Is there any truth to this about the Caribbeans...

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where do IMGs fit in this? They can apply to both DO and MD res programs as well but will face even MORE discrimination?
 
I concur. I also surmise that if people don't aren't match, it's for a reason. I remember one in of my least favorite Classes, a good number of them had to scramble, because they only applied to one program, and/or aimed for programs for which they were not competitive for.

Lucca said:
We will have to see. I highly doubt a USMD with a weak application is going to beat a DO with a strong application and it remains to be seen how the spots will distribute themselves following the merger. There just isn't enough data to say anything meaningful. My (uneducated) guess? USMDs win out but DOs will have more opportunities than they had before.
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All the Clinical Deans I speak to about this (and to people well connected to the higher echelons of the AOA) believe that this will be the case. As the wise gyngyn has eloquently stated multiple time, Carib IMGs have a negative behavior list of differentials that is well known to PDs.

where do IMGs fit in this? They can apply to both DO and MD res programs as well but will face even MORE discrimination?
 
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lmn said:
Are you serious? These schools have generally poor averages EVEN THOUGH they make their students take pre-tests and kick them out of their programs if they aren't scoring high enough. Med schools are supposed to teach you the information necessary to be a good physician as well as to help you be successful on board exams. If the vast majority of their students aren't doing well, it is clearly a fault of the program, and if you read anywhere on here or in other places from students who have gone to those schools, you would get a sense of how pathetically they are taught.
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I have read that most of the first two years is self-study anyways. Also, what would be the other option for your cousins? They are now doctors, otherwise they would be what? Lab techs?
 
Goro said:
As the wise gyngyn has eloquently stated multiple time, Carib IMGs have a negative behavior list of differentials that is well known to PDs.
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Does that mean that they do not perform well? What about a Caribean graduate with very high USMLE scores? Like in the 99 percentile? Thank you so much
 
boxer0011 said:
Does that mean that they do not perform well? What about a Caribean graduate with very high USMLE scores? Like in the 99 percentile? Thank you so much
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Second this question. I know somebody who just got back from SGU with a score higher than 250 on the USLME and is currently in third year rotations. He doesn't know how residency will work out just yet when I asked him about it. "One day at a time" he said lol
 
DetectiveAlonzo said:
Second this question. I know somebody who just got back from SGU with a score higher than 250 on the USLME and is currently in third year rotations. He doesn't know how residency will work out just yet when I asked him about it. "One day at a time" he said lol
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There's a time and a place for the "one day at a time" mentality, but the problem with it is that it often leads to myopia.
 
Quoting the exceptionally sage @gyngyn:

"The pool of US applicants from the Caribbean is viewed differently by Program Directors.

The differential diagnosis (the potential etiology) for this finding is not pretty.
It includes: Institutional Actions, parental pressure, egotism, weak judgment, inability to delay gratification, poor research skills, gullibility, high risk behavior...

This is not to say that all of them still have the quality that drew them into this situation. There is just no way to know which ones they are. Some PD's are in a position where they need to take risks too! So some do get interviews.

A strong academic showing in a Caribbean medical school does not erase this stigma. It fact it increases the perception that the reason for the choice was on the above-mentioned list!"

boxer0011 said:
Does that mean that they do not perform well? What about a Caribean graduate with very high USMLE scores? Like in the 99 percentile? Thank you so much
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Goro said:
Quoting the exceptionally sage @gyngyn:

"The pool of US applicants from the Caribbean is viewed differently by Program Directors.

The differential diagnosis (the potential etiology) for this finding is not pretty.
It includes: Institutional Actions, parental pressure, egotism, weak judgment, inability to delay gratification, poor research skills, gullibility, high risk behavior...

This is not to say that all of them still have the quality that drew them into this situation. There is just no way to know which ones they are. Some PD's are in a position where they need to take risks too! So some do get interviews.

A strong academic showing in a Caribbean medical school does not erase this stigma. It fact it increases the perception that the reason for the choice was on the above-mentioned list!"
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Wow... PDs go quite in depth huh? simply based off of where folks went to school? Interesting!
 
boxer0011 said:
Does that mean that they do not perform well? What about a Caribean graduate with very high USMLE scores? Like in the 99 percentile? Thank you so much
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First point is that the percentile number means absolutely nothing. The 3 digit score is what anyone cares about.

