere.

Your first mistake was going to tech... I really have no idea why you would have gone to tech with a 1540 but I am going to assume it had to do either with a marriage to a sibling, a bet you lost or more likely a horribly disfiguring accident.

But seriously there are some things that you need to do:

1) Take the pre-recs which include a year of biology + lab, chemistry + lab, physics + lab and organic chemistry + lab. You also need an english and some calculus.

2) Take the MCAT- if you get a passable score continue. If you dont, this may be the sign you should give up. As said before, it is a knowledge test mixed with an aptitude test. Take a course.

3) improve the undergrad GPA. This may be done by taking any undergraduate courses (including pre-recs). Ideally you want it to be as close to a 3.0. However as you probably realize you will run into diminishing returns so you may be better served by doing limited amt of undergraduate work and moving to a special masters program.

4) SMP- there are various ones in Va including VCU/MCV (the one I did) or EVMS.

 

[Habeed]

Also, you should be aware that if you genuinely want to be a psychiatrist, you will likely have little problem becoming one if you go Carribbean.

However, if you think you might change your mind, then spending an extra year or two on an SMP might get you in to U.S. allpathic. Below 3.0 is really, really bad for your chances, though, and SMPs can only do so much. Med schools still care about undergrad no matter what you got in your masters.

 

[AmIHopeless]

Thanks for the direction so far.

A couple clarifying questions though:

By chance I took biology and a lab in undergrad, so that would be taken care along with the english and calc. Which leaves me the other science pre-reqs.

1. Do I take these courses at a local college in the area? (I'm just outside of D.C. lots of options).
2. Would the caliber of that college matter at this point? Community vs GW
3. Would these courses affect my standing undergrad GPA still?
4. Would a med school apply an "in-major" GPA to my science courses, or give them any special treatment?
5. What is the difference between a post-bac and just taking the courses ad-hoc? Is one easier/a more viable option with my GPA? After quick research most of the post-bac programs have a 3.0 req, so I'd assume I'd have to take the courses separately. Does this look bad?

So it seems to me the chain of events if I do decide to pursue this would be:

1. Take pre-req courses at a local college
2. Take an MCAT prep-course
3. Do amazing on the MCAT because my GPA is lackluster. (Although I'm building in the assumption it would be raised slightly due to pre-req course work)
4. At this point, I'm not quite sure. It seems to me I would then attempt to enter an SMP program in the US or have to go the Caribbean and go right into Med school. Can anyone discuss the merits of either choice/my theoretical chances of getting into an SMP program or Caribbean school (Keep in mind I want to do forensic psychiatry, if that affects your answer) Also, do U.S. allpathic schools have part-time programs such as Law schools, with lowered reqs?

Does this seem the right approach to take?

Thanks again for feedback.

 

[NewmansOwn]

Lowered requirements? Medical school is not a part-time endeavor, nor are the requirements to complete it ever abridged. Some people take a year off in between years 2 and 3 (occasionally other years, as well), but it's usually to either do research (Post Sophomore Fellowship) or get an additional degree, like an MPH.

Your GPA will rise if you do well on classes, but it doesn't rise quickly. Just taking a few classes will not elevate it all that substantially. Take a look online at some of the GPA calculators. You can input your current GPA and it will tell you the number of credits you need to get high grades in before you reach a specified target GPA.

You won't get into a formal postbac program, so take the classes on your own at a local college. People go to med school with community college credits but since you have access to many universities, I would recommend taking the courses at one of them.

Oh and your choice of specialty this early in the game has absolutely no bearing on med school admissions. You go to med school to become a physician first, then you specialize. The entrance requirements are in no way relaxed because you want to be a psychiatrist -- a psychiatrist is just as much a physician as any other medical doctor.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Thanks for the direction so far.

A couple clarifying questions though:

By chance I took biology and a lab in undergrad, so that would be taken care along with the english and calc. Which leaves me the other science pre-reqs.

1. Do I take these courses at a local college in the area? (I'm just outside of D.C. lots of options).
2. Would the caliber of that college matter at this point? Community vs GW
3. Would these courses affect my standing undergrad GPA still?
4. Would a med school apply an "in-major" GPA to my science courses, or give them any special treatment?
5. What is the difference between a post-bac and just taking the courses ad-hoc? Is one easier/a more viable option with my GPA? After quick research most of the post-bac programs have a 3.0 req, so I'd assume I'd have to take the courses separately. Does this look bad?

