Is this Normal in Shadowing a Doctor?

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That is not normal. I have shadowed several physicians and they just ask for the patients consent for me to be there right away.
 
I don't think it's normal to not see patients when you are shadowing but you have to appreciate where he is coming from. Whenever I've shadowed, I was allowed into the exam room, and the doctor would explain I was a student, and ask the patient if they minded that I was there, and I have not run into a patient that has said no yet.

They've been more likely to engage me - asking where I go to school, do I want to be a ______ (fill-in-the-blank for whatever doctor I am shadowing - family practice, general surgeon, etc.), where do I want to go to med school, and so on.

I think a big part of shadowing is definitely seeing the interaction with patients, so you may want to try to find another doctor that is willing to let you have more access to what their typical day is like, but be reasonable. It's a privilege to be able to do it. Good luck.
 
I shadowed a GI last year and he told me to stay out of the room until he put the patients to sleep, then I could go in. It was kinda weird and I felt like I was gonna get him in trouble, especially since there were a couple of times where I would walk in and the patient would still be conscious. When that happened the patients were cool about it and I had some great conversations, but it made the doc nervous.

Like you said I would have preferred him to just ask them permission beforehand but I guess he didn't want to.
 
Most private offices have some form of HIPPA form they can make pre-med students sign that helps elevate whatever fear keeps them from wanting you around.

Ive even had to sign these lame things as a med student when doing out-pt rotations.

I think you should find another doctor who is used to having student/shadowers.
Sitting outside his office will be boring/awkward/useless
 
I've never had this happen to me, but I've only shadowed doctors at a teaching hospital. The doctor had the nurse ask the patient if it's okay that a student be in the room, so I knew before I walked in that I was welcomed. I've only had two patients refuse and that's when I was shadowing an ob/gyn.

Try to find another doctor. Seeing them interact with the patient is basically the entire purpose of shadowing.
 
FloatOn said:
Try to find another doctor. Seeing them interact with the patient is basically the entire purpose of shadowing.
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This is pretty much how I see it too.
 
I had the exact same problem. It was a policy at the hospital because in the past some volunteer said something insensitive to a patient and the patient sued the hospital. Now they are EXTREMELY careful about letting volunteers follow doctors around
 
I don't think this is normal, as someone else had said earlier, the purpose of shadowing a doctor is to see the patients and perhaps interact with them a little bit. I'm glad he's conscious about HIPPA, but it's not violating it if he asks the patient if they will allow a student to be in the room to observe and the patient consents.

In all the shadowing experiences I've had, that's what the doctor did. No patient has said no in my experience either. Find another doctor or ask him if he can ask the patients for consent first and then let you in.
 
tjquinn said:
I had the exact same problem. It was a policy at the hospital because in the past some volunteer said something insensitive to a patient and the patient sued the hospital. Now they are EXTREMELY careful about letting volunteers follow doctors around
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Wow, that really sucks. Obviously the volunteer didn't understand what shadowing basically means: being a shadow.
 
To the op, look for someone else. You're going to miss out the whole reason for shadowing. There won't be any point in your being there. It's like going to a restaurant and just sitting at the table and never ordering any food. Why did you go in the first place? It's a waste of time, really. Find someone that will let you sit in on patient sessions. Almost all the patients that came to the GP that I shadowed let me in. Some were happy to have me there. They were excited to see a young person begin their journey to becoming a doctor. While others were completely indifferent and had a 'I don't give a **** attitude." :laugh: There was only a couple of times where the person didn't want me in there. Look for someone else.

ejay286 said:
I shadowed a GI last year and he told me to stay out of the room until he put the patients to sleep, then I could go in. It was kinda weird and I felt like I was gonna get him in trouble, especially since there were a couple of times where I would walk in and the patient would still be conscious. When that happened the patients were cool about it and I had some great conversations, but it made the doc nervous.

Like you said I would have preferred him to just ask them permission beforehand but I guess he didn't want to.
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LOL. That sounds kind of creepy. I would have felt like a pervert peeping in on someone without their consent. It's like you snuck your way in.

"OK, the coast is clear. You can come in now!" :laugh::laugh:
 
Hippa, schmippa.

Find a new doctor to shadow. You won't benefit nearly as much from this experience if you dont' get to see patients.

Most docs understand that you learn by observing, I'm not sure why this guy forgot that. I work in a hospital and have done a lot of shadowing. You many have to get some background clearances to shadow in the OR depending on the hospital, but generally in the office obtaining the patients verbal permission should be enough.
 