Another point is that most people who go to carribean schools are not good test takers. Most of then have terrible MCAT scores. Believe it or not, standardized test taking is a skill and there are trends between step 1 and the MCAT. There are exceptions to any trend. Do you want to bet 300,000 dollars on yourself with the possibility of having nothing to show for it if you fail?
 
AspiringERMD said:
There's a time and a place for the "one day at a time" mentality, but the problem with it is that it often leads to myopia.
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Haha very true. I hope he gets into residency. The guy truly worked his butt off to get where he's at. But then again, to make it outta the carib I'm sure you have no choice.
 
tiedyeddog said:
First point is that the percentile number means absolutely nothing. The 3 digit score is what anyone cares about.

Another point is that most people who go to carribean schools are not good test takers. Most of then have terrible MCAT scores. Believe it or not, standardized test taking is a skill and there are trends between step 1 and the MCAT. There are exceptions to any trend. Do you want to bet 300,000 dollars on yourself with the possibility of having nothing to show for it if you fail?
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Very true. Except this guy that I mentioned had a 26 MCAT when he applied a couple years ago.. honest, hardworking fellow.
 
While I think there will be a upsurge in MDs "taking" DO spots, I think it has to be taken in mind that up until now DOs have had the option of trying to match into MD spots. So while there may be the appearance of a sudden grabbing up of spots favoring MDs, I think it will be more akin to finally equlibriating things that have been kept uneven to date. Further, I think it likely that traditionally DO programs will still keep some level of favoritism to DO applicants in the same way that there is till a tinge of favoritism against DOs applying into MD programs. Over time this may gradually wash away as the new process takes hold, but I would predict in 30 years that hospitals affiliated with DO schools will still be taking mostly DO grads, and hospitals with MD affilliations will be still taking mostly MD grads. Tribalism.
 
And as for the parental pressure.... this is VERYYYYY evident in the specific person in my case.
 
SouthernSurgeon said:
Also important to note that the 2-digit score is NOT a percentile, it is simply a 2-digit score. a 99 2-digit was historically most decidedly not 99th % - more like 80th and above. And then to make matters more confusing, they changed the conversion in 2010 or 2011 - so what used to be a 99 was more like an 85 or something

This is why they've officially retired the 2-digit score because it caused so much confusion.
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Good point.
 
boxer0011 said:
Does that mean that they do not perform well? What about a Caribean graduate with very high USMLE scores? Like in the 99 percentile? Thank you so much
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Don't get too hung up on USMLE -- an offshore person scoring well is still regarded as an offshore person. You can ace that test and you've really proved nothing to anybody. What the test DOESNT do is say someone is adequately or comparably schooled. These tests are important differentiation tools for use within the different categories -- the high scoring US allo grad looks better than the low scoring US allo grad, the high scoring offshore applicant looks better than the low scoring offshore applicant. But it's pretty much never used to vault an offshore applicant over a US applicant -- the offshore applicant always loses that head to head competition because he lacks the all important equivalent rotations. I.e. What that test does not do is tell PDs the person is prepared to be a US resident, something the LCME approved rotations do a pretty good job preparing for. So basically you must score much much much higher on the test than your US counterpart to do much much much worse in the match.
 
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Law2Doc said:
Don't get too hung up on USMLE -- an offshore person scoring well is still regarded as an offshore person. You can ace that test and you've really proved nothing to anybody. What the test DOESNT do is say someone is adequately or comparably schooled. These tests are important differentiation tools for use within the different categories -- the high scoring US allo grad looks better than the low scoring US allo grad, the high scoring offshore applicant looks better than the low scoring offshore applicant. But it's pretty much never used to vault an offshore applicant over a US applicant -- the offshore applicant always loses that head to head competition because he lacks the all important equivalent rotations. I.e. What that test does not do is tell PDs the person is prepared to be a US resident, something the LCME approved rotations do a pretty good job preparing for. So basically you must score much much much higher on the test than your US counterpart to do much much much worse in the match.
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What are some reasons for why a PD would take an offshore grad for his/her program?
 
Keep in mind that the majority, if not all, of the Caribbean schools teach to the USMLE. They'll drill you with internal exams meant to simulate the Step 1 and based on your performance would they even allow you to take the real thing and advance to the next year.

They also give you a ridiculous amount of study time for Step 1. Students have told me they studied 4-6 months for it (dedicated study time), while my stateside friends study in about 1/4 that time. I'm never impressed with a Caribbean grad with good board scores. With that amount of time and practice, the least of my expectations is for them to break 240+.
 
