Is this true?

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PsychStudent

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I'm a clinical psych PhD student who's realizing that medicine is a much better match for her (either straight peds or child psych). I'm just about to start taking pre-med class concurrently w/ my PhD, and today randomly my adviser (who knows little of my disenchantment w/ the field) launched into this rant about how psychiatrists are seen as the absolute "bottom of the barrel" and the "armpit" of medicine, that other fields look down on them, that they're mostly foreign grads, most of their clientele except the most severe see GP's, and lastly that they never do any therapy and are just med managers.

It really had me kind of alarmed, honestly. It truly doesn't change my desire to go into the field, but may I ask whether this is really true? Do people look down on you and is psych completely non-prestigious? Do any of you do therapy in addition to med management? Do GP's refer their patients to you, or do they mostly do the med management themselves?
 
PsychStudent said:
I'm a clinical psych PhD student who's realizing that medicine is a much better match for her (either straight peds or child psych). I'm just about to start taking pre-med class concurrently w/ my PhD, and today randomly my adviser (who knows little of my disenchantment w/ the field) launched into this rant about how psychiatrists are seen as the absolute "bottom of the barrel" and the "armpit" of medicine, that other fields look down on them, that they're mostly foreign grads, most of their clientele except the most severe see GP's, and lastly that they never do any therapy and are just med managers.

It really had me kind of alarmed, honestly. It truly doesn't change my desire to go into the field, but may I ask whether this is really true? Do people look down on you and is psych completely non-prestigious? Do any of you do therapy in addition to med management? Do GP's refer their patients to you, or do they mostly do the med management themselves?


I had to take 5 after reading that. So let me ask you a question. According to that genius what is it about PhDs that have patients flocking to them?

And yes, many psychiatrists do therapy. Just read the forum for more info.
 
Yeah, I mean what she said didn't completely make sense to me either. Currently, many of my patients are people who either have pretty serious problems but don't want to take meds, or people who have less serious problems for which meds would be optional. So I guess what she's saying is that a lot of people who *want* meds, especially as the first line of action, are getting treated by their GPs. It's certainly not like psychiatrists have a lack of clientele though; aren't they actually in hot demand (or maybe that's just child psych)?

I guess what worried me the most was her assertion that psychiatrists are majorly looked down up by other medical professionals. Perhaps that's just the state of mental healthcare though, since psychiatrists are at the top of that hierarchy, certainly. 🙂
 
Hey there, psychStudent. I'm sorry you heard such a biased and uninformed opinion of psychiatry. Kind of took my breath away - such a surprise attack. Anyway, I can't speak for all schools, but some of the best and brightest at the ones I know go into psychiatry - usually, it's the students who enjoy really talking with their patients and making a difference emotionally (in addition to, or more so, than physically). I know several MD, PhD's in psychiatry - and this year's residency match had very few open spots - hardly "bottom of the barrel."

For what it's worth, most doc's expected me to go into peds, but were not surprised when I chose psych (likely adolescent psych). Everyone has their own strengths. And I think connecting with patients on an emotional level is something I enjoy, so I chose psychiatry - other people really enjoy cutting or triage, and choose other specialties. It sounds like your advisor might some unresolved issues with being a non-MD, to impart such vehement opinions on an advisee. Several psychiatry programs pride themselves on their therapy trainings - and choosing to do therapy in addition to meds is a common choice for many psychiatrists.

No one I know is looking down on me for going into psychiatry - but, I got my first choice in residency programs and excited beyond reason to be training at a program that also trains psychologists in various therapies. Personally, I really enjoy working with schizophrenics, and I do not know any GP's who manage these patients on their own (I'm sure they exist, but I just haven't encountered it). Best of luck to you!
 
I kept hearing crap like this constantly when I was in grad school too. I heard it so often that I became intrigued...."why are these people railing against psychiatry so much?"

I found out the truth. It's a much more stimulating, interesting, pays much better, and offer a much higher prestige level that that of their own professions.

i.e. jealousy.

As for the stuff about bottom of the medical heirarchy....that's stuff that premeds argue about late at night when they're studying for their MCATS. I've had countless physicians ask me if I have a private office because they have lots of patients they need to refer and are looking for some psychiatrist they like.

I look at other physicians and wonder how they get up for work each day....I don't devalue them, just realize that we each have our own interests.

As was mentioned above...lots of psychiatrists do therapy. As an MD/DO, you can do whatever you want. That's the beauty of the degree. You can do primarily psychopharmacology, psychiatric research, therapy, combination treatment, ect, and lots of other stuff.
 
This advisor must really disrespect family practice. According to the NRMP data tables, psych matched 95.8% (63.6% US grads). Family medicine only matched 82.4% (40.5% US grads).

Psych gets a bad rap in the media. People take TV and movies too seriously.
 
There is a lot of stigma about being a psychiatrist. It comes with the territory. Though it's not unique to psych (think pathology). Often, labeling/stereotyping seems to come mostly from the public and sometimes other MDs. I'm rather surprised a psychologist would have such a view. However, this might be a reflection of someone trying to keep you in their field. I had a good relationship with a internist at our teaching hospital while in med school who thought I would do well in IM. When I had decided on psychiatry, I heard a lot of the standard issue comments: "You'll be miserable" "You'll hate it" "Psychiatrists have the highest suicide rates among physicians" etc...

