Its just getting rediculous

[Walden5]

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We know money isnt everything in a career of this type but when raising a family, there has to be significant income. I did some research and the average family to be comfortable in a decent community needs about $130,000 total income between two people. Now, everyone has a different comfor level but with raises in tax, gas and morgage rates, the $50k a year doesn't cut the mustard. Doctors have rediculous malpractice insurance costs...why? Is it worth making $150-160,000 a year to pay $65-$75 in malpractice insurance? Doesnt leave you with much. Thoughts? 👎

 

[synapse lapse]

Dude the data you recieve for physician salary is after malpractice has been deducted pre-tax. In other words it is gross income, and physicians average around $175k/year. You can see various median income levels here: http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos074.htm. I also question how you arrive at a neccesary gross income of $130k to be "confortable" in a "decent" community. Since the median houshold income was $43k in 2003, and the mean was $59k with an avg houshold size of 2.57 (http://www.census.gov/hhes/income/histinc/inchhtoc.html) I question where you did your research. That is one provider and is more than even your inflated assertion of $130k as neccesary for 2 providers.

 

[AmoryBlaine]

Dude the data you recieve for physician salary is after malpractice has been deducted pre-tax. In other words it is gross income, and physicians average around $175k/year. You can see various median income levels here: http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos074.htm. I also question how you arrive at a neccesary gross income of $130k to be "confortable" in a "decent" community. Since the median houshold income was $43k in 2003, and the mean was $59k with an avg houshold size of 2.57 (http://www.census.gov/hhes/income/histinc/inchhtoc.html) I question where you did your research. That is one provider and is more than even your inflated assertion of $130k as neccesary for 2 providers.

👍

As I have said before, if you are an MD in almost any field you are going to be in the top 95th percentile of all earners in the US. Even a "lowly" primary care doc can fairly reasonably expect to make DOUBLE the mean household income. If you can't make this work, you aren't being smart. There are a lot of plumbers, teachers, cops, and nurses who work damn hard as well and they don't bank like we all will.

Yeah yeah I know, med school debt and taxes, ok. But even if you go $200k into debt for your MD you buy a degree worth 6 figures a year, find me a stock that performs at this level and I will sell a kidney and invest in it.

 

[Ross434]

👍

. But even if you go $200k into debt for your MD you buy a degree worth 6 figures a year, find me a stock that performs at this level and I will sell a kidney and invest in it.

Do you have to spend 60 hours a week working on a stock to get a return from it??

 

[Law2Doc]

Do you have to spend 60 hours a week working on a stock to get a return from it??

Not only that, but you don't get that return until after residency some seven years later. You still come out ahead, but when you factor in the time value of money, it's somewhat underwhelming.

 

[angietron3000]

Not only that, but you don't get that return until after residency some seven years later. You still come out ahead, but when you factor in the time value of money, it's somewhat underwhelming.

Seven years of doing something I love, even if I hate it at times, sure beats seven years of sitting in a cubicle! Bring it on!

 

[tiger_lily]

Seven years of doing something I love, even if I hate it at times, sure beats seven years of sitting in a cubicle! Bring it on!

Preach it! 😀

 

[skypilot]

Not only that, but you don't get that return until after residency some seven years later. You still come out ahead, but when you factor in the time value of money, it's somewhat underwhelming.

Here in Boston they make almost $50k. So you gotta figure that into the calculation. Plus often both parents will work. Marry another doc and you will be sitting pretty, even during residency.

 

[lilnoelle]

A family needs $130K to be comfortable? Wow. I thought my family of four was comfortable when we were making $55K a year.

 

[AmoryBlaine]

Do you have to spend 60 hours a week working on a stock to get a return from it??

Do alot of people work 60hrs a week and make a lot less than doctors?
Do alot of doctors work less than 60hrs a week?

 

[etf]

Do alot of people work 60hrs a week and make a lot less than doctors?
Do alot of doctors work less than 60hrs a week?

the local papers have calculated that you need to earn $120,000 to be able to afford a house in san francisco. so you'd need to net about $200,000 to live a upper-middleclass lifestyle...

