It seems many future DOs have chip on their shoulder

[TallScrubs]

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I don't post too often but I certainly read enough threads to realize something: many future DOs seem to have a large chip on their respective shoulders.

I don't think future DOs should always feel obligated to defend the profession and get all bent out of shape every time someone comes into this forum and doesn't know EVERYTHING about osteopathic medicine. We can't forget there was a time when none of us knew anything about the profession.

I am not trying to sound like 'morel orel" (that how you spell the show?) but I am really into osteopathy. Every DO i have ever talked to about osteopathy have answered my questions politely and honestly without sounding angry or defensive...and I think we should do the same even if the questions do get frustrating.

Sorry for the rant.

 

[NurWollen]

I think the main issue for most people is that people come on here and ask the same tired questions again and again, instead of doing a search, or instead of looking up osteopathic medicine on Wikipedia, or, heaven forbid, talking to a DO.

One hour shadowing a DO is worth one thousand hours of beating dead horses.

 

[painmd87]

I don't post too often but I certainly read enough threads to realize something: many future DOs seem to have a large chip on their respective shoulders.

I don't think future DOs should always feel obligated to defend the profession and get all bent out of shape every time someone comes into this forum and doesn't know EVERYTHING about osteopathic medicine. We can't forget there was a time when none of us knew anything about the profession.

I am not trying to sound like 'morel orel" (that how you spell the show?) but I am really into osteopathy. Every DO i have ever talked to about osteopathy have answered my questions politely and honestly without sounding angry or defensive...and I think we should do the same even if the questions do get frustrating.

Sorry for the rant.

Many? Maybe. Most? Definitely not. Also remember that SDN is a poor representative sample. You have people who are rabidly in favor of the fact that osteopathy is exactly the same as allopathic medicine, and they are the ones that tend to turn out for threads here.

I prefer the osteopathic board's strong defense of osteopathy to the allopathic board where 2/3 of threads are met with either LOLcats or "use the search" or "troll!!" What's the point of that?

And for the record, I find what I'm looking for on search 1/2 the time. It's really a terrible answer to say "use the search function" to every repeated question -- sometimes it takes less effort to answer the question again rather than bashing the poster for asking something. You're going to have patients and coworkers asking you the same questions over and over again for the rest of your life -- are you going to tell them to look it up on their own or are you going to help them?

 

[DbDan]

I'm with NurWollen and elftown on this one. I have no problem answering questions and specifics if I know the answer. Generally even if i don't know it I'll look around to try to find some kind of answer. It is when people ask questions that are very easily answered or demonstrate absolutely no knowledge of the profession when they are applying to the schools that I get frustrated. I'll answer "what is a DO" all day from patients and non-medical personnel but when someone who could potentially go to school with me next year is asking if they can practice medicine with a DO degree I think its understandable to get frustrated.

 

[painmd87]

I'm with NurWollen and elftown on this one. I have no problem answering questions and specifics if I know the answer. Generally even if i don't know it I'll look around to try to find some kind of answer. It is when people ask questions that are very easily answered or demonstrate absolutely no knowledge of the profession when they are applying to the schools that I get frustrated. I'll answer "what is a DO" all day from patients and non-medical personnel but when someone who could potentially go to school with me next year is asking if they can practice medicine with a DO degree I think its understandable to get frustrated.

Oh no doubt people who are applying need to know more about it than a college sophomore who comes in here asking.

I think we should just remember that we all started with no knowledge. Someone taught us at some point, or we figured it out on our own. Not everyone is as good at the latter as others.

 

[Kevin Baker]

I think the main issue is that this is SDN. The culture of these forums tends to be a lot of sarcasm, and belittling people for not knowing "obvious" things.

That's not necessarily a bad thing, as this profession entails learning a lot on your own, but if I wanted to troll forums only to get told I'm a newb in one word or another, I wouldn't be on SDN.

The DO board isn't nearly as bad as the allo board in this regard, but it rubs off. Sure, there are some awesome posters, and this board particularly has many of the more helpful ones.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Everyone summed it up perfectly:

1. I really don't take any issue with your statement. We should be proud to be DOs and explain it when necessary (without feeling weird, inferior, etc). We all worked hard to get here, and you guys will figure out how difficult it really is to achieve soon.

2. The reason people get bugged on this site, in my opinion, is a. people ask the same very basic questions again, and again, and again without respecting anybody else's time (ie: not performing a search). I mean, you're really going to find SDN, take the time to sign up for an account, and then make your first post 'Can a DO do surgery?' Ugh.

b. As someone else said ... it's SDN. Pretty sarcastic, good place to rant/discuss issues, etc. Welcome to the interweb.

c. A small sect of insane pre-allos cause the need for defense sometimes. These are the people who seriously find pleasure belittling DOs (keep in mind these are pre-medical students). It's frustrating, but my experience is that this type of blatant attitude doesn't exist outside of the realm of SDN. Even if DO discrimination exists in small little spurts (which is a whole other discussion), it would never be anything like it is on here, and that's the reason people sometimes blow up.

 

[NurWollen]

The DO board isn't nearly as bad as the allo board in this regard, but it rubs off. Sure, there are some awesome posters, and this board particularly has many of the more helpful ones.

Pre Allo Boards:
OP: "I have a 3.9cgpa, but my scpa is only a 3.8 due a B+ (horrible, I know) I got in Biochem. My MCAT is only 10V 14 PS 13 BS. but I am retaking it in two weeks. I have shadowed for 300 hours and published 3 papers, and I was a second author on a paper where the PI was a Nobel laureate. Should I bother to apply this cycle?"
Response: " Apply broadly to some of the lower tier schools and you might make it, or you might consider and SMP to prove that you can handle it. You might also remember that med school isn't for everyone, if you can't bring up your verbal score you might need to face the fact that some people can't hack it, I mean, how to expect pass Step I with your mediocre test-taking skills?"

I seriously feel like a turd when I read the pre-allo boards.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

Pre Allo Boards:
OP: "I have a 3.9cgpa, but my scpa is only a 3.8 due a B+ (horrible, I know) I got in Biochem. My MCAT is only 10V 14 PS 13 BS. but I am retaking it in two weeks. I have shadowed for 300 hours and published 3 papers, and I was a second author on a paper where the PI was a Nobel laureate. Should I bother to apply this cycle?"
Response: " Apply broadly to some of the lower tier schools and you might make it, or you might consider and SMP to prove that you can handle it. You might also remember that med school isn't for everyone, if you can't bring up your verbal score you might need to face the fact that some people can't hack it, I mean, how to expect pass Step I with your mediocre test-taking skills?"