Bottom line, not everyone is going to respect what you do or think you are a wonderful person because of it. However, it is of great demand, you will help a lot of people, and get the opportunity to provide a great civic duty (working with the socioeconomic drift of the mentally ill, helping to remove the stigma of mental illness, etc.). It is very rewarding; but requires some acceptance of the stigma associated with it.

To date, I do not regret my decision. I have seen many friends from med school who matched in other specialties and are miserable. I have even heard "I should have done psychiatry." Though this balances out with the occasional "oh, you're a real doctor" from patients. There will be times when other physicians will have great respect for you and your treatment; and other times not.

I hope you're able to figure out what you want to do. Good luck...
 
i get the same rant from other docs (many of whom are still taking step 1.) i tell them amongs the top causes of death in the US, suicide and homicide are amongst them. i am sure addictions and perhaps obesity are a major cause of morbidity. (anorexia is another one as well.) i also ask them u can do as many triple bypasses and liver transplants on a depression case, but who ultimately prevents him from blowing his brains with a magnum or drinking his or her liver away. lung transplant or smoking cessation anyone? in this sense i feel a psychiatrist can save and improve lives more than perhaps a dermatologist. i heard a neurosurgery has a 25-33% cure rate. i wonder a psychiatrist's cure rate is. well in psychiatry i am sure u can have partial cures as well.

also look at C/L psychiatrists (psychosomatic docs.) i believe they know more internal medicine than a surgeon and perhaps more surgery than most non-surgeons. i visited one psychosomatic office and he only had med and surgery books. not many psych books.

with all the new developments i can see psychiatry gaining more respect in the future. especially with the neuroimaging and genetics research.

as for the pill-pusher vs the bs psychoanalyzer descriptions, they are wrong. i believe most psychiatrists are somewhere in the middle.


my other point is almost 1 in 20 docs are shrinks (is it ok to use that term 🙄 .) if all the shrinks were to go on strike 2mrw for a month, let's see what all the others would say.
 
Dear Psychstudent,

I'd be interested to know why you have become disenchanted with the field (I assume it's clinical psychology). If you wouldn't mind sharing, I'd be delighted to listen. Although, both psychologists and psychiatrists overlap quite a bit in theri professions, they each take different appraches to things. I'm always interested to know why someone would switch between the two.

Regards,

Psyclops
 
Psyclops said:
Dear Psychstudent,

I'd be interested to know why you have become disenchanted with the field (I assume it's clinical psychology). If you wouldn't mind sharing, I'd be delighted to listen. Although, both psychologists and psychiatrists overlap quite a bit in theri professions, they each take different appraches to things. I'm always interested to know why someone would switch between the two.

Regards,

Psyclops

Notice how the psychologists always feel they need to but into our discussions.
 
Solideliquid said:
Notice how the psychologists always feel they need to but into our discussions.

They're our colleagues!
 
couple of things came to mind in hearing your question...

First of all, I'm slightly suspicious that you might be flaming here just to get a rise out of psychiatrists, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt.

Some thoughts:

You are not going to get an unbiased answer on how everyone in medicine views psychiatry by asking in the psychiatry forum. You are going to get psychiatrists who are defensive and obviously pro-psychiatry. Might want to consider asking the same question to the general residency forum.

It still is true that in general, psychiatry is one of the least competitive fields to match into. This is very different than what the competition is like to match into the higher tier programs in psychiatry. It is extremely difficult, for example to be selected as one of the 10 people to train at Columbia every year. There are people who were accepted at Harvard for Medicine who were rejected for psychiatry at NYU (who applied to both), so don't think that any old schmuck gets to be working at the good psychiatry residencies. (please excuse the name-dropping) And for that matter, many very smart and interesting people go into community psych programs just because they value the population seen at that program, or the culture, or the city, or whatever. But if we generalize, yes, it is pretty easy to get a spot somewhere in psychiatry which cannot be said for some of the more competitive fields in medicine.

Thus the students that are matching into psychiatry are a mixed bag and there certainly are those that are not compatible with other fields for personality or other eclectic reasons. Those people are often outcasts in medicine and contribute to a conception that psychiatry is the bottom of the barrel. Over the past number of years, however, psychiatry has become much more competitive because there are numerous effective and interesting treatment options, mental illness is less stigmatized, the lifestyle of the field is highly valued, the research is amazingly interesting (and thought of as the final frontier of medicine), and the field is becoming better understood.

Thus, you get the feeling that the thing that will continue to legitamize the field is when more and more medical grads see their bright and interesting and very academically competent colleagues choose psychiatry. This will breed a generation of doctors who all value psychiatry as opposed to it being such a mixed bag. But lets not dismiss the reality that depending on what doctor your psychology teacher talked to, she may very well have been told this. The fact that she felt compelled to regurgitate that information, even when it has no bearing on her life probably says something about her own issues accepting psychiatry.

The legitimacy of the field among other clinicians is very apparent to me, and anyone who works in a hospital knows the enormous value other doctors put on "psych consults", because they seem to dominate the clinical picture of many medically complicated patients that just can't be helped until their psychiatrically stabilized. Even doctors who have contempt for psychiatry (and they do exist) will be desperate for your help in the hospital and totally appreciative of it when you help them. In addition, I do think that psychiatry is almost universally thought of as an intellectual field, where psychiatrists are thought of as well-versed in areas of philosophy, ethics, sociology, Freud, Woody Allen movies, etc (even when we are not).

