Is there really a difference between MD and DO?

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I'm more focused on the DO education structure and find out whether the differences are significant enough to warrant a split from the MD route. The actual personal preferences/scenarios/circumstances for going MD over DO are essentially irrelevant.

I think the more pertinent question is "is it worth the time and resource investment to combine the two?" rather than "do the differences warrant a split?". The second question is irrelevant if no one is willing to expend energy to combine the two.

Remember that they had distinct origins, which is the reason for their current separation.
 
I think the more pertinent question is "is it worth the time and resource investment to combine the two?" rather than "do the differences warrant a split?". The second question is irrelevant if no one is willing to expend energy to combine the two.

Remember that they had distinct origins, which is the reason for their current separation.

From what I am seeing, the concept of DO started when the founder was upset with the way MD schools were being managed and effectively split off from that route. So really, the DO degree branched off from the MD degree and with further advancements of science and medicine coming around, many DO principles got shot down while the MD degree became substantiated. So, in practice, DO physicians do the same thing as MD physicians because they are really following the principles that justified the MD degree, leaving most of the original concepts of osteopathy effectively outdated and pseudoscientific.

... which asks the question: how is the DO degree different from MD such that two application processes and standardized exams are required? The unification aspect is self-explanatory.
 
From what I am seeing, the concept of DO started when the founder was upset with the way MD schools were being managed and effectively split off from that route. So really, the DO degree branched off from the MD degree and with further advancements of science and medicine coming around, many DO principles got shot down while the MD degree became substantiated. So, in practice, DO physicians do the same thing as MD physicians because they are really following the principles that justified the MD degree, leaving most of the original concepts of osteopathy effectively outdated and pseudoscientific.

Hm, okay. I guess that makes it divergent and then (re)convergent evolution then. But the split has existed long enough that they are still considered distinct, and the question still remains "should we invest effort into recombining them formally?"
 
I think the more pertinent question is "is it worth the time and resource investment to combine the two?" rather than "do the differences warrant a split?". The second question is irrelevant if no one is willing to expend energy to combine the two.

Remember that they had distinct origins, which is the reason for their current separation.
IMO, this current trend of higher admission standards for DO schools will play a role in the effort to combine the two degrees. And I wouldn't be surprised if a "civil war" between the old school DOs and the newer generation of DOs breaks out sometime in the next few decades.
 
Hm, okay. I guess that makes it divergent and then (re)convergent evolution then. But the split has existed long enough that they are still considered distinct, and the question still remains "should we invest effort into recombining them formally?"

It looks like the number 4. Everything started off as MD but many people were dissatisfied with the degree and tried to form alternatives (osteopathy, naturopathy, homeopathy etc.). Science and medicine advancements came and dismissed nearly all of the alternatives. If the central concepts of osteopathy were rejected, the DO degree would have been wiped out back in the 1950s or so. It persisted for a reason even despite the fact the DO physicians are doing literally the same thing as MD physicians and following the scientific principles that the DO founders and osteopathy supporters would ardently reject. That doesn't make sense.

DO degree will clearly and definitely be reabsorbed back into the MD degree and the existing, well-respected DO schools will likely take the UCI route and convert into MD. Something is preventing that from happening for at least 60 years.
 
It looks like the number 4 if anything. Everything started off as MD but many people were dissatisfied with the degree and tried to form alternatives (osteopathy, naturopathy, homeopathy etc.). Science and medicine advancements came and dismissed nearly all of the alternatives. If the central concepts of osteopathy were rejected, the DO degree would have been wiped out back in the 1950s or so. It persisted for a reason even despite the fact the DO physicians are doing literally the same thing as MD physicians and following the scientific principles that the DO founders and osteopathy supporters would ardently reject. That doesn't make sense.

You're absolutely right, but this still inevitably leads to the question "are people willing to put energy into making them the same thing again?".
 
You're absolutely right, but this still inevitably leads to the question "are people willing to put energy into making them the same thing again?".

But there is literally little energy involved in conversions. The well-respected DO schools will readily switch over to MD and even bump their ranks to be excellent mid-tier schools. The lower tier DO schools will sadly be wiped out but that is a natural outcome as a consequence of strict ACGME/LCME regulations (yes, I know about Northstate and I think that fraud institution will be wiped out).

There is this major resistance that is preventing the natural, smooth flow from happening, and this resistance is giving the vibe of having to irrationally invest large amounts of resources and money for the conversion to happen. Many members here point the blame on AOA/COCA, and in that case, the organization should be the main focus and possibly be eliminated.
 
