Is this considered a malignant attending?

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First week for me ever in the OR and on gyn onc, this attending always has med students retract and suction...which is pretty standard I'm sure. No one has explained to me how to "suction correctly." When I see blood, I try to suction. Half of the time I do, he hits my hand away. So then when I'm more cautious not to get in his field, he yells at me for not suctioning. Then he starts telling the resident how it's hard for him to operate when he has to suction for himself. I very nicely tell him I can do it for him, he gives it back but then takes it from me everytime I'm about to suction.

Then all day inside and outside the OR he verbally abuses me as much as possible. Yells at me, basically tells me how worthless I am, etc. There's been a number of times when the anesthesiologist or nurse asks for my help, then while I'm helping them he yells at me and tells me "how about you help with this instead of standing around." The anesthesiologist actually spoke up for me and said I was helping him. Of course, my attending didn't apologize to me or anything. Instead he loves making comments like "I've been working for 25 years, I shouldn't feel stressed in the OR so don't stress me out on this next case" implying how worthless I am.

He also yells at the nursing staff constantly. The residents get their fair share too but he isn't as bad toward them since they have some competencies at least. All the nurses and residents tell me how he has no patience and yells all the time so don't take it personally. Why is he accepting med students to work with him at a teaching hospital then? Isn't patience the #1 thing teachers should have?

Is this pretty standard behavior for surgery attendings? Is he considered a "malignant attending" or am I seriously just a failure? haha

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First week for me ever in the OR and on gyn onc, this attending always has med students retract and suction...which is pretty standard I'm sure. No one has explained to me how to "suction correctly." When I see blood, I try to suction. Half of the time I do, he hits my hand away. So then when I'm more cautious not to get in his field, he yells at me for not suctioning. Then he starts telling the resident how it's hard for him to operate when he has to suction for himself. I very nicely tell him I can do it for him, he gives it back but then takes it from me everytime I'm about to suction.

Then all day inside and outside the OR he verbally abuses me as much as possible. Yells at me, basically tells me how worthless I am, etc. There's been a number of times when the anesthesiologist or nurse asks for my help, then while I'm helping them he yells at me and tells me "how about you help with this instead of standing around." The anesthesiologist actually spoke up for me and said I was helping him. Of course, my attending didn't apologize to me or anything. Instead he loves making comments like "I've been working for 25 years, I shouldn't feel stressed in the OR so don't stress me out on this next case" implying how worthless I am.

He also yells at the nursing staff constantly. The residents get their fair share too but he isn't as bad toward them since they have some competencies at least. All the nurses and residents tell me how he has no patience and yells all the time so don't take it personally. Why is he accepting med students to work with him at a teaching hospital then? Isn't patience the #1 thing teachers should have?

Is this pretty standard behavior for surgery attendings? Is he considered a "malignant attending" or am I seriously just a failure? haha

That attending sounds like he sucks. The key is to not take it personally -- it's not about you, he's that way toward everyone.

You will get more comfortable in the OR as time goes on, but there will still be attendings who will never be happy with how you do. Hence the old joke -- "There are only two lengths a medical student can cut sutures in the OR: too short or too long."

Keep your head down, work hard, and don't take it personally -- and it'll be over eventually. Hopefully you'll have other attendings who are better.
 
This happens to us all at some point. There are, unfortunately, people who choose to behave this way. Maybe his home life sucks, maybe he's dissatisfied with his job, who knows. Good news is each rotation is finite and you will soon be free. I had a general surgery resident that would make me stand, not sit, for hours while she typed notes. Just watching her. This too shall pass.
 
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This happens to us all at some point. There are, unfortunately, people who choose to behave this way. Maybe his home life sucks, maybe he's dissatisfied with his job, who knows. Good news is each rotation is finite and you will soon be free. I had a general surgery resident that would make me stand, not sit, for hours while she typed notes. Just watching her. This too shall pass.

Every resident and nurse tell me how inpatient he is. He's defintely a good surgeon so that probably allows him to do whatever he wants. How can ppl put up with this in surgical residencies?
 
Its not you with the problem, its him. Just grow a thick skin and get on with your life. No need worrying your life about such minutia.
 
First week for me ever in the OR and on gyn onc, this attending always has med students retract and suction...which is pretty standard I'm sure. No one has explained to me how to "suction correctly." When I see blood, I try to suction. Half of the time I do, he hits my hand away. So then when I'm more cautious not to get in his field, he yells at me for not suctioning. Then he starts telling the resident how it's hard for him to operate when he has to suction for himself. I very nicely tell him I can do it for him, he gives it back but then takes it from me everytime I'm about to suction.

Nobody is going to hand hold you in the real world and nobody can really teach you "how to suction". General pointers, yes, how to do it well is about #1 watching others who are good at it and #2 practice. If someone is batting you out of their field, you are doing something wrong. If this is a difficult task for you, I'd recommend watching a resident with the suction or the attending when they are using the suction themselves. This has nothing to do with being malignant or not. This is standard for surgery. Nobody is going to hand hold you through the basics (like using a suction or scissors) and nobody likes people who get in their way when they are focused. This isn't a teachable moment that is being missed. This is a medical student trying to do something they aren't comfortable with.