Medicine is a field of stereotyping, and all the type A gunners in it are impressed by name value, prestige, and being viewed as a success by others. Thus, there is the stereotype that some fields are hard to get into, thus anybody who gets into them gets the benefit of the doubt of being highly regarded academically (like derm or plastics), while other folks who choose "easier" fields, may be generalized as not high achievers.

A layperson might be surprised to hear that there are large contingents of doctors who stereotype surgeons and consider them some of the worst doctors and the least respected and intelligent people in medicine. This is clearly ridiculous to generalize this way, but you could make anecdotal arguments that there are a lot of times when surgeons don't know how to take care of patients. There are other folks who look down upon ER docs, calling them "glorified triage nurses" who don't think and only use algorhythms. So its easy, if you are of that constitution to get caught up in that game. And the reality is that many of us who choose psychiatry at some point have to confront some issues from family/colleagues/professors who have their own preconcieved notion of who goes into psychiatry. It is not an insignificant point in choosing ones career.

I think in clinical psych, you probably deal with that type of issue less, because you all signed up from day one to treat the mentally ill. But in medicine, less than 10 percent sign up to do that, and a fair amount want nothing to do with the mentally ill. Thus, I could have been a radiologist or heart surgeon or whatever I wanted, and I looked everybody in the eye and told them that I WANTED to work with the mentally ill for my whole life.

Many of them look at you back and think, "but you could sit in an office for 8 hours a day looking at films and never take call and make $500,000 per year. What would compell you to make $150,000 per year, be around patients who rely on you so heavily emotionally, have to confront your own psychological profile (which is horrifying for many doctors), and have to learn all these extra psychological treatment modalities and concepts that we don't get taught in med school?"

Actually, don't be surprised if you go to med school and the allure of making $500,000 per year doesn't make you consider being an ENT surgeon or something other than psych or peds.

The key is, "who cares" what others think. If you love psychiatry, you love psychiatry. I don't blame you, I love it and feel so gratified every day at work. Any doubt I had when I started residency is completely gone. It is such a stimulating and growing field and feels so great to know medicine and psychology, to learn neuroscience, pharmacology and talk therapy, and to really see patients get better under my care. If you love what you do and are good at it, you'll find your niche. Don't let naysayers in psychology or in medicine stop you. Rest assured that the field is not going anywhere, jobs are and will continue to be in demand (and if you are good, it doesn't matter if jobs are in demand, you will be in demand). Good luck with your decision.

That was incredibly long winded and if you got through it, congratulations and I hope it helps.

Best,
Worriedwell
 
Thanks for all your responses thus far! One thing I should mention about my clinical psych program is that it's very, very research oriented and most professors look down on clinicians in general. . . so ignoring the veracity of her claims, I think she'd say similarly derogatory things about pretty much any type of mental health clinician (i.e. they have miserable jobs, not nec. that they aren't competent). Some of you were interested in my disenchantment with psychology, so let me talk about that:

It is not so much that I dislike psych (actually, I really like a lot of it!), but rather the realization that it's not fitting my career and academic needs.

My #1 issue is that I have no background in biology (none!) and my program basically teaches me nothing in this area. I complained about this and asked to take an undergrad bio course but was told that it would take too much time away from my research and instead to do a biologically-oriented postdoc if I really cared that much (ugh). There is no way that I'd be competitive for something like this w/o the background, and postdocs are not breadth oriented so this would not be too helpful.

My #2 reason is that I'm basically 50% research oriented and 50% clinically-oriented (leaning slightly more toward the clinical side), and I honestly don't think I'm treating the "whole patient" by knowing no bio and not being able to prescribe meds. I'm also interested in very severe patients (i.e. those who are too depressed to get out of bed, people w/ OCD who spend 8 hours a day ritualizing, etc), and one really needs to have both a therapy AND medication arsenal to do this. My predominant interest is children, and if I have to see another case of "Johnny won't do his homework and gets into fights at school" (i.e. the child doesn't really have any psychological problems outside of the parent not dealing w/ normal kids things appropriately) I'm going to scream!

My #3 reason is that I'm very interested in doing translational research, but except for treatment studies (which take 10 years from start to finish!) I don't see too much of that going on w/o a strong bio bent. I love research, but what's available at my school is very etiologically-based and won't have any real applications for at least 50 years.

My #4 reason is that as I get older I'm starting to be very interested by medicine in general, and it is also very appealing to me to do straight peds or another specialty and just have a much-better-than-average handle on the psychological problems of my patients. My fiance is an MD/PhD student, and I spent an entire day reading his Ob/Gyn book from cover-to-cover recently because I thought it was so fascinating. I also read all of his JAMAs just for fun, even though I don't understand a lot of the stuff. Obviously this path would not afford me the ability to do much psychological research though.

My #5 reason is that none of the traditional psych jobs interest me since I really dislike teaching undergrads in a classroom context (can you say five emails a day about "how can I raise my grade?"). I also really like research *and* clinical work, and it's very hard to find good jobs like that in psychology. They are incredibly competitive, and you basically have to be willing to move anywhere in the country to secure one, even if you're a stellar applicant. I like supervising students in a research context though, and being an attending and teaching residents/med students in a hands-on context really appeals to me.