But there is literally little energy involved in conversions. The well-respected DO schools will readily switch over to MD and even bump their ranks to be excellent mid-tier schools. The lower tier DO schools will sadly be wiped out but that is a natural outcome as a consequence of strict ACGME/LCME regulations (yes, I know about Northstate and I think that fraud institution will be wiped out).

There is this major resistance that is preventing the natural, smooth flow from happening, and this resistance is giving the vibe of having to irrationally invest large amounts of resources and money for the conversion to happen. Many members here point the blame on AOA/COCA, and in that case, the organization should be the main focus and possibly be eliminated.

So then certain parties have interests in merging and related parties have interests in fighting a merger. This moves into the arena of business politics of which is very much outside my area of expertise, so I can't speculate as to whether this conversation will occur or what will happen if it does. But from what you've told me, it seems like the (forgive me) activation energy of the conversation happening is currently too high to surmount, meaning the current system will remain for at least the immediate future. Remember that these AOA/COCA bodies aren't altruistic - they have interests at stake and thus the conversation must require investiture in order to occur, so it's not quite so easy.

So you can say "yes they should be merged/the split isn't warranted" or "no they shouldn't be/the split is warranted" and no matter what you'll have someone fighting you on the other side.
 
So then certain parties have interests in merging and related parties have interests in fighting a merger. This moves into the arena of business politics of which is very much outside my area of expertise, so I can't speculate as to whether this conversation will occur or what will happen if it does. But from what you've told me, it seems like the (forgive me) activation energy of the conversation happening is currently too high to surmount, meaning the current system will remain for at least the immediate future. Remember that these AOA/COCA bodies aren't altruistic - they have interests at stake and thus the conversation must require investiture in order to occur, so it's not quite so easy.

So you can say "yes they should be merged/the split isn't warranted" or "no they shouldn't be/the split is warranted" and no matter what you'll have someone fighting you on the other side.

And on what grounds are they opposing the merger? AOA/COCA can't claim that DO physicians/students are equal to MD physicians/students while still remaining separate. They can't claim that osteopathic principles are a perfect answer when such principles got rejected by science/medical evidence. And now we are hearing negative reports that DO clinical rotations are often of poor quality, with other reports saying that USMLEs are a much more reliable metric for medical student academic potential than COMLEXs.

So what's going on here exactly? All i can think of is they are radicalizing Still's philosophy and blaming the MDs for a perceived discrimination against DOs. But that is a very poor reason for opposing the merger. Then we have the safety reason saying that the existing DO institutions are "too big to fail/convert/merge" as if there existed some major economic costs involved in the switch.
 
And on what grounds are they opposing the merger? AOA/COCA can't claim that DO physicians/students are equal to MD physicians/students while still remaining separate. They can't claim that osteopathic principles are a perfect answer when such principles got rejected by science/medical evidence. And now we are hearing negative reports that DO clinical rotations are often of poor quality, with other reports saying that USMLEs are a much more reliable metric for medical student academic potential than COMLEXs.

So what's going on here exactly? All i can think of is they are radicalizing Still's philosophy and blaming the MDs for a perceived discrimination against DOs. But that is a very poor reason for opposing the merger. Then we have the safety reason saying that the existing DO institutions are "too big to fail/convert/merge" as if there existed some major economic costs involved in the switch.

This is a question that I cannot answer, but I think we have arrived at the crux of the issue
 
And on what grounds are they opposing the merger? AOA/COCA can't claim that DO physicians/students are equal to MD physicians/students while still remaining separate. They can't claim that osteopathic principles are a perfect answer when such principles got rejected by science/medical evidence. And now we are hearing negative reports that DO clinical rotations are often of poor quality, with other reports saying that USMLEs are a much more reliable metric for medical student academic potential than COMLEXs.

So what's going on here exactly? All i can think of is they are radicalizing Still's philosophy and blaming the MDs for a perceived discrimination against DOs. But that is a very poor reason for opposing the merger. Then we have the safety reason saying that the existing DO institutions are "too big to fail/convert/merge" as if there existed some major economic costs involved in the switch.

But they can and they do... As long as they have the exact same practice rights and do the exact same things then they can say this. I do agree a future merger is going to happen but probably not for another 20 years. There is too much money and red tape involved to make a current merger worth it. The perceived benefit of having them combined is not strong enough to jump through all the hooplah that would result of an attempted merger. And don't be so sure the top DO schools would jump at the opportunity to be MD. From my understanding there are at least 2 schools that have been told they could be LCME accredited and give the MD but they have chosen not to.

