It's not too late to change professions...

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SaveYourself

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I have been seeing a lot of alarming questions on this website with reagrd to optometry as a profession. "What's the pay?" "What are the hours and benefits?" "Can I get in with substandard grades and coursework?" are many of the questions I see prospective students asking. Although these are important questions, they should have absolutely no bearing on your decision to be an optometrist.
I have been an optometrist with residency training for 9 years and make a six figure income with amazing benefits. I work 4 and a half days a week in a busy Optometry/Ophthalmology department and am ABSOLUTELY disappointed with my career choice. Like many of you, I wanted to be a doctor, was burnt out after undergrad and couldn't fathom going on another 7-10 year yourney. Optometry sounded like a nice respectable profession that would allow me to be challenged and make decent money.
It is my intention to shed a little light on my experience and hopefully prevent you from making a snap decision about your future. I also hope to dispel a lot of the misinformation and flat out lies being perpetuated by the optometric community.
You must first ask yourself " Will I be okay with performing 15-20 identical eye exams each day, 5 days a week for 25 years?", because this is mainly what you will be doing. People will not be coming to you for ocular disease unless it is a relatively quick to take care of entity. The reason? Optometrists are generally not allowed on health plans. They are allowed on vision plans, but what do vision plans cover? An exam and glasses or contacts. So, do you really think a person will shell out private payment after private payment to you when their health coverage will take care of it? If they don't have health insurance, how long do you expect them to continue to pay you?
The AOA has gloified optometry, filling prospective doctors with fantastic tales of ocular disease treatment and management of all sorts of visual problems. Unless you are in a special niche practice or an optometric college, you will be: 1. Doing annual eye checkups/exams, 2. Refracting, and 3. Doing contact lens fits. Period. Do not believe you will be managing glaucoma all day, dry eye, blepharitis, diabetic retinopathy or ARMD. You will not be. If you think you will be managing amblyopia frequently, you are mistaken again. The reason? Basically anything from the iris on back, you are not permitted to treat (except glaucoma in some states). Ulcers, dry eye and blepharitis are fine, but if you think these patients are going to shell out dollar after dollar instead of letting their health insurance handle it, you are mistaken. Retail is even worse; many of these patients just don't have the money for follow up care.
Second of all is the respect issue. If you are going to optometry school to shave years off and still have "Dr." in front of your name. Don't do it. You are not considered a doctor by any physician, nurse, health insurance plan or even the federal government. You are classified as a mid level provider. Guess who else are considered mid level providers? Nurses and PA's, and guess what? They go to school less than we do and get to do as much if not more than we do. The only people who will consider you a doctor are people who don't know the difference between an optometrist and an ophthalmologist. Other than that it is snickers and disrespect behind your back. You call yourself doctor, but can't even order a FBS unless you again are in a niche practice, working under an ophthalmologist, or at a VA. This is the truth and anyone telling you any different is lying to you or trying to glorify what they do. There is much insecurity and glorification in this field and I understand why. Imagine dedicating 8-9 years of your life only to be restricted from doing a lot of what you learned in school; Imagine being on the same plane as nurses and PA's and making less money while going to school longer. But hey, you get to call yourself a doctor right?
I understand many of you are at the end of undergrad with a degree that isn't worth much without continuing your education. I was in the same boat. If your original intention was to become a physician but you don't think you will get into medical school, beef up your resume. Consider out of the country medical schools, take upper division science courses and do not quit until you are in some accredited medical school. Once you are in, you can learn as much as you are willing. Do not take the consolation prize. For those of you who will have no problem getting into medical school, go to medical school. An M.D. opens up so many more doors than an O.D. degree. Research, administration, many subspecialties, teaching, consulting, you name it. Why not have more opportunities? An O.D. allows you to do a few things: Examine eyes, and teach at one of the 16 optometry schools in the country. Chances are you will not be doing a lot of research for a major comapny, or consulting for anyone. There is nothing worse than being 15 years in as an optometrist and wishing you would have gone to medical school. By then it is realistically too late. Make the right decision now.
I am so passionate about this that if I can prevent one of you from making a bad decision that could cost you up to 200,000 in student loan debt, I'm willing. If you are planning on going to ICO, be prepared for 175,000-200,000 in debt when your starting salary will be around 85,000/ year. That corresponds to bi weekly pay after taxes of 2200-2400 each pay period and 1,000.00 of that is coming right off the top for your loans. So you are left with 3800/month and haven't paid your rent, car payment or eaten yet. If money isn't an issue, then just make sure you will like doing EYE EXAMS all day long, becuase that is what you are going to be doing.
I haven't even gone into the frustration you will endure when you see so many other older OD's with embarassing diagnoses and lack of knowledge. It's not their fault, but you will be grouped with them no matter what you think. Think about how you will like refracting an 85 year old alzheimers patient or the anxious depressed personality who can't decide the difference between the choices you give them. Think about getting 20 minutes per patient and they show up 20 minutes late in a wheelchair. Think about poorly hygienic people on Medicaid that don't show for their appointments and don't appreciate the frre glasses they are getting from taxpayers. Think about CL patient s who show up for their CL evaluation without their CL's in. Don't spend your career trying to earn respect, becuase you will not get it from the people you want it from the most. Look into careers with a little variety, like medicine, vet med or do something altogether different. You will be much happier and much more fulfilled.
Finally, do not let the pressure of not getting into medical school force you into a career that you would not do if you could get into medical school with more effort. Although you might see money and benefits as stable, the truth is, private optometric practice is being crushed by retail competition. Last year, the % of optometric private practices that closed their doors increased by 35%. Employment outside of private practice is scarce and retail is an embarassment. Do you really want to go to school for eight years (9 w/ residency) and be working in a shopping mall next to Pretzel Time?? or putting your lab coat on at WalMart? or Costco? You will feel like a loser unless you have no self respect. People will buy a hot dog and then pop in for an eye exam; please think hard if you think you will be managing their glaucoma in that setting.