I have seen all aspects of the spectrum. One doc I shadowed had me scrub up and during surgery was asking me to pass him tools like I was a surgical nurse. After the surgery back in his office he asked if I was OK with doing a suture. 0_o

Another doc I shadowed wouldn't let me talk to any patients, like the OP is mentioning.

But most of them they gave me a white lab coat and let me go into the consult with them and he would explain that I was a student, patients never seem to mind.
 
Enoko said:
But most of them they gave me a white lab coat and let me go into the consult with them and he would explain that I was a student, patients never seem to mind.
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What was the purpose of the white lab coat? That seems kinda silly.
 
No that is very odd. Every time i have shadowed (have around 100 hours currently with 6 different physicians) the doctors havn't asked the patient for consent that im there. I was just that guy wearing a lab coat with tape over the name and the same colored scrubs as the doctor. For all they knew i was a doctor : )
 
I shadow a pediatrician, and his clinic just had me sign a HIPPA form. The nurse informs the patient/parent that the doctor has a student shadowing him, and when we arrive the doctor asks if there are any objections. 99.9% of the time, its ok and they ask me a ton of questions. Sometimes there are young girls that will need a full exam, so understandably I give them their privacy.
 
When I shadowed a medical examiner, I had to sign a HIPPA form. I would suggest probably finding another doctor.
 
Seems pretty normal to me. Actually, with my the number of doctors I had to talk to before one was willing to let me shadow, I'd think your experience was far above the median response. However, as you have probably inferred from all the replies, there doesn't seem to be much of a point to shadowing him but not actually observing patient interaction except for maybe an idea of how busy he is. Try another doctor?
 
I agree with the other posters... find a new doctor to shadow. If you know the doctor you are intending to shadow well, you can explain that you would be happy to sign a HIPPA form if that would make him more comfortable. But if not... just find someone new.

In all my past experiences shadowing the doc just asked permission before we came in. There were a few patients (espcially males during a physical) that declined and asked me to stay out of the room (understandable since I'm a woman) but 90% of the time they were completly OK with me being there.
 
That almost doesn't make sense, you can always get permission for being present. The possible consequences of violating HIPAA are so ridiculous that people practically have a phobia of it, and it's so complicated like every other legal act in the USA that so few people understand it. Maybe I'm just projecting because I don't and I'm afraid of violating people's rights (although I do respect the general spirit of HIPAA. I worked at a hospital in the middle east where people shouted across hallways to discuss a patient's progress, I wouldn't want that done with me.)

Still, bureaucracy is such a bitch.
 
This is why I don't want to shadow. My mind is already made up about it all. I had to do that kind of thing in paramedic school, and it was at times quite akward.
 
All I can say is in my recent shadowing experience it doesn't seem like the most pleasant one. The Dr. allows me to come shadow him, and gives me the impression that I am bothering him if I say something to him. If I say anything, he doesn't seem to want to respond. This guy is the chairman of the surgery department of a huge research university. He doesn't care if I come in, but it's definitely the most impersonal experience I've ever encountered. Maybe he is different in a non-professional atmosphere? For me his demeanor isn't bad, because it allows me to focus on the patients, however no positive energy is created between him and I and I feel like an LOR is an impossible feet. Maybe he is like this because the level of his responsibility is so great? I think with a loaded clinic with patients waiting, lots of serious cases, a reputation to uphold as being the chairman, surgical duties, and administrative duties he has a right to being a bit callus. However it is to the point where he is a robot and he has basically zero compassion for the patients. He calls patients psychos, mental cases, and yells at the nurse. Most of the time this is not the case though. He also gives highly detailed explanations to the patients of their conditions and gives them options that they don't even understand. Every patient that comes has no idea what option to choose, and you can tell the patient doesn't know what he's talking about to the slightest extent. I just feel this guy is like a machine, are most surgeons/physicians like this? Others that I have met seem to have a smile on their faces and utilize a compassionate side coupled with their excellent minds, but this guy is like a military general that admits he doesn't remember who anybody is. I guess that is who he always was, or came with the training of being in a dedicated profession. All I can say is, I'm sure I've met nicer doctors in my time. Just because you are a serious doctor, that doesn't mean you are better or any more gifted than somebody who smiles or says something funny once in a while to make the patient comfortable.
 
yeah happened to me when i shadowed. maybe because i shadowed a cosmetic plastic surgeon (he did derm stuff as well so i saw that stuff). it would have been sweet to go in the room though. 😀
 
yeah not all doctors will be welcoming and enthusiastic, just stick it out and try to learn as much as you can and get on his good side and stay there till he write you that letter of rec (assuming you want one from him).
 
it does not happen to me!
smile.gif
 
FrkyBgStok said:
yeah happened to me when i shadowed. maybe because i shadowed a cosmetic plastic surgeon (he did derm stuff as well so i saw that stuff). it would have been sweet to go in the room though. 😀
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I shadowed a plastic surgeon for 30 hours, I saw every patient regardless of whether they were awake or asleep. I was also with him when he did rounds on two of them.
 