Some of you probably believe that I'm an idiot for not dropping out at the end of my first year of grad school, around the time when I started to realize that I was not a good match for clinical psychology. I have decided not to do this because a) I'm getting an incredible education in research methodology here, b) I worked my ass off in undergrad to get into a very highly regarded program, c) I will only be 26 when I'm done w/ my PhD and internship, so although I feel time pressure it isn't horrible, d) I'm totally okay with being poor and working hard for a long, long while, and e) a part of me is glad that I'll have a fall-back career (psychology) if it turns out that medicine is also not a good match for me. I haven't taken any pre-med classes yet (eek!), although I somehow convinced my advisor to let me take chemistry next year since I finished all of my required classes early. No one knows anything about my med school aspirations except for my fiance and this board, heh.
 
PsychStudent said:
Thanks for all your responses thus far! One thing I should mention about my clinical psych program is that it's very, very research oriented and most professors look down on clinicians in general. . . so ignoring the veracity of her claims, I think she'd say similarly derogatory things about pretty much any type of mental health clinician (i.e. they have miserable jobs, not nec. that they aren't competent). Some of you were interested in my disenchantment with psychology, so let me talk about that:

It is not so much that I dislike psych (actually, I really like a lot of it!), but rather the realization that it's not fitting my career and academic needs.

My #1 issue is that I have no background in biology (none!) and my program basically teaches me nothing in this area. I complained about this and asked to take an undergrad bio course but was told that it would take too much time away from my research and instead to do a biologically-oriented postdoc if I really cared that much (ugh). There is no way that I'd be competitive for something like this w/o the background, and postdocs are not breadth oriented so this would not be too helpful.

My #2 reason is that I'm basically 50% research oriented and 50% clinically-oriented (leaning slightly more toward the clinical side), and I honestly don't think I'm treating the "whole patient" by knowing no bio and not being able to prescribe meds. I'm also interested in very severe patients (i.e. those who are too depressed to get out of bed, people w/ OCD who spend 8 hours a day ritualizing, etc), and one really needs to have both a therapy AND medication arsenal to do this. My predominant interest is children, and if I have to see another case of "Johnny won't do his homework and gets into fights at school" (i.e. the child doesn't really have any psychological problems outside of the parent not dealing w/ normal kids things appropriately) I'm going to scream!

My #3 reason is that I'm very interested in doing translational research, but except for treatment studies (which take 10 years from start to finish!) I don't see too much of that going on w/o a strong bio bent. I love research, but what's available at my school is very etiologically-based and won't have any real applications for at least 50 years.

My #4 reason is that as I get older I'm starting to be very interested by medicine in general, and it is also very appealing to me to do straight peds or another specialty and just have a much-better-than-average handle on the psychological problems of my patients. My fiance is an MD/PhD student, and I spent an entire day reading his Ob/Gyn book from cover-to-cover recently because I thought it was so fascinating. I also read all of his JAMAs just for fun, even though I don't understand a lot of the stuff. Obviously this path would not afford me the ability to do much psychological research though.

My #5 reason is that none of the traditional psych job interest me since I really dislike teaching undergrads in a classroom context (can you say five emails a day about "how can I raise my grade?). I also really like research *and* clinical work, and it's very hard to find good jobs like that in psychology. They are incredibly competitive, and you basically have to be willing to move anywhere in the country to secure one, even if you're a stellar applicant. I like supervising students in a research context though, and being an attending and teaching residents/med students in a hands-on context really appeals to me.

Some of you probably believe that I'm an idiot for not dropping out at the end of my first year of grad school, around the time when I started to realize that I was not a good match for clinical psychology. I have decided not to do this because a) I'm getting an incredible education in research methodology here, b) I worked my ass off in undergrad to get into a very highly regarded program, c) I will only be 26 when I'm done w/ my PhD and internship, so although I feel time pressure it isn't horrible, d) I'm totally okay with being poor and working hard for a long, long while, and e) a part of me is glad that I'll have a fall-back career (psychology) if it turns out that medicine is also not a good match for me. I haven't taken any pre-med classes yet (eek!), although I somehow convinced my advisor to let me take chemistry next year since I finished all of my required classes early. No one knows anything about my med school aspirations except for my fiance and this board, heh.

What are your thoughts on psychologist RxP? You could always complete the PhD, do a post-doc in clinical psychopharmacology, and then move to one of the states where psychologists could prescribe. Of course, you'll have to decide if you want to do research, clinical work, or some combination of both. Psychologists with prescriptive authority also tend to treat more mild to moderate psychopathology, so this may not be what you want. I am not aware of any medical/prescribing psychologists in NM or LA who have hospital privileges to prescribe. However, this may be happening in LA.

Osteopathic medical school sounds like another option for you.
 
I'm actually really against RxP because I just think that there's no way we'll get enough medical knowledge in 2 years of training. I'm also not thrilled with the idea of GPs without a lot of psych experience prescribing psych meds either, but I suppose that for straightforward cases it's fine. Additionally, I also want to feel like I can handle anything, not just depression and anxiety (which is all that I'd be able to treat w/ RxP).
 