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People will buy a hot dog and then pop in for an eye exam; please think hard if you think you will be managing their glaucoma in that setting.

Firstly....try some paragraphs sometimes.

Secondly, would you mind sharing what state you are practicing in? Unfortunately, far too many people on here don't realize that optometric contentment is very much determined by state, and it has very little to do with competition or scope of practice.
 
First (not firstly), I did indent and this website fomatted it like you see it. Second, where you practice has nothing to do with the core of optometry (Refractions, fits and exams). I have no problem admitting what the job is, I just want other prosepctive students to know what they are getting themselves into. That's all. There is a reason Yahoo answers has a whole site dedicated to "Optometry Sucks". Becuase of the blatant misrepresentation of the AOA and optometric colleges alike.
 
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First (not firstly), I did indent and this website fomatted it like you see it. Second, where you practice has nothing to do with the core of optometry (Refractions, fits and exams). I have no problem admitting what the job is, I just want other prosepctive students to know what they are getting themselves into. That's all. There is a reason Yahoo answers has a whole site dedicated to "Optometry Sucks". Becuase of the blatant misrepresentation of the AOA and optometric colleges alike.

I strongly disagree. It is VERY state dependent. I have practiced in three different states and have been in the EXACT same position that you are in. I know exactly where you are coming from.

I now own a successful private practice and make a multi six figure income practicing optometry to it's fullest extent and enjoying as collegial a relationship with other providers including MDs as possible.

So again....please let us know what state you are practicing in.
 
I'm glad to hear you enjoy what you are doing. It is my hope that all people do and that is why I posted my thread. To answer your question, I practice on the west coast and realize that it isn't very optometry friendly. However, that doesn't change the issue of insurance plans vs. vision plans, what you bill and what you receive and the huge assault on optometry by retail and ophthalmology.

It is also too bad that you have to journey to a state in order to practice how you want to. Seems pretty restrictive on one's lifestyle to me. Sure you can go be a doc in OK, but do you want to live there just so you can do a YAG? Even though those guys could do YAGs, you should of heard the propaganda campaign against them by the AAO. Who wants to constantly battle for acceptance or seek havens to practice?? Doesn't that ring of a problem???

I just hope the AOA and optometric colleges stop misleading young bright-eyed students into thinking they will eventually be doing all sorts of medically related stuff becuase chances are, they're not.
 
I strongly disagree. It is VERY state dependent. I have practiced in three different states and have been in the EXACT same position that you are in. I know exactly where you are coming from.

I agree with KHE. It is very state dependent. But i also agree with saveyourself, that there is a lot of features wrong with the profession. If you want a lot of ocular disease you have to take Medicare and your state's medicaid programs.
 
I understand many of you are at the end of undergrad with a degree that isn't worth much without continuing your education. I was in the same boat. If your original intention was to become a physician but you don't think you will get into medical school, beef up your resume. Consider out of the country medical schools, take upper division science courses and do not quit until you are in some accredited medical school. Once you are in, you can learn as much as you are willing. Do not take the consolation prize. For those of you who will have no problem getting into medical school, go to medical school. An M.D. opens up so many more doors than an O.D. degree. Research, administration, many subspecialties, teaching, consulting, you name it. Why not have more opportunities?
I can tell that your intentions are sincere with this thread you've created to try and help people, but I don't agree with your advice about med school. As an aside, I think it's interesting that we see this motif so often: "Not happy with x health-related field? Should 'a done med school! Med school will give you so many fill in the blanks..." I just think it's funny that you said MD right off the bat...why not french teacher or sales consultant? Is a career in medicine really all that similar to optometry? Why, because you can do either with a biology major?? Seriously.

I think your point about reaching for the stars and getting your "first prize" career may be valid, but I don't think you catch the problem nearly soon enough to be truly helpful. Our society pushes children towards three careers: 1. Educators, 2. Lawyers, 3. Doctors. This pressure used to begin in high school, now it begins in kindergarten. We grow up and go through the education system without a clue what we really want to do, only which of the 3 categories we're leaning towards. In a better system, there wouldn't even be the undergrad degree that is worthless without continuing education—you know that. People end up having to make tough choices after going through college without a clear goal in mind, and the whole time they may not have even been cut out to be a doctor at all. I'm sure we've all met people in our freshman classes who were "biology pre-med" only because that was their parent's advice.

My wife and I are third years in medical and optometry school, respectively. I can see step-by-step exactly what my life would have been like if I had followed the medical route as you suggest. Luckily for both of us, I can say without a doubt that med school is a better fit for her, and optometry is a better fit for me. This is nowhere mentioned in your above post...maybe you meant to imply it, but you said so many other distractors that I don't believe you can really claim that you have the purest of philosophies.

What are your apparent job-selection tenets? First, redundancy: you think your job is redundant? There are plenty of medical specialties which can provide that same level of redundancy. Second, respect: You want more respect? Doesn't exist. The professional world is a circle of disrespect. Ask internal medicine doctors what they think of a radiologists, or surgeons' opinions of family practice doctors. Or even ask one ophthalmologist what he thinks of an older, less-competent colleague of his. Do you see a pattern here? There will always be snickers and disrespect behind your back, unless you become an astronaut or a ninja. Those are the only exceptions that I know of, and you didn't recommend either of them by name.

In addition, the statistics don't even support your recommendation. 1/3 of all med students will be clinically depressed at some point during their training. MDs have surpassed dentists in the suicide statistic. I can't even tell you how many students in my wife's class have taken leaves of absence from school because they're not sure if they want to continue—it's a large chunk. I'll tell you that my wife actually serves as a student interviewer on the admissions committee, and her advice is that if you're at all "up in the air" about going to med school, don't. It's my opinion that if you reach the end of your undergrad career and suddenly realize that your résumé isn't beefy enough for med school, you were never really planning on going there in the first place—just be honest with yourself.
 