So it seems to me the chain of events if I do decide to pursue this would be:

1. Take pre-req courses at a local college
2. Take an MCAT prep-course
3. Do amazing on the MCAT because my GPA is lackluster. (Although I'm building in the assumption it would be raised slightly due to pre-req course work)
4. At this point, I'm not quite sure. It seems to me I would then attempt to enter an SMP program in the US or have to go the Caribbean and go right into Med school. Can anyone discuss the merits of either choice/my theoretical chances of getting into an SMP program or Caribbean school (Keep in mind I want to do forensic psychiatry, if that affects your answer) Also, do U.S. allpathic schools have part-time programs such as Law schools, with lowered reqs?

Does this seem the right approach to take?

Thanks again for feedback.

1) While the pre-recs can be done at a CC, generally it looks better if they are taken at a 4 year institution. Sometimes though, universities dont offer classes at night and you are left only with the option of CCs.

3) Med schools look at the science courses GPA (aka BCMP) as well as the overall GPA. The 2 GPAs- BCMP and overall are important. There is debate as to which is more important. It will be recognized if you do well on your pre-recs.

4) Post-bac applies to all school you do after your bachelor's degree. There are formal programs or you can do it yourself. The formal programs have the advantage of advisors that are familiar with this kind of thing and possibly people who will help you get in. Some formal post-bacs have linkages to medical schools. Unfortunately you dont have the GPA for a formal post-bac and will have to DIY. Your coursework will be treated the exact same as if you did a formal program but you will not have the benefit of the other things that go along with a formal program.


As it stands now, you may be able to get into some of the easier-to-get-into SMPs but even if you do superb in them you will be hardpressed to get into medical school. Your GPA is probably too low. That said, i got into medical school with below a 3.0 after an SMP but admissions have gotten harder since I was applying and I am the exception to the rule. If you want to go to school in the US, try to bring up your GPA before you apply to SMPs.

There are a few other options besides US MD schools: DO schools and Carribean MD schools. DO>carribean.

US MD gives you the best options after school. DO schools will allow you to do most specialties but competitive MD specialties are all but closed to you as a DO. US MD clinical training is generally better than DO schools for various reasons.

Carribean is the easiest to get into and also the hardest to get a residency with. Psychiatry is the easiest specialty to match into so the carribean would not be a major set back. However if you change your mind in medical school your options for residencies will be severely limited from the carribean.


There are 4 better carribean programs: SGU, SABA, AUC and Ross. Do not go to another carribean school. Instead of doing an SMP you could improve your GPA and take the MCAT and then apply carribean. I generally like to advise people to exhaust all options before applying carribean.

Some bad things about the carribean:
High rate of attrition
High tuition
Poor match rates
Poor USMLE board pass rates
Inability to match into the most competitive specialties
Stigma assocaited with it

Pros
Easier to get into so may cut a few years off your quest to get into med school.


Medical schools do not do part time. They also generally do not do programs that are easier to get into. The first 2 years are probably like taking around 20-25 credits in college. The Third year is significantly more time consuming. Some people work part time in med school but those are a rarity.

Lowered requirements? Medical school is not a part-time endeavor, nor are the requirements to complete it ever abridged. Some people take a year off in between years 2 and 3 (occasionally other years, as well), but it's usually to either do research (Post Sophomore Fellowship) or get an additional degree, like an MPH.

Your GPA will rise if you do well on classes, but it doesn't rise quickly. Just taking a few classes will not elevate it all that substantially. Take a look online at some of the GPA calculators. You can input your current GPA and it will tell you the number of credits you need to get high grades in before you reach a specified target GPA.

You won't get into a formal postbac program, so take the classes on your own at a local college. People go to med school with community college credits but since you have access to many universities, I would recommend taking the courses at one of them.

Oh and your choice of specialty this early in the game has absolutely no bearing on med school admissions. You go to med school to become a physician first, then you specialize. The entrance requirements are in no way relaxed because you want to be a psychiatrist -- a psychiatrist is just as much a physician as any other medical doctor.

