Is this considered Clinical Volunteering?

[pedssurgtobe]

I was just wondering if volunteering at a physical therapist's office directly with the patients is considered clinical volunteering? Obviously I know that there is interaction patients, but I just wasn't sure if doing physical therapy volunteering constituted clinical for med schools.

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but I was just curious! Thanks.

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[Lya]

Yes, it is clinical volunteering (as long as there's direct patient contact to the point that you can smell them).

 

[joonage]

As LizzyM always says, if you're close enough to smell the patient, it's clinical.

People do clinical volunteering ranging from large hospitals to nursing homes. A PT clinic would still be considered clinical.

 

[mehc012]

As LizzyM always says, if you're close enough to smell the patient, it's clinical.

People do clinical volunteering ranging from large hospitals to nursing homes. A PT clinic would still be considered clinical.

LizzyM actually participated in a large thread on nursing homes in which she stated she does NOT consider them clinical volunteering. I wouldn't be so certain about the PT either.

I personally think it should count, but my opinion matters about this much:

 

[Lya]

LizzyM actually participated in a large thread on nursing homes in which she stated she does NOT consider them clinical volunteering. I wouldn't be so certain about the PT either.

I personally think it should count, but my opinion matters about this much:

Yep, good point. She meant if you are playing bingos and just talking to people, it won't be clinical. Thanks for bringing that up.

OP, maybe you can describe what exactly you are doing. That should clarify a lot of things.

 

[ericksonj15]

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[Lya]

Not exactly, I recall her saying in that thread that even performing certain tasks for the nursing home residents in their rooms wouldn't count as clinical. Her qualifier was more along the lines of a physician should be present performing medical procedures, etc.

Oh really? I didn't know that. Thanks for correcting me.

Then it sounds like, unless you are a CNA, pretty much everything else in nursing home could be nonclinical...

 

[mehc012]

Oh really? I didn't know that. Thanks for correcting me.

Then it sounds like, unless you are a CNA, pretty much everything else in nursing home could be nonclinical...

Yup...this is why I had a problem with that thread.

 

[joonage]

That seems odds that nursing home wouldn't be considered. A lot of ER volunteers just stock shelves and stuff charts but it's still considered clinical?

 

[mvenus929]

You don't need clinical volunteering. You need clinical experience, which can range from shadowing to volunteering to an actual job. The purpose of clinical experience is to see if you can work with patients and to see if you understand the job a physician does. Working in a PT office would fulfill the former, but not the latter; you'd need to shadow or do something else to fulfill that.

This is probably why LizzyM says that nursing home volunteering doesn't generally count as 'clinical'... because you don't see a physician too much in a nursing home (when I worked with a geriatrician, we did nursing home visits one afternoon per week). You may still get the great experience of working with nursing home patients, but you wouldn't necessarily get the exposure to physicians that would allow you to understand their job.

 

[ericksonj15]

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[LizzyM]

When in doubt, call it "non-clinical."

A person receiving care from a PT is a "patient". I would call that clinical care.

A person living in a nursing home is a "resident". Unless you are doing something to them that requires a doctor's order (which generally means you are a CNA or other licensed professional), or you are shadowing a professional, these are just people going about their daily life, playing bingo, listening to music, discussing current events or whatever. That is not to say that experiences with people who are elderly or disabled are not valuable and are not valued by the adcoms but they aren't always considered an exposure to clinical care (helping you understand whether medicine in the right career for you). On the other hand, going back to a thread from a day or two ago, these experiences do show that you not only want to help people but that you are spending your time helping people.

 

[mehc012]

When in doubt, call it "non-clinical."

A person receiving care from a PT is a "patient". I would call that clinical care.

A person living in a nursing home is a "resident". Unless you are doing something to them that requires a doctor's order (which generally means you are a CNA or other licensed professional), or you are shadowing a professional, these are just people going about their daily life, playing bingo, listening to music, discussing current events or whatever. That is not to say that experiences with people who are elderly or disabled are not valuable and are not valued by the adcoms but they aren't always considered an exposure to clinical care (helping you understand whether medicine in the right career for you). On the other hand, going back to a thread from a day or two ago, these experiences do show that you not only want to help people but that you are spending your time helping people.

Again, I can see some valid arguments for the "nursing homes aren't clinical exposure" argument, but not the ones you make.

There are practices which call their patients 'clients' or 'customers' instead of 'patients', and that does not change what they are actually doing. I have yet to meet a nursing home nurse who didn't consider them patients regardless of the PC label at their institution. Now, an Assisted Living community is different; there the residents are expected to be mostly capable of independent life, and it's more of a social community and a backup for when things go wrong. You don't usually live in an actual nursing home unless you are mentally or medically unable to live on your own.