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You bring up many excellent points and your argument is well written and well planned out. I agree with you about finding that perfect fit for yourself and definitely agree about indoctrination. Our generation's parents viewed physicians as walking gods and really steered children in that direction becuase of the respect, money, lifestyle and perceived happiness without really knowing much about the career. It was "Greener grass mentality".

It's good to hear some more insight about medical school from someone who is actually going through it. Your take on repsect is also accurate; I have physician friends who make fun of other practitioners all the time. I just want prospective students to know that OD's are really low on the "practitioner food chain" and to factor that into their choice. They might be surprised with how they are viewed even after all of the training they've received.

I guess a big part of my statement should be interpreted as: "You might be okay with it today; you might be okay with it five years from now; but as you get older, you might not be and with the debt and time invested, it might be really hard to get out. You'll then look at the degree and see that you are qualified to only do one thing.
 
It's good to hear some more insight about medical school from someone who is actually going through it. Your take on repsect is also accurate; I have physician friends who make fun of other practitioners all the time. I just want prospective students to know that OD's are really low on the "practitioner food chain" and to factor that into their choice. They might be surprised with how they are viewed even after all of the training they've received.

I guess a big part of my statement should be interpreted as: "You might be okay with it today; you might be okay with it five years from now; but as you get older, you might not be and with the debt and time invested, it might be really hard to get out. You'll then look at the degree and see that you are qualified to only do one thing.

Who cares about respect??

Facts:

1) Half the country does not respect the president.
2) Half the country does not respect the last president we had.
3) Half the country will not respect the next president we have.
4) Tons of people don't respect the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, including many people in the legal field.
5) Tons of people don't respect cops
6) Tons of people don't respect teachers
7) Tons of people don't respect lawyers
8) Tons of people don't respect the Pope
9) Tons of people don't respect Bill Gates
10) Tons of people don't respect doctors of all stripes. In fact, I would bet $100 that more people respect Dr. J and Dr. Pepper more than physicians, dentists or optometrists.


Never ever pursue respect from anyone other than yourself or your spouse because fact is, you won't be getting it from huge swaths of people. If that bothers you, you're destined for a lifetime of self doubt and misery no matter WHAT career you have.

Someone else pointed out that the only time you'll ever get respect is if you're an astronaut or a ninja. That's pretty much accurate. The only other people I can think of who were pretty much universally respected are Mother Theresa and maybe Tiger Woods. :oops:
 
I just want prospective students to know that OD's are really low on the "practitioner food chain" and to factor that into their choice. They might be surprised with how they are viewed even after all of the training they've received.
You bring up a decent point here, and students should be made aware of this fact as well as the factors involved in the situation. So it's good that we make these threads and have these discussions. For perspective optometry students, it just comes down to doing good research, talking to advisers and browsing forums like SDN, etc. You—and other experienced practitioners—know how it plays out in the real world, and I can see a little bit from my perspective as a 3rd year student with half of my friends being in med school.

I think it comes down to how small of a blip our profession creates on the radar of public perception, and the structure of our schooling (being almost completely independent from medical schools). Contrast that with podiatry (my cousin's career), which has almost all of its colleges attached to med schools. She likes to say that she goes to "Roseland Franklin Medical School," although she is in the Scholl College of Podiatric Medicine there—not med school. I wonder if anybody knows whether or not podiatrists get more street cred with MDs b/c they have more exposure/share more classes with them?

I think MDs understand and respect vet students, probably for the same reason we do: imagine having to master all the variations each animal brings to the basic anatomy & physiology that you learn on just humans.

Dentists are well respected because there's barely anything taught about dental care in med school, and the dental students themselves have a route upwards to surgery through med school.

I'm actually pretty clueless as to how pharmacy students are perceived.

I do know that most medical students are unaware of how long an optometry student will be in school for, but they learn very little about eyes in med school. However, there's the ophthalmology specialty, which is extremely competitive—up there with dermatology, radiology, etc. The MDs who didn't score high enough on boards to try for ophthalmology aren't likely to think an optometrist could possibly be better than the ophtho at anything. With most of our schools being completely removed from med schools, why wouldn't their students just refer everything to ophthalmology once they're out practicing? They know what ophthalmologists are—they do consults with them in the hospital all the time...what's going to bring optometry to their attention?

I've heard advice along these lines from time to time. Get involved in your community, do school screenings, maybe the InfantSee program, develop a niche specialty, write letters to MDs in your area explaining your services, etc. The point is to offer something unique. It's nice to see that there are studies out now lending more credence to vision therapy, as an example...
 
KHE, this original poster sounds just like you 3-4 years ago :p.

And I agree with him. I make great money in my own practice. I, however, am allowed to treat (and be paid for) most medical eye conditions including glaucoma.

But still, I am bored out of my mind after 8 years. Frankly if the money wasn't so good I'd have already sold my place and moved on.

I've tried everything including starting a second practice, teaching college classes, moonlighting at other practices for variety, bringing on an associate, buying all the lastest greatest "must-have" equipment, corneal refractive threapy etc..... Even doing all this, I feel like I'm using about 30% of my brain power. Seriously, I'm usually thinking about what I'm going to have for lunch or what show is one t.v that night while I'm going the eye exam.

The OP is right about the mundane day to day life of an optometrist. Sure there is the occasional exciting case, but still, even if you have the most medically oriented optometry practice on the planet, 90+% of your time will be doing routine exams. Nothing wrong with this. Some people really excel in routine work. Others, like myself, really enjoy a challenge. And optometry, for all it's good, is about as exciting as watching paint dry. But, of course, many jobs are like this (and they don't pay nearly as well).

One downside that wasn't mentioned is the enormous financial outlay required to have a modern eye clinic. This equipment 'ain't' cheap. It's easily another $150,000- $200,000 to have a serious practice. What does a PCP need? A stethoscope and a scale?