So essentially, if a ross or sgu student makes it to rotations... and has scored well on the USMLE... they are STILL at a disadvantage when it comes times to applying for residency since they are still IMG? that sucks lol

Also, is it a general notion that the quality of their rotation sites are inferior or garbage compared to those that US students go through? I mean, they do have sites in places like Los Angeles (which is where our family friend is) where you'd think the types of stuff they see and learn are pretty solid compared to somewhere more rural?

I'm just curious as to how many factors go into this process and why where you go matters.
 
iniquus said:
Keep in mind that the majority, if not all, of the Caribbean schools teach to the USMLE. They'll drill you with internal exams meant to simulate the Step 1 and based on your performance would they even allow you to take the real thing and advance to the next year.

They also give you a ridiculous amount of study time for Step 1. Students have told me they studied 4-6 months for it (dedicated study time), while my stateside friends study in about 1/4 that time. I'm never impressed with a Caribbean grad with good board scores. With that amount of time and practice, the least of my expectations is for them to break 240+.
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VERY TRUE. This guy also told me that Kaplan test prep held a course that his Carib med school paid for before he took the real thing.
 
DetectiveAlonzo said:
So essentially, if a ross or sgu student makes it to rotations... and has scored well on the USMLE... they are STILL at a disadvantage when it comes times to applying for residency since they are still IMG? that sucks lol

Also, is it a general notion that the quality of their rotation sites are inferior or garbage compared to those that US students go through? I mean, they do have sites in places like Los Angeles (which is where our family friend is) where you'd think the types of stuff they see and learn are pretty solid compared to somewhere more rural?

I'm just curious as to how many factors go into this process and why where you go matters.
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The rotations are at places the schools have managed to set up contracts with. Having rotated as a resident through some of these I can tell you (1) they are typically a very Lite version of what a US med student experiences, (2) do not meet the LCME requirements or expectations in a Multitude of ways, and (3) because this is a nice cash stream for some of the hospitals that enter these contracts, they bend over backwards to make sure the offshore students "enjoy" their rotations (which often translates to cushy schedules, fewer repercussions for mediocrity and a lot of sheltering from the less desirable tasks.) Your analysis of city vs rural totally misses the point - a useless rotation in a great setting still is useless.


Look, I am not sure how to say this any clearer -- offshore doesn't present the same opportunity. Doesn't matter how well you score. Doesn't matter that you think a rotation in LA should equal every other rotation in LA. At the end of the day the offshore grad is going to struggle, in ways the worst of the US allo med students won't. And PDs will be totally reasonable in taking this approach because what the offshore schools provide pales to what LCME requires of and for the US counterparts. So if you go offshore you will pay a Ton of money and work very hard to be at the low end of consideration for some of the least desirable residency slots. And that's today -- there will be even fewer such slots in 4-5 years. I didn't make the rules, so no point arguing.
 
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DetectiveAlonzo said:
So essentially, if a ross or sgu student makes it to rotations... and has scored well on the USMLE... they are STILL at a disadvantage when it comes times to applying for residency since they are still IMG? that sucks lol
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From what I've heard, yes. I have heard there is almost always too many students per rotation site and there is often very little teaching. I have heard of some IMG people going through their OB rotations and never seeing a c-section or delivering a baby themselves. I have heard of people doing their surgery rotation and never scrubbing in because their school insurance does not cover that/or the preceptors don't want students in the OR. I have heard of students doing a rotation and never being given EMR access, thus they are not looking up anything to do with their patients. Add in the fact that these people often have trouble getting decent letters from preceptors due to switching sites/not having student contact.

Often what it boils down to is an attending/institution/hospital/whatever is given X amount of cash to take on these students. Often there is no quality control of the actual content of the rotation.
 
Law2Doc said:
The rotations are at places the schools have managed to set up contracts with. Having rotated as a resident through some of these I can tell you (1) they are typically a very Lite version of what a US med student experiences, (2) do not meet the LCME requirements or expectations in a Multitude of ways, and (3) because this is a nice cash stream for some of the hospitals that enter these contracts, they bend over backwards to make sure the offshore students "enjoy" their rotations (which often translates to cushy schedules, fewer repercussions for mediocrity and a lot of sheltering from the less desirable tasks.) Your analysis of city vs rural totally misses the point - a useless rotation in a great setting still is useless.