Then all day inside and outside the OR he verbally abuses me as much as possible. Yells at me, basically tells me how worthless I am, etc. There's been a number of times when the anesthesiologist or nurse asks for my help, then while I'm helping them he yells at me and tells me "how about you help with this instead of standing around." The anesthesiologist actually spoke up for me and said I was helping him. Of course, my attending didn't apologize to me or anything. Instead he loves making comments like "I've been working for 25 years, I shouldn't feel stressed in the OR so don't stress me out on this next case" implying how worthless I am.

You are going to have to clarify what you mean by "verbally abuses". Nobody should be telling a medical student that they are worthless. Does he actually use those words? Verbal abuse should never be tolerated.

What you are describing is more that he thinks you are useless, not worthless, which is a subtle, but distinct difference. Are you on his rotation? If yes, why are you ever in a position where the attending has something for you to do and you aren't either 1) already doing it or 2) ready to do it. Do NOT get me wrong. Being nice to nurses and anesthesia is important. I would never tell someone not to be helpful to other services or ancillary staff. But you are not their student or their underling. I can understand this happening once a rotation, but if it is something that you are repeatedly told, there is probably an issue. Others might not be bothered as much by it, but I'd be pretty pissed, even as a resident, if there was something relatively small to be done on the surgical team side that you weren't on top of because you were helping out another team. I can understand in emergencies or when patient care will be adversely affected, but those instances are very far and few in between.

He also yells at the nursing staff constantly. The residents get their fair share too but he isn't as bad toward them since they have some competencies at least. All the nurses and residents tell me how he has no patience and yells all the time so don't take it personally. Why is he accepting med students to work with him at a teaching hospital then? Isn't patience the #1 thing teachers should have?

Is this pretty standard behavior for surgery attendings? Is he considered a "malignant attending" or am I seriously just a failure? haha

Yelling is counterproductive. At the same time, my sympathies for nursing staff, other residents and students is limited, depending on what exactly happened. I would never call yelling "justified", but I would consider it "normal" and "understandable" in many instances. Nurses gabbing about the weekend instead of getting something needed on the field. Resident not reading for the case and understanding the prerequisite anatomy to assist in the case. Medical student cutting too close to knots, adjusting lights, retracting poorly, suctioning poorly. That will make an operator's blood start to boil. Surgery is at it's core a high risk endeavor and is stressful. Practiced hands help to limit this significantly, but when you start getting in the way, things will get ugly fast. Remember, every attending in the academic center you are at can operate 50-100% faster without residents or medical students around. Academic surgeons, even the nastiest budget time because residents and medical students need to learn. But also remember, that budget is not unlimited.

I have been put in a position where I have had to take assignments away from medical students, even while I was a medical student, because things just had to be done faster or better than they were being done. It sucks and you feel bad, but you simply can't keep the patient under or hold up rounds forever. You noted that the residents get less crap thrown at them because they are "competent", you are implying yourself that the rest, nurses and medical students, are not competent. Nobody is expecting you to function like a resident. But, if you are getting yelled at for things that you should be able to master or things that you shouldn't be doing, there is more than a malignant personality at play here.


All of that having been said, the attending is 99% likely a sub-optimal or poor teacher. At the same time, nothing you have described is truly terrible. Could be actually malignant, sure, but not based on what you have said. And, he may actually be Satan incarnate. But, I can tell you that from my experience, when medical students complain about OR things or attending personalities, there is an underlying problem with the medical student at least 50%+ of the time. It is rarely the only issue, but it is usually a contributing factor. It drives me absolutely bananas when people blame others and don't look introspectively, regardless of the circumstances.

At the end of the day, there is nothing you can do about this attending, even if he is really a bad guy. All you can do is focus on improving yourself and your competency. If you are doing things perfect and they still complain, then just move on and don't sweat it. You can't make everyone happy and there are always cynical, angry people out there. But, realize that just because other people have had issues with an attending, doesn't make them malignant. If you are sucking at suctioning, fix it. Watch residents, ask residents, think through why your hand got hit back or why the suction was ripped away. Are you not anticipating what is about to happen? Are you not visualizing where the surgeon is trying to go and are blocking his eyesight? etc etc.
 
OP: Rise up and teach the attending a lesson. Take the pebble form his hand and remind him of it. Read up on interesting (but less known topics) related to your cases and pontificate to show your knowledge. If he raises his voice - you raise your plus a little more. Or just walk away and tell him you "don't have the time for this immaturity".

If you truly learn your craft and feel that you're on your way remind him of it. Tell him that although he started the game earlier you're on a path to surpass him in a relatively short amount of time.
 
OP: Rise up and teach the attending a lesson. Take the pebble form his hand and remind him of it. Read up on interesting (but less known topics) related to your cases and pontificate to show your knowledge. If he raises his voice - you raise your plus a little more. Or just walk away and tell him you "don't have the time for this immaturity".

If you truly learn your craft and feel that you're on your way remind him of it. Tell him that although he started the game earlier you're on a path to surpass him in a relatively short amount of time.


Obvious troll is obvious.
 
This is not standard behavior, and assuming you're not exaggerating you should probably tell the clerkship director--if not now, then at the end of the rotation. As they told us at our school, you paid $50k to go out there and learn, not to get verbally abused for no reason at all. Yes, it's a privilege that you're able to rotate with him. Yes, there will be "tough" attendings out there who will pimp you, intimidate you, and highlight your weakness (which is all OK, and actually beneficial to the learning experience). But that doesn't give anyone the right to verbally abuse another person or tell them they're worthless when they're just doing their job. This goes in every aspect of life. It's the bare minimum social standards that need to be followed when interacting with any human being, no matter how far away you are on the totem pole.
 
