Is this normal??

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Absentia

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I just asked the doctor Im shadowing if I could shadow him next week and he said "go find some other doctor to be nice to you"
and so I was like, "can I get your email so maybe I can get a letter of recommendation?" and he was like "I'm not writing you a letter of recommendation but if you wana talk ...bla bla bla"

This came as a total shocker to me b/c he's always been nice to me, then out of nowhere hes a complete douche. I always looked up to doctors but thats definately not the case anymore..

anyway ... how does one go about getting a letter of recommendation, I thought I was doing what I needed to do to get one... 🙁
 
It's just differs from doc to doc. Some will let you shadow long-term others will do it only once or a couple of times--remember, they're doing you a favor, with no real incentive for them to spend time helping you. Some will write you a letter, some won't, and at least he was up front about it. IMO, a letter from a doctor who you just shadowed wasn't going to be that strong anyways: "So and so came and watched me and seemed interested in medicine." That just doesn't seem that strong to me.

I think you're going to wind up with good letters from someone who saw you actually DOING something--either your PI if you do research, whoever coordinates whatever clinical volunteer program you're doing, etc.
 
It could be that you offended him, or it could be that he never had any intention of writing a LOR for you and just wanted to give you the chance for some brief clinical experience and didn't really want to mentor you, or it could be that you're the first student he's allowed to shadow him and he didn't realize what a pain it would be to have a shadow and is now backing out of the whole thing, or it could be that he's sort of an ass.

If you only shadowed him for a couple of weeks or less then he probably just wasn't intending for this to be a long term + LOR type sitution, or that he quickly realized that he didn't want it to be because it was more of a time sink than he expected. You're doing the right things, just find another person to shadow.

If you'd been there for a few months then he should have realized that you were there fishing for a LOR, and either you did something that made him not want to write one or he's clueless/an ass. Evaluate what happened to see if there are any problems you can correct before finding a new doc.
 
It could be that you offended him, or it could be that he never had any intention of writing a LOR for you and just wanted to give you the chance for some brief clinical experience and didn't really want to mentor you, or it could be that you're the first student he's allowed to shadow him and he didn't realize what a pain it would be, or it could be that he's an ass.

If you only shadowed him for a couple of weeks or less then he probably just wasn't intending for this to be a long term + LOR type sitution, or that he quickly realized that he didn't want it to be because it was more of a time sink than he expected.

If you'd been there for a few months then he should have realized that you were there fishing for a LOR, and either you did something that made him not want to write one or he's clueless/an ass.

I didnt do anything to offend him, but he did tell me once what a pain it was to have to mentor residents when he first started. I've shadowed once a week every 4 three weeks.. i would have stayed longer but he told me to find somebody else..

I just don't know what to do anymore, I've shadowed at least 20 doctors each for a few days and to be honest none of them seemed like they wanted the burden of a student. The ones that were nice to me wer usually only that nice because their boss introduced them to me...
 
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i didnt do anything to offend him, but he did tell me once what a pain it was to have to mentor residents when he first started. I've shadowed once a week every 4 three weeks.. I would have stayed longer but he told me to find somebody else..

I just don't know what to do anymore, i've shadowed at least 20 doctors each for a few days and to be honest none of them seemed like they wanted the burden of a student. The ones that were nice to me wer usually only that nice because their boss introduced them to me...

20!?
 
I didnt do anything to offend him, but he did tell me once what a pain it was to have to mentor residents when he first started. I've shadowed once a week every 4 three weeks.. i would have stayed longer but he told me to find somebody else..

I just don't know what to do anymore, I've shadowed at least 20 doctors each for a few days and to be honest none of them seemed like they wanted the burden of a student. The ones that were nice to me wer usually only that nice because their boss introduced them to me...

You don't need that much shadowing. You don't need any more shadowing now. You don't need a LoR from a doctor.

How did you find 20 doctors to shadow?
 