Look, I am not sure how to say this any clearer -- offshore doesn't present the same opportunity. Doesn't matter how well you score. Doesn't matter that you think a rotation in LA should equal every other rotation in LA. At the end of the day the offshore grad is going to struggle, in ways the worst of the US allo med students won't. And PDs will be totally reasonable in taking this approach because what the offshore schools provide pales to what LCME requires of and for the US counterparts. So if you go offshore you will pay a Ton of money and work very hard to be at the low end of consideration for some of the least desirable residency slots. And that's today -- there will be even fewer such slots in 4-5 years. I didn't make the rules, so no point arguing.
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Thanks for clarifying and the detailed responses. Idk much about this process in terms of what to do in medical school as I am trying to get in first lol.
I apologize hampering you with questions but I am just trying to learn more from folks who have successfully matriculated, passed, and are actual working physicians (like residents such as yourself). I am in no way, shape, or form applying or contemplating going offshore but am constantly hearing about people who came from schools offshore and are doing rotations, or going to the carib, and I feel I just needed to know more about this process as a whole and how it differs for folks like me who want to stay here and for folks who want instant gratification and leave right away. Sorry for getting you riled up (IDK if i did but then again, reading into something in another person's voice seems to invoke a different tone for me sometimes).
 
DetectiveAlonzo said:
Also, is it a general notion that the quality of their rotation sites are inferior or garbage compared to those that US students go through? I mean, they do have sites in places like Los Angeles (which is where our family friend is) where you'd think the types of stuff they see and learn are pretty solid compared to somewhere more rural?
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So, this is all anecdotal, but I rotated with at least >10 Caribbean students at 2 separate sites. It was scary how much they tried to game the system (leaving early, manipulating the residents, doing the least amount of work, etc.). It was also frightening how little clinical knowledge they knew, especially practical knowledge. They told me their grading rubric was almost entirely based on clinical evaluation (the shelf barely counted in their grade).
 
Law2Doc said:
The rotations are at places the schools have managed to set up contracts with. Having rotated as a resident through some of these I can tell you (1) they are typically a very Lite version of what a US med student experiences, (2) do not meet the LCME requirements or expectations in a Multitude of ways, and (3) because this is a nice cash stream for some of the hospitals that enter these contracts, they bend over backwards to make sure the offshore students "enjoy" their rotations (which often translates to cushy schedules, fewer repercussions for mediocrity and a lot of sheltering from the less desirable tasks.) Your analysis of city vs rural totally misses the point - a useless rotation in a great setting still is useless.


Look, I am not sure how to say this any clearer -- offshore doesn't present the same opportunity. Doesn't matter how well you score. Doesn't matter that you think a rotation in LA should equal every other rotation in LA. At the end of the day the offshore grad is going to struggle, in ways the worst of the US allo med students won't. And PDs will be totally reasonable in taking this approach because what the offshore schools provide pales to what LCME requires of and for the US counterparts. So if you go offshore you will pay a Ton of money and work very hard to be at the low end of consideration for some of the least desirable residency slots. And that's today -- there will be even fewer such slots in 4-5 years. I didn't make the rules, so no point arguing.
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So being a US student at the time, you were given more exposure essentially rather than the carib students?
 
iniquus said:
So, this is all anecdotal, but I rotated with at least >10 Caribbean students at 2 separate sites. It was scary how much they tried to game the system (leaving early, manipulating the residents, doing the least amount of work, etc.). It was also frightening how little clinical knowledge they knew, especially practical knowledge. They told me their grading rubric was almost entirely based on clinical evaluation (the shelf barely counted in their grade).
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Wow. This actually happens? How were they able to manipulate residents? But on the same note, doesn't the attending or whomever that writes their letters or signs off on their rotations and grades them take this into account?
 
DetectiveAlonzo said:
Wow. This actually happens? How were they able to manipulate residents? But on the same note, doesn't the attending or whomever that writes their letters or signs off on their rotations and grades them take this into account?
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When you get to your clinical years, you'll see that clinical evaluations are incredibly subjective and attending-dependent. Comments can be quite generic and made up completely. It has to do with how little time you spend with your attending, and how busy they are that they're more likely to go down a column when grading you. You'll be graded more accurately probably at the extremes of the spectrum, but for the majority of students who are above average will find it difficult how to bump their grade up a notch.
 
