Is this feasible?

[Columnar]

So, I'm currently matched to a program starting in July 2013. I have realized that I don't want to be in this specialty and would like to go into Anesthesia preferably. Given that the match is coming up soon and that there likely will be unfilled spots, is it reasonable/doable to apply for unfilled spots in the scramble/post scramble for the following year?

I am assuming that if I applied/took a position for 2014 it would NOT be a match violation, since I would start my currently matched to program regularly and then switch if I found a position.

Anyone care to provide advice on this situation, and whether it's possible/reasonable to do? Thanks.

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[jls34]

As a corollary to this question, does anyone know if you have to be unmatched to participate in the SOAP/scramble process? If someone were to realize they wanted to pursue another specialty from that which they initially applied and found out they had matched on Monday of match week, could they still participate in SOAP for another specialty?

 

[Columnar]

As a corollary to this question, does anyone know if you have to be unmatched to participate in the SOAP/scramble process? If someone were to realize they wanted to pursue another specialty from that which they initially applied and found out they had matched on Monday of match week, could they still participate in SOAP for another specialty?

You can only scramble/SOAP if you are unmatched. As with my situation, you cannot take another spot unless you request a waiver from NRMP or fulfill 90 days I think i is of training to your currently matched program. So say you match in IM and then decide you want to do neuro, you either have to ask for a waiver or start your program and then switch. Kind of ridiculous but that's how it works. Otherwise, it's a match violation.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

So, I'm currently matched to a program starting in July 2013. I have realized that I don't want to be in this specialty and would like to go into Anesthesia preferably. Given that the match is coming up soon and that there likely will be unfilled spots, is it reasonable/doable to apply for unfilled spots in the scramble/post scramble for the following year?

I am assuming that if I applied/took a position for 2014 it would NOT be a match violation, since I would start my currently matched to program regularly and then switch if I found a position.

Anyone care to provide advice on this situation, and whether it's possible/reasonable to do? Thanks.

This is totally fine. You'd need to set up an ERAS application, register for the match, and you'd be able to apply to advanced positions starting in 2014.

As a corollary to this question, does anyone know if you have to be unmatched to participate in the SOAP/scramble process? If someone were to realize they wanted to pursue another specialty from that which they initially applied and found out they had matched on Monday of match week, could they still participate in SOAP for another specialty?

As mentioned above, no. If you match completely (i.e. into a Catgorical, or a Prelim + Advanced). If you match only into a Prelim, you can SOAP into an Advanced spot. If you match only into Advanced, then you can SOAP into a prelim. If you don't match at all, you can SOAP into anything.

There's 3 weeks between when rank lists are due and match week. If you've changed your mind, simply withdraw your rank list and don't match, and then participate in SOAP / apply again next year.

 

[Columnar]

This is totally fine. You'd need to set up an ERAS application, register for the match, and you'd be able to apply to advanced positions starting in 2014.




Thanks for the response. If I don't want to register for the match again, can I simply send my CV/profile or old ERAS application to the programs and explain my situation? I assume that there will be spots post SOAP that would likely be available. I really would like to avoid the match again if at all possible.

 

[K31]

Thanks for the response. If I don't want to register for the match again, can I simply send my CV/profile or old ERAS application to the programs and explain my situation? I assume that there will be spots post SOAP that would likely be available. I really would like to avoid the match again if at all possible.

You could do that, but I imagine it's highly unlikely that there will be open anesthesiology positions post-SOAP.

 

[Columnar]

You could do that, but I imagine it's highly unlikely that there will be open anesthesiology positions post-SOAP.

How do you figure that? I can't apply now, it's too late and there were 52 open slots last year after the match. I am pretty sure that I can apply during SOAP and see how things go. I don't think there are other options otherwise really.

 

[gutonc]

How do you figure that? I can't apply now, it's too late and there were 52 open slots last year after the match. I am pretty sure that I can apply during SOAP and see how things go. I don't think there are other options otherwise really.