Total, I have over 140 hours of shadowing. I can probably count the amount of patients who I didn't see on one hand and that was only because they were obgyn patients who weren't big on having someone who appears male in the room (even though I have to see an obgyn too).
 
DrMagic said:
All I can say is in my recent shadowing experience it doesn’t seem like the most pleasant one. The Dr. allows me to come shadow him, and gives me the impression that I am bothering him if I say something to him. If I say anything, he doesn’t seem to want to respond. This guy is the chairman of the surgery department of a huge research university. He doesn’t care if I come in, but it’s definitely the most impersonal experience I’ve ever encountered. Maybe he is different in a non-professional atmosphere? For me his demeanor isn’t bad, because it allows me to focus on the patients, however no positive energy is created between him and I and I feel like an LOR is an impossible feet. Maybe he is like this because the level of his responsibility is so great? I think with a loaded clinic with patients waiting, lots of serious cases, a reputation to uphold as being the chairman, surgical duties, and administrative duties he has a right to being a bit callus. However it is to the point where he is a robot and he has basically zero compassion for the patients. He calls patients psychos, mental cases, and yells at the nurse. Most of the time this is not the case though. He also gives highly detailed explanations to the patients of their conditions and gives them options that they don’t even understand. Every patient that comes has no idea what option to choose, and you can tell the patient doesn’t know what he’s talking about to the slightest extent. I just feel this guy is like a machine, are most surgeons/physicians like this? Others that I have met seem to have a smile on their faces and utilize a compassionate side coupled with their excellent minds, but this guy is like a military general that admits he doesn’t remember who anybody is. I guess that is who he always was, or came with the training of being in a dedicated profession. All I can say is, I’m sure I’ve met nicer doctors in my time. Just because you are a serious doctor, that doesn’t mean you are better or any more gifted than somebody who smiles or says something funny once in a while to make the patient comfortable.
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I had a similar experience while shadowing a trauma surgeon who carried a lot of responsibility and prestige around the hospital. The first several times I shadowed him were very uncomfortable, many of my questions were met with silence and I felt like my presence was a burden and slightly embarrassing to him. Then almost inexplicably he warmed up to me, and before I knew it he was asking me about my personal life and joking around. I got to follow him into the OR and even help out to an extent in the ED during trauma cases. He ended up writing me a LOR and I imagine he probably had some good things to say. Keep at it with your guy and perhaps things will turn around.
 
ILikeDrugs said:
What was the purpose of the white lab coat? That seems kinda silly.
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Not silly at all. It really does have a bearing on whether or not a patient is willing to let a student observe if they come in wearing day-to-day attire as opposed to a lab coat.
 
If you can't be in the room when he is with patients what are you going to be doing? Just sitting in his office while he dictates or returns patient phone calls? I guess that has some value but I don't know if it fits the definition of shadowing.
 
Sankaku said:
I had a similar experience while shadowing a trauma surgeon who carried a lot of responsibility and prestige around the hospital. The first several times I shadowed him were very uncomfortable, many of my questions were met with silence and I felt like my presence was a burden and slightly embarrassing to him. Then almost inexplicably he warmed up to me, and before I knew it he was asking me about my personal life and joking around. I got to follow him into the OR and even help out to an extent in the ED during trauma cases. He ended up writing me a LOR and I imagine he probably had some good things to say. Keep at it with your guy and perhaps things will turn around.
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The good thing is that he lets me see have pretty much unlimited contact with patients, but he is in the clinic a limited amount of times. Right now I have to wait all the way until the end of the year to get operating room training to be able to see him operate, but I was met warmly by his staff about wanting to do this. This guy appears very rigid, but maybe he has a good spirit towards medicine. I will see what happens, but so far he has not wanted to connect to me once. I think he doesn’t want to appear too easy to get to know; maybe past experiences played an impact on this. All in all he seems to be a very precise physician, and I am learning a lot.
 