DetectiveAlonzo said:
So being a US student at the time, you were given more exposure essentially rather than the carib students?
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I was a US allo resident, not a med student. (you'd rarely find US med students and foreign med students doing med school rotations at the same places). The attendings worked with the residents who rotated through - very different dynamic. The offshore med students by contrast were basically there to be entertained, in hopes they'd give their "rotation" a nice review and keep the cash flow going.
 
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DetectiveAlonzo said:
Wow. This actually happens? How were they able to manipulate residents? But on the same note, doesn't the attending or whomever that writes their letters or signs off on their rotations and grades them take this into account?
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There are two broad categories of reasons that voluntary attendings teach.

The first is honor. The honor of participating in medical education and including this on your cv and business information. The huge majority of voluntary faculty members value their affiliation and teach even though it costs them money in time that could be spent more efficiently caring for patients themselves. They generally receive no pay for this honor.

The second is pay. This is often an entirely different group who have been saddled with this job as a result of contracts signed by their hospital employer. I have seen relatively few physicians putting their "teaching affiliation" with a Caribbean school on their business card!
 
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This thread has gone out of control... can we talk about the cheesy reality TV show, Vanderpump Rules, please? It's got about the same number of good life/career decisions as going to a Caribbean school (ie. zero), and is far more entertaining and sexy.
 
NYCdude said:
What are some reasons for why a PD would take an offshore grad for his/her program?
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Most of these posts here are too negative. Just the other day a Careabean grad was profiled in the NY Times marriage section. Now a IM resident at Mt Sinai--a top hospital. I know a current Carreban resident who is going to a competitive pulmonary fellowship, and just the other day a carreban grad got into a anesthesiology residency after working as a research assistant for a year after graduating medical school. A lot of US med students get low USMLE scores, and a 'good' rotation will not take up for that.

Anyways, how do foreigners get into US residencies? Do you really think that grads from schools in Lebanon, Egypt, Pakistan and India have 'good rotations'? How do these foreigners get in? Through high exam scores.

Also, these foreign medical schools in India, etc are even more corrupt than these Carreban schools, you can bribe your way in, bribe the professors, and more. And yet these PD's take these people. Why? Because of high exam scores.

If you look at the other forums, most medical school students say: fourth year is mostly interviewing, hardly any work, third year rotations are a mixed bag at best, USMLE scores matter for residency, grades don't even matter---but on the Carreban fourms, they say the exact opposite.
 
boxer0011 said:
Most of these posts here are too negative. Just the other day a Careabean grad was profiled in the NY Times marriage section. Now a IM resident at Mt Sinai--a top hospital. I know a current Carreban resident who is going to a competitive pulmonary fellowship, and just the other day a carreban grad got into a anesthesiology residency after working as a research assistant for a year after graduating medical school. A lot of US med students get low USMLE scores, and a 'good' rotation will not take up for that.

Anyways, how do foreigners get into US residencies? Do you really think that grads from schools in Lebanon, Egypt, Pakistan and India have 'good rotations'? How do these foreigners get in? Through high exam scores.

Also, these foreign medical schools in India, etc are even more corrupt than these Carreban schools, you can bribe your way in, bribe the professors, and more. And yet these PD's take these people. Why? Because of high exam scores.

If you look at the other forums, most medical school students say: fourth year is mostly interviewing, hardly any work, third year rotations are a mixed bag at best, USMLE scores matter for residency, grades don't even matter---but on the Carreban fourms, they say the exact opposite.
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As long as there are federally insured loans for these "schools" and people who use your "logic", there can never be enough negativity on this topic.
 
gyngyn said:
As long as there are federally insured loans for these "schools" and people who use your "logic", there can never be enough negativity on this topic.
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But my logic makes sense. I am almost certainly not going to go to Caribbean schools, but for the sake of argument:

* Thousands of med school graduates from countries like India, Pakistan, Egypt, etc. get into US residency programs. I am sure you will agree here that clinical rotations in these countries is hardly 'great' as the US-MD people insist their own rotations were/are. I would think that Caribbean rotations are better, and if you have been to a university (public) hospital in India (as i have) you will certainly agree with me.

* These schools are very corrupt as anyone familiar with them will attest.

* So how do these graduates get into US residencies? Through USMLE scores.

I think much of the negativity here is overstated. I have seen Caribbean graduates do fellowships at Baylor, Mt Sinai and Cleveland Clinic and I hardly know anyone in medicine.
 