 

[boilerbeast]

ARGH! Ridiculous r-I-d-i-c-u-l-o-u-s. Ridiculous.

ri-freaking-diculous.

 

[Radiohead]

Man, I thought when I started residency I would be living the high life without worry. I will be PGY-1 in July, and my wife is an RN working in the MICU at the same hospital. So, our total take home salary will be around 90,000 this year. That is not including extra shifts (her) or moonlighting (me). Granted we have a $1500/mo mortgage, but our budget is going to be pretty tight. I mean with buying furniture, knick knacks, whatever...it's going to be expensive. So, I think that whatever salary you make, you will always want more. And if you get married, your wife's taste will always surpass your income. Despite going overboard on our mortgage, I am thouroughly enjoying my 2200 sq ft house. Ah, the perks of having MD after your name. Just wait, you'll be there soon enough.

 

[SoCuteMD]

Here in Boston they make almost $50k. So you gotta figure that into the calculation. Plus often both parents will work. Marry another doc and you will be sitting pretty, even during residency.

Yeah, but I'd take 40K in North Carolina over 50K in Boston every day. 50K is great...but it really depends WHERE it is!!

 

[SoCuteMD]

A family needs $130K to be comfortable? Wow. I thought my family of four was comfortable when we were making $55K a year.

What a cute little one!!

 

[8744]

the local papers have calculated that you need to earn $120,000 to be able to afford a house in san francisco. so you'd need to net about $200,000 to live a upper-middleclass lifestyle...

Well, don't live in San Francisco.

Duh.

Hey, you can live like the Royal Family on $120,000 per year in my hometown of Ruston, Louisiana. I'm talking 3000 square foot house on two acres, on a lake, with a pool. We do have doctors there you know.

We lived very well on on $50,000 or so. We payed 115K for a 1900 square foot house.

You'd probably make more as a doctor in "fly-over" country anyways. Don't limit yourself and then complain that you can't make ends meet.

 

[8744]

double post....sorry

 

[skypilot]

So, I think that whatever salary you make, you will always want more. And if you get married, your wife's taste will always surpass your income. Despite going overboard on our mortgage, I am thouroughly enjoying my 2200 sq ft house. Ah, the perks of having MD after your name. Just wait, you'll be there soon enough.

Sounds like you are doing pretty good for a resident! 🙂

 

[BlazerMed]

ARGH! Ridiculous r-I-d-i-c-u-l-o-u-s. Ridiculous.

ri-freaking-diculous.

I've been wanting to say this for quite some time now.

 

[lilnoelle]

What a cute little one!!

Thank you 🙂

 

[chocomorsel]

Well, don't live in San Francisco.

Duh.

Hey, you can live like the Royal Family on $120,000 per year in my hometown of Ruston, Louisiana. I'm talking 3000 square foot house on two acres, on a lake, with a pool. We do have doctors there you know.

We lived very well on on $50,000 or so. We payed 115K for a 1900 square foot house.

You'd probably make more as a doctor in "fly-over" country anyways. Don't limit yourself and then complain that you can't make ends meet.

The house, the acreage, the lake and the pool!!!! Damn, Now that's what I'm talking about. The good old south 😉 I love it!!!!

 

[AmoryBlaine]

the local papers have calculated that you need to earn $120,000 to be able to afford a house in san francisco. so you'd need to net about $200,000 to live a upper-middleclass lifestyle...

You really can't extrapolate data from Ca to the rest of the US. Go live in Panda's neighborhood.

 

[InfraMan]

You really can't extrapolate data from Ca to the rest of the US. Go live in Panda's neighborhood.