Even in the ER, the volunteer is never the one performing the activities ordered by the doctor...that doesn't mean that there aren't medically necessary and/or doctor-ordered actions going on constantly in a nursing home. Heck, most of them perform PT, which apparently counts!

Claiming that a nursing home is just a place where 'residents' go about their daily lives is borderline insulting to the nurses who work there...if the argument is that there is no exposure to doctors at work or that most of the medical management of these patients is made by off-site doctors, so you are exposed to less of it than a normal hospital volunteering gig, that's fine. But arguing that it doesn't count unless you're performing medical procedures yourself is inconsistent with the overall stance on clinical volunteering.

 

[LizzyM]

Again, I can see some valid arguments for the "nursing homes aren't clinical exposure" argument, but not the ones you make.

There are practices which call their patients 'clients' or 'customers' instead of 'patients', and that does not change what they are actually doing. I have yet to meet a nursing home nurse who didn't consider them patients regardless of the PC label at their institution. Now, an Assisted Living community is different; there the residents are expected to be mostly capable of independent life, and it's more of a social community and a backup for when things go wrong. You don't usually live in an actual nursing home unless you are mentally or medically unable to live on your own.

Even in the ER, the volunteer is never the one performing the activities ordered by the doctor...that doesn't mean that there aren't medically necessary and/or doctor-ordered actions going on constantly in a nursing home. Heck, most of them perform PT, which apparently counts!

Claiming that a nursing home is just a place where 'residents' go about their daily lives is borderline insulting to the nurses who work there...if the argument is that there is no exposure to doctors at work or that most of the medical management of these patients is made by off-site doctors, so you are exposed to less of it than a normal hospital volunteering gig, that's fine. But arguing that it doesn't count unless you're performing medical procedures yourself is inconsistent with the overall stance on clinical volunteering.

I am not calling for volunteers to do things that require a doctor's order. I'm saying that when a doctor's order is being carried out, or when one is being examined or treated by a physician, the object of those ministrations is a patient. The rest of the time, the person is not a patient. If you are coloring with kids in the waiting room of a hospital, not patients. If you are assisting a therapist that therapist is following doctor's orders and so it's clinical. If you are shadowing the physician while he examines the patient: clinical.

If I'm sitting in a wheelchair watching Suzy play Chopin on the piano, am I a patient? If I'm playing bingo or doing a jigsaw puzzle, am I a patient?

If you are close enough to smell patients -- which means you aren't even required to touch them but just be in their close presence, then you've got a clinical experience but they have to be patients.

Working as a babysitter is not clinical experience even though you may be feeding, changing, bathing the little darlings. Those same acts in a health care faclity would be considering nursing care and are by doctor's orders.

Volunteering whether clinical or not is good experience. A paying job is good experience. Knowing what a career in medicine involves is essential and can be acquired in a number of ways. Be sure you can connect the dots and explain how your experiences have informed your decision to pursue this career.

 

[snorlax]

I am not calling for volunteers to do things that require a doctor's order. I'm saying that when a doctor's order is being carried out, or when one is being examined or treated by a physician, the object of those ministrations is a patient. The rest of the time, the person is not a patient. If you are coloring with kids in the waiting room of a hospital, not patients. If you are assisting a therapist that therapist is following doctor's orders and so it's clinical. If you are shadowing the physician while he examines the patient: clinical.

If I'm sitting in a wheelchair watching Suzy play Chopin on the piano, am I a patient? If I'm playing bingo or doing a jigsaw puzzle, am I a patient?

If you are close enough to smell patients -- which means you aren't even required to touch them but just be in their close presence, then you've got a clinical experience but they have to be patients.

Working as a babysitter is not clinical experience even though you may be feeding, changing, bathing the little darlings. Those same acts in a health care faclity would be considering nursing care and are by doctor's orders.

Volunteering whether clinical or not is good experience. A paying job is good experience. Knowing what a career in medicine involves is essential and can be acquired in a number of ways. Be sure you can connect the dots and explain how your experiences have informed your decision to pursue this career.

So if we are in a hospital volunteer position that involves substantial time with patients at the bedside, is the experience considered clinical whenever the doctors/nurses come in and non-clinical whenever we are alone with the patient?

 

[LizzyM]

So if we are in a hospital volunteer position that involves substantial time with patients at the bedside, is the experience considered clinical whenever the doctors/nurses come in and non-clinical whenever we are alone with the patient?

In a hospital or a clinic or a doctor's office, a person seeking or receiving care is a patient. I think we all agree on that statement. If you are close enough to smell patients, it is a clinical experience.