Any way you look at it, you are going to spend the next 30-40 years saying "which is better, 1 or 2". .........20 times per patient x 15 times per day x 6 days per week x 30 years = 2,592,000 "which is better one or two's" over your career.

Damn...............just imaging saying that almost 3 million times. :eek:

You will probably explain presbyopia 6 times per day or 51,840 times over your career :sleep:

And cataracts at least as much.

There, that's 90% of your job. If you can do that, you'll be a happy OD.:D

Oh yea, one more thing. I really helps if your a "people person". I am not but I'm a great actor. Your going to be in a small room with a stranger for 15, 20 or more minutes over and over and over. You'll be expected to make small talk and ask them about their children and their dog. It's fun for a while but after time, all the stories start to sound the same and run together. And the old people will want to talk to you for 3 hours but to pay the bills you will have to learn to shove them out the door within 15 minutes.

So I'd say being a real "people person" is perhaps the most important aspect of being happy as an OD.
 
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KHE, this original poster sounds just like you 3-4 years ago :p.

And I agree with him. I make great money in my own practice. I, however, am allowed to treat (and be paid for) most medical eye conditions including glaucoma.

But still, I am bored out of my mind after 8 years. Frankly if the money wasn't so good I'd have already sold my place and moved on.

I've tried everything including starting a second practice, teaching college classes, moonlighting at other practices for variety, bringing on an associate, buying all the lastest greatest "must-have" equipment, corneal refractive threapy etc..... Even doing all this, I feel like I'm using about 30% of my brain power. Seriously, I'm usually thinking about what I'm going to have for lunch or what show is one t.v that night while I'm going the eye exam.

The OP is right about the mundane day to day life of an optometrist. Sure there is the occasional exciting case, but still, even if you have the most medically oriented optometry practice on the planet, 90+% of your time will be doing routine exams. Nothing wrong with this. Some people really excel in routine work. Others, like myself, really enjoy a challenge. And optometry, for all it's good, is about as exciting as watching paint dry. But, of course, many jobs are like this (and they don't pay nearly as well).

One downside that wasn't mentioned is the enormous financial outlay required to have a modern eye clinic. This equipment 'ain't' cheap. It's easily another $150,000- $200,000 to have a serious practice. What does a PCP need? A stethoscope and a scale?

Any way you look at it, you are going to spend the next 30-40 years saying "which is better, 1 or 2". .........20 times per patient x 15 times per day x 6 days per week x 30 years = 2,592,000 "which is better one or two's" over your career.

Damn...............just imaging saying that almost 3 million times. :eek:

You will probably explain presbyopia 6 times per day or 51,840 times over your career :sleep:

And cataracts at least as much.

There, that's 90% of your job. If you can do that, you'll be a happy OD.:D

Oh yea, one more thing. I really helps if your a "people person". I am not but I'm a great actor. Your going to be in a small room with a stranger for 15, 20 or more minutes over and over and over. You'll be expected to make small talk and ask them about their children and their dog. It's fun for a while but after time, all the stories start to sound the same and run together. And the old people will want to talk to you for 3 hours but to pay the bills you will have to learn to shove them out the door within 15 minutes.

So I'd say being a real "people person" is perhaps the most important aspect of being happy as an OD.

Everything in this posting is true. I have been EXACTLY where the OP is now. I have endured just about everything he has described. I empathize COMPLETELY. But if I was still in his position after 12 years, I'd do one of two things:

1) Switch careers
2) Blow my brains out

Any job can get monotonous. Would you really want to spend your day scrounging for cataract and LASIK patients? Would you really want to spend your day doing lucentis injections and telling deaf old ladies that "there's nothing else that can be done?" Would you rather be a psychiatrist and spend your day writing out scripts for middle aged upper middle class housewives who are depressed? Would you rather be a financial planner for some company and spend your day worrying not about your clients portfolio but just trying to accumulate assets under management? Would your rather work as a tour guide in Yellowstone park and spent your day regurgitating the same story about Old Faithful?

In optometry, it is the "refraction" that gets redundant. I understand this. I too sometimes fantasize about the hamburger I'm going to get for lunch, or whether I should try to parlay the next time I hit a point on a craps table. But what is the end result of that refraction? A person who ends up seeing better. You have to take comfort in the fact that you get paid good money to help people see better. Maybe the method used to help people see better isn't the most sexy, but a person who sees better is the end result. That has to count for something.
 
I think many jobs can be fulfilling.
 
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I get bored out of my mind too, but like others have said, you'd likely get the same thing doing almost any job. The last time I went to my PCP it was for some moderate knee pain. He grabbed my leg, wiggled it a little, said I had tendonitis and gave me a script for Rx Aleve. My guess is, it probably bored him to death.

Whenever I start to get down about my boring job, I just remember the **** jobs I did in college and think I make more in less than a day than I used to in a 60+ hr. week. I'll take it.
 
I'm actually pretty clueless as to how pharmacy students are perceived.

Pharmacists and pharmacy students often round with us in the hospital, so we have some understanding of what they know. Although, in truth, its like you said about dentists - no one else is going to do the job they do so we just accept them and move on.
 
"SaveYourself
You bring up many excellent points and your argument is well written and well planned out. I agree with you about finding that perfect fit for yourself and definitely agree about indoctrination. Our generation's parents viewed physicians as walking gods and really steered children in that direction becuase of the respect, money, lifestyle and perceived happiness without really knowing much about the career. It was "Greener grass mentality".

It's good to hear some more insight about medical school from someone who is actually going through it. Your take on repsect is also accurate; I have physician friends who make fun of other practitioners all the time. I just want prospective students to know that OD's are really low on the "practitioner food chain" and to factor that into their choice. They might be surprised with how they are viewed even after all of the training they've received.