Plus the extra money you can make from moonshine.

j/k

😉

 

[murphomatic]

Man, I thought when I started residency I would be living the high life without worry. I will be PGY-1 in July, and my wife is an RN working in the MICU at the same hospital. So, our total take home salary will be around 90,000 this year. That is not including extra shifts (her) or moonlighting (me). Granted we have a $1500/mo mortgage, but our budget is going to be pretty tight. I mean with buying furniture, knick knacks, whatever...it's going to be expensive. So, I think that whatever salary you make, you will always want more. And if you get married, your wife's taste will always surpass your income. Despite going overboard on our mortgage, I am thouroughly enjoying my 2200 sq ft house. Ah, the perks of having MD after your name. Just wait, you'll be there soon enough.

$1500/month * 12 = $18000 per year. With only 20% of your yearly income for housing I wouldn't say you went overboard on your mortgage in the slightest.

 

[velo]

ARGH! Ridiculous r-I-d-i-c-u-l-o-u-s. Ridiculous.

ri-freaking-diculous.

Yeah it's driving me nuts too. In general it's bad form to criticize spelling, but when its the title of the thread, just staring you in the face....arrrghghgraghg!!! I'm going nuts.

I know spelling isn't a top priority on these boards and that's fine, but at least have the decency to get your thread titles right.

you can edit that you know...

 

[LabMonster]

A family needs $130K to be comfortable? Wow. I thought my family of four was comfortable when we were making $55K a year.

👍

I find these comments to be interesting also 😉

There are a few things in life I find especially wonderful and cars, houses, and trinkets are not among those things.

The only "luxury item" I plan on buying later in life is a boat that I use on the ocean, nothing huge, but I've got to be able to fish on it and fit a kid or two and some dogs on the deck.

 

[LJDHC05]

You really can't extrapolate data from Ca to the rest of the US. Go live in Panda's neighborhood.

Not to mention that SF is one of the top 5 most expensive places to live ON EARTH. If you've ever seen a house in SF, the majority of entry level houses have a postage stamp lawn (3' by 3') and are butted up against the 5 houses that surround it for like $500k, not my idea of comfortable. It all depends on your definition of comfortable and where you choose to make your home. I can almost guarantee (sp?) that 99% of physicians are living a "comfortable" lifestyle.

 

[AmoryBlaine]

Not to mention that SF is one of the top 5 most expensive places to live ON EARTH. If you've ever seen a house in SF, the majority of entry level houses have a postage stamp lawn (3' by 3') and are butted up against the 5 houses that surround it for like $500k, not my idea of comfortable. It all depends on your definition of comfortable and where you choose to make your home. I can almost guarantee (sp?) that 99% of physicians are living a "comfortable" lifestyle.

Definitely, if anything that figure of $130k seems to be low-balling for SF...

 

[MossPoh]

ARGH! Ridiculous r-I-d-i-c-u-l-o-u-s. Ridiculous.

ri-freaking-diculous.

good to know I'm not the only one that gets bothered by that.

 

[mchou]

Man, I thought when I started residency I would be living the high life without worry. I will be PGY-1 in July, and my wife is an RN working in the MICU at the same hospital. So, our total take home salary will be around 90,000 this year. That is not including extra shifts (her) or moonlighting (me). Granted we have a $1500/mo mortgage, but our budget is going to be pretty tight. I mean with buying furniture, knick knacks, whatever...it's going to be expensive. So, I think that whatever salary you make, you will always want more. And if you get married, your wife's taste will always surpass your income. Despite going overboard on our mortgage, I am thouroughly enjoying my 2200 sq ft house. Ah, the perks of having MD after your name. Just wait, you'll be there soon enough.

so true so true!

And I agree with the other poster, 55K is just fine. it all depends on what you consider "comfortable" and to me I say, while I'm in my 20s, a little apt with my SO is comfortable enough! 😀

 

[BAM!]

Not to mention that SF is one of the top 5 most expensive places to live ON EARTH.

Sorry, this statement is just wrong. Don't get me wrong, SF is still expensive. Either you're exagerating to make a point or you're not very worldly.

