Is your admin as bad as mine?

[GoodmanBrown]

Just curious if people feel like medical school administrations are generally terrible, or if mine is exceptionally bad. I go to a decent school, and on the whole, my education has been positively influenced by lots of educators who really want me to be a great doctor.

But the admin at my school are incompetent. They interact with us in 2 ways: 1) Via "mandatory," 2-hour long meetings that present information that I could've read about in 10 minutes in a decently formatted pdf, or 2) "mandatory" meetings that are meant to stress how important X is to our residency applications, where X is Step 1, Step 2 CK, Step 2 CS, clinical grades, research, etc.

They also manage to constantly break our already-sh*tty electronic resources. For example, we recently migrated from one sh*tty email interface to another sh*tty one. But about 1/2 the class lost all their old emails in the migration. The migration also actually reduced the functionality of the email system. Stellar work!

In theory, we can add or drop electives online which is very nice. However, we're transitioning to a new server or something, so the page hasn't been running for weeks. And even if it was, I've been denied access to the schedules to see what's open now anyhow. The only person who can do add/drops is totally overworked and doesn't respond to emails for 3-4 weeks.

I haven't been able to access my grades for months now, so I'm mainly just emailing admin assitants to find out my rotation grades. It's a f***ing farce.

[/RANT]

Is it this bad for everyone? Are med school administrations so cushioned by demand that they can be incredibly bad at their jobs with no repercussions?

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[OCDEMS]

I'm sure I'll be just as irritated as you are now. 100% certain of it actually. Anyway...

The reality is that useless meetings occur due to outliers within any populace. At least 10-20% of any group of people, outstanding or otherwise, will be completely unable to make adult decisions. Emails and written correspondence are one of the most ignored forms of written communication I've ever seen, even when the important red exclamation mark indicates that subordinates should read them. Having a meeting is basically just a way to relay the information so that you can later go, "We had a meeting and you sat right there and stared at me while the words came out of my mouth. Your noncompliance is on you and no one else."

Let me add that this type of behavior transcends age groups. I think younger people are often linked with this behavior but I have also seen 40 year old adults who have somehow managed to get through life by always blaming their bosses for their own failures. Some people are remarkably adept at manipulating systems to avoid ever being responsible for anything. If you're the person who is ultimately responsible for taking flak, either from a Board of Directors or Trustees, or someone else, you're going to try and mitigate your risk when it comes to failure, period. You'd be absolutely astounded regarding the attitude of some people who sit in positions of corporate governance and who are willing to baby employees through their responsibilities. When you try to fire someone, they're the first to say, "Well, did you tell them their expectations?" You say, "Well, it is clearly spelled out in the employee manual." They'll then go, "Well, has there been some sort of refresher or meeting about it recently?" You just blink, frustrated, and go about scheduling more useless meetings.

My personal opinion is that educational institutions, medical or otherwise, have probably perfected issuing the "party line." When I was in undergrad, I was always surprised with the absolutely BS justifications that administration would give for no notice schedule changes, fluid expectations, etc. I would sit there absolutely in disbelief that someone had the steel to actually say some of that stuff. But I took it like a champ, complained to my peers, and powered on like a good little drone. If you did that in many institutions, you wouldn't last long. Especially if those employees are in anyway stakeholders in the success of your mission. You'll get hanged out to dry. Being a nice boss can often get you nothing but contempt and manipulation. Letting people know that, ultimately, you're in charge and what you say goes can go a long way toward a smooth operation. Your subordinates may not love you, but you'll have less headaches. Educational institutions are in the ultimate position to use these tactics because they hold all of the cards. Literally, as a student in a competitive field like medicine, you have no power. 7,000-8,000 very qualified people apply to these institutions every year, so the only benefit they get by keeping you is your continued tuition. That argument only goes so far.

What's a shame is that some leaders are able to actually lead without using these tactics. They manage to be beloved and respected without being a dictator, but it's rare. The two alternatives include both dissension and disorder. One involves pissed-off medical students and the other involves potentially loosing your job. People willing to dance the line of benevolent boss are, in my opinion, more stressed. You must constantly battle the people trying to manipulate the system for the greater good of those who are in compliance. In a medical school, you get 100-200 new personalities every year and each of them, to some extent, could potentially be a new liability for your school. Having strong policies in place goes a long way, but some people are just not content unless everything is burning down around them. Finally, remember that medical schools accept legacies and that people who are admitted to these schools, on average, tend to come from families of some means. What does that mean? Lawyers. Now you understand why your administration is being a dick.

They also manage to constantly break our already-sh*tty electronic resources. For example, we recently migrated from one sh*tty email interface to another sh*tty one. But about 1/2 the class lost all their old emails in the migration. The migration also actually reduced the functionality of the email system. Stellar work!

IT sucks everywhere. I had an excellent IT manager and he was worth his weight in gold. Personally, an institution should hire an excellent IT guy/gal and heap tons of money at them to stay. Any efficient institution utilizes technology to its fullest. Having someone to bring the hammer down when stuff isn't working is invaluable. They need to have an in depth, expert knowledge of the material (less their subordinates not respect them) AND have the steel to rain down fire when everyone is running around the building going, "Stop everything...the internet is gone!!!!"