I seriously feel like a turd when I read the pre-allo boards.

That's a good one...I have seen that many times in the pre allo forum. The pre allo forum is a joke and make some people believe they will never get into med school even if they are well rounded applicants.

 

[angryazn88]

Pre Allo Boards:
OP: "I have a 3.9cgpa, but my scpa is only a 3.8 due a B+ (horrible, I know) I got in Biochem. My MCAT is only 10V 14 PS 13 BS. but I am retaking it in two weeks. I have shadowed for 300 hours and published 3 papers, and I was a second author on a paper where the PI was a Nobel laureate. Should I bother to apply this cycle?"
Response: " Apply broadly to some of the lower tier schools and you might make it, or you might consider and SMP to prove that you can handle it. You might also remember that med school isn't for everyone, if you can't bring up your verbal score you might need to face the fact that some people can't hack it, I mean, how to expect pass Step I with your mediocre test-taking skills?"

I seriously feel like a turd when I read the pre-allo boards.

Don't worry about them NurWollen... focus on yourself cause you're going to have a chance to redeem yourself in med school. And if you choose, you can also take the USMLE and destroy that **** and rub it in their faces muahahaha

 

[NPEMTIV]

I don't post too often but I certainly read enough threads to realize something: many future DOs seem to have a large chip on their respective shoulders.

I think it would be better to say future DO students seem to have a large chip.....

It's really the pre-meds that exhibit this attitude. Once you're actually in medical school you're too busy to worry about all this....you have to study. This becomes even less when you start clerkships and work with professionals with multiple degrees, certifications, etc and realize no one cares about the degree as long as you can competently perform your job.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

That's a good one...I have seen that many times in the pre allo forum. The pre allo forum is a joke and make some people believe they will never get into med school even if they are well rounded applicants.

The reality is that even if you are well rounded there is a chance that you'll fail to get in. That small chance makes those pre-med gunners in pre-allo piss themselves every night.
But the fact is that the process of becoming a physician especially in MD school is that its become so competitive. That it breeds near delusional beliefs that they aren't good enough. That being said, Pre-Osteo seems like a chiller place with a more broad selection of people. This is versus the Pre-Allo's which are seemingly all type A's who even though they act like they are down to Earth, but aren't and never will be.
Then again I'm a stick in the mud too.

 

[JaggerPlate]

I think it would be better to say future DO students seem to have a large chip.....

It's really the pre-meds that exhibit this attitude. Once you're actually in medical school you're too busy to worry about all this....you have to study. This becomes even less when you start clerkships and work with professionals with multiple degrees, certifications, etc and realize no one cares about the degree as long as you can competently perform your job.

qft.

I've only been in med school a few weeks now, and I can barely even fathom anymore arguing the DO v MD thing, defending it, etc. I'm too freaking swamped trying to earn the thing. Really puts things in perspective.

 

[IncantoCharms]

.

 

[JaggerPlate]

One of the doctors I work with is a DO, but nursing notes keep putting "MD at bedside" or "EKG given to MD". So I was making a conversation and said "It's funny how they refer to you as an MD". She replied, "Doesn't matter, we get the same training. I'm trained to do the exact same thing but just different initials". She seemed a bit defensive though, which freaked me out. I then asked her how often she gets to use OMM and she seemed surprised, so I also followed up that I have some upcoming DO interviews. The doctor def seemed in a better mood, but that could have been real awkward...

Almost all hospitals use the 'MD' for doctor. 'MD signature,' 'MD on call,' 'page MD,' etc. At the hospital I worked at they even gave the DOs tags that said 'MD' even though their coats/scrubs said DO. I don't think any docs really care.

I always kind of find it odd anyway. I mean, in that situation MD = physician/doctor/medical doctor. DOs are all of those things, so it's like ... who cares???

Personally, I'd want the 'DO' on everything (it's the degree I'm earning), but try dealing with all the clerical departments at a hospital to try and get that integrated into the system ... would not be fun.

 

[MiCasaMD]

So, OMG....I wanna be a doctor..like an MD and my parents are Asian and they say that I should be an MD but I was like I wanna be a DO and they were like OMG..what is a DO? like my parents are Asian and they say that I should be an MD. And i said DO is like MD but my parents are Asian so they were like OMG, What?! And I said said MD is like DO, like home made noodles is like Ramen.🙂

 

[MightyMoose]

 

[JeetKuneDo]

I would like a cookie now.

 

[NPEMTIV]

qft.

I've only been in med school a few weeks now, and I can barely even fathom anymore arguing the DO v MD thing, defending it, etc. I'm too freaking swamped trying to earn the thing. Really puts things in perspective.

It gets more and more so as you progress on through your training. It's a game changer. If only pre-meds could see and understand it before wasting so much time worrying about these things....🙄

 

[traitorman]

That being said, Pre-Osteo seems like a chiller place with a more broad selection of people. This is versus the Pre-Allo's which are seemingly all type A's who even though they act like they are down to Earth, but aren't and never will be.
Then again I'm a stick in the mud too.

i get the same impression. if i want a laugh, ill usually go to the pre-allo forums just because of how ridiculously sarcastic people can get. makes for entertaining threads tho 👍

Almost all hospitals use the 'MD' for doctor. 'MD signature,' 'MD on call,' 'page MD,' etc. At the hospital I worked at they even gave the DOs tags that said 'MD' even though their coats/scrubs said DO. I don't think any docs really care.

I always kind of find it odd anyway. I mean, in that situation MD = physician/doctor/medical doctor. DOs are all of those things, so it's like ... who cares???

Personally, I'd want the 'DO' on everything (it's the degree I'm earning), but try dealing with all the clerical departments at a hospital to try and get that integrated into the system ... would not be fun.

dunno if u read gevitz book on DOs, but this just had me thinking about how much the osteopathic profession had to go through to get to where it is today (and even now, there are still many who don't know about the profession). at one point, they seriously considered just changing the DO to an MD degree

 

[JaggerPlate]

It gets more and more so as you progress on through your training. It's a game changer. If only pre-meds could see and understand it before wasting so much time worrying about these things....🙄

I can only imagine. Seriously though ... I'm three weeks in and can't even imagine trying to defend what I'm doing to some 17 year old WOW fan who is trying to say DOs can only be rural family practitioners in Ohio. Lol, seriously a game changer.