2004
1 Tokyo, Japan
2 London, UK
3 Moscow, Russia
4 Osaka, Japan
5 Hong Kong
6 Geneva, Switzerland
7 Seoul, South Korea
8 Copenhagen, Denmark
9 Zürich, Switzerland
10 St. Petersburg, Russia
11 Beijing, China
12 New York City, USA
13 Milan, Italy
14 Dublin, Ireland
15 Oslo, Norway
16 Shanghai, China
17 Paris, France
18 Istanbul, Turkey
19 Vienna, Austria
20 Sydney, Australia
21 Rome, Italy
22 Stockholm, Sweden
23 Helsinki, Finland
24 Abidjan, Ivory Coast
25 Douala, Cameroon
26 Amsterdam, Netherlands
27 Los Angeles, USA
28 Berlin, Germany
29 Hanoi, Vietnam
30 Shenzhen, China
31 Taipei, Taiwan
32 Guangzhou, China
33 Tel Aviv, Israel
34 Budapest, Hungary
35 Chicago, USA
36 Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam
37 Beirut, Lebanon
38 San Francisco, USA

the list goes on and on. To see the whole thing, google "most expensive cities in the world" and click the first one - CNN Money or something.

 

[AmoryBlaine]

Sorry, this statement is just wrong. Don't get me wrong, SF is still expensive. Either you're exagerating to make a point or you're not very worldly.

2004
3 Moscow, Russia
10 St. Petersburg, Russia
14 Dublin, Ireland
24 Abidjan, Ivory Coast
25 Douala, Cameroon
34 Budapest, Hungary
37 Beirut, Lebanon

Moscow? Seriously, I wouldn't have guessed that these cities would be on the list if you had given me a week to speculate.

 

[Army_Doc]

I used to work 80+ hours a week.....while people were trying to kill me and my buddies. I made 33k per year (before taxes). I was comfortable.

___rest of comment edited due to extreme anger at the time of posting____

 

[AmoryBlaine]

I used to work 80+ hours a week.....while people were trying to kill me and my buddies. I made 33k per year (before taxes). I was comfortable.

___rest of comment edited due to extreme anger at the time of posting____

👍
Well said, I'm curious to know what was edited out.

 

[skypilot]

👍
Well said, I'm curious to know what was edited out.

Expletives deleted! 🙂

 

[LJDHC05]

My exageration was to make a point. I'm pretty happy living outside the 79th most expensive city and nervous about moving to the 13th most expensive city in the world. Jeeze, for an avid NPR listener/newspaper reader I'm pretty oblivious about everything going on in the world. I'm going to crawl back into my cave of oblivion now and shut out the rest of humanity.

 

[burlypie]

Not to mention that SF is one of the top 5 most expensive places to live ON EARTH. If you've ever seen a house in SF, the majority of entry level houses have a postage stamp lawn (3' by 3') and are butted up against the 5 houses that surround it for like $500k, not my idea of comfortable. It all depends on your definition of comfortable and where you choose to make your home. I can almost guarantee (sp?) that 99% of physicians are living a "comfortable" lifestyle.

I'm just being picky here...but the great majority of the housing, and the more affordable housing in San Francisco (Richmond, Inner and outer sunset districts, for example) have pretty decent backyards. You would never know it to look from the front, but try zip code 94122 on google earth. See all the back yards?!

But yes, agreed -- prices are outrageous. which is why I'll probably never moved back tomy beloved city unless I go into Interventional rads or something like that. Which won't happen.

 

[saradoor]

Sorry, this statement is just wrong. Don't get me wrong, SF is still expensive. Either you're exagerating to make a point or you're not very worldly.