I have no idea where you got those numbers. According to Charting Outcomes 2012 there were 8 Categorical and 10 Advanced spots left last year. There are no data that I could find about what was left after SOAP but I doubt there were more than 1 or 2.

Thanks for the response. If I don't want to register for the match again, can I simply send my CV/profile or old ERAS application to the programs and explain my situation? I assume that there will be spots post SOAP that would likely be available. I really would like to avoid the match again if at all possible.

This statement and the one above are incongruous. If you want to SOAP, you need to be registered for the Match. Since SOAP happens entirely through ERAS, you will also need to have an active ERAS profile. If you want to take your chances with something being available post-SOAP, you don't need to do either of these things...but that would be insane.

 

[Columnar]

I have no idea where you got those numbers. According to Charting Outcomes 2012 there were 8 Categorical and 10 Advanced spots left last year. There are no data that I could find about what was left after SOAP but I doubt there were more than 1 or 2.



This statement and the one above are incongruous. If you want to SOAP, you need to be registered for the Match. Since SOAP happens entirely through ERAS, you will also need to have an active ERAS profile. If you want to take your chances with something being available post-SOAP, you don't need to do either of these things...but that would be insane.

I'm not sure where you are getting this info, but there were 52 open anesthesia and 86 open radiology spots post match last year. Post-scramble/SOAP, I don't know.

So for SOAP I have to register through ERAS? Ugh. I thought I could just SOAP without having to register again. Why would it be insane to do it otherwise btw?

 

[Noegrus]

I'm not sure where you are getting this info, but there were 52 open anesthesia and 86 open radiology spots post match last year. Post-scramble/SOAP, I don't know.

So for SOAP I have to register through ERAS? Ugh. I thought I could just SOAP without having to register again. Why would it be insane to do it otherwise btw?

Because the odds of landing a spot in anything including surgery prelim after SOAP is over are nil. There will be no spots after SOAP. If something gets left over, it will be a primary care specialty spot in bumblef**k that not even desperate imgs wanted.

 

[Columnar]

Because the odds of landing a spot in anything including surgery prelim after SOAP is over are nil. There will be no spots after SOAP. If something gets left over, it will be a primary care specialty spot in bumblef**k that not even desperate imgs wanted.

Not sure where you guys are getting this information. How can you possibly know whether there would be spots after SOAP or not? There are post SOAP/scramble positions all the time, every single match, and even currently, there are spots in a number of specialties at decent programs. Blindly saying there will be no spots is silly imo.

 

[gutonc]

I'm not sure where you are getting this info, but there were 52 open anesthesia and 86 open radiology spots post match last year. Post-scramble/SOAP, I don't know.

So for SOAP I have to register through ERAS? Ugh. I thought I could just SOAP without having to register again. Why would it be insane to do it otherwise btw?

My bad...I saw programs in the list on page 3and my brain read "positions." I stand corrected. Your numbers are still off though. There were 22 unfilled PGY1 and 17 unfilled PGY2 gas spots last year...39 total.

But yes. SOAP is basically a mini-Match. You need to have an ERAS application and be registered with NRMP.

 

[Columnar]

I cited my source. What's yours?

And yes. SOAP is basically a mini-Match. You need to have an ERAS application and be registered with NRMP.

Well I went through the match last year for Rads and while I matched into Rads, you can look at the programs that did not fill, from the NRMP. I looked at the programs last year that went unfilled. Same thing with Anesthesia. In 2011, they also had like 50 or so open spots post MATCH, like I said, I don't know how many they had post scramble at the time.

That sucks though regarding having to go through the NRMP again. I mean clearly it's not a match violation since I would be complying with my contract but what happens if I don't match in Anesthesia if I do this? I just stay with my current program? Will the NRMP somehow get involved though and tell my program anything?

would there be any consequences other than losing a few bucks if I do register with ERAS/NRMP and I SOAP and I come empty handed? I guess that's one of the bigger concerns because I certainly at least don't want to lose my current spot if I don't get a new one in Anesthesia.