 

[TallScrubs]

When i wrote the original post, i only meant to associate it with pre-osteo students and not med or attending DOs.

And as far as my main focus, I also didn't intend for this to be a DO vs MD type thing, but more like laypeople vs pre-DOs and many pre-DOs getting so beant out of shape because of it.

 

[JaggerPlate]

When i wrote the original post, i only meant to associate it with pre-osteo students and not med or attending DOs.

And as far as my main focus, I also didn't intend for this to be a DO vs MD type thing, but more like laypeople vs pre-DOs and many pre-DOs getting so beant out of shape because of it.

Eh, I think you kind of missed the point. I don't think pre-DOs get pissed when Joe the Plumber asks 'what's a DO' (which happens pretty frequently apparently in the world according to pre-medical students), pre-DOs on these boards get bugged when a. people ask 'Can a DO suture?' without using the freaking search engine, and b. when people bash with absolutely no basis besides the drivel they read here.

 

[cbrons]

Having a chip on shoulder is a good thing. Pushes you to do better, rise above the other slobz.

Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®

 

[megathunder]

Just wanted to come in and say...

Win.

 

[DrDOit]

*

 

[cbrons]

I want to thank the DO's of our previous generation for breaking the barriers and doing so much to show that this profession has been so good to its patients. It makes it much easier for my generation to practice osteopathic medicine, I will do the same in return to educate the public on what our profession is all about (if i get into a DO school and complete my education).

DOs are in the same profession as MDs... I know that may not be technically correct but I find it funny that its advertised as a "whole new approach" as if it were its own system. If anything, from reading Gevitz, spending 3 yrs+ on SDN, working in healthcare closely with DOs... I really just think the DO is a separate path that is nearly parallel with that of so-called allopathic medicine (which is a rather antiquated and non-sensical term in and of itself).


Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®

 

[Tin Man]

SDN may not be representative, but for what it's worth, the vast majority of DO doctors and students I have talked with about the profession have gone to great lengths to downplay the osteopathy part of their training, as if they were embarrassed about it.

I don't care one way or the other. I'm just saying that SDN may not be totally wrong when it comes to dealing with the confidence levels of a DO. Anecdotally, it's actually shown a greater percentage of people who don't admit to doing DO because of failure to get into MD than real-life experience has shown me.

 

[willen101383]

SDN may not be representative, but for what it's worth, the vast majority of DO doctors and students I have talked with about the profession have gone to great lengths to downplay the osteopathy part of their training, as if they were embarrassed about it.

I don't care one way or the other. I'm just saying that SDN may not be totally wrong when it comes to dealing with the confidence levels of a DO. Anecdotally, it's actually shown a greater percentage of people who don't admit to doing DO because of failure to get into MD than real-life experience has shown me.

DOs on SDN are just tired of getting **** on constantly anonymously by pre allo posters who dont really know WTF they are talking about in any respect. It gets old. I dont think anyone has confidence issues its just obnoxious to listen to constantly. There are plenty of people on here who could have gone to an MD school if they really wanted to. I just really wanted to stay in Philly. I have a house, a girlfriend with a career, and a life here that I am not just going to up and leave for the sake of getting a MD...especially since I know the education I am getting is excellent and to the same level as most MD schools.

 

[willen101383]

DOs are in the same profession as MDs... I know that may not be technically correct but I find it funny that its advertised as a "whole new approach" as if it were its own system. If anything, from reading Gevitz, spending 3 yrs+ on SDN, working in healthcare closely with DOs... I really just think the DO is a separate path that is nearly parallel with that of so-called allopathic medicine (which is a rather antiquated and non-sensical term in and of itself).


Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®

There is absolutely no difference aside from the 1-2 hours of OMM you learn a week..and I cant really say ive learned anything from the OMM ive gotten so far.

 

[Tin Man]

There is absolutely no difference aside from the 1-2 hours of OMM you learn a week..and I cant really say ive learned anything from the OMM ive gotten so far.

SDN may not be representative, but for what it's worth, the vast majority of DO doctors and students I have talked with about the profession have gone to great lengths to downplay the osteopathy part of their training, as if they were embarrassed about it.

🙂

 

[willen101383]

🙂

I am in no way embarassed about


A. My school
B.Being a DO student
C.OMM (when used for musculoskeletal issues)

I however AM embarrassed by professors who attempt to extend OMM to treat anything under the sun. Yes 150 years ago OMM was a better treatment for a lot of things than the medicine MDs were practicing. However nowadays there are better tx for a lot of things than OMM.

Sometimes you need to "downplay" (aka the reality) of how OMM is taught here on SDN. Just a few days ago there was a thread in pre allo about "omgz i would never go to DO school bc of OMM/cranial." I think a lot of pre allos think that OMM is this HUGE part of DO school and being a DO....when in fact its quite minimal (with the exception of OMM "specialists")

 

[Tin Man]

Sometimes you need to "downplay" (aka the reality) of how OMM is taught here on SDN. Just a few days ago there was a thread in pre allo about "omgz i would never go to DO school bc of OMM/cranial." I think a lot of pre allos think that OMM is this HUGE part of DO school and being a DO....when in fact its quite minimal (with the exception of OMM "specialists")

It's not that people see OMM as a huge part of being a DO. By your own admission, it's that OMM is really the only practing difference between a DO and an MD. Plenty of schools have different philosophies, so the idea that DO is different than MD by philosophy is as valid as saying that people at Mayo are different kinds of doctors than people from a state school.

With OMM being the main difference, the question gets raised then why DO schools generally have lower academic and MCAT requirements and allegedly more difficult times practicing outside of primary care.

To a pre-allo, and by this logic any layperson, if you take away OMM, then a DO is little more than an MD who went to a school with easier standards and justify that fact with a philosophy they mistakenly believe that MD's don't share. Nothing more.

I don't have a dog in this fight; I'm just playing devil's advocate. I'm just trying to provide a little more accurate and logical point of view for the opposition's argument then the straw-man assertions I see here.

 

[JamesLMT]

It's not that people see OMM as a huge part of being a DO. By your own admission, it's that OMM is really the only practing difference between a DO and an MD. Plenty of schools have different philosophies, so the idea that DO is different than MD by philosophy is as valid as saying that people at Mayo are different kinds of doctors than people from a state school.

I think you take this a step to far. You can compare apples to apples (fiji, golden delicious, etc.) Those would be comparing different MD schools. Comparing apples to oranges, however, is a bit different, yes they are all fruit, they share similar qualities, but they are different. So saying that MD schools are like apples and DO schools are like oranges, you can say they are all fruit and therefore the same, but the have differences.

