Is this legal?

[Attending1985]

I have a friend who took an admin position and she told me the new ops manager in our department is an idiot and is trying to make it so that if your patients cancel and you can’t fill the spots you use PTO for those spots. Is that even legal?

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[nexus73]

As a non lawyer, I assume if you’re employed as a doc on salary that it’s almost certainly not legal to force you to use pto for portions of the day.

Also, fu7k that admin, I guess since they see zero patients they get to use their pto and then stop getting paid once pto runs dry.

If they really want to not pay doctors for no shows they could switch to RVUs

 

[PsyDr]

“Show me where that is in the contract. Contracts require "consideration" for services. What consideration is present for my professional time, because you’re surely not saying that my professional time has zero consideration?”

CC legal.

 

[Bartelby]

I very much doubt it is legal too.

Either way, I would honestly quit if an employer implemented this. It would basically mean you no longer have time off, unless this particular clinic has a virtually 100% fill and show rate. If other psychiatrists there feel the same, a group letter or meeting making this clear seems to be in order.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

I mean this would never hold up legally. There is no salaried profession I've ever heard of where you're charged for PTO in micro-increments because you aren't 100% productive all day but are still present physically for work if it is available.

Maybe if you were being paid hourly and there was something in the contract about only being paid hourly for time when you're actually seeing patients.

 

[clausewitz2]

I mean this would never hold up legally. There is no salaried profession I've ever heard of where you're charged for PTO in micro-increments because you aren't 100% productive all day but are still present physically for work if it is available.

Maybe if you were being paid hourly and there was something in the contract about only being paid hourly for time when you're actually seeing patients.

For any graduating residents looking for jobs who read this in the future - if you are getting paid hourly and they expect you to commit to a certain number of hours, don't ever agree to a contract that has a provision like this.

 

[the5thelement]

I dont know about legal but it is highly offensive and a slap in the face of the psychiatrists who work there . I have already seen the no show rates dwindle to almost zero over the last few years thanks to automated reminders, availability and convenience of zoom video calls and an ever increasing load of patients ready to replace the no-showed patient at a moments notice ! If you let the MBAs run the show, this en****tification will be the natural outcome .

 

[Attending1985]

I dont know about legal but it is highly offensive and a slap in the face of the psychiatrists who work there . I have already seen the no show rates dwindle to almost zero over the last few years thanks to automated reminders, availability and convenience of zoom video calls and an ever increasing load of patients ready to replace the no-showed patient at a moments notice ! If you let the MBAs run the show, this en****tification will be the natural outcome .

I think that’s what they want. They want you 100% full with a waiting list of patients with urgent needs wanting to get in but can’t because your availability is poor.

 

[TexasPhysician]

The simple answer is that this is a terrible company - leave now.

Legally? You’d need to see the contract. If you are working based on RVU’s, you are only paid for productivity. If no productivity and you want to be paid, you use PTO.

If salaried, there is no requirement to be productive. Your presence means you are available to work. It is the companies problem to keep you busy. The company would not be able to force PTO during your presence without encountering legal problems.

Regardless the contract should spell this out. If it doesn’t, stop signing contracts that aren’t negotiated with the assistance of an attorney.

 

[comp1]

They can put a lot of things in a contract. They could probably put this into a contract and it might even be justified if there was some other massive consideration like a massively inflated salary for the other hours. PTO is often heavily commented on in a contract, but generally about requiring advanced notice to avoid cancellations. It's not a matter here of what is "legal" as in violating labor law. You're not a 13 year old in a coal mine, you're a physician being paid hundreds of thousands of dollars. It's a matter of what is in the contract. This, almost certainly, is not in the contract because it's weird. I tend to think physician unions are usually pretty useless, but this is one rare case where they could shut something down right quick. Of course a government employed physician would never be asked to do this since finances aren't the same.

 

[mistafab]

There's an ancient word that can help here.

"no"

 

[Candidate2017]

It's likely not legal. But there are many bigger questions, including:

Does this nonsense ever pop up in any other specialty? Med students take note, if you haven't already.
Why does this stupid person feel empowered to dream this up?
What are you (and your colleagues) doing or not doing that allows this stupid person to believe they can do this to you?
When do you plan to tell this stupid person their stupid idea is stupid?
Do you feel deserving of respect? Personally? Professionally?

On the other hand, I do feel people deserve what they get. Because they generally agreed to it or are complicit with their situation. If one's primary concern is collecting a biweekly paycheck and not having to deal with the practice of medicine (including practice management, billing, independence, etc.), then being treated as a run of the mill employee (e.g., replaceable, nonessential, told how to work) is part of the package.

 

[comp1]

Being salaried can be absolutely great and it can block a lot of the perverse incentives that are present in medicine if you're able to stay out of the RVU model entirely. Don't let this sort of bizarro thing turn you off from salaried work.

 

[Attending1985]

Being salaried can be absolutely great and it can block a lot of the perverse incentives that are present in medicine if you're able to stay out of the RVU model entirely. Don't let this sort of bizarro thing turn you off from salaried work.

I agree, I’m base plus production and I make more than base but I would actually rather be salaried and never deal with rvus again. I’m not super financially motivated and I’d rather know I have the autonomy to provide good care and maintain my own sanity instead of more money.

 

[annoyedpsychiatrist]

I have a friend who took an admin position and she told me the new ops manager in our department is an idiot and is trying to make it so that if your patients cancel and you can’t fill the spots you use PTO for those spots. Is that even legal?

that is beyond sketchy. You are still working that day, as you cant just go and do other things, lol. Ive never even heard of this. It may be legal, probably state dependent, but even if it is they wont keep providers with this policy. I would say no, and if they didnt agree quickly exit that job.

 

[Ironspy]

 

[OMSRealWeebHours]

Just walk out on them mid-day if they try to do that, then when they call back say "sorry I'm on PTO"

Seems they are getting complacent and believe they can make demands. THEY need the doctor to treat the patients, not the other way around here.