 

[Ishiguro]

OP, I don't know anything about GPA fixing or SMPs, but I'm curious about your area of interest... Have you considered a career as a clinical psychologist? This is a PhD-level position and, for the right person, a tremendously rewarding career intensely focused on giving care to individuals. Not to totally dissuade you from medical school-- the path to clinical psych would be a similarly long one and require a great deal of commitment, too-- but it would put you right in the field of mental health. I think Columbia has a program that grants some sort of certificate in psychology for people who didn't study psych as undergrads, and it seems to be a good jumping-off point for PhDs. Just a thought.

 

[AmIHopeless]

@Instatewaiter or anyone else who can chime in.

Can you clarify for me though what I should be trying to do first.

As it stands now, you may be able to get into some of the easier-to-get-into SMPs but even if you do superb in them you will be hardpressed to get into medical school.

After reading your response are you advocating doing my pre-reqs at a local university or telling me I should attempt to get into an SMP program with my current credentials?
My understanding is an SMP program does not make up for your pre-reqs so even if I did excel in an SMP program I still would not have the pre-reqs to apply to a Med program.

So I'm planning on completing my pre-req courses on my own before pursuing any other option(not in a formal post-bac program). If I do fairly well, it would a. confirm this is what I want to do and b. position me better for admission into an SMP/DO/Caribbean (it seems that MD program isn't an option ever). I think it would better position me because my BCMP GPA (assuming I do well) would contrast greatly with my undergraudate degree which might warrant a second look from an admission officer coupled with a strong MCAT score. Then I would make the decision to either enter an SMP program, DO, or caribbean program, with the ammunicaiton of a qualified BCMP and MCAT and a lacking cumulative GPA. Not ideal, but such is life.

Does this sound like a good plan?

Once again I appreciate all your comments.

 

[Perrotfish]

After reading your response are you advocating doing my pre-reqs at a local university or telling me I should attempt to get into an SMP program with my current credentials?
My understanding is an SMP program does not make up for your pre-reqs so even if I did excel in an SMP program I still would not have the pre-reqs to apply to a Med program.

That's correct. You need to do the prereqs first (ideally at a 4 year college, not a community college) and THEN apply to the SMP to make up for the low GPA. Whether you take the prereqs at a CC, 4 year college, or a formal post-bac program you would then, after than, need to do something else to get your application to the point where it's competitive.

So I'm planning on completing my pre-req courses on my own before pursuing any other option(not in a formal post-bac program). If I do fairly well, it would a. confirm this is what I want to do and b. position me better for admission into an SMP/DO/Caribbean (it seems that MD program isn't an option ever). I think it would better position me because my BCMP GPA (assuming I do well) would contrast greatly with my undergraudate degree which might warrant a second look from an admission officer coupled with a strong MCAT score. Then I would make the decision to either enter an SMP program, DO, or caribbean program, with the ammunicaiton of a qualified BCMP and MCAT and a lacking cumulative GPA. Not ideal, but such is life.

This is basically a good plan. To be clear, though, an SMP is a 1 year grad program, done at a mediacal school designed to improve your application to get you into an allopathic (MD) medical school, not an alternativie to getting an MD. Also, if you want to go MD/DO, in addition to SMP programs, you do have the option of just take more undergrad courses to improve your GPA. This option is especially worth looking into if you're going to try for DO schools: if you retake a course you took in undergrad, DO schools only take the most recent grade, so you can replace a lot of Cs with As in a hurry.

 

[Instatewaiter]

@Instatewaiter or anyone else who can chime in.

Can you clarify for me though what I should be trying to do first.


After reading your response are you advocating doing my pre-reqs at a local university or telling me I should attempt to get into an SMP program with my current credentials?
My understanding is an SMP program does not make up for your pre-reqs so even if I did excel in an SMP program I still would not have the pre-reqs to apply to a Med program.

So I'm planning on completing my pre-req courses on my own before pursuing any other option(not in a formal post-bac program). If I do fairly well, it would a. confirm this is what I want to do and b. position me better for admission into an SMP/DO/Caribbean (it seems that MD program isn't an option ever). I think it would better position me because my BCMP GPA (assuming I do well) would contrast greatly with my undergraudate degree which might warrant a second look from an admission officer coupled with a strong MCAT score. Then I would make the decision to either enter an SMP program, DO, or caribbean program, with the ammunicaiton of a qualified BCMP and MCAT and a lacking cumulative GPA. Not ideal, but such is life.