I really have a hard time believing that someone with a high USMLE scores and good grades would not be able to get into even a family medicine residency at a rural hospital.
 
boxer0011 said:
But my logic makes sense. I am almost certainly not going to go to Caribbean schools, but for the sake of argument:

* Thousands of med school graduates from countries like India, Pakistan, Egypt, etc. get into US residency programs. I am sure you will agree here that clinical rotations in these countries is hardly 'great' as the US-MD people insist their own rotations were/are. I would think that Caribbean rotations are better, and if you have been to a university (public) hospital in India (as i have) you will certainly agree with me.

* These schools are very corrupt as anyone familiar with them will attest.

* So how do these graduates get into US residencies? Through USMLE scores.

I think much of the negativity here is overstated. I have seen Caribbean graduates do fellowships at Baylor, Mt Sinai and Cleveland Clinic and I hardly know anyone in medicine.
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Though IMGS of every stripe still match to this day, the overwhelming majority of these candidates do not and the odds of success go down every year. To the degree that we are contributing to brain drain in any of the countries that needed the skills and service of their best and brightest, I am ashamed. One cannot compare schools designed to train doctors for their own countries to cash machines in the Caribbean designed to separate the desperate and gullible from their cash.
The majority of US matriculants to the Caribbean schools will never get a medical license in the US.
Even the most successful (with excellent USMLE scores) are lucky to get a spot in our worst dead end residency slots.
This amounts to institutional fraud. The washouts still owe the government for those loans that cannot be discharged in bankruptcy. This is aside from the opportunity cost!
 
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From a business standpoint though... the folks running those carib schools are making BANK. $$$ CHA-CHINNGGGGG
 
boxer0011 said:
Most of these posts here are too negative. Just the other day a Careabean grad was profiled in the NY Times marriage section. Now a IM resident at Mt Sinai--a top hospital. I know a current Carreban resident who is going to a competitive pulmonary fellowship, and just the other day a carreban grad got into a anesthesiology residency after working as a research assistant for a year after graduating medical school. A lot of US med students get low USMLE scores, and a 'good' rotation will not take up for that.

Anyways, how do foreigners get into US residencies? Do you really think that grads from schools in Lebanon, Egypt, Pakistan and India have 'good rotations'? How do these foreigners get in? Through high exam scores.

Also, these foreign medical schools in India, etc are even more corrupt than these Carreban schools, you can bribe your way in, bribe the professors, and more. And yet these PD's take these people. Why? Because of high exam scores.

If you look at the other forums, most medical school students say: fourth year is mostly interviewing, hardly any work, third year rotations are a mixed bag at best, USMLE scores matter for residency, grades don't even matter---but on the Carreban fourms, they say the exact opposite.
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I'm not sure I understand your post. First, yes a small handful of offshore people get good spots. That's a couple out of literally thousands though, pretty negligible. It kind of like a slot machine that only pays out every couple of days -- just enough for people to keep playing but not enough that anyone would ever say the odds are good. (I would also caution though that matching into "IM" at a good place could actually mean a preliminary year, rather than categorical, which might just mean a dead end one year gig).
Second, as I mentioned above, USMLE is important in comparing within groups, but almost never let you jump people in other groups. Meaning as between US allo grads, residencies will absolutely look at the USMLE step 1 scores. And when comparing Caribbean grads with each other, they will look at USMLE scores. but they wont take a Caribbean grad with a 230 over the US grad with a 215. Why? Because the LCME accreditation trumps the import of the USMLE. The USMLE is just one Metric for comparing similarly educated people -/ it isn't in and of itself proof that someone will thrive in residency and the LCME rotations are regarded as a better yardstick for that. Caribbean grads don't like to hear this because it means that no matter how hard they work, they can never get ahead of their US counterpart, and so you'll always get the "I know a guy" stories. but such is life.
Third, the Indian national who goes to an Indian med school is often better regarded because those schools aren't set up to make money while providing the bare minimum in terms of rotations to try and land a US residency. At those schools they are actually training real, fully functioning, doctors because they actually expect these people to stay and work in India. So there is no focus there on USMLE or lite rotations -- when you are on the wards in India I suspect it's very hands on and lots of diseases and pathology. Sure many foreign countries are corrupt and you can bribe your way past certain hurdles (although honestly most of the Caribbean doesn't exactly have an untarnished reputation in terms of corruption). But in the end there's something less suspect about a Country training it's own nationals as compared to a med school set up exclusively as a cottage industry to give US nationals an alternate route to med school.
 