PsychStudent said:
I'm actually really against RxP because I just think that there's no way we'll get enough medical knowledge in 2 years of training. I'm also not thrilled with the idea of GPs without a lot of psych experience prescribing psych meds either, but I suppose that for straightforward cases it's fine. Additionally, I also want to feel like I can handle anything, not just depression and anxiety (which is all that I'd be able to treat w/ RxP).

No shortcuts then. Go to medical school.
 
PublicHealth said:
What are your thoughts on psychologist RxP? You could always complete the PhD, do a post-doc in clinical psychopharmacology, and then move to one of the states where psychologists could prescribe. Of course, you'll have to decide if you want to do research, clinical work, or some combination of both. Psychologists with prescriptive authority also tend to treat more mild to moderate psychopathology, so this may not be what you want. I am not aware of any medical/prescribing psychologists in NM or LA who have hospital privileges to prescribe. However, this may be happening in LA.

Osteopathic medical school sounds like another option for you.

Osteopathic medical school? Where did you get that as an idea for her? I am just curious?
 
PublicHealth said:
What are your thoughts on psychologist RxP? You could always complete the PhD, do a post-doc in clinical psychopharmacology, and then move to one of the states where psychologists could prescribe. Of course, you'll have to decide if you want to do research, clinical work, or some combination of both. Psychologists with prescriptive authority also tend to treat more mild to moderate psychopathology, so this may not be what you want. I am not aware of any medical/prescribing psychologists in NM or LA who have hospital privileges to prescribe. However, this may be happening in LA.

Osteopathic medical school sounds like another option for you.

POST DELETED

I am so sick of the RxP. You want it? Fine do what you need to and get prescribing. Don't forget to take responsibilty when you Fup a patient due to lack of residency training.

And this thread had NOTHING to do with RxP, please restrict discussion of that to the appropriate threads (ie, NOT every psychiatry thread that comes up).
 
Psychstudent, you say you'll be 26yrs old when you are finished w/your PhD including internship? Also, you say that you have no problem not making good money for a long long while? Plus you have a considerable interest in medicine? Your golden!!! You could easily start pre-med when your finished and go to med school. Heck, I will be 30yrs when I start med school. Your young enough to take advantage of your interests and see the best of both worlds. I appreciate your interest and openness in both fields. It would be quite interesting to hear thoughts of someone who has a PhD in psych and an MD in psych. I still, regardless of all of the chatter here on this forum, don't see the big dam debate between the two. They all will always work together at one point or another and they all are cheering for the same team! I think the whole entire conflict and eternal battle between the "psychs" is irrelevant and unnecessary!!!! It is sad that the mental health is stigmatized as it is, as it very sad that the professionals treating the mental health are stigmatized! However, what is truly sad, is the fact that the professionals treating the mental health insist on bringing others in their own line of profession down for no good reason! Every professional in the mental health field is very important and there is no one "type" better than the other! Every single one, regardless if your a social worker, psychologist, or psychiatrist, is beneficial and important to the patient. It doesn't matter how much money you make, what you studied in school, or how long you went to school for! What matters is the patients that all of us will be treating and the ones that make our careers possible! Somehow, throughout all of the slamming and ego boosting, we choose to forget the reasons we are here and what our main purpose is, and that would be the patient! Who gives a crap what you are or who you are, there are different job descriptions for each "title" and if you are unhappy with your job description than go back to school and do something else! We have enough stigma and criticism from our peers and society, we surely don't need to criticize people in our own field that have the same interests and same intentions. Get over it already!

I'm not speaking to anyone in particular, just venting from someone that sees the importance and relevance of all fields in the mental health profession, and frankly, a little embarrassed that there is so much turmoil within the mental health professionals. Hopefully I never fall victim to such nonsense!
 
PsychStudent said:
Thanks for all your responses thus far! One thing I should mention about my clinical psych program is that it's very, very research oriented and most professors look down on clinicians in general. . . so ignoring the veracity of her claims, I think she'd say similarly derogatory things about pretty much any type of mental health clinician (i.e. they have miserable jobs, not nec. that they aren't competent). Some of you were interested in my disenchantment with psychology, so let me talk about that:

It is not so much that I dislike psych (actually, I really like a lot of it!), but rather the realization that it's not fitting my career and academic needs.

My #1 issue is that I have no background in biology (none!) and my program basically teaches me nothing in this area. I complained about this and asked to take an undergrad bio course but was told that it would take too much time away from my research and instead to do a biologically-oriented postdoc if I really cared that much (ugh). There is no way that I'd be competitive for something like this w/o the background, and postdocs are not breadth oriented so this would not be too helpful.

My #2 reason is that I'm basically 50% research oriented and 50% clinically-oriented (leaning slightly more toward the clinical side), and I honestly don't think I'm treating the "whole patient" by knowing no bio and not being able to prescribe meds. I'm also interested in very severe patients (i.e. those who are too depressed to get out of bed, people w/ OCD who spend 8 hours a day ritualizing, etc), and one really needs to have both a therapy AND medication arsenal to do this. My predominant interest is children, and if I have to see another case of "Johnny won't do his homework and gets into fights at school" (i.e. the child doesn't really have any psychological problems outside of the parent not dealing w/ normal kids things appropriately) I'm going to scream!

