Is vying for derm worth it if I don’t have any nepotistic connections?

[sargon2123]

Rising M1 here. I know it’s super early but I want to at least make derm a possibility in the future, so I’m looking into it. I’ve heard that nepotism accounts for a lot of the derm match. How much? If I don’t have any nepotistic connection to derm specifically, should I vie for another competitive field instead? I will say my home program is strong for derm, and is where I’d probably want to end up.

Could I create my own nepotism by networking over the next few years?

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[Goro]

Could I create my own nepotism by networking over the next few years?

That's what you're supposed to do!

 

[sargon2123]

That's what you're supposed to do!

Wouldn’t acquaintanceship pale in comparison to the blood relations (parents, uncles, aunts, etc) that I keep hearing about being associated with the derm match?

 

[Dro133]

Wouldn’t acquaintanceship pale in comparison to the blood relations (parents, uncles, aunts, etc) that I keep hearing about being associated with the derm match?

I mean it'll help, but people match into derm without having blood relatives in the field vouching for them. If derm is what you really want, control what you can control; get good board scores, do well on your rotations, do research, and network.

 

[Dr. Doctor MD]

Rising M1 here. I know it’s super early but I want to at least make derm a possibility in the future, so I’m looking into it. I’ve heard that nepotism accounts for a lot of the derm match. How much? If I don’t have any nepotistic connection to derm specifically, should I vie for another competitive field instead? I will say my home program is strong for derm, and is where I’d probably want to end up.

Could I create my own nepotism by networking over the next few years?

You are right that there is a high amount of nepotism, both literally (parent/relative on faculty) and figuratively (otherwise poor candidate with strong connections). While these are certainly prevalent and an issue, probably around 80% of people are getting in the "old fashioned" traditional way via hard work (250+, AOA, Research/Pubs, Honors).

If you do all that then you probably have a 90%+ chance of matching dermatology which is about as good as the odds get. It sucks that nepotism plays such a large role in residency selection, but remember that the vast majority of spots are going to people who worked hard and earned them, despite whatever blatant nepotism you may see.

tldr: Work hard from day one and you'll be fine

 

[sargon2123]

Yeah. Life's not fair, nbd. I'm happy for the program I got accepted to and what I have so far (inb4 this becomes another rant thread). Does anyone have hard evidence for the "80%" the poster above cited?

Also how should I weave in plans for a backup specialty? I've heard that people having psych, for example, as a backup has backfired if their CV has a ton of derm research products.

Lastly, does the 11.6 average number of research products include case reports, undergrad research, and other stuff possibly NOT in pubmed?

 

[Dr. Doctor MD]

Yeah. Life's not fair, nbd. I'm happy for the program I got accepted to and what I have so far (inb4 this becomes another rant thread). Does anyone have hard evidence for the "80%" the poster above cited?

Also how should I weave in plans for a backup specialty? I've heard that people having psych, for example, as a backup has backfired if their CV has a ton of derm research products.

Lastly, does the 11.6 average number of research products include case reports, undergrad research, and other stuff possibly NOT in pubmed?

Not 11.6, it's higher now at 15, and yes that includes case reports and publications from undergrad. Most research in reputable journals will show up in pubmed, but technically anything that was peer-reviewed and published in a journal counts.

Also no hard evidence for the 80%, a combination of personal experience and reviewing charting outcomes.

 

[Lawpy]

Rising M1 here. I know it’s super early but I want to at least make derm a possibility in the future, so I’m looking into it. I’ve heard that nepotism accounts for a lot of the derm match. How much? If I don’t have any nepotistic connection to derm specifically, should I vie for another competitive field instead? I will say my home program is strong for derm, and is where I’d probably want to end up.

Could I create my own nepotism by networking over the next few years?

Wait I'm confused. Why would nepotism matter for derm? What's wrong with just doing the usual approach of getting high Steps, straight (or near) honoring clinical years, AOA, research and networking?

 

[sargon2123]

Wait I'm confused. Why would nepotism matter for derm? What's wrong with just doing the usual approach of getting high Steps, straight (or near) honoring clinical years, AOA, research and networking?

Small field with too many quality apps

 

[Lawpy]

Small field with too many quality apps

Even then I'm not sure where you're getting the importance of nepotism. On top of the strategy listed above (which itself is difficult to achieve), top school name and aways would play a role.

Networking is pretty important but requiring outright nepotism is something hard to believe so i wasn't sure if it's just speculation or whether you're basing it on something concrete.

 

[mrbreakfast]

The whole "nepotism" thing is being HIGHLY oversold here. None of the people I know in derm have relatives in the field. I'm not that sure where you got that from, keeping in mind that much/most of what you hear as a premed is incorrect.

Connections/networking are important, as they are for all the smaller fields. This is how people with weaker apps get matched; they have amazing letters from people big in the field. That's how an individual from my med school matched derm with a low-230s several years ago.