I guess a big part of my statement should be interpreted as: "You might be okay with it today; you might be okay with it five years from now; but as you get older, you might not be and with the debt and time invested, it might be really hard to get out. You'll then look at the degree and see that you are qualified to only do one thing."
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You make some interesting points in your posts and I showed them to my cousin who is a general surgeon and his comments were interesting.

1) Physicians have their own hierarchy and "behind closed" doors talk negatively about other MD's (not publically or in the clinic.)

  • General Surgeons feel that ER docs are "glorified PA's" because they don't treat anything, rather they "dump" patients on every specialty service in the hospital. (PA's are viewed as the proverbial "gum" on the bottom of the physician's shoe)
  • Family Practice is viewed as the "basement" of medical specialties because the statistics show that the lower USMLE scores and class rank individuals flock to Family Medicine.
  • Ophthalmologists (general) are viewed by other surgeons as not really surgeons in the "same sense" and as cry-babies who hate coming to the hospital "on call."------they hate being on call.
  • General Surgeons have the attitude "we can do everything the Internal Medicine Docs can do BUT they CANNOT do what we can do."------sounds like they view them as inferior.
Now when asked about how his colleagues viewed optometrists I asked him:

How many of them view optometrists as "Eye Doctors" and actively deal with them?
How many of them view optometrists as "Not a real doctor"
How many of them don't give a crap about optometrists and don't deal with them?

His answer to all of these was,"It is mixed."
He said," About half of my MD friends recognize Optometrists as primary eye doctors--hell most of them go to an O.D. for routine care---I do too! But the other half of the MD friends of mine either don't care or don't think much of optometrists. These are "behind closed doors" opinions though--remember that."

I asked him about dentistry and he commented," why the hell would anybody WANT to do that. disgusting. But good money."

Public Perception

The public (Joe Six-Pack) will never get it right.

2005 Coalition for Healthcare Accountability, Responsibility, and Transparency Survey (CHART):

72% Believe a Podiatrist is a Medical Doctor
70% Believe an Optometrist is a Medical Doctor
59% Believe a Psychologist is a Medical Doctor
56% Believe a Chiropractor is a Medical Doctor

This is after a century of the Medical Profession "beating into people's brains that MD's are gods and all other health care professions are garbage." LOL

People care about getting the care they need and want the care to be convenient, cost-effective, and quick. PERIOD

The "Golden Age" of the MD is over.......people want good "customer service" and look everything up on the internet.


All I know at my neonatal state as a 2nd yr OD student is the following:

1) I love what I am doing (hell ---I like refraction as well as eye health-ocular disease, pediatrics, etc....)

2) No matter what you do (vocation, career) there are going to be people critical of you and even some who will look down on you. Most people I know don't like MD's but they are not afraid to go to their optometrist.

3) Like KHE posted earlier, your self-perception is going to determine how you feel about what you are doing. ANY CAREER WILL GET MONOTONOUS ---another relative of mine is an internist and HATES her job. She describes it as "boring, and dealing with a lot of crap--like digging holes in the dirt, filling them in, and coming back the next day to find more holes and not enough dirt to fill them in."----LOL a real quote from her! My cousin who is a dentist says his job is fulfilling (no pun intended LOL--filling) on the one hand but VERY VERY repetitive---he has dabbled in real estate to keep himself from going crazy. Salary--$225,000 a year and he is bored.

4) If you handed me my OD degree with a completed residency (13 month in some area) in one hand and an MD degree with a completed residency (in family practice), I am grabbing the OD degree and running with a smile on my face. "Now if that second hand had the MD degree with a completed residency in ophthalmology, radiology, or neurology, I would have to think hard about it." --I probably would take the M.D. with the ophthalmology residency because I would have NO LIMITATIONS---that is just me being honest. (I do love optometry and support it 100%)

5) I am happy and privileged to be doing what I am doing. God has been kind to me!
 
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Very good points and it's nice to see that people can be honest without lashing out and getting defensive. I'm also happy to report that I've been getting quite a few messages from students asking for more advice on the subject. Many are on the bubble, don't think they are going to get into medical school, but still want to make a decent living. They have been looking at Optometry as an attractive choice and It's been good to be able to advise them and direct them to these responses from people in the industry. Thanks!
 
Very good points and it's nice to see that people can be honest without lashing out and getting defensive. I'm also happy to report that I've been getting quite a few messages from students asking for more advice on the subject. Many are on the bubble, don't think they are going to get into medical school, but still want to make a decent living. They have been looking at Optometry as an attractive choice and It's been good to be able to advise them and direct them to these responses from people in the industry. Thanks!


I still don't understand why students don't realize its probably easier to get into a MD/DO school than a optometry school. If you want to, go to the Caribbean. Still gets you a MD degree with all it entails. Just do some research people.
 
Getting into optometry school is as competitive as getting into a DO medical school:

2007 Data

National Average Matriculant GPA

DO School 3.45*

OD School 3.44

MD School 3.67

sources : ACOMAS, www.opted.org, AMCAS

I should know I got into both programs in 2006! LOL I chose optometry as the SURE and GUARANTEED ROUTE to becoming an eye doctor----I was not willing to risk it and it is shorter (4 yr OD school +1 yr OD residency versus 8yrs for Ophthalmology--good lord I would be in a wheelchair by then! lol) Optometry school is not pergatory for MD-rejects.....I saw my class stats and only 7% applied for medical school and ended up coming to optometry school. There was no other data available on whether they got in to medical school or not.....

Believe it or not MOST of the students WANTED to go to optometry school! And remember what Indiana OD said one time, "just because more people want to do something (get an MD degree) doesn't make it better." Optometry is NOT a substitute for medicine it is a very different program. I always warn students that try to compare them and tell them they are having dangerous thoughts! LOL No heart sounds, no stethoscope (only for BP in optometry), no tongue depressor, no EKG readings, no full-body treatment (full medical license), no full body physicals, no life and death (unless a patient has anaphylactic shock in your chair---EpiPen to the rescue!), no surgery, no invading of body orafaces, etc...... If the prospective optometry student who originally thought of medicine understands this then they will be fine. But comparing the two programs is like comparing apples to oranges. I like oranges.