And OMM actually has yet to be proven ineffective (some of it any way, other stuff is pretty out there) so you can't say that osteopathic principles have been scientifically disregarded, because that isn't really true
 
But they can and they do... As long as they have the exact same practice rights and do the exact same things then they can say this. I do agree a future merger is going to happen but probably not for another 20 years. There is too much money and red tape involved to make a current merger worth it. The perceived benefit of having them combined is not strong enough to jump through all the hooplah that would result of an attempted merger. And don't be so sure the top DO schools would jump at the opportunity to be MD. From my understanding there are at least 2 schools that have been told they could be LCME accredited and give the MD but they have chosen not to.

And OMM actually has yet to be proven ineffective (some of it any way, other stuff is pretty out there) so you can't say that osteopathic principles have been scientifically disregarded, because that isn't really true

So basically AOA/COCA are acting on bad blood for some reason, while many DO schools don't want to switch to MD since they want to be unique? Are there any practical reasons for them to be separate? Basically, any reasons that have nothing to do with money, red tape, bad blood etc.? Preferably beneficial?

Some OMM is helpful like I mentioned earlier, but many osteopathic principles are really based on little evidence. Many members here have reported that cranial OMM is a farce. Other reports complain that DO schools are not following on a strong research establishment. And few have suggested that there is actually no evidence of OMM being useful besides soothing lower back pain.

When I suggested that it may be a good idea for MD schools to adopt OMM as a course, the proposal was faced with concern because of the above reasons, and we seem to agree that OMM can be a useful 4th year elective. But that is a marked difference from the required OMM seen in DO schools.
 
More accurate to say that he was upset at the way Medicine was practiced at that time (late 1800s).

From what I am seeing, the concept of DO started when the founder was upset with the way MD schools were being managed and effectively split off from that route.

In some ways, one is seeing this already. The older DOs still drink from the "cult of Still" and have a near religious belief in the doctrines of Osteopathy. I call them "the True Believers".

IMO, this current trend of higher admission standards for DO schools will play a role in the effort to combine the two degrees. And I wouldn't be surprised if a "civil war" between the old school DOs and the newer generation of DOs breaks out sometime in the next few decades.


Are you familiar with the "California Story"? If not, go look it up. In the 1960s, the CA MDs damn near wiped out Osteopathy in the state of CA. If they hadn't built in a "restraint of trade" motif into their plans, today every DO in the country (except the True Believers) would simply be able to buy an MD license. One actually has to admire the MD's ruthlessness!

I agree that over time the two fields will indeed merge. Evolution and all that.

It looks like the number 4. Everything started off as MD but many people were dissatisfied with the degree and tried to form alternatives (osteopathy, naturopathy, homeopathy etc.). Science and medicine advancements came and dismissed nearly all of the alternatives. If the central concepts of osteopathy were rejected, the DO degree would have been wiped out back in the 1950s or so. It persisted for a reason even despite the fact the DO physicians are doing literally the same thing as MD physicians and following the scientific principles that the DO founders and osteopathy supporters would ardently reject. That doesn't make sense.

DO degree will clearly and definitely be reabsorbed back into the MD degree and the existing, well-respected DO schools will likely take the UCI route and convert into MD. Something is preventing that from happening for at least 60 years.
 
So basically AOA/COCA are acting on bad blood for some reason, while many DO schools don't want to switch to MD since they want to be unique? Are there any practical reasons for them to be separate? Basically, any reasons that have nothing to do with money, red tape, bad blood etc.? Preferably beneficial?

Some OMM is helpful like I mentioned earlier, but many osteopathic principles are really based on little evidence. Many members here have reported that cranial OMM is a farce. Other reports complain that DO schools are not following on a strong research establishment. And few have suggested that there is actually no evidence of OMM being useful besides soothing lower back pain.

When I suggested that it may be a good idea for MD schools to adopt OMM as a course, the proposal was faced with concern because of the above reasons, and we seem to agree that OMM can be a useful 4th year elective. But that is a marked difference from the required OMM seen in DO schools.

A couple things, you seem to be thinking about this too hard.

Bold #1- no they are acting the way they are because of $$$. Only the Old school DOs, like Goro said, are the ones with any "bad blood."

Bold #2- you are asking the wrong question because the reason the fact they are separate is a long history spanning over 100 years (back to the times when "medicine" killed almost as many people as it helped. This is why Still tried another way) The real question is "what is the benefit to them merging?" And the answer right now is "not much". The only perceived benefit would be "unified healthcare" but that only matters as a front to the public in general, because the reality is that patients receive the same kind care no matter who they go to. So until a benefit can be good enough to make going through all the red tape and hassle to merge them, it won't happen for a while. This is what we are trying to tell you.