None of what you said actually sounds bad or malignant to me....maybe the yelling at everyone but that's about it.

Your suctioning sucks and interferes with surgery, so he smacked your hand away...seems pretty logical. You stop suctioning when you should, he can't see...makes sense. You're off with other departments, not being his medical student...seems reasonable to me.

Is he actually calling you names or putting you down? If not, I think you just need to grow a thicker skin. I got yelled at for much more insignificant things when I was working. Someone telling you not to stress them out is not verbal abuse, in my opinion.
 
Hitting people and calling them names is now more or less universally frowned upon in the workplace.

Also, if he's yelling at everyone, it's more likely that he personally is a jerk than that he is somehow surrounded by nothing but truly dangerous incompetents.
 
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The attending sounds like a douche. One of the things I hated most during 3rd year clerkships was when an attending would get mad at me when I didn't know how to do something when it was literally my first day on that rotation and I've never seen or done that thing before. Obviously you just started rotations so you're not really supposed to know anything yet lol. Anyway, you'll just have to take it for the time you're with him/her and daydream about the bovie exploding and mangling your attending's hand like I used to do during my surgery rotation. :laugh:
 
None of what you said actually sounds bad or malignant to me....maybe the yelling at everyone but that's about it.

Your suctioning sucks and interferes with surgery, so he smacked your hand away...seems pretty logical. You stop suctioning when you should, he can't see...makes sense. You're off with other departments, not being his medical student...seems reasonable to me.

Is he actually calling you names or putting you down? If not, I think you just need to grow a thicker skin. I got yelled at for much more insignificant things when I was working. Someone telling you not to stress them out is not verbal abuse, in my opinion.

Are you serious? This person is likely at the beginning of their third year, not a scrub tech, not a PA. Where might I ask was he/she supposed to learn how to appropriately suction? I dont remember seeing this in my first and second hear curriculum. You're not using a turkey baster here, improper suctioning can damage delicate tissues and complicate a surgery. The attending should not expect him/ her to understand how to clear the field appropriately unless he has taken the time to explain to students how to properly use suction relevant to the surgery being performed.
 
Are you serious? This person is likely at the beginning of their third year, not a scrub tech, not a PA. Where might I ask was he/she supposed to learn how to appropriately suction? I dont remember seeing this in my first and second hear curriculum. You're not using a turkey baster here, improper suctioning can damage delicate tissues and complicate a surgery. The attending should not expect him/ her to understand how to clear the field appropriately unless he has taken the time to explain to students how to properly use suction relevant to the surgery being performed.

If it isn't intuitive, the student shouldn't be asking for the suction then. Again, I am not against teaching. But expecting to be hand held through 3rd year and beyond is just silly. Suctioning and retracting needs to be done properly, the penalty for doing it poorly is high because exposure and visualization are everything in surgery, but it isn't rocket science. If you are unsure, you can ask someone to give you more instruction or simply watch someone who knows what they are doing do it.

It is simply unreasonable to expect instruction on every little small thing out there in medicine. I'm sorry, but you have to take some initiative about your own learning and sometimes simply figure it out on your own.
 
Are you serious? This person is likely at the beginning of their third year, not a scrub tech, not a PA. Where might I ask was he/she supposed to learn how to appropriately suction? I dont remember seeing this in my first and second hear curriculum. You're not using a turkey baster here, improper suctioning can damage delicate tissues and complicate a surgery. The attending should not expect him/ her to understand how to clear the field appropriately unless he has taken the time to explain to students how to properly use suction relevant to the surgery being performed.

He/she is also a professional student and should theoretically be a grown-up...it's well past time for information to be spoon fed to you in lecture. I doubt any attending expects you to know everything right off the bat, but it sounded to me like the OP had repeated instances where he was messing up and not improving...which would drive anybody crazy.

And come on man, it's a suction tube, not the da vinci.
 
Which is why I question why the **** we pay tuition for 3rd and 4th year. You're pretty much expected to figure everything out on your own which would be okay except you're paying 10s of thousands to be TAUGHT.
 
Nobody is going to hand hold you in the real world and nobody can really teach you "how to suction". ... Nobody is going to hand hold you through the basics (like using a suction or scissors) and nobody likes people who get in their way when they are focused. This isn't a teachable moment that is being missed. This is a medical student trying to do something they aren't comfortable with.
...

Yelling is counterproductive. At the same time, my sympathies for nursing staff, other residents and students is limited, depending on what exactly happened. I would never call yelling "justified", but I would consider it "normal" and "understandable" in many instances.

I have to disagree. These sound like pretty toxic attitudes to me. When I was an MS-III first learning to suction in the OR I was too timid--- I let the blood pool up excessively to avoid getting in people's way. The resident told me that I should be more aggressive with it, not to worry about getting in his way because having the field clear of blood was a lot more important, and he briefly took the suction and showed me how to use it. Total time: approximately 20 seconds. After that I did it (for the most part) correctly. That's a teachable moment. He could have also hit me and yelled at me for "stressing him out." That's the wrong way to handle it.