2004
1 Tokyo, Japan
2 London, UK
3 Moscow, Russia
4 Osaka, Japan
5 Hong Kong
6 Geneva, Switzerland
7 Seoul, South Korea
8 Copenhagen, Denmark
9 Zürich, Switzerland
10 St. Petersburg, Russia
11 Beijing, China
12 New York City, USA
13 Milan, Italy
14 Dublin, Ireland
15 Oslo, Norway
16 Shanghai, China
17 Paris, France
18 Istanbul, Turkey
19 Vienna, Austria
20 Sydney, Australia
21 Rome, Italy
22 Stockholm, Sweden
23 Helsinki, Finland
24 Abidjan, Ivory Coast
25 Douala, Cameroon
26 Amsterdam, Netherlands
27 Los Angeles, USA
28 Berlin, Germany
29 Hanoi, Vietnam
30 Shenzhen, China
31 Taipei, Taiwan
32 Guangzhou, China
33 Tel Aviv, Israel
34 Budapest, Hungary
35 Chicago, USA
36 Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam
37 Beirut, Lebanon
38 San Francisco, USA

the list goes on and on. To see the whole thing, google "most expensive cities in the world" and click the first one - CNN Money or something.

When we in the US talk about "EARTH", we mean "US"! SF is still one of the top 5 most expensive cities on "EARTH"/US

 

[Jedix123]

I think that list is also adjusted to the average income of the inhabitants. Seriously, how else is Beijing and Shanghai near the top unless it accounts for the many many poor who can't afford to have a decent life in those cities. I have a nagging feeling that it's the same for Moscow and St Petersburg.

 

[tifa]

When we in the US talk about "EARTH", we mean "US"! SF is still one of the top 5 most expensive cities on "EARTH"/US

Oh yes, we can't forget...the united states IS the world!

 

[BAM!]

a quick excerpt from the article loosely explains the survey:

"Mercer conducts the survey to help multinational companies and governments determine how much to pay their expatriate employees. The survey includes 144 cities across the world, and measures costs including housing, food, clothing, transportation and entertainment.

So, if your company is shipping you off to Tokyo and you're negotiating compensation, you might remind them that a luxury two-bedroom apartment unfurnished might cost you $4,595 a month.

And you also might remind them that with coffee running at over $4 a cup, there is some risk you'll be less productive due to loss of caffeine unless you're adequately paid."

 

[OSUdoc08]

We know money isnt everything in a career of this type but when raising a family, there has to be significant income. I did some research and the average family to be comfortable in a decent community needs about $130,000 total income between two people. Now, everyone has a different comfor level but with raises in tax, gas and morgage rates, the $50k a year doesn't cut the mustard. Doctors have rediculous malpractice insurance costs...why? Is it worth making $150-160,000 a year to pay $65-$75 in malpractice insurance? Doesnt leave you with much. Thoughts? 👎

That is a primary care salary. If you aren't comfortable with it, then specialize.

 

[skypilot]

That is a primary care salary. If you aren't comfortable with it, then specialize.

The $150k is after paying the malpractice so it is gross before paying taxes. It is a pretty good chunk of change.

 

[DR. EMS]

The $150k is after paying the malpractice so it is gross before paying taxes. It is a pretty good chunk of change.

Darn right man! I'm just about sick of hearing everyone complain about only making 6 figures. What other profession can you go to school for and get out and know that 1 year out you will make more than 95% of others in your country (not to mention the rest of the freaking world). I think that if this seems like it will cramp someone's style they owe it to themselves to take their HUGE talent to the free market where they can compete actively with that other 95% of hungry up and comers. Seriously, many people have to do long years on tight budgets just to get that PhD or EdD so they can make $30-40k a year (ask your undergrad biology teachers). Everything is based on one's perspective and we all should stop and ask ourselves how much is enough.
just my rant for the day,
Dr. EMS

 

[tiger_lily]

Darn right man! I'm just about sick of hearing everyone complain about only making 6 figures. What other profession can you go to school for and get out and know that 1 year out you will make more than 95% of others in your country (not to mention the rest of the freaking world). I think that if this seems like it will cramp someone's style they owe it to themselves to take their HUGE talent to the free market where they can compete actively with that other 95% of hungry up and comers. Seriously, many people have to do long years on tight budgets just to get that PhD or EdD so they can make $30-40k a year (ask your undergrad biology teachers). Everything is based on one's perspective and we all should stop and ask ourselves how much is enough.
just my rant for the day,
Dr. EMS