With OMM being the main difference, the question gets raised then why DO schools generally have lower academic and MCAT requirements and allegedly more difficult times practicing outside of primary care.

This is merely a matter of tradition, and one that is changing slowly. If you will notice, DO schools averages of acceptances have been increasing, some even matching the lower end MD schools. DO schools also don't want to focus only on grades and pass up a good doctor.

To a pre-allo, and by this logic any layperson, if you take away OMM, then a DO is little more than an MD who went to a school with easier standards and justify that fact with a philosophy they mistakenly believe that MD's don't share.

This statement is too general, to justify it most to all MD's would have to share the same philosophy that DO's promote.


Society as a whole resists change, it is just how we are. We will not accept new ideas and stick to the old ways even thought they may be right. The world is round? WTF, NO! We orbit the sun? WTF, NO! The Doctor of Osteopathy degree is still new (relitively speaking)and is transitioning to mainstream. As more and more people accept the idea of a DO=MD, then the stats to DO schools will rise, and the MD/DO barrier will fade. As long as the bias from MD's fades... Sorry about my spelling, I'm not really paying attention, my boss is grilling me.

 

[cbrons]

I will be picking a school based upon three things:

1. Location (i.e. not in downtown Chicago cause I can't stand it)
2. Quality of education (gauged by a number of things including rotation opportunities)
3. Atmosphere (friendliness of staff, fellow students, etc.)

What I will not be picking a school based upon:

1. Degree awarded
2. "Prestige"


Do you think you are going to be working with nurses, PAs, paramedics, etc. down the road who are going to give two ****s about your degree? You're still gunna be the boss and they'll either respect you just as much as MDs or hate you just as much.

As far as your peers with MDs go, I really have my doubts as to whether they are ever going to raise the degree issue. The younger MDs in family practice here all did residencies with DOs and work with them here on a daily basis. It's just like pharmacists frankly. When I worked in pharmacy, the biggest prick physicians were the ones who were 60+ years old (they harp back to an era where the physician had total control). Nowadays, many schools teach some sort of team-based health care model. I know at one of my state schools medical students are taking classes with pharmacy students and doing rotations with them. These younger physicians are far more likely to ask for advice from pharmacists rather than treat them like garbage.

 

[Tin Man]

Fine, I'll keep playing. 🙂

I think you take this a step to far. You can compare apples to apples (fiji, golden delicious, etc.) Those would be comparing different MD schools. Comparing apples to oranges, however, is a bit different, yes they are all fruit, they share similar qualities, but they are different. So saying that MD schools are like apples and DO schools are like oranges, you can say they are all fruit and therefore the same, but the have differences.

You're stating that I'm wrong, but by using an analogy that you aren't justifying by linking it back to the real world. The poster I quoted said there was "absolutely no difference" between MD and DO besides the OMM. Whether or not this is the case is irrelevant. The point is that DO's often justify themselves as being just as good as an MD because they do all the same things, plus OMM. OMM, however, is the least respected part of osteopathy, and the part that most DO's generally try to downplay.

So OMM is both the primary difference between MD's and DO's, and also the most questionable from a scientific point of view. Why exactly, then, do DO's need a different title, different standards, different testing procedures, etc? That's the argument being made, and it's only being propagated by DO's who downplay the differences between MD's and DO's as limited to OMM.

This is merely a matter of tradition, and one that is changing slowly. If you will notice, DO schools averages of acceptances have been increasing, some even matching the lower end MD schools. DO schools also don't want to focus only on grades and pass up a good doctor.

Eh, that's a weak argument. There's nothing "traditional" about DO schools accepting less academic strength than MD schools. It's just been that way, from a DO-hater's point of view, because DO schools are inferior to MD schools in terms of the quality of the student. The averages exist because people who have the grades to get into an MD school generally don't go to a DO school. And, for what it's worth, some DO schools finally reaching the standards required of a student attending a low MD school is going to get laughed at by most people as an argument. It's admitting that DO students are just now getting comparable to the "worst" of the MD students.

Also, remember that the whole reason grades and MCAT scores are evaluated is because of the idea that they DO make good predictions about who's going to be a good doctor. Being a physician is an academically-straining career, and someone with lower grades is logically not as likely to stand up to the rigor and perform as well as someone who showed their gumption during their college years. I fully agree that there's more to candidacy for med school than grades, but this only makes a logical argument if it is a common occurrence for the average DO school to pass up a student who would otherwise be accepted to the average middle-tier MD school.

This statement is too general, to justify it most to all MD's would have to share the same philosophy that DO's promote.

And in order for that argument to be correct, all DO's would have to promote the philosophy they're supposed to. They don't. The "whole-body" philosophy isn't limited to or owned by osteopathy. You aren't going to find many physicians who reject the notion that psychosocial health is an important component to medicine. MD's are not proven to lack the philosophy that DO's actively promote just because it isn't the motto associated with their degree.

Society as a whole resists change, it is just how we are. We will not accept new ideas and stick to the old ways even thought they may be right. The world is round? WTF, NO! We orbit the sun? WTF, NO! The Doctor of Osteopathy degree is still new (relitively speaking)and is transitioning to mainstream. As more and more people accept the idea of a DO=MD, then the stats to DO schools will rise, and the MD/DO barrier will fade. As long as the bias from MD's fades... Sorry about my spelling, I'm not really paying attention, my boss is grilling me.

I'm not sure that the bias will fade as long as DO's continue to try to associate themselves with their MD counterparts. As long as DO's try to shorten the distance between DO and MD, especially by downplaying OMM, then all you're left with is doctors who went to a school with generally lower standards than even many low-tier medical schools. That's why the respect level for DO's, at least among pre-meds, is lower than for MD's. The only real difference is a questionable medical practice that most DO's insist they resent on a scientific level.

And, for what it's worth, the "allopathic" style of medicine has changed drastically in the last 100 years or so. In fact, that's one of the main arguments AGAINST OMM. It (like most holistic medicine) resists change, and science is change. Allopathic medicine, even if it is the cold, heartless machine that many DO's seem to insist it is, cannot be denied to be a machine based on science, and science is always changing things.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Fine, I'll keep playing. 🙂



You're stating that I'm wrong, but by using an analogy that you aren't justifying by linking it back to the real world. The poster I quoted said there was "absolutely no difference" between MD and DO besides the OMM. Whether or not this is the case is irrelevant. The point is that DO's often justify themselves as being just as good as an MD because they do all the same things, plus OMM. OMM, however, is the least respected part of osteopathy, and the part that most DO's generally try to downplay.