Bold #3- just wanted to point out that this matters very little to the purpose of DO schools. The general purpose is to produce practicing primary care physicians. With that goal in mind, research takes a back seat. The only people it really does a disservice to are the ones who want to do academic medicine or super competative specialties. Even if (when) the DO schools eventually convert MD I doubt research will all of a sudden be abundant. They will still be focused on producing PP primary care docs.
 
More accurate to say that he was upset at the way Medicine was practiced at that time (late 1800s).

Yeah that is true.

Are you familiar with the "California Story"? If not, go look it up. In the 1960s, the CA MDs damn near wiped out Osteopathy in the state of CA. If they hadn't built in a "restraint of trade" motif into their plans, today every DO in the country (except the True Believers) would simply be able to buy an MD license. One actually has to admire the MD's ruthlessness!

I agree that over time the two fields will indeed merge. Evolution and all that.

I read some of that and saw how UCI formed as a consequence. I just didn't understand the stance of DO lobbyists who angrily forced the CA Supreme Court to smash down the takeover.

A couple things, you seem to be thinking about this too hard.

Bold #1- no they are acting the way they are because of $$$. Only the Old school DOs, like Goro said, are the ones with any "bad blood."

Bold #2- you are asking the wrong question because the reason the fact they are separate is a long history spanning over 100 years (back to the times when "medicine" killed almost as many people as it helped. This is why Still tried another way) The real question is "what is the benefit to them merging?" And the answer right now is "not much". The only perceived benefit would be "unified healthcare" but that only matters as a front to the public in general, because the reality is that patients receive the same kind care no matter who they go to. So until a benefit can be good enough to make going through all the red tape and hassle to merge them, it won't happen for a while. This is what we are trying to tell you.

Bold #3- just wanted to point out that this matters very little to the purpose of DO schools. The general purpose is to produce practicing primary care physicians. With that goal in mind, research takes a back seat. The only people it really does a disservice to are the ones who want to do academic medicine or super competative specialties. Even if (when) the DO schools eventually convert MD I doubt research will all of a sudden be abundant. They will still be focused on producing PP primary care docs.

1. But isn't AOA/COCA dominated by old school DOs? Or is it purely just business-minded physicians?

2. I keep presenting that question because the benefits of merger are unlimited and completely trounce the costs preventing the merger from happening. It's redundancy to the point of absurdity and it seems that DOs have a severe identity crisis going on right now. For patients, even NPs/PAs are surprisingly equivalent to MD/DO so that's a bad indicator. The merger severely cuts down the costs of redundancy and streamlines the education pathway. I am looking mainly for the benefits of medical education.

3. State schools and lower-tier MD schools also focus on primary care. Yet their methodology used is substantiated by research (doesn't have to be done at the said schools).

Also a small question for you, @Goro and others interested. It's been on my mind for a while. Why is the term "osteopathy" viewed as a pejorative in the DO forums?
 
Yeah that is true.



I read some of that and saw how UCI formed as a consequence. I just didn't understand the stance of DO lobbyists who angrily forced the CA Supreme Court to smash down the takeover.



1. But isn't AOA/COCA dominated by old school DOs? Or is it purely just business-minded physicians?

2. I keep presenting that question because the benefits of merger are unlimited and completely trounce the costs preventing the merger from happening. It's redundancy to the point of absurdity and it seems that DOs have a severe identity crisis going on right now. For patients, even NPs/PAs are surprisingly equivalent to MD/DO so that's a bad indicator. The merger severely cuts down the costs of redundancy and streamlines the education pathway. I am looking mainly for the benefits of medical education.

3. State schools and lower-tier MD schools also focus on primary care. Yet their methodology used is substantiated by research (doesn't have to be done at the said schools).

Also a small question for you, @Goro and others interested. It's been on my mind for a while. Why is the term "osteopathy" viewed as a pejorative in the DO forums?

Um this isn't true... Name ACTUAL benefits of a merger. Don't just make generalizations based in your opinions. The benefits AS OF NOW are very small and are not worth the hassle to try and merge them. Multiple people have said this and you seem to not be listening.

It depends on who you talk to. "Osteopathy" sometimes is thought of in the same mindset as "homeopathy" when, in reality, they aren't similar. Some people just don't want to be associated that way. Some people couldn't care less. It just depends.
 
Um this isn't true... Name ACTUAL benefits of a merger. Don't just make generalizations based in your opinions. The benefits AS OF NOW are very small and are not worth the hassle to try and merge them. Multiple people have said this and you seem to not be listening.

It depends on who you talk to. "Osteopathy" sometimes is thought of in the same mindset as "homeopathy" when, in reality, they aren't similar. Some people just don't want to be associated that way. Some people couldn't care less. It just depends.