My advice to the 3.5ish GPA student (denied by the MD schools) that is leaning towards medicine--apply for a DO school (they are easier to get into*, don't have the level of competition within the class itself (applicants not rated nearly as high as MD applicants were), and you can end up with the same medical license just not "as much" respect for the DO moniker versus MD. But so what. If you are leaning towards having a nice career helping people (without the glory of heart monitors racing and scalpels going cut cut cut) as a primary eye doctor (optometrist) then go to optometry school.....:thumbup:
 
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Why do so many optometrist insist on having this stupid OD vs MD school pissing match? It really makes it look like you guys have giant inferiority complexes.
 
Why do so many optometrist insist on having this stupid OD vs MD school pissing match? It really makes it look like you guys have giant inferiority complexes.

Bingo ! :)
 
Why do so many optometrist insist on having this stupid OD vs MD school pissing match? It really makes it look like you guys have giant inferiority complexes.

Because the MD students come over here to piss and they need to be set straight. If this wasn't a public forum I wouldn't even bother.
 
Indiana OD has it 100% correct.

Eyestrain, are you one of these OD's that laments what they do on a daily basis?---why didn't you go to medical school because you seem to defend their viewpoint more often than ours (optometry.) :confused: My post was not about an "inferiority complex" ----this is just a stupid (knee-jerk) comment that it seems everybody makes when someone is trying to show a factual statistical comparison (ergo admissions GPA's, etc) to Medicine. The fact is that the students that get accepted to DO Medicial school are on par with the students that get accepted to optometry school. My point is that you should be proud to be an OD and there are many other intelligent students out there who are going to be Osteopathic Physicians, Dentists, ect...that have similar academic attributes. I CHOSE to go to optometry school over Osteopathic Medicine, PhD program---as I applied to all three and got accepted to all three! BELIEVE IT OR NOT (drum-roll.....................) many students actually CHOOSE to go to Optometry school.....I know it is AMAZING to think. huh....:laugh::smuggrin:


(I am convinced that Eyestrain will argue against ANYTHING I say---- Oculomotor, "the sky is blue." Eyestrain," you must have an inferiority complex. Who cares what color the sky is." LMAO!
 
Eyestrain, are you one of these OD's that laments what they do on a daily basis?---why didn't you go to medical school because you seem to defend their viewpoint more often than ours (optometry.)

I love what I do. I love being an OD. I don't need to constantly remind everyone that I *could* have gone to med school or that optometry school is "just as hard" as med school. It's a stupid, lame, pathetic argument that only makes you look insecure. Doesn't mean you ARE insecure, just that you LOOK insecure.

(I am convinced that Eyestrain will argue against ANYTHING I say---- Oculomotor, "the sky is blue." Eyestrain," you must have an inferiority complex. Who cares what color the sky is." LMAO!

I disagree with you a lot because I think most of what you say is wrong, or at least distorted by your ranting and raving posting style.

BTW, as I gaze outside, the sky is a nasty shade of gray right now.
 
I like optometry. Like ALL professions...there are repetitive parts. But I like people, so I'm happy. I make great money. I have a good relationship with most of the MDs in my community...get lots of referrals.

However, optometry doesn't define me...it's mearly my occupation. I am many more things that just an optometrist.

I think problems will await those who choose a profession based on self-image and impressions on others. I really coudn't care less if the local ophthalmologist really "respects" me deep-down. I only care that I do my best every day.
 
I like optometry. Like ALL professions...there are repetitive parts. But I like people, so I'm happy. I make great money. I have a good relationship with most of the MDs in my community...get lots of referrals.

However, optometry doesn't define me...it's mearly my occupation. I am many more things that just an optometrist.

I think problems will await those who choose a profession based on self-image and impressions on others. I really coudn't care less if the local ophthalmologist really "respects" me deep-down. I only care that I do my best every day.

Well said.
 
Who cares about respect??

Facts:

1) Half the country does not respect the president.
2) Half the country does not respect the last president we had.
3) Half the country will not respect the next president we have.
4) Tons of people don't respect the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, including many people in the legal field.
5) Tons of people don't respect cops
6) Tons of people don't respect teachers
7) Tons of people don't respect lawyers
8) Tons of people don't respect the Pope
9) Tons of people don't respect Bill Gates
10) Tons of people don't respect doctors of all stripes. In fact, I would bet $100 that more people respect Dr. J and Dr. Pepper more than physicians, dentists or optometrists.


Never ever pursue respect from anyone other than yourself or your spouse because fact is, you won't be getting it from huge swaths of people. If that bothers you, you're destined for a lifetime of self doubt and misery no matter WHAT career you have.

Someone else pointed out that the only time you'll ever get respect is if you're an astronaut or a ninja. That's pretty much accurate. The only other people I can think of who were pretty much universally respected are Mother Theresa and maybe Tiger Woods. :oops:


Well said!!!:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

If I could give you a high five right now I would.


As far as hate groups on yahoo goes, I can bet you can google any occupation followed by the words suck or blow and you'll find something negative about that respective field.:laugh:
 
I graduated several years ago in Puerto Rico. All you say its true. If I had the opportunity to go back and study again I would do it w/o giving it a second thought. On top of all the things you mentioned I want to add that here in PR we finish up with the same loan debts as you but charging a lot less for exams than you. For ex. regular exam $35.00, contact lens exam $55.00, toric contact lens exam $75.00. so as you see here it gets a lot worse.
 