So OMM is both the primary difference between MD's and DO's, and also the most questionable from a scientific point of view. Why exactly, then, do DO's need a different title, different standards, different testing procedures, etc? That's the argument being made, and it's only being propagated by DO's who downplay the differences between MD's and DO's as limited to OMM.



Eh, that's a weak argument. There's nothing "traditional" about DO schools accepting less academic strength than MD schools. It's just been that way, from a DO-hater's point of view, because DO schools are inferior to MD schools in terms of the quality of the student. The averages exist because people who have the grades to get into an MD school generally don't go to a DO school. And, for what it's worth, some DO schools finally reaching the standards required of a student attending a low MD school is going to get laughed at by most people as an argument. It's admitting that DO students are just now getting comparable to the "worst" of the MD students.

Also, remember that the whole reason grades and MCAT scores are evaluated is because of the idea that they DO make good predictions about who's going to be a good doctor. Being a physician is an academically-straining career, and someone with lower grades is logically not as likely to stand up to the rigor and perform as well as someone who showed their gumption during their college years. I fully agree that there's more to candidacy for med school than grades, but this only makes a logical argument if it is a common occurrence for the average DO school to pass up a student who would otherwise be accepted to the average middle-tier MD school.



And in order for that argument to be correct, all DO's would have to promote the philosophy they're supposed to. They don't. The "whole-body" philosophy isn't limited to or owned by osteopathy. You aren't going to find many physicians who reject the notion that psychosocial health is an important component to medicine. MD's are not proven to lack the philosophy that DO's actively promote just because it isn't the motto associated with their degree.



I'm not sure that the bias will fade as long as DO's continue to try to associate themselves with their MD counterparts. As long as DO's try to shorten the distance between DO and MD, especially by downplaying OMM, then all you're left with is doctors who went to a school with generally lower standards than even many low-tier medical schools. That's why the respect level for DO's, at least among pre-meds, is lower than for MD's. The only real difference is a questionable medical practice that most DO's insist they resent on a scientific level.

And, for what it's worth, the "allopathic" style of medicine has changed drastically in the last 100 years or so. In fact, that's one of the main arguments AGAINST OMM. It (like most holistic medicine) resists change, and science is change. Allopathic medicine, even if it is the cold, heartless machine that many DO's seem to insist it is, cannot be denied to be a machine based on science, and science is always changing things.

ROFLLLLL

Dude, I love how everyone with .02% real world experience in medicine (ie: stepped foot in a medical school as a student) said that one of the main reasons people in pre-DO get so irritated is the frequency of clueless pre-allos who come in here and base an anti-DO thesis on assumptions, anecdotal evidence, and there own experience on SDN.

So far, you've built an argument (which I'm sure you're thrilled with) around a. What you've personally elicited from OTHER people, b. the opinions of other people, c. Averages and anecdotal experiences on SDN, d. what you ASSUME the component of OMM in the DO model entails, and e. your presumed definitions of osteopathy and allopathy.

Am I missing anything here??

You can do your best to apply all the knowledge you learned in freshman stats and that awesome undergrad research project you participated in over the summer, but the reality of the situation is that you are a pre-medical student who has never trained in either model nor have any first hand experience with medical education.

You don't know what you're talking about. Plain and simple. You can throw anything you want at me from here, but until you have first-hand knowledge and real-world experience in these models, you are the stereotypical definition of the annoying pre-med described earlier in this thread.

Shhhhhhh.

 

[Tin Man]

Dude, I love how everyone with .02% real world experience in medicine (ie: stepped foot in a medical school as a student) said that one of the main reasons people in pre-DO get so irritated is the frequency of clueless pre-allos who come in here and base an anti-DO thesis on assumptions, anecdotal evidence, and there own experience on SDN.

I'm not pre-allo, at least not exclusively. DO is and always has been on the table. If we're talking about making assumptions based on nothing, you're already down a point. I'm excited to see how many more you're going to lose in the next few posts. 😉

So far, you've built an argument (which I'm sure you're thrilled with) around a. What you've personally elicited from OTHER people, b. the opinions of other people, c. Averages and anecdotal experiences on SDN, d. what you ASSUME the component of OMM in the DO model entails, and e. your presumed definitions of osteopathy and allopathy.

Am I missing anything here??

I think the problem is that all you read out of my posts was the "arguing against DO" part without actually reading what I was saying. You went on automatic defensive mode. Read more carefully.

1) The main content of my arguments were based off of what DO students and doctors say. Twice in this thread (that I've read) has OMM been mentioned to be the only difference between DO and MD, by a DO student. At least once has OMM been admitted to be garbage by a DO student. These were not MY arguments. I mentioned them as arguments made by DO students. You assumed they were mine. You're down two points.

2) The rest of my arguments I openly admitted were from the viewpoint of most pre-allo students and "the layperson." If you read my posts, I mentioned several times WHY these people have a problem with osteopathy, NOT that their problems are valid ones. You didn't read, and you assumed I was attacking DO because of some personal vendetta. Three points down.

You can do your best to apply all the knowledge you learned in freshman stats and that awesome undergrad research project you participated in over the summer, but the reality of the situation is that you are a pre-medical student who has never trained in either model nor have any first hand experience with medical education.

I never claimed to have any inherent knowledge or experience that would lend my personal opinion of osteopathy any strength. This thread has consisted of people talking about DO's that feel the need to defend themselves. I was presenting the general arguments that DO's feel the need to defend against (and if you had read rather than reacted, you would have seen that). Four points down.

You don't know what you're talking about. Plain and simple. You can throw anything you want at me from here, but until you have first-hand knowledge and real-world experience in these models, you are the stereotypical definition of the annoying pre-med described earlier in this thread.

I have never trained in either model, nor have I claimed to "know what I am talking about", because I don't. Neither do any of the pre-meds making the arguments I'm bringing to this thread. And my POINT was to reflect the annoying, pre-med arguments described earlier in the thread. That's sort of the point of playing "devil's advocate." Five points.

Finally, realize that your response is EXACTLY the reason why these issues never get solved in the first place. You're angry because pre-allos exert a power-trip over osteopathy, so you respond by exerting a power-trip over pre-allos? Is that really rational? If you're angry about the debate and the ignorance of the pre-med community toward osteopathy, an APPROPRIATE response would be to prove the arguments wrong, not to simply state that pre-allos don't know what they're talking about. Because, unless you can prove that they are wrong and you DO know what you're talking about, then nobody believes you, and you just look like you're overcompensating. 6 points? Maybe.