Does this sound like a good plan?

Once again I appreciate all your comments.

I guess my post was a bit confusing. Your course of action is going to depend on whether you are dead set on US MD or whether you would be OK with Carribean MD or DO.

Regardless the first 2 steps are to finish the pre-recs and then take the MCAT.

Once you do that, you have a choice to make. If you are cool with going to the carribean or DO schools then apply to those med schools after you take the pre-recs and the MCAT. You may or may not get in depending on how you do on the MCAT and your overall GPA. Applying will take a year (applications for the next summer begin in June) so it may not be a bad idea to take classes while applying so that you havent wasted a year if you dont get in.

If you are set on US MD, instead of applying, do the SMP which as Perrot said is a 1 year program where you take the first year of medical school to prove you can hang in medical school. This will also strengthen you application for DO schools and carribean schools if you happen not to get into US MD schools after the program.

Personally I think the best course of action is:
1) pre-recs and MCAT
2) Apply to SMPs after you finish MCAT
3) While doing SMP apply to DO schools, your state MD school and a few lower tier MD schools and the big 4 carribean schools.

You also need to get on volunteering, shadowing and clinical experience if you dont have too much of that. A lack of clinical experience shows a lack of interest.

 

[AmIHopeless]

You also need to get on volunteering, shadowing and clinical experience if you dont have too much of that. A lack of clinical experience shows a lack of interest.

I have none of that, as stated I was a business major and now work for a major financial instution in D.C.

Is there forgiveness/leeway if you're a full time professional who is taking night time pre-reqs, that you might not have the EC? I just don't know when it'd be possible if for the next year I worked from 8-6 and then did night classes 4 nights out of the week from 7-9:30? I feel like your interest is shown by taking night classes for a year and a half, that to me shows interest.

I could understand how an undergrad full time student or a part-time student would have these. But what about people who switch into this field at 30 for example, they will be lacking in this area. Can you explain this in an interview/admission statement?

Can you suggest any EC that are not time intensive (weekends only, if I'm taking classes during the week) that can show interest?

If things worked out perfectly, I would expect to work over the next year and a half, while finishing my pre-reqs. Then apply for admission into an SMP program, to position myself to try for a US MD program. If i were accepted into an SMP program at that point I would quit work and become a full time student. During this SMP year, I could do this EC work, but I don't how I could fit it in prior to that.

If I were rejected from an SMP program I'd probably then apply to DO school, and the Caribbean, I don't think it would have a huge impact on my residency since I want to pursue psychiatry, which from the feedback/research I've done isn't as intensely competitive as other disciplines. Out of curiosity anyone know why? I'm assuming everyone just wants to be a brain surgeon, etc.

Thoughts?

Again, thanks for baby stepping me through all of this.

 

[KiwiBruin]

AmIHopeless, I think you have more to prove than other applicants because you have a way lower GPA (compared to other medical school applicants with ~3.6's). You will definitely need Extracurriculars that show your interest in medicine. Volunteering at a hospital is 4 hours a week where I goto. Also, if you can shadow a doctor a few times that would be a great EC without too much time commitment. Since you are in a hole, I don't think you should expect it to be easy to climb out and get into a MD school. I am not sure if the Caribbean schools care about ECs but all the other ones will. Just do what you can on weekends.
I would suggest you study for the MCATs once you finish all your classes since I cant imagine you going to work + class + EC + MCAT studying since that seems crazy hard. Maybe if you start now and cover the topics as they go along with the MCAT materials...

Anyways good luck, but if you are serious, I would get started on those classes and extracurriculars and not expect this to be easy. (nor should it)

 

[Instatewaiter]

I have none of that, as stated I was a business major and now work for a major financial instution in D.C.

Is there forgiveness/leeway if you're a full time professional who is taking night time pre-reqs, that you might not have the EC? I just don't know when it'd be possible if for the next year I worked from 8-6 and then did night classes 4 nights out of the week from 7-9:30? I feel like your interest is shown by taking night classes for a year and a half, that to me shows interest.