You correctly identify that yelling is counterproductive but a few seconds of handwaving later dismiss it as something that is fine to happen on a regular basis. Again, there are better ways to teach. Most medical students want to do a good job, talk them through the how and the why really briefly and they will likely do better from that point onward. And if there is a real emergency the last thing you want to do is start shutting down people's forebrains with a lot of yelling. Calm, not fear and aggression, is your friend in an emergency.

This kind of behavior is going to happen, and we all have to occasionally put up with it. OP, that is just what you need to do now. We don't have to make excuses for it though, and we certainly shouldn't emulate it.
 
First week for me ever in the OR and on gyn onc.. Is this pretty standard behavior for surgery attendings?

Let's not get too willy nilly with the word surgeon.

FWIW, the guy may be abrasive but you need to grow a thicker skin. As stated elsewhere, some attendings hand hold and walk you through everything and some expect you to either a) know how to do something or b) acknowledge you don't and speak up. If they're not the teaching type it is your responsibility to educate yourself and be able to participate in the surgery.

For those who feel there is not enough specific teaching regarding 3rd/4th year, the teaching dynamic has changed. More insight as to what needs to be learned is required and more personal prep work as well. This is to help prepare for the rest of your career where you won't be sitting in lecture hall being spoon fed everything. You likely read about the case prior to getting there and didn't expect the surgeon to walk you through that. There are manuals and videos online on how to suture, knot tie, retract, and suction. Indeed, motor tasks are more difficult to learn and perfect on ones own, but being proactive and asking for feedback or advice on how to improve goes a long way. Regardless, understanding the fundamentals prior to performing are critical. You wouldn't go in to the case without a general idea of the anatomy, why would you without an idea of how to participate?
 
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I think everyone is forgetting this is a gyn-onc "surgeon"...enough said ;)
 
Screeching, calling names, and hitting/throwing things (wtf) ona regular basis are antisocial habits that people have because they have poor social skills and can get away with them, not necessary facts of life. Witness the many sane people who do their critical, time sensitive, life and death jobs without doing any of that crap.
 
People who yell at others in general are pathetic people who are probably not fun to be around outside of work. So nothing of value is lost. Just roll your eyes internally and take things they say for granted, cause remember, there are people that have bad attitudes, but usually, they have ****** up lives and take it out on people on the lower part of the totem pole.

So basically, ignore everything he says when he yells, keep in mind he probably isn't anyone of actual value, and move onward.

And some slight reassurance, but ob/gyn and surgery sometimes has the rep. for rowdy personalities, so other specialties have a lot of level headed peeps.
 
If it isn't intuitive, the student shouldn't be asking for the suction then. Again, I am not against teaching. But expecting to be hand held through 3rd year and beyond is just silly. Suctioning and retracting needs to be done properly, the penalty for doing it poorly is high because exposure and visualization are everything in surgery, but it isn't rocket science. If you are unsure, you can ask someone to give you more instruction or simply watch someone who knows what they are doing do it.

It is simply unreasonable to expect instruction on every little small thing out there in medicine. I'm sorry, but you have to take some initiative about your own learning and sometimes simply figure it out on your own.

There were only 2 times this week he wanted me to suction. I had never been in an OR, seen suctioning before, etc. and I told him that. After I told him that, he didn't teach me how but instead said "if it isn't intuitive then you shouldn't be suctioning" and then gave took it from me and gave it to the resident. I tried taking it back later but didn't work. The 2nd time/surgery I told him I could do it at the beginning of the procedure and that's when I tried for the first time on my own from the beginning. I explained that part in my first post.

Now that it's the end of the week I'm starting to figure out what he wants. He has real high expectations and is also real impatient. So if you are doing everything he wants, then you're fine. If you mess up whatsoever, he goes off on you. Half of the time it's not your fault and he'll go off on you. All his staff say how bad of a communicator he is. Not the best for being in OR teaching med students who have never been exposed to the OR before. However, in clinic, since I actually have some clinical experience, I was okay and was able to meet his (or at least most of his) expectations. No yelling at me there, but I heard the nurses complain about how he went off on them for not following rules he never officially established in the clinic.

But many other ppl on this thread are also right that I need to grow thicker skin. I'm just not used to ppl being jerks for no reason and having no control over it. Generally if someone is a jerk, I can tell them off and ignore them and not interact with them ever again haha. Can't do that here...overall, I think it was a good lesson this week because now I know what to possibly expect from impatient, angry attendings. I don't see how any attending could be much worse than this, so if I am able to adjust to him, then I think overall this is a good lesson for future encounters with similar attendings.
 
I have to disagree. These sound like pretty toxic attitudes to me. When I was an MS-III first learning to suction in the OR I was too timid--- I let the blood pool up excessively to avoid getting in people's way. The resident told me that I should be more aggressive with it, not to worry about getting in his way because having the field clear of blood was a lot more important, and he briefly took the suction and showed me how to use it. Total time: approximately 20 seconds. After that I did it (for the most part) correctly. That's a teachable moment. He could have also hit me and yelled at me for "stressing him out." That's the wrong way to handle it.

You correctly identify that yelling is counterproductive but a few seconds of handwaving later dismiss it as something that is fine to happen on a regular basis. Again, there are better ways to teach. Most medical students want to do a good job, talk them through the how and the why really briefly and they will likely do better from that point onward. And if there is a real emergency the last thing you want to do is start shutting down people's forebrains with a lot of yelling. Calm, not fear and aggression, is your friend in an emergency.

