is there any chance at all for me?

[tig8]

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Hi fellow forum members
I'm planning to dive into applications and I really need to know if there is any chance for me
here are my stats:

ugrad gpa: 3.28 mechanical engineering @ Virginia tech
masters gpa: 3.56 biomedical engineering @ USC
1 year research at VT with publication
1 year research at USC no publication
currently doing volunteer reasearch at a hospital laboratory
and planning to do shadowing so total of reaserch would be around 3 years
I'm waiting for mcat score (aug 27) but I think I can get around 37-8
I can get good rec letters

right now I'm waiting for the mcat scores and if they are good I'm planning to apply this year, but I'm also considering a master premed program and apply next year
and my third option would be to apply only for Phd this year and try to get into a double major MD later

that undergraduate gpa is just killing me, everytime I think about it I stress alot
I really want to be a medical scientists and I really like research
so what do you guys think?

apply this year? apply next year?
do I even have any chances?

thanks

I forgot to add a big factor, I'm not a USA resident or citizen. international FML!

 

[Josh7]

You're in need of a stellar MCAT score to stand a chance. I think the graduate school research helps a bit though. Did you have a senior thesis during undergrad and a masters thesis?

 

[tig8]

they were both non thesis, the publication was from a 1 year "senior design" for credit
and the graduate research was directed research that I came close to publishing
I think one more semester and it would have been publishable material

do I have better chances just applying to only md programs? since I have a masters then I think I could still do research even if I don't have a Phd

 

[Fencer]

... I forgot to add a big factor, I'm not a USA resident or citizen. international FML!

Here is the most critical problem, there were 11 out of 633 (1.7%) MD/PhD students in the class matriculating in 2011. Would you be able to apply for PR statuts? or go for PhD or MD (less likely) school? but going for MD/PhD is way harder.... At this point, you can't change your GPAs...

data: https://www.aamc.org/download/161874/data/table34-mdphd-raceeth-state-2011.pdf (see bottom of page 2)

sorry for the reality check

 

[tig8]

I don't think I will be able to apply for permanent residency anytime soon
I heard I was more likely to get in a MD/Phd program than in an MD alone program as an international
but those numbers are sure very discouraging

I think I can get into a Phd program and I also can fund myself for MD but I would have to get myself accepted first

If I aim for the Phd program alone then I would have to change my plans asap and retake the GRE and forget about anything MCAT

But I really want to be in an MD/Phd program so if there is a chance I would like to give it a try

 

[Fencer]

"I really want to be in an MD/Phd program so if there is a chance I would like to give it a try"

You must apply because o/w you will kick yourself the rest of your life for not trying. You might end up been one of those 11 internationals for this cycle. However, a clear and well defined plan B is needed given the odds for plan A. The easiest path for plan B is getting into a PhD program.

PM me if you have additional questions. I know that in a few weeks the AAMC MD/PhD section will place some updated data from a survey to MD/PhD program directors including a question which programs accept international students.

 

[Neuronix]

But I really want to be in an MD/Phd program so if there is a chance I would like to give it a try

IMO, Fencer is an optimist. Program directors typically are. In my less qualified than Fencer's opinion, you would have little chance as an American with that GPA, depending on MCAT score (high score low chance, less than 34 no chance). I think you have essentially no chance without green card/citizenship. As mentioned, positions for internationals are extremely rare, and as such they go to applicants essentially without application blemishes.

 

[tig8]

thanks Fencer
and yes I will definitely kick myself for the rest of my life if I don't at least try
I do have a back up plan and that is the Phd route

can you please post that updated data here, it sure will help me a bunch or any other international student out there

I think I'm too late this cycle so I would apply next year I just want to do all I can during the time between to maximize my chances, I'm also considering other countries

 

[tig8]

As mentioned, positions for internationals are extremely rare, and as such they go to applicants essentially without application blemishes.

yes I'm aware of this, I'm just hoping some programs will put less emphasis on grades and more on rec letters and the interview. I think I can get some pretty solid rec letters and I can probably do better at interviews than traditional applicants.

anyone have any idea on what programs would be willing to overlook gpa? if I study for the next application cycle I'm confident I can get a high MCAT score 36+
so only gpa and citizenship would be my weak points

 

[Neuronix]

yes I'm aware of this, I'm just hoping some programs will put less emphasis on grades and more on rec letters and the interview. I think I can get some pretty solid rec letters and I can probably do better at interviews than traditional applicants.