My guess without knowing the details is that you are coming on too strong. Perhaps by suggesting long term shadowing and LOR's too quickly? I really don't know, but that is an unusually high number. Just remember, the point of shadowing is to get a good feel for the profession. The point of LOR's is to get someone who knows your character and dedication to write about such. If someone doesn't know you well they can't do that, and are actually doing you a favor by not writing one. Maybe, next time, take it slow and don't put too much pressure on the doc for commitments/LORs. Be there for the experience of the day and see where that leads. Good luck.
 
I just asked the doctor Im shadowing if I could shadow him next week and he said "go find some other doctor to be nice to you"
and so I was like, "can I get your email so maybe I can get a letter of recommendation?" and he was like "I'm not writing you a letter of recommendation but if you wana talk ...bla bla bla"

This came as a total shocker to me b/c he's always been nice to me, then out of nowhere hes a complete douche. I always looked up to doctors but thats definately not the case anymore..

anyway ... how does one go about getting a letter of recommendation, I thought I was doing what I needed to do to get one... 🙁

Dude, if he called you a girls name, I think I know who you were shadowing...

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The only problems I've come across from shadowing doctors is when I shadowed an Anesthesiologist...the dude seemed to be embarrassed about how boring his job was.
 
Unless you're applying for DO school, I don't see much point in getting a LOR from a doc. I mean, they aren't going to be able to say much about you, because they aren't seeing you do anything. Now, if you went and worked in a doc's office for some time, that doc could actually say something about you.

As an aside, it's possible he's just had a bad day. Doctors are humans too, you know.
 
Teach me your ways.

Haha.. I'm actually part of a shadowing program. They introduced me to a few doctors at first and then after a while I just started going up to random doctors and asking them if I could shadow them because I was a student. Most of the doctors agreed, I rarely had to persuade. But I shadowed a new doc each time because I was told some of them did not like students. If you read their body language, they are kind of hesitant at first so I knew it wasn't something they were dying to do.

Even though I don't think I'm getting a recommendation letter out of this, I learned alot and it changed the way I look at this profession.
 
I didnt do anything to offend him, but he did tell me once what a pain it was to have to mentor residents when he first started. I've shadowed once a week every 4 three weeks.. i would have stayed longer but he told me to find somebody else..

I just don't know what to do anymore, I've shadowed at least 20 doctors each for a few days and to be honest none of them seemed like they wanted the burden of a student. The ones that were nice to me wer usually only that nice because their boss introduced them to me...

Personally, I was surprised you even asked for a LOR once you got the initial response. Remember that the point of a LOR is to get a positive LOR from someone who knows you well, and if you've only met him a few times and that was indeed his reaction I don't think any LOR he would have written would have added to your application. (And frankly, letters from doctor you shadowed are generally weak letters anyway.)

Also, there's no need to shadow 20 doctors. There's probably no need to shadow 10 doctors. I think you'll get much more out of actual clinical volunteering, both personally and in terms of your application.

You're probably right, a long-term shadowing commitment *is* a burden...it is even when someone is a med student and has a growing understanding of what's going on, nevermind a premed prospective student. *Residents*, who are doctors themselves, slow down and add to the work of an attending physician, nevermind someone who is further down the totem pole, has less education, and therefore can't be independent. I'm an M4, and it's really only now that I feel like I add as much to clinic as I slow it down. 😉 Also keep in mind that this is voluntary, and those docs who really want to give the time are usually are also the same people volunteering to supervise residents and med students. I'm just saying this for a little perspective....yes, he and some of the other docs might have been jerks, but there's a chance you might have also been too demanding of their time. For some people, just asking a LOR from someone you've essentially just met and didn't do much with is in itself a fairly offensive thing. None of those things excuse the way this guy behaved, but I think you're losing the broader perspective of the process...these docs are letting you and likely several other premeds shadow as a favor and are likely giving up time (and sometimes even $$), so it's understandable that most can't make a huge time commitment.