My #3 reason is that I'm very interested in doing translational research, but except for treatment studies (which take 10 years from start to finish!) I don't see too much of that going on w/o a strong bio bent. I love research, but what's available at my school is very etiologically-based and won't have any real applications for at least 50 years.

My #4 reason is that as I get older I'm starting to be very interested by medicine in general, and it is also very appealing to me to do straight peds or another specialty and just have a much-better-than-average handle on the psychological problems of my patients. My fiance is an MD/PhD student, and I spent an entire day reading his Ob/Gyn book from cover-to-cover recently because I thought it was so fascinating. I also read all of his JAMAs just for fun, even though I don't understand a lot of the stuff. Obviously this path would not afford me the ability to do much psychological research though.

My #5 reason is that none of the traditional psych jobs interest me since I really dislike teaching undergrads in a classroom context (can you say five emails a day about "how can I raise my grade?"). I also really like research *and* clinical work, and it's very hard to find good jobs like that in psychology. They are incredibly competitive, and you basically have to be willing to move anywhere in the country to secure one, even if you're a stellar applicant. I like supervising students in a research context though, and being an attending and teaching residents/med students in a hands-on context really appeals to me.

Some of you probably believe that I'm an idiot for not dropping out at the end of my first year of grad school, around the time when I started to realize that I was not a good match for clinical psychology. I have decided not to do this because a) I'm getting an incredible education in research methodology here, b) I worked my ass off in undergrad to get into a very highly regarded program, c) I will only be 26 when I'm done w/ my PhD and internship, so although I feel time pressure it isn't horrible, d) I'm totally okay with being poor and working hard for a long, long while, and e) a part of me is glad that I'll have a fall-back career (psychology) if it turns out that medicine is also not a good match for me. I haven't taken any pre-med classes yet (eek!), although I somehow convinced my advisor to let me take chemistry next year since I finished all of my required classes early. No one knows anything about my med school aspirations except for my fiance and this board, heh.


Psychiatry aside, it sounds like you have a good interest in medicine. The reason I say psychiatry aside, in 3rd and 4th years of med school you can "sample" the major fields and decide for youself what fits you best.

You may surprise yourself and choose a field like surgery or OB. Once you see what's out there you may change your mind. Ask your fiancee if you can tag along for a few days (depending on where he is in his medical education).
If your fiancee is doing third or fourth year it will be extremely beneficial to you. Have you spoken with your fiancee about your thoughts?
 
My fiance is a 3rd year grad student, so he'll have one more year of his PhD program and then he'll be back to med school (3rd year). Do you really think I could tag along then? We attend the same school so it would be pretty convenient. He has offered to hook me up with some professors he knows, so I'm thinking about doing some physician shadowing this summer.

He's quite supportive of me, although he feels like I'm idealizing medicine too much. I just know that I'm at my happiest when I'm working with pretty severe patients, although they can be quite trying at times!
 
PsychStudent said:
My fiance is a 3rd year grad student, so he'll have one more year of his PhD program and then he'll be back to med school (3rd year). Do you really think I could tag along then? We attend the same school so it would be pretty convenient. He has offered to hook me up with some professors he knows, so I'm thinking about doing some physician shadowing this summer.

He's quite supportive of me, although he feels like I'm idealizing medicine too much. I just know that I'm at my happiest when I'm working with pretty severe patients, although they can be quite trying at times!


Shadowing a physician over the summer would be a good place to start. And again, tagging along with your fiancee during rotations (say a few hours a day) should be OK as long as you don't touch any of the patients, as that is a malpractice insurance concern.
 
Solideliquid said:
POST DELETED

I am so sick of the RxP. You want it? Fine do what you need to and get prescribing. Don't forget to take responsibilty when you Fup a patient due to lack of residency training.

And this thread had NOTHING to do with RxP, please restrict discussion of that to the appropriate threads (ie, NOT every psychiatry thread that comes up).

For the record, I'm a second-year medical student who supports psychologist RxP. Medical psychologists in Louisiana have written more than 10,000 prescriptions and have not "Fup a patient due to lack of residency training." Patients there are responding very well to integrated psychopharmacologic and psychotherapeutic care.

Psychologist RxP will likely become a reality in some, if not many US states. Psychiatry is simply not providing the numbers to satisfy the need.
 
PublicHealth said:
For the record, I'm a second-year medical student who supports psychologist RxP. Medical psychologists in Louisiana have written more than 10,000 prescriptions and have not "Fup a patient due to lack of residency training." Patients there are responding very well to integrated psychopharmacologic and psychotherapeutic care.

Psychologist RxP will likely become a reality in some, if not many US states. Psychiatry is simply not providing the numbers to satisfy the need.