This kind of behavior is going to happen, and we all have to occasionally put up with it. OP, that is just what you need to do now. We don't have to make excuses for it though, and we certainly shouldn't emulate it.

I have no idea what you are disagreeing with me about since you have repeated what I said. I am not implying in any way that this guy isn't a jerk, or that he is even remotely a good teacher. What I take issue with is the expectation of being hand held. An attending to not teach a medical student how to suction is a nothing. There are far bigger things that won't get taught that you will simply be expected to learn. What is far FAR worse than an attending not teaching a medical student how to suction is a medical student bitching about paying tuition and not getting hand held. The level of entitlement that medical students display is just absurd.

Did you expect an attending to teach you how to tie knots, suture, suction, cut suture, walk you through anatomy, do discharge summaries, setup clinic appointments, do each part of an exam etc etc.? Did you expect an attending to wait for you while you helped anesthesia? I absolutely agree that any time you can teach someone how to do something with minimal effort and time commitment, you should, as an attending, resident or even a medical student. But to see it as your right to that teaching because you pay tuition is just absurd and a poor reflection on that student. Certainly I don't want those people in my program because invariably I will end up doing most of their work for them because they can't keep up.
 
Did you expect an attending to teach you how to tie knots, suture, suction, cut suture, walk you through anatomy, do discharge summaries, setup clinic appointments, do each part of an exam etc etc.? Did you expect an attending to wait for you while you helped anesthesia? I absolutely agree that any time you can teach someone how to do something with minimal effort and time commitment, you should, as an attending, resident or even a medical student. But to see it as your right to that teaching because you pay tuition is just absurd and a poor reflection on that student. Certainly I don't want those people in my program because invariably I will end up doing most of their work for them because they can't keep up.

I taught myself how to tie knots, suture, the anatomy, setup appts, etc. However, suction and cut suture are things you learn during the surgery. How are you going to learn those things at home? So if the attending isn't willing to teach you those things and yells at you instead for not knowing how, then that's a pretty ****ty teacher and a jerk, no?

Like I said, I asked him how and all he did was take it away from me and give it to a resident. The residents have been the ones to teach me some of the small things so far. He has been a horrible teacher in the OR. He's just the kind of attending to have after you've had some exposure to the OR first, that's all. Complete newbies shouldn't be thrown in with him.
 
I taught myself how to tie knots, suture, the anatomy, setup appts, etc. However, suction and cut suture are things you learn during the surgery. How are you going to learn those things at home? So if the attending isn't willing to teach you those things and yells at you instead for not knowing how, then that's a pretty ****ty teacher and a jerk, no?

Like I said, I asked him how and all he did was take it away from me and give it to a resident. The residents have been the ones to teach me some of the small things so far. He has been a horrible teacher in the OR. He's just the kind of attending to have after you've had some exposure to the OR first, that's all. Complete newbies shouldn't be thrown in with him.

Personal opinion, if you watch someone suction/cut sutures for 30 minutes, you should be able to follow suit since the theory behind both activities is fairly logical. I understand that on your first day in an OR things are unfamiliar and if the attending is moving at warp speed, it is difficult to get acclimated, but it shouldn't take more than a couple cases to get the hang of those kinds of things. As a medical student, in the OR, most of your teaching should be coming from residents. If residents see that you are having trouble after a case, they should be telling you how to fix things and do better. I routinely take medical students to the inanimate skills lab to work on basic skills if they can't do things in the OR. I do not think it is the attending's job to get you up to speed. It is a great plus if they teach medical students as much as they can, but expecting them to walk you through every last step is ridiculous. And again, even as a resident, my patience wears extremely thin if someone can't grasp the basic concept of when to cut close to the knot and when to leave tails after I explain it to them. It is a single concept that carries to every single suture cut. While suctioning and retracting are slightly more complex, the goal is very simple, maximize exposure and visualization. You aren't dissecting with the sucker. You are keeping the field clear and keeping out of people's line of site. These are things that shouldn't take more than a couple of days to reach proficiency in.

The guy is probably a jerk, again, I have never disputed that. But, I certainly don't think that is a reason to complain. He has high standards and isn't a good teacher. But that is about it. Don't let your schooling interfere with your education. This is not the worst situation you will be in while in medical school or residency.
 
Oh come on.

OP, the best thing to do in the OR if you don't know what to do is just be quiet and stay out of the way.

Any surgeons here who don't believe the OR can be a miserable experience for students and it doesn't necessarily mean those students are whiny little bitches: the OR can be a miserable experience for students and it doesn't necessarily mean those students are whiny little bitches. Everyone's gotta vent sometimes.
 
Oh come on.

OP, the best thing to do in the OR if you don't know what to do is just be quiet and stay out of the way.

Any surgeons here who don't believe the OR can be a miserable experience for students and it doesn't necessarily mean those students are whiny little bitches: the OR can be a miserable experience for students and it doesn't necessarily mean those students are whiny little bitches. Everyone's gotta vent sometimes.

You are right, it doesn't necessarily mean anything this attending could be Satan incarnate. More likely than not, however, this is par for the course. And, on average, medical students are whiny and self-entitled, which is mostly because of softening curriculum and expectations. Even as a younger resident, I can see the interns (in every specialty) who are at a huge disadvantage because they were coddled and can't learn without hand holding. *shrug* It is my opinion that professional students should be the only person responsible for getting themselves to a point where they can practice whatever they are learning. Maybe that is too high an expectation.
 