If I have dementia, or if I physically disabled, or if I have a psychiatric illness I may be a "patient" to the visiting nurse or physical therapist who comes to my home and while being cared for by those professionals I might assume the title, "patient". I think that we can agree that when a nurse, physician or other health care provider provides clinical services, the person receiving those services might correctly be called a patient (although some providers prefer terms such as "client") but when someone comes into my abode to give me a haircut, or pray with me, or drink a cup of tea with me, am I still patient? If I go out in the car for a ride to Walmart, am I a patient? If I am so young that I am still attending school, and I have a physical disability or a inborn error of metabolism, am I a patient when I am in the classroom or the lunchroom?

Is it really so hard to distinguish between patients and non-patients? Do you understand that respecting persons means respecting their identify as patients and non-patients depending on the setting and circumstances?

 

[snorlax]

In a hospital or a clinic or a doctor's office, a person seeking or receiving care is a patient. I think we all agree on that statement. If you are close enough to smell patients, it is a clinical experience.

Is it really so hard to distinguish between patients and non-patients? Do you understand that respecting persons means respecting their identify as patients and non-patients depending on the setting and circumstances?

Got it. Thanks for the clarification!

 

[1cor1311]

I was just wondering if volunteering at a physical therapist's office directly with the patients is considered clinical volunteering? Obviously I know that there is interaction patients, but I just wasn't sure if doing physical therapy volunteering constituted clinical for med schools.

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but I was just curious! Thanks.

yes

 

[mehc012]

In a hospital or a clinic or a doctor's office, a person seeking or receiving care is a patient. I think we all agree on that statement. If you are close enough to smell patients, it is a clinical experience.

If I have dementia, or if I physically disabled, or if I have a psychiatric illness I may be a "patient" to the visiting nurse or physical therapist who comes to my home and while being cared for by those professionals I might assume the title, "patient". I think that we can agree that when a nurse, physician or other health care provider provides clinical services, the person receiving those services might correctly be called a patient (although some providers prefer terms such as "client") but when someone comes into my abode to give me a haircut, or pray with me, or drink a cup of tea with me, am I still patient? If I go out in the car for a ride to Walmart, am I a patient? If I am so young that I am still attending school, and I have a physical disability or a inborn error of metabolism, am I a patient when I am in the classroom or the lunchroom?

Is it really so hard to distinguish between patients and non-patients? Do you understand that respecting persons means respecting their identify as patients and non-patients depending on the setting and circumstances?

Wait, now I'm confused...bringing someone a cup of water in the ER waiting room is a clinical experience, but hanging out with a kid who is gowned up and about to undergo surgery while they wait is not? What about in post-op, or while they're in the consult room? Personally, I believe that when they check in to a medical facility with the expectation of receiving some form of medical treatment, they are a patient for the duration of their stay...but your prior post suggests that waiting room experience does not qualify, and now I'm really just confused.

 

[LizzyM]

Wait, now I'm confused...bringing someone a cup of water in the ER waiting room is a clinical experience, but hanging out with a kid who is gowned up and about to undergo surgery while they wait is not? What about in post-op, or while they're in the consult room? Personally, I believe that when they check in to a medical facility with the expectation of receiving some form of medical treatment, they are a patient for the duration of their stay...but your prior post suggests that waiting room experience does not qualify, and now I'm really just confused.

If you are sitting around a table IN A WAITING ROOM, coloring or playing with Legos, it might be a stretch to call it a clinical experience It seems no different than interacting with children in an afterschool setting who are coloring or playing with Legos. Clearly, a child gowned and ready for surgery, or coming out of anesthesia is a person receiving medical care. Think of a snapshot of the activity. If you asked someone, "point to the patient", would the task of identifying a patient in the picture be difficult? Would the person even see someone whom they would label "the patient"?

If you have any doubts as to whether there is a patient in the picture, call it non-clinical. In my experience, adcoms are much more generous, if you will, with people who do things that might be clinical but call them "non-clinical" than to call something clinical that seems to be a stretch of that definition.

 

[mehc012]

Cool, good to know. I think that puts mine at only ~1/3 clinical, which is a little annoying as the online system lumps all volunteer hours together, so it's mixed up with my other 100% clinical position (and since they keep asking me to work extra shifts, it's nowhere near a consistent proportion of one to the other!).

I'm sorry to be nitpicky in these, but some of the answers seemed contradictory - ER waiting rooms treated differently than other waiting areas, nursing homes w/ no doctors being treated differently than other centers w/ no doctors (PT), etc. I'd imagine a snapshot exercise being just as difficult in an ER waiting room as any other, and ridiculously simple in a nursing home, where the residents wear gowns half the time and some are bed-ridden, on IV meds/O₂, etc. I'm not trying to make the definition fit what I need - I don't need extra clinical, I took the position on because I enjoy it and I got to know the surgical staff a little (and will hopefully get to observe in the OR soon) - I just would rather be working from an internally-consistent definition in the future!