I didn't mean you, I knew you are a med student. How are your studies going, BTW?
 
wow, this is such an interesting thread.

i think that something to consider is that people are generally poor at predicting how happy they'll be with a situation in the future. if you take a group of peope who become paraplegic after a car accident and a group of people who've won a bunch in the lottery, and compare the 2 groups, after one year there's no significant difference in their satisfaction with life. or among assistant professors who are denied tenure, for the first day or two afterward they're devastated and think they're careers will be ruined forever, but actually recover quite well within weeks.

this is not to be a nihilist and say that people can't make decisions that will increase their happiness and satisfaction with life. however, you need to be sure you're properly weighing the benefits of doing medical school (some of which are uncertain, and probably minimal given the fact you'll have a PhD) versus the costs (which are substantial). After you're done with your PhD, you'll need to do 1-2 years of post bacc and study for the MCAT, 4 years of medical school, then 3-4 years of residency (and honestly, if you love research that much, tack on another 2 years of fellowship). So up to 12 more years of training. You say that it's hard now to get a job that exactly fits what you want, but if you take the medicine path, you've got to compete for a spot in med school, then residency, then fellowship, and by then you're back to square one, where you would have been anyway had you just stopped with a PhD at the age of 26. If you want to have children, you'll either have to squeeze that in somewhere during your 12 years of training, or wait til you're done, by which time you'll be well into the high-risk age range. It does sound like you are idealizing medicine a bit, as your fiance said. That's okay, most of us do. But realize that most of us go to medical school with a BA/BS and no other skills. You'll have a PhD. Don't forget the fact that society and government, and whoever else funds your graduate work and research, have already invested a ton into your education and you'll basically be chucking it all. And then probably adding a ton of loans on top (unless you're wealthy). And sure you'll make more as an MD, but not that much more if you're doing psych or peds.

Also, I don't understand why you say that you're happiest working with severely ill patients, and yet you want to do general pediatrics? I think you may need to spend some more time reflecting on what it is you actually want.
I apologize if this sounds critical. I just want you to be sure you are totally aware of all of the costs of doing medicine, and aren't minimizing them just because you had fun reading an Ob-Gyn textbook the other day. Most people in the world would probably find medicine interesting on some level. The question is whether you still find it interesting after being on your feet for 30 hours every 4 days, while dealing with personalities ranging from difficult, to passive-aggressive, to malignant -- I'm not talking about the patients, I'm talking about the people who have authority over you, your daily life, and your evaluations. 🙂
 
Solideliquid said:
I didn't mean you, I knew you are a med student. How are your studies going, BTW?

Great, overwhelming, too much to know, too little time, step 1 looming... 😱
 
Banannie, thanks for your thoughtful post! I totally agree that I wouldn't be unhappy in psych, but I just don't think I'd be as fulfilled. Plus, if I wanted to get a lot more experience in bio I'd probably have to get a master's and then a 2-3 year postdoc anyway. I definitely want to have children, and I'd probably have them during my psychology internship year and pre-bacc curriculum so I could spend more time with them when they are very young.

As for the time committment, it really doesn't scare me at all except with the kid thing. I'm not a partier, and my favorite thing in the world is learning new things and being immersed in an culture of really smart people. Medicine might not be as social as some other careers, but I want to work in a hospital setting and I think that's pretty collaborative. This may sound way too ambitious, but I'm really hoping to go to Yale for med school since it would probably be a little less nuts having a family in a situation where there are no exams. I went there for undergrad, but I don't know if that will make it easier or harder for me to get in.

About the money thing--this may sound very 1950s--but I think I'm okay in that area because by the time I'm in medical school my fiance will be making a good living as a dr. Right now he wants to go into anesthesiology or rads, which is totally w/in his reach with his PhD and Step 1s. Neither of us will have any debt from grad school which is nice. Even if I didn't have that "cushion," I'd still want to go to med school.

Right now I just need to see how taking chem while doing my PhD works for me next year. If I really suck at it, perhaps my choice will me made. 🙂

By the way, sorry for the vitriol in my first posting; I basically don't agree w/ what my advisor said, but it really upset me nonetheless because I generally respect her a lot.
 
PsychStudent said:
Banannie, thanks for your thoughtful post! I totally agree that I wouldn't be unhappy in psych, but I just don't think I'd be as fulfilled. Plus, if I wanted to get a lot more experience in bio I'd probably have to get a master's and then a 2-3 year postdoc anyway. I definitely want to have children, and I'd probably have them during my psychology internship year and pre-bacc curriculum so I could spend more time with them when they are very young.

As for the time committment, it really doesn't scare me at all except with the kid thing. I'm not a partier, and my favorite thing in the world is learning new things and being immersed in an culture of really smart people. Medicine might not be as social as some other careers, but I want to work in a hospital setting and I think that's pretty collaborative. This may sound way too ambitious, but I'm really hoping to go to Yale for med school since it would probably be a little less nuts having a family in a situation where there are no exams. I went there for undergrad, but I don't know if that will make it easier or harder for me to get in.

About the money thing--this may sound very 1950s--but I think I'm okay in that area because by the time I'm in medical school my fiance will be making a good living as a dr. Right now he wants to go into anesthesiology or rads, which is totally w/in his reach with his PhD and Step 1s. Neither of us will have any debt from grad school which is nice. Even if I didn't have that "cushion," I'd still want to go to med school.

Right now I just need to see how taking chem while doing my PhD works for me next year. If I really suck at it, perhaps my choice will me made. 🙂

By the way, sorry for the vitriol in my first posting; I basically don't agree w/ what my advisor said, but it really upset me nonetheless because I generally respect her a lot.


Wow Yale...you seem aiming quite high. I just hope you are not setting yourself up for the long fall.

Good luck and let us know what you decide.
 