Ironically, your response was exactly the one that most people here were complaining they hated in the pre-allo forums. You aren't a spy for them, right? 🙂

Oh, and you lost between 5-6 points to baseless assumptions. If you're going to accuse me of being ignorant, at least be kind enough to do your homework on what I'm actually saying so you, yourself, are not ignorant to the status of my ignorance.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Let me preface this response by stating that I have an exam tomorrow and truthfully don't have the time to thoroughly nitpick. Additionally, I don't know if/when I will ever comment in this thread again so make sure your response doesn't leave much room for my rebuttal ...

I'm not pre-allo, at least not exclusively. DO is and always has been on the table. If we're talking about making assumptions based on nothing, you're already down a point. I'm excited to see how many more you're going to lose in the next few posts. 😉

1. I don't believe you (guess I get to make some 'baseless assumptions' as well)

2. Your aura is undeniably pre-med annoying. I'm pretty sure you've authored an SDN blog discussing altruism and people 'bashing' you for 'not caring about the money.' Again, any cowboy here worth a damn just rolled their eyes - hard.

3. Nice with the point taking. Did you not get the 'freshman stats + summer research project' street smartz joke?? Too easy.

I think the problem is that all you read out of my posts was the "arguing against DO" part without actually reading what I was saying. You went on automatic defensive mode. Read more carefully.

So you were just paraphrasing someone else??? I didn't see the citations or the pro-DO part. Show me???

1) The main content of my arguments were based off of what DO students and doctors say.

And the main content of my argument is that you don't know what the hell you're talking about because you base the entirety of your POV on the anecdotes of the < 3 (I'd presume) DOs/DO student you've spoken to. Can you refute this??? If not, then you have no base to argue with me. I'm saying you have no first-hand knowledge and therefore shouldn't be throwing your .02 cents in like an expert. Even if you're simply trying to reiterate what you've heard before ... yield when people with experience and actual knowledge say you're wrong (because you probably are).

Twice in this thread (that I've read) has OMM been mentioned to be the only difference between DO and MD, by a DO student. At least once has OMM been admitted to be garbage by a DO student. These were not MY arguments. I mentioned them as arguments made by DO students. You assumed they were mine. You're down two points.

Twice in one thread on SDN and at least once by a DO student??? You're ignoring the point that you've taken this information and used it to build your own stance/argument. Do you really believe you're simply paraphrasing???

2) The rest of my arguments I openly admitted were from the viewpoint of most pre-allo students and "the layperson." If you read my posts, I mentioned several times WHY these people have a problem with osteopathy, NOT that their problems are valid ones. You didn't read, and you assumed I was attacking DO because of some personal vendetta. Three points down.

Okay, let's play the game your way here:

You: 'The majority of pre-allo students and the layperson think x.'

Okay, fine, that's not you're argument, you're just relaying the information.

My issue: like everything else you've said in this thread (whether you admit it or point a finger and claim it isn't your beliefs), you're making wild accusations based on a small sect of anecdotal individuals. Most pre-allos??? Really, you think SDN is a good representative of most pre-allos? You've surveyed them all huh??? Laypersons??? So now you've gathered data from the general public??? Or you've had this discussion one other time with a fellow pre-med buddy and now try to claim it as some great consensus???

I never claimed to have any inherent knowledge or experience that would lend my personal opinion of osteopathy any strength. This thread has consisted of people talking about DO's that feel the need to defend themselves. I was presenting the general arguments that DO's feel the need to defend against (and if you had read rather than reacted, you would have seen that). Four points down.

So you really want me to believe you came into this thread to paraphrase and relay information??? Are you serious? I'd probably take less issue with what you're saying if you would at least own up to it.

I truthfully find it hard to believe that you came here to simply relay information and play devil's advocate. Personally, I'm positive you've either a. built a negative opinion based off the same sources I scoffed at (anecdotal, SDN, opinions of a select few individuals, etc) and truly feel that way or b. these are your own personal beliefs (from whatever origin) and you've used the ole' bait and switch to avoid responsibility.

Maybe I'm the one making accusations now, but I simply find it hard to believe that you're just here to relay information. Furthermore, my whole argument is that this is poor data and that you shouldn't be spouting it period. If you have first-hand knowledge (a student DO who doesn't like the model, a MD resident who worked with a bad DO, etc) then go ahead. In fact, I'll shut up and listen. But until then, my argument remains simple: you don't know what you're talking about. No matter where the information came from, and even if it isn't your personal belief, it's rubbish and you shouldn't be propagating this drivel.

I have never trained in either model, nor have I claimed to "know what I am talking about"

Agreed.

Finally, realize that your response is EXACTLY the reason why these issues never get solved in the first place. You're angry because pre-allos exert a power-trip over osteopathy, so you respond by exerting a power-trip over pre-allos? Is that really rational? If you're angry about the debate and the ignorance of the pre-med community toward osteopathy, an APPROPRIATE response would be to prove the arguments wrong, not to simply state that pre-allos don't know what they're talking about. Because, unless you can prove that they are wrong and you DO know what you're talking about, then nobody believes you, and you just look like you're overcompensating. 6 points? Maybe.

Hmm, I don't recall claiming to be part of the solution??? Frankly, why not react this way to foolish information? Do you really think I'm going to change the opinion of some 18 year old kid with 20 hours of hospital volunteering under their belt (aka 'experience') and a proclivity to DO bashing on SDN? Do you really believe that a civil and logical response will alter that? Do you really think that someone doing research in the future won't be able to separate the foolish assumptions and baseless accusations because of my irate response?

I highly doubt it.

Furthermore, what would you like me to disprove? It seems like you already have an answer for everything (which I find ironic since you claim to be here simply to relay other's opinions, but not claim them as your own).

Ironically, your response was exactly the one that most people here were complaining they hated in the pre-allo forums. You aren't a spy for them, right? 🙂

Oh, and you lost between 5-6 points to baseless assumptions. If you're going to accuse me of being ignorant, at least be kind enough to do your homework on what I'm actually saying so you, yourself, are not ignorant to the status of my ignorance.

Take my response however you'd like. I've never once said that I'm here to logically disprove anything. Frankly, I've done that so many times that it's pretty well documented. Additionally, if there are any rumors, assumptions, questions you would like answered (I know I said not to be open ended before, but whatever), go ahead and ask.