 

[messenger634]

This might be a possible resource to look into.

As far as I know, these guys are the "watchdog" of making sure medical schools run appropriately.

Maybe they're just a formality, but this might be an organization to consider contacting.

http://www.lcme.org

I'll try to reply later with more comments.

 

[HatWobble]

This might be a possible resource to look into.

As far as I know, these guys are the "watchdog" of making sure medical schools run appropriately.

Maybe they're just a formality, but this might be an organization to consider contacting.

http://www.lcme.org

I'll try to reply later with more comments.

Yes, great idea, get your school, the organization that provides you with your medical degree, in trouble with the organization that provides its accreditation. Bravo.

Talk about "biting the hand that feeds".

 

[theshellyb]

Yes, great idea, get your school, the organization that provides you with your medical degree, in trouble with the organization that provides its accreditation. Bravo.

Talk about "biting the hand that feeds".

This. What a monumentally stupid idea.

 

[HatWobble]

"Where'd you go to medical school?"

"I went to XYZ School of Medicine."

"Oh, XYZ? I've heard bad things about them actually. Didn't they lose their accreditation a few years ago?"

"Funny you mention that..."

 

[theshellyb]

"Where'd you go to medical school?"

"I went to XYZ School of Medicine."

"Oh, XYZ? I've heard bad things about them actually. Didn't they lose their accreditation a few years ago?"

"Funny you mention that..."

And good luck matching when your school loses its accreditation while you're there!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Ju..._accreditation_and_loss_of_LCME_accreditation

 

[messenger634]

Yes, great idea, get your school, the organization that provides you with your medical degree, in trouble with the organization that provides its accreditation. Bravo.

Talk about "biting the hand that feeds".

Arent the student that pay the 200k in tuition the feeders?

I love how most agreed that their school is just as poorly run, but nobody has any advice.

 

[Wordead]

Med school admins are the most ****ing incompetent turds I've ever had the misfortune of encountering. Including hobos off the street. It's infurating how many "deans of BS" we have that clearly add nothing, and in fact are subtraction by addition 90% of the time.

 

[witzelsucht]

Arent the student that pay the 200k in tuition the feeders?

Uh, not really. There's about 50,000 people who would be willing to take a first year spot and pay double the standard rate for doing so. Furthermore, there's a few hundred well-qualified students from various Caribbean schools who would pay triple tuition happily, and take any M2, 3 or 4 spot, even if it means repeating a year or two.

Conversely, if you drop out, even under good academic circumstances, good luck getting into a nursing program, let alone MD or even PA. Supply and demand for healthcare education is not quite at equilibrium conditions.

But even disregarding all that - the fact is that in any medial residency or profession you are going to be dealing with this kinda bull****. Useless rotations, hospital politics, patient experience improvement committees chaired by burned out RNs, private office politics, jumping through insurance and regulatory hoops, it's all in the game, yo. Best to just get some iPhone games or sudoku books and make the best of it.

 

[theshellyb]

I love how most agreed that their school is just as poorly run, but nobody has any advice.

Um, how about, try to talk to your administration directly? Do you have solutions? Do you think there are concerns that the administration isn't meeting? Set up an appointment with your Dean of Students, or run for student government, or talk to the leaders in your class. There are many ways to address certain issues in the way your med school is run. Tattling to the LCME is not one of them.

 

[messenger634]

Um, how about, try to talk to your administration directly? Do you have solutions? Do you think there are concerns that the administration isn't meeting? Set up an appointment with your Dean of Students, or run for student government, or talk to the leaders in your class. There are many ways to address certain issues in the way your med school is run. Tattling to the LCME is not one of them.

I generally agree. Those would be my first choices. Though I think it's good to be aware of the bigger picture. As I more or less said in another post, the rate of return regarding competent (and ethical administrative capability is far far lower than anywhere else I have ever been, and I have worked in a number of jobs and places.

These people live on such a bubble, there is really nobody I can think of besides the LCMe off the top of my head that they might need to'answer' to.

 

[evilbooyaa]

I generally agree. Those would be my first choices. Though I think it's good to be aware of the bigger picture. As I more or less said in another post, the rate of return regarding competent (and ethical administrative capability is far far lower than anywhere else I have ever been, and I have worked in a number of jobs and places.

These people live on such a bubble, there is really nobody I can think of besides the LCMe off the top of my head that they might need to'answer' to.

Clearly you haven't read any of the other posts in this thread. If you go tell the LCME, which acts (for example, by taking away your school's accreditation) then what are you left with? Either 100k+ in debt w/ no MD, or 200k+ in debt with a near-useless piece of paper.

There is no benefit for you to do something like this while you are still in school. You could do it once you were in residency but you'd be screwing over all your previous classmates.

Basically the solution is to air your grievances with the admins. While they may be incompetent, they are generally not heartless. Yes there's an awful lot of them, and yes I'm not sure what 75% of them do, but if I had a serious problem with the way something was being run, I'd either talk to them directly or through the SGA to get it fixed.