Originally Posted by PsychStudent
Thanks for all your responses thus far! One thing I should mention about my clinical psych program is that it's very, very research oriented and most professors look down on clinicians in general. . . so ignoring the veracity of her claims, I think she'd say similarly derogatory things about pretty much any type of mental health clinician (i.e. they have miserable jobs, not nec. that they aren't competent). Some of you were interested in my disenchantment with psychology, so let me talk about that:



This is exactly what I encountered as a research student with PhD's and everyone wonders why I am the way I am about psychologists? pffftt

I experienced this mentality too Psychstudent and it was atrocious- it had me so enveloped for a good year I almost quit med school, then I remembered, oh yah, I'm in THEIR territory and they're just jealous 🙄 So I left, ditched the paper and moved on. I couldn't be happier. I'm sure if you have a true interest in the medical part of psychiatry you'll love your decision.

Either way good luck!

Solid, are you in GA yet?
 
Poety, I think it's because they see clinicians as non-intellectuals. Sure, many don't read ancient philosophy on a daily basis, but case conceptualizations can be extraordinarily mentally taxing and require a great deal of insight and intelligence.

I'm also afraid that a few (or maybe many) bad therapists--like those doing psychoanalysis or supportive listening for panic disorder--may have tainted their views.
 
PsychStudent said:
Banannie, thanks for your thoughtful post! I totally agree that I wouldn't be unhappy in psych, but I just don't think I'd be as fulfilled. Plus, if I wanted to get a lot more experience in bio I'd probably have to get a master's and then a 2-3 year postdoc anyway. I definitely want to have children, and I'd probably have them during my psychology internship year and pre-bacc curriculum so I could spend more time with them when they are very young.

As for the time committment, it really doesn't scare me at all except with the kid thing. I'm not a partier, and my favorite thing in the world is learning new things and being immersed in an culture of really smart people. Medicine might not be as social as some other careers, but I want to work in a hospital setting and I think that's pretty collaborative. This may sound way too ambitious, but I'm really hoping to go to Yale for med school since it would probably be a little less nuts having a family in a situation where there are no exams. I went there for undergrad, but I don't know if that will make it easier or harder for me to get in.

About the money thing--this may sound very 1950s--but I think I'm okay in that area because by the time I'm in medical school my fiance will be making a good living as a dr. Right now he wants to go into anesthesiology or rads, which is totally w/in his reach with his PhD and Step 1s. Neither of us will have any debt from grad school which is nice. Even if I didn't have that "cushion," I'd still want to go to med school.

Right now I just need to see how taking chem while doing my PhD works for me next year. If I really suck at it, perhaps my choice will me made. 🙂

By the way, sorry for the vitriol in my first posting; I basically don't agree w/ what my advisor said, but it really upset me nonetheless because I generally respect her a lot.

i'm glad you thought my post was helpful. apologies if i came off super-negative. i have to admit i sometimes wish i'd known about clinical psych before i went to medical school. it turns out i like psychiatry much better than most other fields of medicine, and most of the research i'm interested in is done by psychologists not MDs. and it would be so nice to not have these massive loans, yet still be able to have a career that is similar. so basically, do you even know how good you've got it???? 😉

i think that being a yale grad and having a PhD, you'd have a good shot at getting into yale. although, the med school appication process really is a crapshoot (as I'm sure you've heard before). i didn't even get a courtesy interview at my home institution's med school, so one never knows.

i'd say, given your desire to have a family in medical school, don't come to duke. but then again, the advantage of going to duke with a PhD is that you can do medical school in 3 years. 😀

keep in mind, you don't just want the most fulfilling career you can have. you want the most fulfilling life you can have . . . and career is only one part of that. good luck!
 
Banannie, it's funny that we have such rosy view of each other's professions! Just think, you can work in an academic medical center collaborating with psychologists, but you will make 2x as much as they will and have more power over the direction of the research because your field is considered to be a lot more prestigious. Your loans will eventually get paid off, and really the only thing you will be missing is some research methods and statistics training, which is not super difficult to learn. Of course you can always hire consultants to do that stuff too!

PhD and MD training basically take the same amount of time anyway, since most PhDs are 6 years with internship, 2 additional years to get licensed if you want to do therapy, and another 2-3 yrs post-doc added to that if you want to do research.
 
Poety said:
Originally Posted by PsychStudent
Thanks for all your responses thus far! One thing I should mention about my clinical psych program is that it's very, very research oriented and most professors look down on clinicians in general. . . so ignoring the veracity of her claims, I think she'd say similarly derogatory things about pretty much any type of mental health clinician (i.e. they have miserable jobs, not nec. that they aren't competent). Some of you were interested in my disenchantment with psychology, so let me talk about that:



This is exactly what I encountered as a research student with PhD's and everyone wonders why I am the way I am about psychologists? pffftt

I experienced this mentality too Psychstudent and it was atrocious- it had me so enveloped for a good year I almost quit med school, then I remembered, oh yah, I'm in THEIR territory and they're just jealous 🙄 So I left, ditched the paper and moved on. I couldn't be happier. I'm sure if you have a true interest in the medical part of psychiatry you'll love your decision.

Either way good luck!

Solid, are you in GA yet?

Hey! Not yet, living it up on the west side before I have to move to the south side. We are cutting it close (fashionably late, as they say) with a June 15-20th move.
 
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