How are the benefits now small? Examples include standardized education pathway, one standardized exam format, single, strong accreditation oversight, consistency in clinical rotations, preserving the OMM elective for interested MD students, a maintained osteopathic historical significance etc. These aren't opinions. The only reason why it's not being merged is because of stubbornness in the DO end.
 
Also a small question for you, @Goro and others interested. It's been on my mind for a while. Why is the term "osteopathy" viewed as a pejorative in the DO forums?

I know some DOs don't like the term osteopath since that's a different profession. In Europe you can be an osteopath and not be a physician. They study and practice the OMM but don't have a medical license.

In US the term Osteopathic physician is preferred.
 
I know some DOs don't like the term osteopath since that's a different profession. In Europe you can be an osteopath and not be a physician. They study and practice the OMM but don't have a medical license.

In US the term Osteopathic physician is preferred.

Some DOs consider osteopath to be a different profession? Then what is osteopathic medicine? Just OMM done by a licensed physician?
 
Some DOs consider osteopath to be a different profession? Then what is osteopathic medicine? Just OMM done by a licensed physician?

Osteopathic medicine in the United States differs greatly in scope and approach from osteopathy as practised in Europe and elsewhere. The USA recognises a branch of the medical profession called osteopathic physicians, trained and certified to practice all modern medicine, while in other countries around the world osteopaths are trained only in manual osteopathic treatment, generally to relieve muscular and skeletal conditions.[3][4][5] To avoid confusion the American Osteopathic Association and the American Association of Colleges of Osteopathic Medicine recommend using the terms osteopathic physician (U.S.-trained only) and osteopathic medicine in reference to osteopathic medicine as practised in the United States.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osteopathy
 
How are the benefits now small? Examples include standardized education pathway, one standardized exam format, single, strong accreditation oversight, consistency in clinical rotations, preserving the OMM elective for interested MD students, a maintained osteopathic historical significance etc. These aren't opinions. The only reason why it's not being merged is because of stubbornness in the DO end.

Ok dude you aren't getting it. What are the actual BENEFITS of all the things you mentioned? Like why are they important. I am not saying they aren't important but you don't seem to be understanding that the benefits that that these things bring to the table ARE NOT BIG ENOUGH to go through the hassle of merging the two pathways. Is DO leadership stubborn? Absolutely. Do they see a lot of $$$ in the current situation? Yes. But you really don't see people on the MD end actively pursuing a degree merger with any committed effort either. AS LONG AS LEGALLY THE DO PATHWAY IS VIABLE AND THEY HAVE FULL PRACTICE RIGHTS AND NO INCENTIVE TO MERGE THEN IT WON'T HAPPEN UNLESS BOTH SIDES PURSUE A MERGER. This won't happen until the current DO students (who see themselves exactly as their MD counterparts) are in leadership positions.

variable clinical education across the nation is not limited to DO schools. Low end MD schools have their issues too.
 
Some DOs consider osteopath to be a different profession? Then what is osteopathic medicine? Just OMM done by a licensed physician?

Just so you know I'm not arguing with you in just pointing out the cost benefit analysis in the current climate. I do agree there are benefits, just not big enough for anyone to do anything about it yet.

And no read his post better. In EUROPE osteopath does not mean "physician". If is essentially a chiropractor of sorts. They don't get any sort of physician training so it is not equal to an osteopath in the US. Most DOs just don't want to be seen as something like that and want to be seen for what they are, physicians.
 
Ok dude you aren't getting it. What are the actual BENEFITS of all the things you mentioned? Like why are they important. I am not saying they aren't important but you don't seem to be understanding that the benefits that that these things bring to the table ARE NOT BIG ENOUGH to go through the hassle of merging the two pathways. Is DO leadership stubborn? Absolutely. Do they see a lot of $$$ in the current situation? Yes. But you really don't see people on the MD end actively pursuing a degree merger with any committed effort either. AS LONG AS LEGALLY THE DO PATHWAY IS VIABLE AND THEY HAVE FULL PRACTICE RIGHTS AND NO INCENTIVE TO MERGE THEN IT WON'T HAPPEN UNLESS BOTH SIDES PURSUE A MERGER. This won't happen until the current DO students (who see themselves exactly as their MD counterparts) are in leadership positions.

variable clinical education across the nation is not limited to DO schools. Low end MD schools have their issues too.
Just so you know I'm not arguing with you in just pointing out the cost benefit analysis in the current climate. I do agree there are benefits, just not big enough for anyone to do anything about it yet.