But regardless, I'd stop shadowing and get involved with something with a more direct and long-term involvement.
 
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Personally, I was surprised you even asked for a LOR once you got the initial response. Remember that the point of a LOR is to get a positive LOR from someone who knows you well, and if you've only met him a few times and that was indeed his reaction I don't think any LOR he would have written would have added to your application. (And frankly, letters from doctor you shadowed are generally weak letters anyway.)

I don't know why I asked for the LOR, what he said to me didn't sink in until I left the hospital. But in the end I am glad he told me the truth because now I know that everyone isn't as nice as they pretend to be.
 
You don't NEED a letter from a doctor. If you've been with him/her only a few times, they're not going to be able to write a letter that HELPS your application.

ADCOMS are going to read it and be like oh, another one of those...
 
I don't know why I asked for the LOR, what he said to me didn't sink in until I left the hospital. But in the end I am glad he told me the truth because now I know that everyone isn't as nice as they pretend to be.

If he felt that having a shadow was getting in the way of his job, then there's nothing not nice about it, he would have been doing the right thing. There were some doctors I shadowed who seemed energized or at least not adversely affected by having me there, but there were a few who seemed genuinely burdened by it and I knew I shouldn't stay long, as they have more important things to do, i.e. take care of patients.
 
This came as a total shocker to me b/c he's always been nice to me, then out of nowhere hes a complete douche. I always looked up to doctors but thats definately not the case anymore..

This is the problem. Physicians by trait aren't intelligent, kind, caring, ect. they are all different. Some are class A-*****s who could give less of a sh%t about you and your interest in medicine and just want to go home and flip on some cable while others are intelligent, kind hearted people who want to nurture your enthusiasm by spending the extra effort talking to you or writing you a LOR. By looking up to "doctors" you are assuming that all of them posses the same traits like being smart or nice, when they are just like everyone else. So in short, yes..it's normal. I personally met a malignant attending who hated the world and made everyone know it, he was a douche (especially to the premed who wanted to know everything about his job. 😀)
 
If he felt that having a shadow was getting in the way of his job, then there's nothing not nice about it, he would have been doing the right thing. There were some doctors I shadowed who seemed energized or at least not adversely affected by having me there, but there were a few who seemed genuinely burdened by it and I knew I shouldn't stay long, as they have more important things to do, i.e. take care of patients.

Well his cold tone wasn't very nice.. and he was very quick to dismiss me after all the time I'd spent with him. You dont hurt someones feelings like that, its just ****ed up. And the thing is he didnt seem burdened until he said that to me, apparently he was hiding it because he was nice to me the whole time.. which makes me wonder how many other doctors were also hiding their agitation.. it doesnt matter anymore, you live and you learn
 
This is the problem. Physicians by trait aren't intelligent, kind, caring, ect. they are all different. Some are class A-*****s who could give less of a sh%t about you and your interest in medicine and just want to go home and flip on some cable while others are intelligent, kind hearted people who want to nurture your enthusiasm by spending the extra effort talking to you or writing you a LOR. By looking up to "doctors" you are assuming that all of them posses the same traits like being smart or nice, when they are just like everyone else. So in short, yes..it's normal. I personally met a malignant attending who hated the world and made everyone know it, he was a douche (especially to the premed who wanted to know everything about his job. 😀)

Thanks for the support, I totally agree with you. 🙂
 
Well his cold tone wasn't very nice.. and he was very quick to dismiss me after all the time I'd spent with him. You dont hurt someones feelings like that, its just ****ed up. And the thing is he didnt seem burdened until he said that to me, apparently he was hiding it because he was nice to me the whole time.. which makes me wonder how many other doctors were also hiding their agitation.. it doesnt matter anymore, you live and you learn

Yeah he probably could have done it in a more courteous way, even if there was nothing necessarily wrong with telling you not to shadow him anymore.
 
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