I could understand how an undergrad full time student or a part-time student would have these. But what about people who switch into this field at 30 for example, they will be lacking in this area. Can you explain this in an interview/admission statement?

Can you suggest any EC that are not time intensive (weekends only, if I'm taking classes during the week) that can show interest?

If things worked out perfectly, I would expect to work over the next year and a half, while finishing my pre-reqs. Then apply for admission into an SMP program, to position myself to try for a US MD program. If i were accepted into an SMP program at that point I would quit work and become a full time student. During this SMP year, I could do this EC work, but I don't how I could fit it in prior to that.

If I were rejected from an SMP program I'd probably then apply to DO school, and the Caribbean, I don't think it would have a huge impact on my residency since I want to pursue psychiatry, which from the feedback/research I've done isn't as intensely competitive as other disciplines. Out of curiosity anyone know why? I'm assuming everyone just wants to be a brain surgeon, etc.

Thoughts?

Again, thanks for baby stepping me through all of this.

Unfortunately for you, there is no way around getting solid clinical exposure.

A few things you can do:
1) volunteer at a hospital- minimal clinical exposure and doesnt look all that good but probably easy to get into.

2) volunteer at a free clinic- great clinical exposure and very hands on. Will look very good. You can probably find one where you will work a few hours on the weekends. Doing this for just a few months will look good

3) shadowing- again a few hours each time shadowing 5-10 docs on weekends will go a long way as to show that you have thought out the decision and you know what you are getting yourself into.

Look at the ECs as proving you want to be there. A med school is making an investment in each student. They want to make sure the student belongs and wants to be there. People who are likely to drop out, like those havent shown they have made an informed decision, are not going to get accepted because the schools have too much to lose to take a chance.

Remember that there are 6000-12000 applicants applicants vying for 100 or so slots at each school. There is a lot of competition. You have to be better than them. It's not like undergrad where there are 2 or 3 applicants per spot. In medical school there are 60-100 applicants per seat in the class.

 

[not so calm now]

I'm surprised no one's mentioned the career-changers' postbacs, though I'm assuming it's because those generally have higher GPA averages than SMPs. That's also something you could look into. VCU has one, as does UVA. I'm not sure about VCUs, but UVA's average GPA is a 3.5-3.6 to get in there, but you take all prereqs and it has an mcat prep component.

I also work full-time, so I understand your predicament. I'm tired after I get off work! However, I still take classes at night, and I volunteer at a clinic on the weekends. Usually low cost/free clinics have at least some open hours outside of 8-5 to accomodate patients, whether it's in the evening or on weekends, so that's definitely something you could look into.

 

[Perrotfish]

Is there forgiveness/leeway if you're a full time professional who is taking night time pre-reqs, that you might not have the EC? I just don't know when it'd be possible if for the next year I worked from 8-6 and then did night classes 4 nights out of the week from 7-9:30? I feel like your interest is shown by taking night classes for a year and a half, that to me shows interest.

Forigiveness only at DO schools for classes you have retaken, and no other leeway under any circumsatances. They don't give a **** about your problems (and won't, until you're done with residency). Sorry, I know it's not fair and it doesn't make sense. Also, when exactly are you planning to study here? 2.5 hours/day of class is supposed to mean you're studying an additional 5 hours outside of class, probably more for a premed. Really, a 1.5 year postbac to get the prereqs is almost as fast as you can do this, and is normally associated with a full time post-bac rather than something you do after you get home from your job at 6 p.m. You might want to consider adding year to your timeline and then cutting back on your coursework in a given year. Or going to a full time postbac. Also, make sure you even have to option of doing this at night. Lab classes are generally hard to find night classes for, and finding a set of lab classes that doesn't conflict with eachother in that 2.5 hour timeslot will be pretty near impossible.

I could understand how an undergrad full time student or a part-time student would have these. But what about people who switch into this field at 30 for example, they will be lacking in this area. Can you explain this in an interview/admission statement?

You need to get the experience. It doesn't matter how od you are, you pretty much need to get clinical exposure.