And no read his post better. In EUROPE osteopath does not mean "physician". If is essentially a chiropractor of sorts. They don't get any sort of physician training so it is not equal to an osteopath in the US. Most DOs just don't want to be seen as something like that and want to be seen for what they are, physicians.

Then i give up. I don't know of any benefits that can overcome this massive resistance. All i can do is concede with your point that we have to wait until the newer DOs take charge

In the meantime, i will look into and study the 1960s CA situation @Goro mentioned that nearly wiped out the DOs. Something isn't right here.
 
Then i give up. I don't know of any benefits that can overcome this massive resistance. All i can do is concede with your point that we have to wait until the newer DOs take charge

In the meantime, i will look into and study the 1960s CA situation @Goro mentioned that nearly wiped out the DOs. Something isn't right here.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ost..._California_v._California_Medical_Association

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/california-osteopathic-ban.24688/
 
It's fascinating really, and while what MeatTornado and all the other residents are saying here are valid about the limitations of a DO, you have to remember who these people are. These are some very high end MD graduates. Their peers and where they applied to aren't going to be DO's in most cases and the types of programs they looked into are exactly the type to discriminate against DO's. Many many quality programs, even if they aren't that kind of tier or close to it that these residents are at, are viable options for DO's. Many fields be it anasthesiology, pathology, EM, neurology etc are viable fields for DO's. The idea the generic pre-med will tort that DO's can usually only do primary care or have to work in community hospitals that are rather limited in what they can do is shall we say not very informed.

I'm flattered by your description but I'm by no means a "very high end" MD graduate and that's very much my point. I went to a state school was a slightly above average student who barely snuck into the second quartile. Granted I studied my butt off and got a step 1 score of ~250, had a couple publications before med school but unfortunately didn't do any research during med school. I'm at a mid-tier university IM program in a desirable location that does not consider DO applicants. Which brings me back to the point I always try to make about the difference between MD and DO: pound for pound (or stat for stat if you will) a US MD will always have better options and opportunities than their DO counterpart. If I had graduated from a DO program I'd probably be at a low-tier university program in a less desirable location and the absolute superstars in the class wouldn't be able to make it past the mid-tier university program level in an undesirable location. So you get more bang for your buck at a US MD school. You get rewarded more for putting in the same effort.

What does that mean in the long run: if you want to do a competitive specialty it likely won't work out. if you want to do EM or a medicine subspecialty of moderate competitiveness or greater it will be an uphill battle to match. if you want to do academic medicine it will be particularly difficult. if you want to be a hospitalist, do primary care, go into a relatively non-competitive specialty like peds, anesthesia, pm&r, psych it should be no problem.
 

Thanks for the links. I looked into it and Lee's post caught my eye (especially since he's the founder of these forums)

Edgar, you're close on the CA history, but the reasoning behind it is pure osteopathic revisionist history. But that's not your fault, this is the story that is given to all of us in medical school.

And now, the rest of the story...

In the 60s, MDs noticed that they were becoming a profession of specialists -- they needed primary care docs to give them referrals. Well, DOs back then were usually primary care docs, but being DOs, they kept patients in their professional community, and wern't sending a lot of referrals the way of MDs. Of course, this was the case because DOs were being shut out of allopathic institutions.

The California Medical Assoc. felt that the solution to this was to unify the medical profession. The CMA recognized that DOs and MDs were essentially the same -- the only difference being manipulation and philosophy. The DOs and MDs in the state joined together and put forward the idea of unification of the medical profession -- it wasn't a hostile takeover by the AMA.

Understandably, the merger did not settle well with the AOA -- it was a threat to those who work for the AOA (they'd be out of a job) and those who feel that osteopathic medicine is unique enough to merit a separate profession and degree. The AOA made a forceful effort to block further state mergers and to harm those DOs that had converted to MDs. Their efforts were clearly successful, as there has never been another merger and California now has 2 osteopathic medical schools.

I'd also like to point out that no osteopathic hospitals or colleges were shut down -- these facilities were converted to allopathic institutions.

I hope that clears up a few points for those interested in our California history.

Best regards,
Lee



------------------
Lee Burnett, DO
www.osteopathic.com

The problems unsurprisingly arose from the AOA again, making it a convincing evidence that AOA/COCA is forcefully preventing any and all mergers from happening. I will look separately and in detail into these organizations
 
So long story short some premeds don't like DO, and certain schools that have entirely preceptor based rotations may be weak due to variability from preceptor to preceptor, but if you have good preceptors then it's fine.

It definitely seems like the differences are fast eroding, if these are the remaining "differences."
 
So long story short some premeds don't like DO, and certain schools that have entirely preceptor based rotations may be weak due to variability from preceptor to preceptor, but if you have good preceptors then it's fine.