Dang kids these days... havin' it so easy... not like in my day...

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You are right, it doesn't necessarily mean anything this attending could be Satan incarnate. More likely than not, however, this is par for the course. And, on average, medical students are whiny and self-entitled, which is mostly because of softening curriculum and expectations. Even as a younger resident, I can see the interns (in every specialty) who are at a huge disadvantage because they were coddled and can't learn without hand holding. *shrug* It is my opinion that professional students should be the only person responsible for getting themselves to a point where they can practice whatever they are learning. Maybe that is too high an expectation.
 
Personal opinion, if you watch someone suction/cut sutures for 30 minutes, you should be able to follow suit since the theory behind both activities is fairly logical. I understand that on your first day in an OR things are unfamiliar and if the attending is moving at warp speed, it is difficult to get acclimated, but it shouldn't take more than a couple cases to get the hang of those kinds of things. As a medical student, in the OR, most of your teaching should be coming from residents. If residents see that you are having trouble after a case, they should be telling you how to fix things and do better. I routinely take medical students to the inanimate skills lab to work on basic skills if they can't do things in the OR. I do not think it is the attending's job to get you up to speed. It is a great plus if they teach medical students as much as they can, but expecting them to walk you through every last step is ridiculous. And again, even as a resident, my patience wears extremely thin if someone can't grasp the basic concept of when to cut close to the knot and when to leave tails after I explain it to them. It is a single concept that carries to every single suture cut. While suctioning and retracting are slightly more complex, the goal is very simple, maximize exposure and visualization. You aren't dissecting with the sucker. You are keeping the field clear and keeping out of people's line of site. These are things that shouldn't take more than a couple of days to reach proficiency in.

The guy is probably a jerk, again, I have never disputed that. But, I certainly don't think that is a reason to complain. He has high standards and isn't a good teacher. But that is about it. Don't let your schooling interfere with your education. This is not the worst situation you will be in while in medical school or residency.

Agreed. Like I said, it wasn't after a few cases/attempts of suctioning that I wasn't getting it. It was literally the first one and rather than teach me something he just took it away. The next day I told him I could do it. I was doing fine at the beginning but this was technically my first time (since he didn't let me do before) and then he kept taking it away again and verbally being an ******* about it. He was simply very impatient, a poor communicator, a jerk towards ppl when he gets frustrated (which is often), and a poor teacher in the OR. He wanted me to already be very efficient at suctioning before I ever came in with him. That was the issue. And obviously that wasn't going to happen when it's my very first time in the OR period and he had no interest in teaching me in the OR.

However, as the week went on I adapted more to what he wants and what sets him off, so it wasn't too bad the last 2 days. It was a good lesson on how to deal with similar attendings in the future. When every single nurse, resident, and staff member say the same thing over and over about how he is a poor communicator, impatient and has a short fuse, I'm willing to bet it's something with him more than the students. Don't get me wrong...the students need to learn to suction, but they should not be yelled at and not taught how when it's their very first time in the OR.

Sidenote, he actually went off on one of the residents this morning. And honestly, I didn't feel very bad for her since he was doing that to me all week and no one ever tried to help me during a single instance.
 
Translation: I'm lazy and think everyone should spoon feed me because I'm helpless on my own.

I like how all the med students are on one side and most of the residents are on the other. Some residents are defending the med students here, but you're definitely not. I think you already forgot what it was like during your first time the OR.

Honestly, I'll probably develop your same attitude when I'm a resident...feeling no remorse for med students. You went through it, now they have to go through it. Grow thick skin and man up because you're going to be put in this situation from time to time.

I just personally feel these types of impatient physicians with short fuses should be not teaching the students, that's all. If they are annoyed by the student's lack of knowledge and experience, then why would put themselves in the situation to have students in the OR with them? Because they're at an academic hospital and they're required to? Probably.

I have no doubt that med students will annoy me also when I'm a physician, and I will handle that my simply not taking med students. It's not that hard.
 
I like how all the med students are on one side and most of the residents are on the other. Some residents are defending the med students here, but you're definitely not. I think you already forgot what it was like during your first time the OR.

Honestly, I'll probably develop your same attitude when I'm a resident...feeling no remorse for med students. You went through it, now they have to go through it. Grow thick skin and man up because you're going to be put in this situation from time to time.

I just personally feel these types of impatient physicians with short fuses should be not teaching the students, that's all. If they are annoyed by the student's lack of knowledge and experience, then why would put themselves in the situation to have students in the OR with them? Because they're at an academic hospital and they're required to? Probably.

I have no doubt that med students will annoy me also when I'm a physician, and I will handle that my simply not taking med students. It's not that hard.

Agreed. I can see myself not being interested in having med students around as much. But thankfully after residency, you don't have to be forced to be around an academic place, otherwise that would be a bit depressing.
 
What a crock.

If someone in pediatrics started slapping you away from a patient during your first umbilical line placement on a neonate, I bet you would go home and have a mouthful of words to say. Does that make you lazy and require spoon feeding? No. There is a vast difference between spoon feeding someone information they should learn independently and that which someone should demonstrate prior to malignant criticism.
 
I like how all the med students are on one side and most of the residents are on the other. Some residents are defending the med students here, but you're definitely not. I think you already forgot what it was like during your first time the OR.

Honestly, I'll probably develop your same attitude when I'm a resident...feeling no remorse for med students. You went through it, now they have to go through it. Grow thick skin and man up because you're going to be put in this situation from time to time.