If things worked out perfectly, I would expect to work over the next year and a half, while finishing my pre-reqs. Then apply for admission into an SMP program, to position myself to try for a US MD program. If i were accepted into an SMP program at that point I would quit work and become a full time student. During this SMP year, I could do this EC work, but I don't how I could fit it in prior to that.

Once you start an SMP, I guarentee you will need every minute of your time to pass the SMP. For that matter the SMP probably won't take you unless the rest of your AMCAS application, other than your GPA, is pretty much good to go.

If I were rejected from an SMP program I'd probably then apply to DO school, and the Caribbean, I don't think it would have a huge impact on my residency since I want to pursue psychiatry, which from the feedback/research I've done isn't as intensely competitive as other disciplines. Out of curiosity anyone know why? I'm assuming everyone just wants to be a brain surgeon, etc.

Alright, DO school is still very difficult. Average matriculant: 3.4 and a 27. Really the path to DO is the same as the path to MD, except that they allow for grade replacement which might make an extra couple of years of Undergrad and more viable alternative to an SMP. You'd still need either an SMP or a lot of extra undergrad to get you in.

Caribbean IS an alternitive to the SMP, and you could get there much faster. If you're interested in going that route, looking into the formal post-bac programs at the top 4 Caribbean schools: I believe they all have a very high linkage to the Carib medical school and might give you a good idea of what they're like. The problem with Carb schools is that, unlike US schools, they fail a LOT of people out (sticking them with hundreds of thousands of debt), and even if you pass there's a very real chance you won't get a residency in ANY field. And if you do manage to get a residency in a low paying field like IM or psyche there's a chance you'll never be able to achieve a decent standard of living with your gigantic, unsubsidized, non-government loans that are you're only option for those schools. So, yeah, it's the fast way (you could be a doctor in 5 years if you scrambled), but not necessarily the best.

Finally, I don't think you know enough about medicine to be SURE that want to go Psyche (and chances are your interview will agree0 You just really won't know what various specialties do until you've rotate through all the different specialties in 3rd and 4th year, especially with the negligable amount of clinical experience you've had. The various sterotypes of what professions do have very little to do with what they actually do ay to day. If all you want is talking to people on a couch type psychological stuff, get a PhD in psychology and become a clinical psychologist. You could probably start this fall.

Anyway, good luck. If you want this you can do this, and many have before.

 

[AmIHopeless]

Thanks for the great responses everyone. I am taking the first steps now towards a very long road, by registering for classes. I have a dilemma though.

Because I work 9-5 the course times I can attend are very limited. What has happened this summer, when I plan to enroll, is that I can either take 100 level physics (general) at a 4 year school George Mason University, or I can take college physics 200 level at Northern Virginia Community College. I really don't know what to do, I'm leaning towards GMU, despite the lower level. Suggestions please.

After really looking into this and checking requirements and possible scenarios. It seems that because I am a Virginia resident my best shot with my GPA for SMP and MD school are either EVMS or VCU. I've checked the pre-reqs on both sites and they both accept general or introductury physics. Meaning I would meet the requirement with either physics.

What do you guys recommend? I'm pondering calling the admissions office and asking, but that seems a bit forward to me.

 

[Perrotfish]

A 4 year is always better than a 2 year college and if it meets their requirement no medical school will care that it's a '100' instead of a '200' level course. Enjoy Mason. Also make sure you look into EVMS's SMP for when you're done with the prereqs.

 

[ama75]

Caribbean IS an alternitive to the SMP, and you could get there much faster. If you're interested in going that route, looking into the formal post-bac programs at the top 4 Caribbean schools: I believe they all have a very high linkage to the Carib medical school and might give you a good idea of what they're like. The problem with Carb schools is that, unlike US schools, they fail a LOT of people out (sticking them with hundreds of thousands of debt), and even if you pass there's a very real chance you won't get a residency in ANY field. And if you do manage to get a residency in a low paying field like IM or psyche there's a chance you'll never be able to achieve a decent standard of living with your gigantic, unsubsidized, non-government loans that are you're only option for those schools.

What if you're a Carib grad and you land an ACGME-approved internal med residency in the states...are you saying you will have a tougher time getting into a higher paying subspecialty than someone who graduated from a US med school? Thanks.