However, keep in mind that my argument is simple:

You do not know what you are talking about. No one buys that you're simply paraphrasing, explaining what you've heard, or playing devil's advocate simply for the purpose of furthering the discussion. Additionally, you seem to nicely fit the mold I was mocking before and continue responding in pristine form. You can argue with me, play with straw men, etc, all day long, but my point remains the same ... until you have the knowledge, don't make assumptions - which, let's face it, you are doing.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Oh and Tinman ...

Just as a quick aside. I want you to know that I really don't mean this as some personal attack against you. Frankly, you seem like a smart kid and someone who tries to logically think through issues.

However, you just made a response which I felt fit the exact type of attitude I mocked earlier in the thread. If you really do just want to discuss some of the issues with the degree, the current state of osteopathic medicine, clarify things you've heard, etc, that's fine (it's just not what I personally think you're doing).

Again, I don't want to make WW III out of this, nor do I have the time to launch into an SDN tirade, but essentially ... my point is just that people who base their assumptions on things they read on SDN or anecdotes elicited from others AND insist on sharing their devout opinions with the interweb are lol. I didn't want to get into it anymore than that. If you don't fit that model, than I misread ... but never meant for this to get into some kind of character assassination.

 

[christina30]

i get the same impression. if i want a laugh, ill usually go to the pre-allo forums just because of how ridiculously sarcastic people can get. makes for entertaining threads tho 👍



dunno if u read gevitz book on DOs, but this just had me thinking about how much the osteopathic profession had to go through to get to where it is today (and even now, there are still many who don't know about the profession). at one point, they seriously considered just changing the DO to an MD degree

Off-topic for a second: Dr. Gevitz is one of my professors at NYCOM, and he is fabulous, fyi.

And I just felt compelled to post here, as JaggerPlate's partner in DO zealotry.

But seriously, chips on our shoulders? Maybe in a ridiculous place like SDN - where pre-allos and other fools spew absolute nonsense/falsehoods about osteopathy/the DO degree/DO schools in general.

It becomes exceedingly frustrating to have to defend yourself for pursuing a doctoral degree that will, ultimately, land you in the same position as your MD counterparts: that of a practicing physician.

 

[Tin Man]

Let me preface this response by stating that I have an exam tomorrow and truthfully don't have the time to thoroughly nitpick. Additionally, I don't know if/when I will ever comment in this thread again so make sure your response doesn't leave much room for my rebuttal ...

Your call. I understand the need to take time for tests. I promise I won't be offended. 🙂

1. I don't believe you (guess I get to make some 'baseless assumptions' as well)

Yeah. I suppose so. Believe what you want.

2. Your aura is undeniably pre-med annoying. I'm pretty sure you've authored an SDN blog discussing altruism and people 'bashing' you for 'not caring about the money.' Again, any cowboy here worth a damn just rolled their eyes - hard.

For what it's worth, you're now defining people "worth a damn", which isn't really any more valid than me defining the average "layperson." I betcha I know more laypeople than you do people worth a damn.

3. Nice with the point taking. Did you not get the 'freshman stats + summer research project' street smartz joke?? Too easy.

This was freshman addition. Statistics is at least twelve years out.

And the main content of my argument is that you don't know what the hell you're talking about because you base the entirety of your POV on the anecdotes of the < 3 (I'd presume) DOs/DO student you've spoken to. Can you refute this??? If not, then you have no base to argue with me. I'm saying you have no first-hand knowledge and therefore shouldn't be throwing your .02 cents in like an expert. Even if you're simply trying to reiterate what you've heard before ... yield when people with experience and actual knowledge say you're wrong (because you probably are).

Erm... I'm not throwing in my ".02 cents" (WAY less than a penny...) like an expert. I'm throwing it in like I'm NOT an expert. An expert would wipe the floor with everyone on this board. We aren't talking about arguing the awesomeness of the DO to the world. Just to try to quell some of the in-fighting on this board. Need proof? Read the very first sentence of the thread. The one where he talks about the opinions of the THREADS he reads. If that's the community we're talking about, then my representation of the average argument seen here against DO's suddenly becomes a lot more valid a stance to take.

Twice in one thread on SDN and at least once by a DO student??? You're ignoring the point that you've taken this information and used it to build your own stance/argument. Do you really believe you're simply paraphrasing???

Maybe you should take another look at the thread when you're done with your test, because I'm having a hard time following what you're trying to say in context of my writings. I was arguing that the arguments most DO students seem to use only serve to back up the arguments the pre-allos use, whether those arguments are correct or not. I'm not going to repeat those arguments here a third time, but if you read my original posts, you'll find them.

Okay, let's play the game your way here:

You: 'The majority of pre-allo students and the layperson think x.'

Okay, fine, that's not you're argument, you're just relaying the information.

My issue: like everything else you've said in this thread (whether you admit it or point a finger and claim it isn't your beliefs), you're making wild accusations based on a small sect of anecdotal individuals. Most pre-allos??? Really, you think SDN is a good representative of most pre-allos? You've surveyed them all huh??? Laypersons??? So now you've gathered data from the general public??? Or you've had this discussion one other time with a fellow pre-med buddy and now try to claim it as some great consensus???

Unfortunately, your confusion comes again from the fact that you aren't taking the original context into play here. I'm not talking about ALL pre-allos in the whole world. I'm talking about the ones here on the board, as the original thread topic was discussing. I don't feel the need to use that qualifier when I assume that the people I'm arguing against actually have read the thread closely enough to know what they're talking about.

So you really want me to believe you came into this thread to paraphrase and relay information??? Are you serious? I'd probably take less issue with what you're saying if you would at least own up to it.

I came to play devil's advocate, as I stated in at least two posts so far. No secret there. It's like being pro-life, but being frustrated at your fellow pro-lifers for using such stupid campaigns to try to argue their point. There's nothing wrong with trying to strengthen the argument by presenting the opposition's views. And I did so with completely open intentions.

I truthfully find it hard to believe that you came here to simply relay information and play devil's advocate. Personally, I'm positive you've either a. built a negative opinion based off the same sources I scoffed at (anecdotal, SDN, opinions of a select few individuals, etc) and truly feel that way or b. these are your own personal beliefs (from whatever origin) and you've used the ole' bait and switch to avoid responsibility.