 

[gutonc]

Well I went through the match last year for Rads and while I matched into Rads, you can look at the programs that did not fill, from the NRMP. I looked at the programs last year that went unfilled. Same thing with Anesthesia. In 2011, they also had like 50 or so open spots post MATCH, like I said, I don't know how many they had post scramble at the time.

That sucks though regarding having to go through the NRMP again. I mean clearly it's not a match violation since I would be complying with my contract but what happens if I don't match in Anesthesia if I do this? I just stay with my current program? Will the NRMP somehow get involved though and tell my program anything?

would there be any consequences other than losing a few bucks if I do register with ERAS/NRMP and I SOAP and I come empty handed? I guess that's one of the bigger concerns because I certainly at least don't want to lose my current spot if I don't get a new one in Anesthesia.

See above...mea culpa.

I honestly don't know what the consequences would be for SOAPing (and failing) WRT to your currently matched program but there are rules about when you have to tell an advanced program that you're not going to go there and it may have passed already. aPD generally knows the answer to these questions.

But honestly, one reason the Match was implemented was to prevent people from doing what you're trying to do, which is Match in multiple programs/specialties and then choose the one you like best. This isn't med school. The rules are different. I'm fairly certain that what you're suggesting would be a Match violation and you would stand to lose both spots (and your chance to try again for a period of time after that).

 

[Columnar]

See above...mea culpa.

I honestly don't know what the consequences would be for SOAPing (and failing) WRT to your currently matched program but there are rules about when you have to tell an advanced program that you're not going to go there and it may have passed already. aPD generally knows the answer to these questions.

But honestly, one reason the Match was implemented was to prevent people from doing what you're trying to do, which is Match in multiple programs/specialties and then choose the one you like best. This isn't med school. The rules are different. I'm fairly certain that what you're suggesting would be a Match violation and you would stand to lose both spots (and your chance to try again for a period of time after that).

Well aPD has already said that I COULD apply for 2014, as I would fulfill my obligation for 2013 with my current program. I have every intention of going there in 2013. I guess I just don't know what would happen if I failed to match into a spot for 2014 for anesthesia.

 

[greg1184]

Its a darn shame you don't want to go into rads. Did auntminnie scare you away?

 

[Columnar]

Its a darn shame you don't want to go into rads. Did auntminnie scare you away?

Haha, not just AM, but it's scary to think that I'm going to spend another 5 years with residency/fellowship to only be able to work in North Dakota, and for 250k. I'm also a woman, and I'm fearful of being discriminated against per se since I'm not a 6' dude who can talk about sports, having to work nights for years, with no possibility of being a partner, and having to sacrifice more life with little to no reward. I"m the only chick in my incoming residency program this year as well, and it's a predominantly male residency program as well. Not that I have anything against dudes, but I feel I will be isolated as well too, not just now, but in the future as well. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a great specialty and the backbone of medicine, but we also have a dumb, blind government who doesn't see things correctly and I'm sure they will continue to cut away until it's bare bones, greedy senior partners who will cannibalize their young instead of seeing the bigger picture, etc. So while AM may exaggerate things to a certain extent and I take what's said there with a grain of salt, there is sadly some truth. Even today I looked at job postings, even in a place like IN for a mammographer job, for 250-300k. Sad we've gotten here.

Also while I don't need to be in NY, LA, or Boston and I'm a midwest girl, I also have a husband who's in a career with somewhat limited mobility job wise and I don't want to set up a nightmare scenario for us either. Will things change in the next 5-7 years? Perhaps, but it's too long of a road to speculate on what ifs. I'd rather go into a different specialty that I also liked in med school, that will give me a possibility to do procedures and make a difference, that while it also has its pitfalls and issues, may be more feasible to have a life in given my personal situation.