 

[Perrotfish]

What if you're a Carib grad and you land an ACGME-approved internal med residency in the states...are you saying you will have a tougher time getting into a higher paying subspecialty than someone who graduated from a US med school? Thanks.

Interesting question, I have no idea. You will have a harder time getting the residency in the first place. Once you get it, I have no idea if your choice of medical school will follow you into fellowship apps. The residency you got would probably be less prestious than you would have gotten otherwise, maybe that would affect your chances of fellowships? Then again maybe your perfomance in residency is really all they care about. Really, I have no idea. There is a Caribbean forum on SDN, try posting a question there.

 

[HansSpemann]

You might also want to look into osteopathic postbacc programs, too: PCOM and AZCCOM have them

 

[AmIHopeless]

From what I gather of the Original Poster, there is indication that his initial degree was not in a science. Therefore, my advice is to do a postbac in a science field. Aim for as close to a 4.0 as possible and that will bring the overall GPA to a 3.0. Do that for 60 credit hours and you'll get a second degree, your prereqs plus additional science courses, and you'll have shown a strong upward trend.

Take the MCAT. Use your 2 years to do volunteer activities and other ECs more geared towards medicine i.e. shadowing, maybe a job in a clinical envt etc.

Think about what you want to write in your ps in that time and you'll be fine. But I think a postbac is more appropriate.

SMPs are for people at the end of the road last chance sorta deal. or those with too many science credits to the point that doing more ugrad courses would be futile and a waste of time.

Guju,

My original degree was in Finance. So my science GPA is non-existant, which is a plus for me from what I can tell.

As you mentioned it will probably take me 1.5-2 years to finish the pre-reqs. During this time I'm planning on beefing up my ECs, my current plan is to start volunteering at a free clinic every other Saturday morning to start with and try to get more invovled in ad-hoc volunterrig (Race for the cure, etc)

The only part of your advice where I have to delineate is going through a formal post bac program. Due to my current GPA I can't enter a post bac program. The min req for even the lower ones seems to be 3.0, so I have to do an informal postbac. If you know something that I don't about getting into a postbac program I'd be interested to hear it. But as it currently stands, I think my only/best option is to do it through night courses at my local 4 year university (GMU).

Also, I'm not defaulting to an SMP, I don't think I'm at the end of my road so to speak. After finishing the MCAT, I will apply to med schools and SMPS at the same time. It just seems to me that I'll need to go through an SMP proving ground, to gain the credibility I need to enter a US med school even if I manage to bring my undergrad GPA up to a 3.0. And I mentioned the Virginia based ones, because they give preference to in state applicants.

Your thoughts?

 

[AmIHopeless]

You and I are actually saying one in the same!!! In other words, by mentioning words postbac, I did not ever mention a formal vs. informal postbac.

I define postbac as doing any second bachelor's degree or otherwise taking bachelor's level courses post graduating of a first bachelor's degree even if no degree is obtained. I advised only that you do more postbac courses meaning the prereqs and if you want a few higher level courses such as genetics, biochem, cell bio, etc. Or otherwise consider going 2 years and getting a second bachelors degree if that is possible. Either or so long as you've shown 40-60 science credits since you have no science background. That is essentially what I believe you are aiming to do. I have simply suggested that if you do well in such and do a great job on the MCAT and get a few great ECs in you will be fine without an SMP.

Applying to the SMP while applying to med school is actually not a bad idea as it is a backup. Applying to one to do one while applying without giving it a shot without the SMP however is not worth it because you may not even need it.

Out of curiousity what is your home state? Some states like California are tougher but some like Fl. and Tx. are a bit easier to work with.

My home state is VA. So I'm looking at Virginia Commonwealth University (VCU) and Eastern Virginia Medical School. Both have SMP programs and their med programs don't seem impossible hard to get into in comparison with others. There is also UVA but, there is no chance on god's green earth that I can make myself competitive for that school

 

[AmIHopeless]

Does anyone know the adcom directors for VCU or EVMS? I'm not quite sure who I should be contacting.

Also, do I just call them and explain I have two years till I apply, what would you like to see on an application aside from a GPA and MCAT. Do some schools put higher value on certain ECs than others? (i.e. tailor my app to these schools) If so, anyone know if VCU or EVMS give preference to any specific EC.