Again, have whatever baseless assumptions you want. I can make the baseless assumption that I think you're not even a real med student, live at home, and eat nothing but Spaghettios, but saying that I believe that would do nothing more than to trash your image on these forums for the lack of a real argument. As it sort of looks like you're attempting to do to me. 🙂

Hmm, I don't recall claiming to be part of the solution??? Frankly, why not react this way to foolish information? Do you really think I'm going to change the opinion of some 18 year old kid with 20 hours of hospital volunteering under their belt (aka 'experience') and a proclivity to DO bashing on SDN? Do you really believe that a civil and logical response will alter that? Do you really think that someone doing research in the future won't be able to separate the foolish assumptions and baseless accusations because of my irate response?

Uh... so you're basically here just to whine about how angry you are and how everyone who disagrees with you must have absolutely no room to talk because we must all be biased, ignorant pre-allo pre-meds?

Mission accomplished. Good luck on your test. 🙄

Furthermore, what would you like me to disprove? It seems like you already have an answer for everything (which I find ironic since you claim to be here simply to relay other's opinions, but not claim them as your own).

Actually, now you're calling ME out. I have no reason to hold back. Me saying you're interpreting the situation incorrectly due to your apparent lack of attention to detail is all me, baby.

Take my response however you'd like. I've never once said that I'm here to logically disprove anything. Frankly, I've done that so many times that it's pretty well documented. Additionally, if there are any rumors, assumptions, questions you would like answered (I know I said not to be open ended before, but whatever), go ahead and ask.

The subject of this thread is the arguments that DO's have to make to defend themselves against arrogant pre-allos (and regular allopathic doctors, I suppose...). If you had nothing to say, then why are you here again?

You do not know what you are talking about. No one buys that you're simply paraphrasing, explaining what you've heard, or playing devil's advocate simply for the purpose of furthering the discussion. Additionally, you seem to nicely fit the mold I was mocking before and continue responding in pristine form. You can argue with me, play with straw men, etc, all day long, but my point remains the same ... until you have the knowledge, don't make assumptions - which, let's face it, you are doing.

🙄

 

[Tin Man]

Oh and Tinman ...

Just as a quick aside. I want you to know that I really don't mean this as some personal attack against you. Frankly, you seem like a smart kid and someone who tries to logically think through issues.

However, you just made a response which I felt fit the exact type of attitude I mocked earlier in the thread. If you really do just want to discuss some of the issues with the degree, the current state of osteopathic medicine, clarify things you've heard, etc, that's fine (it's just not what I personally think you're doing).

Again, I don't want to make WW III out of this, nor do I have the time to launch into an SDN tirade, but essentially ... my point is just that people who base their assumptions on things they read on SDN or anecdotes elicited from others AND insist on sharing their devout opinions with the interweb are lol. I didn't want to get into it anymore than that. If you don't fit that model, than I misread ... but never meant for this to get into some kind of character assassination.

Same to you. I can come off a little... direct sometimes, which I usually only catch upon re-reading my responses. I have no problem with a friendly debate, and even professionals fail to offend me.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Same to you. I can come off a little... direct sometimes, which I usually only catch upon re-reading my responses. I have no problem with a friendly debate, and even professionals fail to offend me.

Hahaha, trust me ... I can relate.

In my opinion, our problem here is that we are trying to argue two things that aren't really related and use them as ammunition against each other's pseudo related argument.

From what I can gather:

me: 'people who don't have the real-world knowledge shouldn't make assumptions, nor should they propagate anecdotes from a small subgroup of individuals.'

you: 'these are some of the issues that cause these types of tiffs in the community' (not saying you believe in them, participate, etc).

These two stances simply don't correlate well, and it's essentially come down to picking apart arguments and a variety of logical fallacies.

Again, as long as you aren't exhibiting the behavior I rally against in my argument, then we really have no argument at all. Unfortunately, you just became, what I believed, was an example of the stereotyping I was defining.

In hindsight, that may or may not be the case. However, all I can base that off of (for the time being), is your word, which I'll choose to accept 😀

If you really do have any questions or would like to discuss some of the issues which you feel create these arguments (for example, the component of OMM training in the DO curriculum and how it's viewed by those who go through it), feel free to ask.

 

[traitorman]

Off-topic for a second: Dr. Gevitz is one of my professors at NYCOM, and he is fabulous, fyi

thats awesome! i'd definitely like to meet him. tell him traitorman liked his book 👍

 

[traitorman]

(for example, the component of OMM training in the DO curriculum and how it's viewed by those who go through it), feel free to ask.

actually, how do people going through it really view it? especially in regards to cranial osteopathy and such

 

[NYDOC112]

Ok so for the admissions criteria this year...

MD schools average accepted student 3.65 GPA/ 30 MCAT
DO Schools Average accepted student 3.60 GPA/ 29 MCAT

Is that really enough of a difference to call it a lower standard? Its not... Each year it gets closer to equal, and this year in particular the admission standards were the same... Its always good to do your research.

 

[Superman DO]

I love my school, I love what I am learning, I love the degree that I will get in less than 4 years, and I love the profession that I am going in too. . .I'm sure any of my fellow classmates would feel the same way. None of us have a chip on our shoulder, nor do any of the DOs that teach our classes. Spend some time among DOs instead of SDN, and you will find out that it is about helping heal a hurting humanity rather than the initials behind our name.

 

[koennen]

Ok so for the admissions criteria this year...

MD schools average accepted student 3.65 GPA/ 30 MCAT
DO Schools Average accepted student 3.60 GPA/ 29 MCAT

Is that really enough of a difference to call it a lower standard? Its not... Each year it gets closer to equal, and this year in particular the admission standards were the same... Its always good to do your research.

Aren't these the average stats of those who applied to both MD and DO programs? If not, please cite your source.

If you include those who only applied to DO programs, the disparity would be significantly greater (i.e., the average DO stats would be significantly lower).

Always good to read your research carefully before citing it in an argument. 🙄

 

[Instatewaiter]

Ok so for the admissions criteria this year...

MD schools average accepted student 3.65 GPA/ 30 MCAT
DO Schools Average accepted student 3.60 GPA/ 29 MCAT

Is that really enough of a difference to call it a lower standard? Its not... Each year it gets closer to equal, and this year in particular the admission standards were the same... Its always good to do your research.

Now, I'm not calling you a liar but you need to show your sources. People in the past have called you out for what we will call, nicely, exaggerations of the truth. For instance, you have come up with such gems as:

Claiming your NYCOM classmates were "intern of the year" in cardiology at JHH. Considering not only that interns aren't cardiolgy fellows, or the obvious that no NYCOM graduate has ever matched to JHH med I think you might want to start citing your sources