It definitely seems like the differences are fast eroding, if these are the remaining "differences."

And this is why this thread pops up all the time.... And almost every premed thinks they will be the next pedsneurocardiothoracicgifttomankind surgeon that will be the first to do a head transplant successfully. so they naturally want to know "if I go DO can I specialize??????????!!!!!!!!!!" When they realize that getting into an MD school is really hard and DO might have I be an option. When in the end the large majority of them end up doing PP in some primary care specialty because they realize that is what they actually like doing. Any student who goes DO and is self aware and knows their limits will be fine. And every now and then a DO student will break through and match Derm at Mayo. (True story, my neighbors son did that)

Matching a competative specialty just usually means more prior legwork as a DO than an MD.
 
And this is why this thread pops up all the time.... And almost every premed thinks they will be the next pedsneurocardiothoracicgifttomankind surgeon that will be the first to do a head transplant successfully. so they naturally want to know "if I go DO can I specialize??????????!!!!!!!!!!" When they realize that getting into an MD school is really hard and DO might have I be an option. When in the end the large majority of them end up doing PP in some primary care specialty because they realize that is what they actually like doing. Any student who goes DO and is self aware and knows their limits will be fine. And every now and then a DO student will break through and match Derm at Mayo. (True story, my neighbors son did that)

Matching a competative specialty just usually means more prior legwork as a DO than an MD.

Did your neighbors son attend KCU by any chance...

We had someone match Derm at Mayo.

Things are changing faster than you think. Our average MCAT went up 4 pts in the past 3 years.
 
Did your neighbors son attend KCU by any chance...

We had someone match Derm at Mayo.

Things are changing faster than you think. Our average MCAT went up 4 pts in the past 3 years.

Edited. I just checked and he went to AZCOM. And just so everyone else knows yes it was Mayo Rochester
 
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So long story short some premeds don't like DO, and certain schools that have entirely preceptor based rotations may be weak due to variability from preceptor to preceptor, but if you have good preceptors then it's fine.

It definitely seems like the differences are fast eroding, if these are the remaining "differences."

Nothing has indicated to me that the difference between the clinical education at DO vs. MD schools is eroding. If you have evidence that it is (i.e. more standardization so shadowing a doctor in clinic for the entirety of a rotation is no longer acceptable), please point me towards that evidence.

Namely, patient centered approach, holistic assessment (considering SES, occupation, culture when treating and diagnosing), and most importantly prevention!

Sigh. Look, you are welcome to be excited about becoming a physician. But don't go anywhere with this crap about DOs automatically being more holistic because of the letters after their names. It's insulting to your hard-working future colleagues of all stripes. And while I really shouldn't care what some pre-med thinks, it stings to dedicate my career to caring for the marginalized and encouraging future generations of providers to do the same, only to know there are people like you out there who can't just be satisfied with what they are unless they're pointing out what they think I'm not.

The ACGME merger means many things, but one thing it means is that it is being recognzied that the clincial rotations/preclinical education that DOs recieve is equivalent of MDs

You're wrong here. The ACGME hit the AOA with a threat of closing off ACGME residencies to DOs, since AOA residencies are closed to MDs. There was very much a power differential at work; it was not due to any recognition of the quality of DO clinical training- if anything we will see deficiencies being highlighted as programs that cannot meet standards close.
 
You're wrong here. The ACGME hit the AOA with a threat of closing off ACGME residencies to DOs, since AOA residencies are closed to MDs. There was very much a power differential at work; it was not due to any recognition of the quality of DO clinical training- if anything we will see deficiencies being highlighted as programs that cannot meet standards close.

Couple things.

First, ACGME threatened to close access to ACGME fellowships, not residencies. Subtle, but makes a huge difference.

Second, if it weren't for the Fed (you know, the one who's actually PAYING for all this) to strong arm both the ACGME and AOA to come together and act like adults they are, the merger would've never happened.

Third, which ever the case was the reason behind the merger, this is heading one step closer in standardizing all medical education in the US and arguably, standardizing residencies seem more effective than standardizing undergraduate medical education if one had to choose one. There is still too much money to be made in standardizing the latter and it's hard to foresee the future for this one yet.
 
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Couple things.

First, ACGME threatened to close access to ACGME fellowships, not residencies. Subtle, but makes a huge difference.

Second, if it weren't for the Fed (you know, the one who's actually PAYING for all this) to strong arm both the ACGME and AOA to come together and act like adults they are, the merger would've never happened.