I graduated several years ago in Puerto Rico. All you say its true. If I had the opportunity to go back and study again I would do it w/o giving it a second thought. On top of all the things you mentioned I want to add that here in PR we finish up with the same loan debts as you but charging a lot less for exams than you. For ex. regular exam $35.00, contact lens exam $55.00, toric contact lens exam $75.00. so as you see here it gets a lot worse.

i like your name! :D
 
I think it's interesting how many ODs claim that they would not do things the same if they could go back. MDs are the same....always say it wasn't worth it. Do you think that the problem might be that ODs/MDs are spoiled brats?? I think so.
Just look at how the vast majority of the global population lives...many working 12-18 hours/day for a couple of dollars. They have no hope of an education...no hope of retirement....simply no hope.
And what's wrong with optometry? You get to help people, work short days, get paid well by almost any standard....so what if it takes 7 years to buy your dream car rather than the 3 you though it would.
Time for a reality-check people...the bell tolls for thee...:cool:
 
Never said it was a bad job by any means. Just probably not as great as I'd hoped. I've done everything from digging ditches to loading trucks to time in the middle east combat zone.

Optometry is a very hum-drum occupation. But that's good for many people. If you feel you could do well working on a factory assembly line...........then you'll probably thrive in optometry (and make alot more money).

You'll use about 20% of your brain after a few years (and about 30% of what you learned in school). And again, this is good for some........people that don't need stimulation or challenge. Or for those that like to day trade or email friends in between patients (you'll already have their diagnosis and plan before you even go in the room if you have a good tech).

But, fortunately, you'll make enough to retire early if your smart. Optometry is an easy job. Running a practice is the hard part. Dealing with stupid people is the #1 real headache (followed closely by crooked insurance companies).

Yep, no doubt, could always be worse though. I hear roofers get awful hot in the summer time.
 
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I just want prospective students to know that OD's are really low on the "practitioner food chain" and to factor that into their choice. They might be surprised with how they are viewed even after all of the training they've received.
I'm pretty sure there are many more OD's who feel pretty good about what they do and don't think OD's are really low on the "practitioner food chain" . :(
 
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I have been seeing a lot of alarming questions on this website with reagrd to optometry as a profession. "What's the pay?" "What are the hours and benefits?" "Can I get in with substandard grades and coursework?" are many of the questions I see prospective students asking. Although these are important questions, they should have absolutely no bearing on your decision to be an optometrist.
I have been an optometrist with residency training for 9 years and make a six figure income with amazing benefits. I work 4 and a half days a week in a busy Optometry/Ophthalmology department and am ABSOLUTELY disappointed with my career choice. Like many of you, I wanted to be a doctor, was burnt out after undergrad and couldn't fathom going on another 7-10 year yourney. Optometry sounded like a nice respectable profession that would allow me to be challenged and make decent money.
It is my intention to shed a little light on my experience and hopefully prevent you from making a snap decision about your future. I also hope to dispel a lot of the misinformation and flat out lies being perpetuated by the optometric community.
You must first ask yourself " Will I be okay with performing 15-20 identical eye exams each day, 5 days a week for 25 years?", because this is mainly what you will be doing. People will not be coming to you for ocular disease unless it is a relatively quick to take care of entity. The reason? Optometrists are generally not allowed on health plans. They are allowed on vision plans, but what do vision plans cover? An exam and glasses or contacts. So, do you really think a person will shell out private payment after private payment to you when their health coverage will take care of it? If they don't have health insurance, how long do you expect them to continue to pay you?
The AOA has gloified optometry, filling prospective doctors with fantastic tales of ocular disease treatment and management of all sorts of visual problems. Unless you are in a special niche practice or an optometric college, you will be: 1. Doing annual eye checkups/exams, 2. Refracting, and 3. Doing contact lens fits. Period. Do not believe you will be managing glaucoma all day, dry eye, blepharitis, diabetic retinopathy or ARMD. You will not be. If you think you will be managing amblyopia frequently, you are mistaken again. The reason? Basically anything from the iris on back, you are not permitted to treat (except glaucoma in some states). Ulcers, dry eye and blepharitis are fine, but if you think these patients are going to shell out dollar after dollar instead of letting their health insurance handle it, you are mistaken. Retail is even worse; many of these patients just don't have the money for follow up care.
Second of all is the respect issue. If you are going to optometry school to shave years off and still have "Dr." in front of your name. Don't do it. You are not considered a doctor by any physician, nurse, health insurance plan or even the federal government. You are classified as a mid level provider. Guess who else are considered mid level providers? Nurses and PA's, and guess what? They go to school less than we do and get to do as much if not more than we do. The only people who will consider you a doctor are people who don't know the difference between an optometrist and an ophthalmologist. Other than that it is snickers and disrespect behind your back. You call yourself doctor, but can't even order a FBS unless you again are in a niche practice, working under an ophthalmologist, or at a VA. This is the truth and anyone telling you any different is lying to you or trying to glorify what they do. There is much insecurity and glorification in this field and I understand why. Imagine dedicating 8-9 years of your life only to be restricted from doing a lot of what you learned in school; Imagine being on the same plane as nurses and PA's and making less money while going to school longer. But hey, you get to call yourself a doctor right?
I understand many of you are at the end of undergrad with a degree that isn't worth much without continuing your education. I was in the same boat. If your original intention was to become a physician but you don't think you will get into medical school, beef up your resume. Consider out of the country medical schools, take upper division science courses and do not quit until you are in some accredited medical school. Once you are in, you can learn as much as you are willing. Do not take the consolation prize. For those of you who will have no problem getting into medical school, go to medical school. An M.D. opens up so many more doors than an O.D. degree. Research, administration, many subspecialties, teaching, consulting, you name it. Why not have more opportunities? An O.D. allows you to do a few things: Examine eyes, and teach at one of the 16 optometry schools in the country. Chances are you will not be doing a lot of research for a major comapny, or consulting for anyone. There is nothing worse than being 15 years in as an optometrist and wishing you would have gone to medical school. By then it is realistically too late. Make the right decision now.
I am so passionate about this that if I can prevent one of you from making a bad decision that could cost you up to 200,000 in student loan debt, I'm willing. If you are planning on going to ICO, be prepared for 175,000-200,000 in debt when your starting salary will be around 85,000/ year. That corresponds to bi weekly pay after taxes of 2200-2400 each pay period and 1,000.00 of that is coming right off the top for your loans. So you are left with 3800/month and haven't paid your rent, car payment or eaten yet. If money isn't an issue, then just make sure you will like doing EYE EXAMS all day long, becuase that is what you are going to be doing.
I haven't even gone into the frustration you will endure when you see so many other older OD's with embarassing diagnoses and lack of knowledge. It's not their fault, but you will be grouped with them no matter what you think. Think about how you will like refracting an 85 year old alzheimers patient or the anxious depressed personality who can't decide the difference between the choices you give them. Think about getting 20 minutes per patient and they show up 20 minutes late in a wheelchair. Think about poorly hygienic people on Medicaid that don't show for their appointments and don't appreciate the frre glasses they are getting from taxpayers. Think about CL patient s who show up for their CL evaluation without their CL's in. Don't spend your career trying to earn respect, becuase you will not get it from the people you want it from the most. Look into careers with a little variety, like medicine, vet med or do something altogether different. You will be much happier and much more fulfilled.
Finally, do not let the pressure of not getting into medical school force you into a career that you would not do if you could get into medical school with more effort. Although you might see money and benefits as stable, the truth is, private optometric practice is being crushed by retail competition. Last year, the % of optometric private practices that closed their doors increased by 35%. Employment outside of private practice is scarce and retail is an embarassment. Do you really want to go to school for eight years (9 w/ residency) and be working in a shopping mall next to Pretzel Time?? or putting your lab coat on at WalMart? or Costco? You will feel like a loser unless you have no self respect. People will buy a hot dog and then pop in for an eye exam; please think hard if you think you will be managing their glaucoma in that setting.