Law2Doc said:
I'm not sure I understand your post. First, yes a small handful of offshore people get good spots. That's a couple out of literally thousands though, pretty negligible. It kind of like a slot machine that only pays out every couple of days -- just enough for people to keep playing but not enough that anyone would ever say the odds are good. (I would also caution though that matching into "IM" at a good place could actually mean a preliminary year, rather than categorical, which might just mean a dead end one year gig).
Second, as I mentioned above, USMLE is important in comparing within groups, but almost never let you jump people in other groups. Meaning as between US allo grads, residencies will absolutely look at the USMLE step 1 scores. And when comparing Caribbean grads with each other, they will look at USMLE scores. but they wont take a Caribbean grad with a 230 over the US grad with a 215. Why? Because the LCME accreditation trumps the import of the USMLE. The USMLE is just one Metric for comparing similarly educated people -/ it isn't in and of itself proof that someone will thrive in residency and the LCME rotations are regarded as a better yardstick for that. Caribbean grads don't like to hear this because it means that no matter how hard they work, they can never get ahead of their US counterpart, and so you'll always get the "I know a guy" stories. but such is life.
Third, the Indian national who goes to an Indian med school is often better regarded because those schools aren't set up to make money while providing the bare minimum in terms of rotations to try and land a US residency. At those schools they are actually training real, fully functioning, doctors because they actually expect these people to stay and work in India. So there is no focus there on USMLE or lite rotations -- when you are on the wards in India I suspect it's very hands on and lots of diseases and pathology. Sure many foreign countries are corrupt and you can bribe your way past certain hurdles (although honestly most of the Caribbean doesn't exactly have an untarnished reputation in terms of corruption). But in the end there's something less suspect about a Country training it's own nationals as compared to a med school set up exclusively as a cottage industry to give US nationals an alternate route to med school.
Click to expand...

I think I like you.

Yeah, match lists and stats are deceptively ******ed. They count people who SOAPed/Scrambled into 1 year positions as successfully matching. They also often exclude people who take up research jobs for a year as a voluntary withdrawal from the match (often because they couldn't match).

To all that keep saying, "but this, but that" about the Carribeans.... the naysayers are NOT saying that Carribean schools don't ever match to the US. They are just saying that relying on that possibility is a risk that far outweighs the rewards. Take it however you want. This has been reiterated so much that someone's gonna get charged for dead horse abuse.
 
boxer0011 said:
I really have a hard time believing that someone with a high USMLE scores and good grades would not be able to get into even a family medicine residency at a rural hospital.
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Yes, if an IMG has awesome step 1 and step 2 scores, has 10 published papers, has LOR's from top names, then they will likely match somewhere in something.

But you have to be reasonable here. How many people who struggled with college courses and did poorly on the MCAT then go on to turn it around and be a stellar student when the classes are 3x harder in medical school compared to what they were in undergrad. The answer is not many and that is proven by how many people end up graduating from caribbean schools and also what % of them end up matching.

We supplied the data earlier in this thread that barely 50% of people from SGU+Ross match. That isn't even counting the people who failed out earlier, which is an immense number if you believe what people say on here. How in debt are these people who don't match? What do they do if they don't match? How do they pay their loans back? It is a VERY poor financial judgement to attend a caribbean school just look at the numbers! They don't lie.
 
Just feel like I have to chime in here because I go to DMU. The DPMs take almost the exact same classes with us first year, then beyond that it's very different. Once you get outside the basic sciences they are very different degrees with a different scope of practice. It's almost like they are two different professions or something!

(Also don't go Carib)
 
L2Ds thing on rotations is exaggerated, but has a little truth to it. There are places in the bigger cities where you have peeps from SGu, Ross, auc in the same rotation. I'm not sure which school or hospital l2d went to, but it doesn't seem to be the absolute example. That hospital must be **** for students if that was the case.
 
gyngyn said:
And it's your tax dollars they're stealing.
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Not really, Since our tax dollars financing those loans were getting 7.8% or 8.5% returns in previous years. Dunno how some of these folks paid it back though? I guess they defaulted maybe?
 
caffeinemia said:
Not really, Since our tax dollars financing those loans were getting 7.8% or 8.5% returns in previous years. Dunno how some of these folks paid it back though? I guess they defaulted maybe?
Click to expand...
You have to get paid to make the interest!
 
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