I just personally feel these types of impatient physicians with short fuses should be not teaching the students, that's all. If they are annoyed by the student's lack of knowledge and experience, then why would put themselves in the situation to have students in the OR with them? Because they're at an academic hospital and they're required to? Probably.

I have no doubt that med students will annoy me also when I'm a physician, and I will handle that my simply not taking med students. It's not that hard.

Do you ask your PI to show you how to pipette? How to do a lit search?

I'm still in med school and I agree fully with him...it's not specific to your situation, I don't know it well enough, but generalizing to to a lot of students in my class some people just need to grow up and drop the sense of entitlement. Some people are on the wards repeatedly asking physicians to define this or that, what does this stand for, all the while holding a smartphone in their hand....it's just unbearable to see how irritating students can make themselves when a little effort is all that's required to make yourself not a nuisance.

Have you ever supervised people in a job? What runs through your mind if someone comes to you with everything they don't know how to do? You should see if you can learn it yourself, if not go to the resident, and then go to the attending. My perspective on it is that the attending is there as my safety net so I don't kill anyone while I learn, not to be my 1-on-1 tutor.

I freely admit I'm ignorant about many, many things, but I don't go waving it around in the face of the person evaluating me. I don't know how to use the EHR system, I don't know how to get to the cafeteria.....well ****, figure it out.
 
Do you ask your PI to show you how to pipette? How to do a lit search?

I'm still in med school and I agree fully with him...it's not specific to your situation, I don't know it well enough, but generalizing to to a lot of students in my class some people just need to grow up and drop the sense of entitlement. Some people are on the wards repeatedly asking physicians to define this or that, what does this stand for, all the while holding a smartphone in their hand....it's just unbearable to see how irritating students can make themselves when a little effort is all that's required to make yourself not a nuisance.

Have you ever supervised people in a job? What runs through your mind if someone comes to you with everything they don't know how to do? You should see if you can learn it yourself, if not go to the resident, and then go to the attending. My perspective on it is that the attending is there as my safety net so I don't kill anyone while I learn, not to be my 1-on-1 tutor.

I freely admit I'm ignorant about many, many things, but I don't go waving it around in the face of the person evaluating me. I don't know how to use the EHR system, I don't know how to get to the cafeteria.....well ****, figure it out.

Good story, bro. :thumbup: Too bad none of your examples apply to this situation. I never ask attendings what abbreviations stand for,where something is located, what drugs to treat with, etc. I look those up myself. Yes if it's my first time in the OR and on top of that learning to suction, that's not something I can look up. Someone has to show me once first, rather than saying "if it not intuitive then you shouldn't be doing it" and taking it away from me.

I agree we all need to do some growing up in clinicals and shouldn't be spoon fed, but that's not being fed how to do something in the OR for the first time.

Anyways, I'm done with that attending and I also learned how to handle/expect these bad attendings at times. It was a good lesson. Btw, I also did surgeries with his partners (including the one who everyone thought was worse than him) and I was not yelled at once. They had me do the same things as him. He was a poor communicator on what he wanted and then would yell at me for not doing it. I probably also learned a bit from being yelled at by him so that I was doing most things a step ahead when I was with his partners, though.
 
Good story, bro. :thumbup: Too bad none of your examples apply to this situation. I never ask attendings what abbreviations stand for,where something is located, what drugs to treat with, etc. I look those up myself. Yes if it's my first time in the OR and on top of that learning to suction, that's not something I can look up. Someone has to show me once first, rather than saying "if it not intuitive then you shouldn't be doing it" and taking it away from me.

I agree we all need to do some growing up in clinicals and shouldn't be spoon fed, but that's not being fed how to do something in the OR for the first time.

Anyways, I'm done with that attending and I also learned how to handle/expect these bad attendings at times. It was a good lesson. Btw, I also did surgeries with his partners (including the one who everyone thought was worse than him) and I was not yelled at once. They had me do the same things as him. He was a poor communicator on what he wanted and then would yell at me for not doing it. I probably also learned a bit from being yelled at by him so that I was doing most things a step ahead when I was with his partners, though.

I think you might have glossed over this part in my post ".it's not specific to your situation, I don't know it well enough"

Brah.
 
I like how all the med students are on one side and most of the residents are on the other. Some residents are defending the med students here, but you're definitely not. I think you already forgot what it was like during your first time the OR.

Honestly, I'll probably develop your same attitude when I'm a resident...feeling no remorse for med students. You went through it, now they have to go through it. Grow thick skin and man up because you're going to be put in this situation from time to time.

I just personally feel these types of impatient physicians with short fuses should be not teaching the students, that's all. If they are annoyed by the student's lack of knowledge and experience, then why would put themselves in the situation to have students in the OR with them? Because they're at an academic hospital and they're required to? Probably.

I have no doubt that med students will annoy me also when I'm a physician, and I will handle that my simply not taking med students. It's not that hard.

*yawn* I work more with medical students than any resident in the entire 900 bed hospital that I work at. I spend more hours daily teaching medical students on my service and even on other services that we are consulting or are being consulted by than any other resident. Why? Because it is a personal goal of mine to help make anyone on the path behind me better than I was at the point that they are at. I am all about medical (surgical) education. I have a tremendous amount of patience and sympathy for students. I have yet to hear a physician say, "Well I had to go through it, so everyone else has to go through it." You may be assuming that that is what people are saying, but it is simply not true.