*****THUNDEROUS APPLAUSE FOR DR. EMS*****

Great Post 🙂 I can't believe money is talked about SO much here on SDN. Granted, I haven't started yet (though I'm still close to 40K in the hole already from undergrad) but COME ON. There must be a few of us left who were serious when we said we weren't in it for the money? Not to mention... that's still a lot of money! Man, I think what my single mom did on a waitresses' income - we definitely weren't comfortable (at under 12K a year) but we didn't starve either. Why is it that we always want to live just above our means? Try justifying any of the crap we own to 99% of the world's population and see if it doesn't start to sound petty and selfish. I mean, sure, you can't save the world. But can you close your eyes to the fact that there are 2 MILLION people starving right now in Darfur? (Not to mention elsewhere on the planet... that's just *one* location).
Take a moment to count your blessings. We are SO lucky. Not just financially, but the opportunity to pursue our dreams! I came from a poor, single parent family in a small rural town, and yet with the help of scholarships and government loans, was able to pursue undergraduate and medical school. That's amazing! And it's rare too (compared with elsewhere in the world).
Maybe consider giving up $30/month to sponsor some kid in Africa or Haiti or wherever you want so that they can have food and get an elementary education. Check out www.worldvision.com or www.compassion.com or any of the other numerous organizations out there. It's not much, but it's something. And the more you start doing for others, the more you realize how much you actually have. Take the focus off what you *don't* have and be thankful for everything you *do* have. When you go about your day today, get clean running water from a tap, take a hot shower, use *anything* that requires electricity, wash and dry your clothes or dishes automatically, pick up food at the grocery store, treat yourself to an ice cream cone, etc - just remember how INCREDIBLY blessed you are. Seriously. Take a moment to be thankful. And maybe, just maybe, consider how you can use some of what you have to help others who don't.

Just my humble $0.02 🙂

 

[dbhvt]

Moscow? Seriously, I wouldn't have guessed that these cities would be on the list if you had given me a week to speculate.

I'm highly suspicious of the list as well, having spent quite a bit of time in Moscow. I'm guessing Jedix is right about adjusting for income.

 

[InfraMan]

I'm just being picky here...but the great majority of the housing, and the more affordable housing in San Francisco (Richmond, Inner and outer sunset districts, for example) have pretty decent backyards. You would never know it to look from the front, but try zip code 94122 on google earth. See all the back yards?!

Yes, but you do have to figure in the cost of body armor, security for your house, private school for the kids, etc.

 

[UserNameNeeded]

I think some of you guys are being too optimistic. The family practice doctor I shadowed last year had been out of residency for 3 or 4 years and she is so far in debt, that she's totally numb to it. She is not the least bit content with her financial situation.

In fact, nearly all of the doctors that I have seen who are content with their finances are the ones from another generation. They've been practicing for at least 2 decades and never had to deal with crippling six figure debt to pay for their education and training. They had a much, much, much better start than we'll have when we enter practice.

Yeah it's driving me nuts too. In general it's bad form to criticize spelling, but when its the title of the thread, just staring you in the face....arrrghghgraghg!!! I'm going nuts.

I know spelling isn't a top priority on these boards and that's fine, but at least have the decency to get your thread titles right.

you can edit that you know...

Maybe he meant it as a pun? I know I'm seeing red about being so deep in debt for so long. 😡

 

[OSUdoc08]

I think some of you guys are being too optimistic. The family practice doctor I shadowed last year had been out of residency for 3 or 4 years and she is so far in debt, that she's totally numb to it. She is not the least bit content with her financial situation.

In fact, nearly all of the doctors that I have seen who are content with their finances are the ones from another generation. They've been practicing for at least 2 decades and never had to deal with crippling six figure debt to pay for their education and training. They had a much, much, much better start than we'll have when we enter practice.



Maybe he meant it as a pun? I know I'm seeing red about being so deep in debt for so long. 😡

Key word = Family Practice Doctor = the LOWEST PAID of ALL doctors.

 

[YouDontKnowJack]

that's rideculous.