I am in a smaller field (not derm), and I will say this: about half my residency interviewers mentioned to me they personally knew at least one of my letter-writers. That's how you use networking. It's not by being someone's niece. Residency isn't like med school, you aren't getting in based on blood relations or recommendations alone.

To actually answer your questions:

should I vie for another competitive field instead?

Doesn't matter until you take Step 1, but my recommendation to every pre-clinical student is to keep an open mind and shadow in your free time. People are drawn to the "dollar signs" of derm and plastics, for example, without actually experiencing them until third year. Wanna know what will really kill your perfect ortho application? Realizing you hate the OR. Etc.

Also how should I weave in plans for a backup specialty?

Your backup will probably be internal medicine or pathology. You likely aren't going to be able to pull something else off. This planning is complicated and is best left for M4.

 

[Lawpy]

The whole "nepotism" thing is being HIGHLY oversold here. None of the people I know in derm have relatives in the field. I'm not that sure where you got that from, keeping in mind that much/most of what you hear as a premed is incorrect.

Connections/networking are important, as they are for all the smaller fields. This is how people with weaker apps get matched; they have amazing letters from people big in the field. That's how an individual from my med school matched derm with a low-230s several years ago.

I am in a smaller field (not derm), and I will say this: about half my residency interviewers mentioned to me they personally knew at least one of my letter-writers. That's how you use networking. It's not by being someone's niece. Residency isn't like med school, you aren't getting in based on blood relations or recommendations alone.

To actually answer your questions:

Doesn't matter until you take Step 1, but my recommendation to every pre-clinical student is to keep an open mind and shadow in your free time. People are drawn to the "dollar signs" of derm and plastics, for example, without actually experiencing them until third year. Wanna know what will really kill your perfect ortho application? Realizing you hate the OR. Etc.


Your backup will probably be internal medicine or pathology. You likely aren't going to be able to pull something else off. This planning is complicated and is best left for M4.

Thanks for this. Was really confused by the thread but your post helped clarify things a lot.

 

[deleted480308]

Yeah. Life's not fair, nbd. I'm happy for the program I got accepted to and what I have so far (inb4 this becomes another rant thread). Does anyone have hard evidence for the "80%" the poster above cited?

Also how should I weave in plans for a backup specialty? I've heard that people having psych, for example, as a backup has backfired if their CV has a ton of derm research products.

Lastly, does the 11.6 average number of research products include case reports, undergrad research, and other stuff possibly NOT in pubmed?

If your application is legitimately competitive for derm, it is competitive for anything.

If you don’t get derm it is far more likely that your app isn’t right than you being related to the wrong people.

Just study and don’t worry about what you cannot change

 

[Planes2Doc]

Work very hard. Study for Step 1 from day one. With high board scores and good clerkship grades, anything is possible!

 

[MSTP18]

Yeah. Life's not fair, nbd. I'm happy for the program I got accepted to and what I have so far (inb4 this becomes another rant thread). Does anyone have hard evidence for the "80%" the poster above cited?

Also how should I weave in plans for a backup specialty? I've heard that people having psych, for example, as a backup has backfired if their CV has a ton of derm research products.

Lastly, does the 11.6 average number of research products include case reports, undergrad research, and other stuff possibly NOT in pubmed?

Those numbers absolutely include stuff not in pubmed. It even includes student research day at the medical school, and while the following is not appropriate, if often includes papers that are in preparation or in submission.

Factors not associated with matching included the number of published manuscripts (p=0.460) and the combined impact factor of all published manuscripts (p=0.490). Multivariate analysis revealed that the USMLE Step 1 score (p=0.001), medical school research rank (p=0.040), and total number of unpublished manuscripts (p=0.046) were significantly associated matching in dermatology.

The Effect Of Academic “Misrepresentation” on Residency Match Outcomes

Author(s): Maverakis, Emanual; Li, Chin-Shang; Alikhan, Ali; Lin, Tzu-Chun; Idriss, Nayla; Armstrong, April W

escholarship.org

 

[MSTP18]

Not 11.6, it's higher now at 15, and yes that includes case reports and publications from undergrad. Most research in reputable journals will show up in pubmed, but technically anything that was peer-reviewed and published in a journal counts.

Also no hard evidence for the 80%, a combination of personal experience and reviewing charting outcomes.

If we're really talking "family relative nepotism" I would actually venture your 80% not needing it is low balling.

 

[PhillyMed777]

You are misinformed regarding nepotism in derm. Going to a top medical school helps because you network with famous faculty. That's not the same as frank nepotism.

Instances of true nepotism do exist and I am personally aware of a few, but that is not the way the vast vast majority of people get into derm.

Work on doing well in school, and impressing faculty away and at home with your ability to work well with others and actually have a real interest in the field.