90% of applicants do excellent in interviews and with LORs. They are more a filter for the rare person who interviews poorly or is a closet nutjob. Honestly, interviews are more of a sales pitch to you than you are to them. GPA, MCAT, and research experience are still by far the most important.

I doubt you will get many, if any interviews, based on that GPA and being international. If you have a 40 MCAT you might pull interviews, but I still think you'd be a very long shot.

 

[tig8]

Thanks for the honesty Neuronix
what would you advice me to do?
I'm considering caribean MD only programs, oversees programs, and Phd only programs
also DO programs but I hear they are bad for research
anyone with good advice is welcome btw, this is not only for Neuronix

 

[snobored18]

Thanks for the honesty Neuronix
what would you advice me to do?
I'm considering caribean MD only programs, oversees programs, and Phd only programs
also DO programs but I hear they are bad for research
anyone with good advice is welcome btw, this is not only for Neuronix

If you really want a research career stay clear of the DO/Caribbean MD route. Those are fine if you want to get into FM/Peds/IM private practice at some point, but won't prepare you all that well for a research heavy career in academic medicine. If you want to stay in something like biomechanical engineering, you'll probably do very well with going the PhD-only route. Unfortunately, I'm not sure I can say the same for non-engineering PhDs right now, there are jsut way to many biomedical PhDs being granted and not nearly enough jobs or funding.

 

[tig8]

I'm not sure I can say the same for non-engineering PhDs right now, there are jsut way to many biomedical PhDs being granted and not nearly enough jobs or funding.

yeah if I go the Phd route then it would be in engineering
I'm also thinking to go to a Phd program and while in there apply for a double major MD
maybe if I'm already a student in the same university it would be easier for me to get in medical school, and if not I would still be a Phd student

what do you guys think of this plan?

 

[snobored18]

maybe if I'm already a student in the same university it would be easier for me to get in medical school, and if not I would still be a Phd student

what do you guys think of this plan?

Bear in mind it is pretty easy to make the jump from MD-->MD/PhD and nearly impossible to go from PhD-->MD/PhD. I wouldn't select my PhD program based on the shot in the dark you might be able to slide into an MD/PhD slot after a few years, I've watched several US citizen PhD students apply internally and sadly I don't even think the MSTP elected to interview either of them (from what I could tell they were stronger graduate students, but MSTPs are just that competitive). I imagine it would be even tougher without PR status.

I'll reiterate what Fencer said above, figure out the MD/PhD programs accept applications from international applicants with your residency status and apply to those. Someone might see something in your app and this entire discussion would be rendered moot. Then I'd pick out a handful of PhD programs that are strong in your area of interest and apply to those...you should be o.k. from the PhD admissions stand-point.

 

[tig8]

Bear in mind it is pretty easy to make the jump from MD-->MD/PhD and nearly impossible to go from PhD-->MD/PhD.

then I guess going for a Phd only route will be pretty much like giving up on medical school
thanks I will keep that in mind

I'll reiterate what Fencer said above, figure out the MD/PhD programs accept applications from international applicants with your residency status and apply to those. Someone might see something in your app and this entire discussion would be rendered moot. Then I'd pick out a handful of PhD programs that are strong in your area of interest and apply to those...you should be o.k. from the PhD admissions stand-point.

I have already made a list of what medical schools accept international applicants
most schools with a mstp program say they do but the numbers show otherwise
I think I will just apply like you said maybe someone will make and exception with me
worst case scenario I dont get into any program and I get set 1 or 2 years back for Phd
but I wouldn't be considering an mstp program if I was concerned with my graduation age

Thanks for the insight

 

[Neuronix]

then I guess going for a Phd only route will be pretty much like giving up on medical school
thanks I will keep that in mind

You could consider MD after PhD, but if you start a PhD program you will have to finish it first. Even then it will be very hard to get into medical school as an international. They will still look unfavorably upon your undergraduate GPA. But it might give you time to become a US citizen or permanent resident.

You won't have the option to "transfer" to an MD/PhD program from a PhD program. Even in the case of going from MD to MD/PhD, this would be highly unusual as an international, and I wouldn't expect medical school funding.

 

[tig8]

what do you guys think of special master programs?
I'm planning to go to one and apply to mstp and MD/Phd for 2014 with the best application I can make
maybe if I get all A's and a 40 MCAT I will have a chance? I would have to study like a mad man
and then If I fail I will go to Phd and just enjoy being an engineer

I just wish I had cared more when I was in undergraduate, I took the prereqs but I wasnt serious at all about medical school. I didnt even know how hard it is for non residents