familyaerospace said:
I shadowed a plastic surgeon for 30 hours, I saw every patient regardless of whether they were awake or asleep. I was also with him when he did rounds on two of them.
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I find it interesting that plastic surgeons allow shadowing. Granite not all of this is beautification medicine, but plastic surgical operations I would think aren’t the types of procedures patients would allow or want non-physician pre-medical students in the room. Furthermore I can’t imagine a breast cancer patient feeling too comfortable about this. My current surgeon never asks patients if I would be allowed to come in, he just has me dress like a physician so there are no questions. He didn’t explicitly say that is what he is doing, but I know at this school in other departments every patient is asked the question first if a pre-medical student can observe. This guy either doesn’t know about the regulation, simply doesn’t abide by it, or knows some hole in the regulation I am not aware of.
 
Seems pretty worthless if you can't seen the doctor-patient interaction. I would find another doc to shadow
 
For the record, it's HIPAA, not HIPPA.

I've run into a few docs that are really stringent about shadowing in the way you're describing. Most will just have me sign some disclosure saying that everything I hear is confidential, and that I take full liability for any disclosure and whatnot. One hospital was trying to make me have liability insurance (for just following around a doc, not even touching the patients). Some even make people jump through hoops just because they don't want to say no, but it really is a hassle for them.

If you don't want to sit around the office all day, just find someone else to shadow. It's not a big deal.
 
Yes, the proper shadowing experience you want is the one where you can enter the room with the physician and observe the physicians methodology and demeanor in the way they interact with the patients. It is also implicated that once you leave the room, you magically get struck with amnesia and forget all the details regarding the history and physical. What you're supposed to get out of it is the connection and trust displayed between the physician and the patient and how that leads to a systemic quality delivery of healthcare.

Remember that a doctor agreeing to take you in is doing so out of altruism. Pre-meds shouldn't think its their right to have access to these experiences just because your fellow "Jones" premed got one. If you don't like the condition placed on your experience, then you have the right to not go through with it. Just know that it's extremely creepy to be approached by a completely random stranger asking for a major favor from you. Most likely, shadowing experiences come from doctors whom you already know, or through connections you've made through intermediary parties.

Some here are taking this too far in the other direction. Some are complaining that the physicians were not pampering you? The last time I checked, shadows don't talk. So if you are asking them questions, you are REALLY getting in their way. Seriously. Just observe and be grateful for being allowed to be there. You aren't even med students. They (assuming they are not even academic preceptors anyways) have no obligation to teach you anything. You can answer if they initiate questions directed towards you, or if they start small talk. But understand that the more time they spend towards your attention, the less time they'll get to spend with their spouses and children that evening.

The dude who said they were even offered to stitch, that's an automatic sue and win (assuming you actually did it and the patient found out). I was talking with an attending and a surgical tech regarding what med students can and cannot do in comparison to surgical techs. I can't even imagine what kind of commotion a pre-med would cause in the middle of all this. Bottom line, play the part of shadow to the T. No talking, no touching, and get out of people's way.
 
AnxiousBoy said:
Some here are taking this too far in the other direction. Some are complaining that the physicians were not pampering you? The last time I checked, shadows don't talk. So if you are asking them questions, you are REALLY getting in their way. Seriously. Just observe and be grateful for being allowed to be there. You aren't even med students. They (assuming they are not even academic preceptors anyways) have no obligation to teach you anything. You can answer if they initiate questions directed towards you, or if they start small talk.
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that depends on the doc. i shadowed one who definitely acted like i was a burden to him and vaguely answered my questions. but i have also shadowed some wonderful doctors (educators) who graciously welcomed questions and were very happy to answer them.

But understand that the more time they spend towards your attention, the less time they'll get to spend with their spouses and children that evening.
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i'm sure you know you are exaggerating here, but questions really don't take THAT long to answer.
 
DrMagic said:
I find it interesting that plastic surgeons allow shadowing. Granite not all of this is beautification medicine, but plastic surgical operations I would think aren’t the types of procedures patients would allow or want non-physician pre-medical students in the room. Furthermore I can’t imagine a breast cancer patient feeling too comfortable about this.
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For the most part, the patients as they were going in the OR didn't realise I wasn't part of the OR staff. I dressed just like anyone else and there was often another observer (or in one case MANY observers). When we went on rounds he just said "This is F.A., he's my student and will be observing today." Of course the plastic surgeon can be a mega charmer when he wants to be and he is really hard to say no to.