I am a couple of years ahead of most of you. I went through likely a very similar environment that most of you are when on clerkships. What I am saying is that students are over protected. I felt over protected as a student. The expectations are lower and simply put the services are easier to run than in the past. In my opinion, having gone through that and started residency hurts physicians in the long run.

Again, from the beginning, I have said that this guy is likely a jerk. But if you can't recognize that you are expecting people to hand hold you, I'm not really sure how you can be helped. :confused: This isn't about the attending and his personality. This is about your expectations for what an attending should be spending their time teaching you.
 
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First week for me ever in the OR and on gyn onc, this attending always has med students retract and suction...which is pretty standard I'm sure. No one has explained to me how to "suction correctly." When I see blood, I try to suction. Half of the time I do, he hits my hand away. So then when I'm more cautious not to get in his field, he yells at me for not suctioning. Then he starts telling the resident how it's hard for him to operate when he has to suction for himself. I very nicely tell him I can do it for him, he gives it back but then takes it from me everytime I'm about to suction.

Then all day inside and outside the OR he verbally abuses me as much as possible. Yells at me, basically tells me how worthless I am, etc. There's been a number of times when the anesthesiologist or nurse asks for my help, then while I'm helping them he yells at me and tells me "how about you help with this instead of standing around." The anesthesiologist actually spoke up for me and said I was helping him. Of course, my attending didn't apologize to me or anything. Instead he loves making comments like "I've been working for 25 years, I shouldn't feel stressed in the OR so don't stress me out on this next case" implying how worthless I am.

He also yells at the nursing staff constantly. The residents get their fair share too but he isn't as bad toward them since they have some competencies at least. All the nurses and residents tell me how he has no patience and yells all the time so don't take it personally. Why is he accepting med students to work with him at a teaching hospital then? Isn't patience the #1 thing teachers should have?

Is this pretty standard behavior for surgery attendings? Is he considered a "malignant attending" or am I seriously just a failure? haha

Sounds like the key to me. Just be nice and as helpful as possible and give as much effort as you can. Sometimes you will be surprised........ But the worst thing you could do is take it personally at this point.
 
1) you should bring this up to the clerkship director once all the grades are in and settled.... not necessarily for you but for the benefit of future students. Maybe your clerkship director needs to set up a skills day or two about basic OR stuff that doesn't come up as much in 1st and 2nd year like sutures, suctioning, tools and their names etc which is what we got and it was helpful. Part of your obscenely high tuition pays for administrative types or docs that do some administrative stuff and are supposed to be updating curriculum and making your education the best it can be. Give them some material so they can do their job.

2) yes this attending is malignant, and despite their technical skills I don't think they're a great doctor because to me to truly be excellent a physician, as leader of a care team, needs to foster some kind of non-malignant group dynamic. You can still run the show and run a tight ship with out being an absolute douche about it. Good attendings will have you wanting to earn their respect instead of trying to avoid their temper tantrums. Unfortunately surgery is still a bit of a good old boys club and has had trouble transitioning into the world where MD doesn't stand for Minor Deity
 
You are right, it doesn't necessarily mean anything this attending could be Satan incarnate. More likely than not, however, this is par for the course. And, on average, medical students are whiny and self-entitled, which is mostly because of softening curriculum and expectations. Even as a younger resident, I can see the interns (in every specialty) who are at a huge disadvantage because they were coddled and can't learn without hand holding. *shrug* It is my opinion that professional students should be the only person responsible for getting themselves to a point where they can practice whatever they are learning. Maybe that is too high an expectation.

Ladies and gentlemen, I think we have found the Law2Doc of surgery.
 
There's also the fact that this might seem like a terrible time now but you will barely even remember it next year.
 
I hate reading this kind of stuff. It's pathetic how immature and arrogant physicians are.
 
The attending sucks. Just try to learn something from the experience and move on. I've had bad experiences like that before. The lessons that were taught to me through yelling have actually been ingrained in me, so unfortunately I have to admit that yelling is an effective teaching style sometimes.
 
OP, I'm curious if your opinion, expressed last year in a thread where another poster complained about 3rd year and you told them "Jesus Christ stop complaining", has changed now
Jesus Christ stop complaining. it beats sitting in front of a laptop for 10 hours/day studying all the time like in 1st and 2nd years. I know there is still some studying to do in 3rd and 4th years, but nothing like during the 1st 2 years! I am a second year and cannot WAIT for clinicals. I'm so tired of sitting in front of a laptop all day everyday.

I've talked to many 3rd and 4th years too and they all say clinicals are WAAAY better than the first 2 years since you are actually in the hospital working with people. They said it's more time consuming but still way better than studying in front of a laptop all day. Stop complaining.
 
I hate reading this kind of stuff. It's pathetic how immature and arrogant physicians are.

So arrogant it's so ridiculous. It's an inferiority complex in my opinion.
 
OP, I'm curious if your opinion, expressed last year in a thread where another poster complained about 3rd year and you told them "Jesus Christ stop complaining", has changed now

haha, nicely done, sir.

Definitely has changed. Although I'm still glad to be in 3rd year now rather than 2nd since that means I'm closer to finishing med school. Rdy to be done with this. I'm pretty confident on what field I want to do now. I wish I could apply to residency now and be done with it lol
 
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