Third, which ever the case was the reason behind the merger, this is heading one step closer in standardizing all medical education in the US and arguably, standardizing residencies seem more effective than standardizing undergraduate medical education if one had to choose one. There is still too much money to be made in standardizing the latter and it's hard to foresee the future for this one yet.

You are right on fellowships vs. residencies, that was my mistake. I also agree that standardizing residency training is more effective and better in the long run -- I already said that physicians are made in residency, not med school.
 
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You beat me to the punch on this one, colleague.

If there are differences in the way DOs and MDs practice medicine, I suggest pre-meds shadow each to discern both similarities and differences.

I can't remember who it was that said these wise words (it might have been Alum, Law2doc or Southernsurgeon), but I'll never forget them: "medical school doesn't make you a doctor, residency does".

EDIT: It was indeed Alum!!


I remember reading in one of the Interview feedback posts that an interviewer at a DO school told an interviewee "I do NOT want the hear the word holistic come out of your mouth"



Sigh. Look, you are welcome to be excited about becoming a physician. But don't go anywhere with this crap about DOs automatically being more holistic because of the letters after their names. It's insulting to your hard-working future colleagues of all stripes. And while I really shouldn't care what some pre-med thinks, it stings to dedicate my career to caring for the marginalized and encouraging future generations of providers to do the same, only to know there are people like you out there who can't just be satisfied with what they are unless they're pointing out what they think I'm not.
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Some additional thoughts:
I don't understand why research and super specialists are automatically equated to excellency and prestige. Simply conducting research isn't that beneficial if you aren't producing any worthwhile findings, the research publication industry today has become just that, an industry. Alot of research is being found to be unable to be reproduced due to poor measures reporting, lack of stringent analysis and poor study designs (can cite this later). Further, alot of physicians simply don't understand biostatistics and aren't able to accurately interpret results, publications are slowly turning into a numbers game and flexing match.

Continuing,
Alot of physicians don't want to be researchers. they want to be physicians. Physicians first, second and third. While some want to be 1A researcher 1B physician this shouldn't be equated to "better", it is just different

Physicians these days are also getting a MPH and want to work as a physician and in a public health setting (what I will be doing).

Now on to primary care

The ACA is more favorable towards Primary Care, primary care physicians generally have better lifestyles and work balance (important metric of success), primary care physicians are able to practice the greatest deal of preventive medicine and are able to build stronger bonds with their patients due to the longevity and consistenty in which they often see/have patients.

This old school mentality of - the harder % it is to get into specialty or residency X or the more research funding at location Y = better, prestige culture, etc. is dying with the advent of millennials entering medicine.

Imo, it's about being a physician first, then your secondary passions (research, academics, public health, administration etc) and what matters most is
1. How well you do as a physician aka patient outcomes
2. How efficiently you work
3. How the patient experience is

AKA the Triple Aim.

Lastly, now that US healthcare is shifting towards certain ideals and directions the Osteopathic principles are becoming even more appealing to students more than ever (based on my subjective experience of 1-2hundred premeds)

Namely, patient centered approach, holistic assessment (considering SES, occupation, culture when treating and diagnosing), and most importantly prevention!

These have been founding philosophical principles that DOs have been taught over a century.

It will be much easier for DOs to adapt to the coordination, communication, cost efficiency, prevention, cultural competency that the ACA will require of physicians. There will be no learning curve.

With the narrowing gaps between overall stats of MD and DO matriculants (30-31 vs 27-28 MCAT and 3.6 vs 3.4 GPA) the differences in quality of students is being eliminated.

The ACGME merger means many things, but one thing it means is that it is being recognzied that the clincial rotations/preclinical education that DOs recieve is equivalent of MDs, so much so that a merger is can not only be accomplised but it is going to happen. Also consider that existing AOA certifications/systems (lack of better word) are being grandfathered in indicating that DOs have been receiving well enough training that those already existing or certified can be grandfathered in. Weak AOA programs (minority) that may exist will be gone or forced to improved, further eliminating difference

Another point, stop grouping all MD and DO schools together. There are strong MD schools and weak ones, same with DO. Be nuanced

Also stop freaking out about new schools, we have a maldistrubution crisis and a shortage. We need more doctors. A new school is not inherently bad. UCR MD is a great program, Cal Northstate is atrocious (faculty and GME), LUCOM is horrid but CUSOM/BCOM are fantastic (creating over 300 ACGME residency positions between the two schools including specialties like ortho)


We need to stop wasting time on these matters and unite, to create a stronger lobby so we stop getting destroyed by pharmas.
This post is so ridiculous is actually funny. Buddy, you're pre-med who got accepted to a DO school and is trying so hard to justify your situation. Be happy that you have a chance to be a physician and get rid of the chip on your shoulder.
 
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