 

[Noegrus]

As an anesthesiology applicant myself, all I am going to say is that you need to look at where those unfilled positions were (most if not all in geographically undesirable locations and lower tier programs, except one at wake forest and one at UNC in the last two years), look at the number of unmatched US seniors and IMGs applying to gas, look at the unmatched GS US seniors, and then email the program coordinators of the unfilled positions and ask when they filled. You will get the answer. The 'unfilled' go unfilled for two major reasons - undesirable location +/- bad training (UMass Wooster) or ranking too few people (UNC/Wake). They always fill in the SOAP. However, it sounds like you have decided to go that way no matter what. So, well, good luck.

 

[Columnar]

As an anesthesiology applicant myself, all I am going to say is that you need to look at where those unfilled positions were (most if not all in geographically undesirable locations and lower tier programs, except one at wake forest and one at UNC in the last two years), look at the number of unmatched US seniors and IMGs applying to gas, look at the unmatched GS US seniors, and then email the program coordinators of the unfilled positions and ask when they filled. You will get the answer. The 'unfilled' go unfilled for two major reasons - undesirable location +/- bad training (UMass Wooster) or ranking too few people (UNC/Wake). They always fill in the SOAP. However, it sounds like you have decided to go that way no matter what. So, well, good luck.

I hardly consider UMass a bad location and/or bad training program, and there were a number of other decent programs that did not fill-in Tx, Loyola, etc. If you think you need to only go to NW or UPenn to get good education because you have SDN bias, so be it. Also I find it absurd that you think any coordinator in their right mind would even bother answering when they filled their unfilled spots or would even know this information. But suggesting that all/most of the programs that did not fill suck, is naive imo. In the last match, according to what I saw, there were 16 unmatched US seniors in Anesthesia, and around 30 or so in 2011. Comparing AMGs/IMGs is ridiculous. I'm not an IMG, so it's a moot point. If I were, then I'd think about this more, but given that I'm an AMG from a decent school, who matched Radiology, I can't be that horrible. Also, anesthesia's competitiveness was ranked as low from 2010-2012, and intermediate in 2009. So not sure what you are suggesting. Anesthesia while a good specialty is not ortho or derm or rad onc to match into. Lastly, anesthesia is one of those specialties that has a significant amount of switching into from other specialties.

I will likely try to SOAP into an open spot since aPD says that's it's not a violation and see if I can get something that way, or perhaps apply to St. Barnabas or something that has an open spot. I certainly don't need to train at Harvard or UPenn to get good training.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

The NRMP shared some SOAP data at our national meeting, but I don't see it posted on the NRMP website. I don't know what's allowed and what's not, I'll ask them.

Bottom line is this: There were less than 40 anesthesia spots in SOAP last year. I can't tell how many filled in SOAP, but SOAP filled 91% of all available spots. So, my guess is that they all filled. I don't know how many were Categorical (which the OP can't apply to) vs Advanced.

The only way to apply in SOAP is ERAS. Paper/Email apps are not allowed. The only way to get a spot is via NRMP.

The OP can apply for Advanced anesthesia spots for 2014. They would then have 3 matches -- prelim 2012, rads 2013, and anesthesia 2014. All legal. The OP cannot apply for Categorical anesthesia spots in this match -- they would start July 2013.

Can applying via SOAP and not getting a spot create a problem? Maybe. Anyone who interviews the OP for a spot is probably going to want to talk to their current PD. But, their current PD is their prelim PD, who isn't really going to care either way. But their Rads PD has some chance of hearing of all of this. If so, they can't stop the OP from starting a rads residency (since the match is legally binding). But, perhaps, they could make life difficult for the OP going forward. I'd like to think that this type of behavior wouldn't happen.

Could getting a spot in SOAP cause a problem? Maybe also. you're still match committed to your rads program for 2013. But if I were your PD, and you already had a new spot for 2014 (and hence were going to jump ship), I might be interested in arranging for you to not start rads at all, so I can get someone new. The OP can certainly refuse (and the match is still binding), but we can all imagine how uncomfortable that could be for everyone. So, it's possible that the OP could be unemployed for the 2013 academic year (or need to find something new to do).

If you match into Anesthesia and then love Rads, you'll be screwed.

 

[Noegrus]

Oh well, she got banned. At least this settles the issue.