I've seen lots of lipo, a tummy tuck, a strange nose repair that a derm apparently botched or something, a very unusual type of breast reconstruction, breast augmentations, plus a few biopsies, and something with the eye lid which I can't remember what it was called (it's also 2 am so you will have to forgive me on that).

Actually, he was the easiest person to shadow.
 
rejectedhardcor said:
I asked a GP at my town's family clinic if I could shadow him this summer and he agreed. However, he said that I could not be in the room when he interacted with any of the patients due to HIPPA rights. I understand the need to protect patient's privacy and follow HIPPA guidelines, but is it normal to shadow a physician and not even see him engage his patients?
What will I be doing the entire time, and will it even afford me an appropriate view of what his daily routine is like?
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Act like Dr. House…..the rules are only in your mind. I would recommend starting on Vicodin before doing this….makes it seem more believable. And get a cane as well.
 
gujuDoc said:
I used to help some now med students get shadowing experiences back in the day. Some of them even got in with surgeons. but keep in mind my original point. You want to get good shadowing, try to talk to academic physicians because they will often be more happy to do it as they and their patients are used to seeing students in and out of their examination rooms as you have med students, residents, etc. to contend with. in academic hospitals you will also have nursing students and other allied health professional students. So it is often more comfortable for these patients and these patients that don't care if there is an extra observer.

But like people said, don't ask the patient's questions. And ask the doctor questions when he's not busy if you are going to ask questions. I just stood and observed.

I was able to get others in with orthopedic surgeons, general surgeons doing GI surgery, neurosurgeons, plastic surgeons, etc. I only shadowed a few neurologists though and a PM&R doctor or 2. Maybe shadowed an OB/Gyn once for a day.

But again try at the academic hospitals. Its easier that way.
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Great advice, but academic institutions are all I am around. I have never shadowed a doctor at a hospital that didn't have a residency or medical school at it. Furthermore the only doctors that have allowed me to shadow them are surgeons in different fields, out of bad luck every single IM specialist I talked to said not allowed. This works out for me, because I am really mainly interested in surgery, but I feel it is important to get a broad shadowing background before medical school. A surgeon I have a meeting with on Friday is nice, but the current doctor I predominately shadow (also Professor but he doesn't teach a lecture class) is not nice. He won't talk to me anytime even when he is done. I guess that's the way it is in medicine. I wonder if I will be that way in the future. He also had an extensive military background and was a high ranking member. I am grateful that he allows me to shadow him, he even said I was the only one he was letting shadow, and that no one else was to come. However, it would be nice to get a blurb from him here and there for a second after shadowing. He is in a specialty that I am really interested in and thus I take this shadowing extremely serious. He also has the full power in admissions to the residency in the future and has a lot of other administrative pull. I want to make a good impression with him. I need to know how to handle this because he could help me a lot for the future. I think I will just keep being respectful and see what happens, keep my lips zipped and wait to see if he talks to me. Also the only family friend Dr. who knows me is an oral and maxillofacial surgeon, with a dental degree, medical degree (individually; before his DDS), general surgery residency, and also an oral and maxillofacial surgery residency. I need to get to know Dr.'s because I think med schools require this for admission. I have 3 research professors that know me well, with impeccable credentials that are writing me letters, but I think I need MD letters.
 
gujuDoc said:
Nah med schools just want to see you know what you are getting yourself into to some degree or have thought about it. you are good to go. also no need to get a MD letter. i have zero MD letters and I don't honestly care cuz professor letters are the most important ones. MD letters are only worthy as character letters if you've either workd with an MD or volunteered at an MD's office or clinic not just shadowing or did research with an MD.

I got 3 professor letters and 2 character letters. one of them was my dean's letter from my advisor and one was my peer letter from a 4th year med student. But I know if I had been more established in research I'd have gotten a research PI to write one. i think those are some of the most powerful letters because youw ork with them and they see your capacity to reason, work ethic, etc.
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Well thank you for the recommendation, but I still would think there are some schools that require letters from physicians. I know that DO schools are pretty adamant about this, and I would think it’s because the DO degree is a minority. I would like to believe that some personal connections to people that are at the top of medical schools can play some weight if you have a letter from them. Maybe not just at their school, but maybe another school might want to look more into your file if you have LORs from physicians in academia. Also down the road, if you have made contacts with the people that play an impact on residency admission, at least I would think it would raise your candidacy for admission to the program a tad bit. If you were in control of admissions and you actually knew the person who was applying, and can personally attest to how they are, wouldn’t you want to consider that individual pretty strongly versus someone you haven’t even met?
 
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