I don't get what the big deal is about patients eating hot dogs next to your office. Seriously, I wouldn't mind.
 
Any job can get monotonous. Would you really want to spend your day scrounging for cataract and LASIK patients? Would you really want to spend your day doing lucentis injections and telling deaf old ladies that "there's nothing else that can be done?" Would you rather be a psychiatrist and spend your day writing out scripts for middle aged upper middle class housewives who are depressed? Would you rather be a financial planner for some company and spend your day worrying not about your clients portfolio but just trying to accumulate assets under management? Would your rather work as a tour guide in Yellowstone park and spent your day regurgitating the same story about Old Faithful?.

100% agree. Any medical specialty is going to have this problem - fact is most of the time you're only dealing with a small core group of medical issues, regurgitating the same thing over and over again. The retina specialist I work with right now complains about this everyday. Diabetes, macular degeneration, PVD, wrinkle in your retina, "you want to put a needle in my EYE!?"...wash, rinse and repeat x5days per week x52weeks x30 years. :rolleyes:
 
Look at his pattern of posting greeneyes, He's a troll that's just trying to be subtle about it. You have to wonder about what motivates someone who spends so much time trying to wind people up.

Then again I do the same thing to people on rival football boards :D. Troll on!
 
Look at his pattern of posting greeneyes, He's a troll that's just trying to be subtle about it. You have to wonder about what motivates someone who spends so much time trying to wind people up.

Then again I do the same thing to people on rival football boards :D. Troll on!

you're clearly an idiot.
 
I can tell that your intentions are sincere with this thread you've created to try and help people, but I don't agree with your advice about med school. As an aside, I think it's interesting that we see this motif so often: "Not happy with x health-related field? Should 'a done med school! Med school will give you so many fill in the blanks..." I just think it's funny that you said MD right off the bat...why not french teacher or sales consultant? Is a career in medicine really all that similar to optometry? Why, because you can do either with a biology major?? Seriously.

I think your point about reaching for the stars and getting your "first prize" career may be valid, but I don't think you catch the problem nearly soon enough to be truly helpful. Our society pushes children towards three careers: 1. Educators, 2. Lawyers, 3. Doctors. This pressure used to begin in high school, now it begins in kindergarten. We grow up and go through the education system without a clue what we really want to do, only which of the 3 categories we're leaning towards. In a better system, there wouldn't even be the undergrad degree that is worthless without continuing education—you know that. People end up having to make tough choices after going through college without a clear goal in mind, and the whole time they may not have even been cut out to be a doctor at all. I'm sure we've all met people in our freshman classes who were "biology pre-med" only because that was their parent's advice.

My wife and I are third years in medical and optometry school, respectively. I can see step-by-step exactly what my life would have been like if I had followed the medical route as you suggest. Luckily for both of us, I can say without a doubt that med school is a better fit for her, and optometry is a better fit for me. This is nowhere mentioned in your above post...maybe you meant to imply it, but you said so many other distractors that I don't believe you can really claim that you have the purest of philosophies.

What are your apparent job-selection tenets? First, redundancy: you think your job is redundant? There are plenty of medical specialties which can provide that same level of redundancy. Second, respect: You want more respect? Doesn't exist. The professional world is a circle of disrespect. Ask internal medicine doctors what they think of a radiologists, or surgeons' opinions of family practice doctors. Or even ask one ophthalmologist what he thinks of an older, less-competent colleague of his. Do you see a pattern here? There will always be snickers and disrespect behind your back, unless you become an astronaut or a ninja. Those are the only exceptions that I know of, and you didn't recommend either of them by name.

In addition, the statistics don't even support your recommendation. 1/3 of all med students will be clinically depressed at some point during their training. MDs have surpassed dentists in the suicide statistic. I can't even tell you how many students in my wife's class have taken leaves of absence from school because they're not sure if they want to continue—it's a large chunk. I'll tell you that my wife actually serves as a student interviewer on the admissions committee, and her advice is that if you're at all "up in the air" about going to med school, don't. It's my opinion that if you reach the end of your undergrad career and suddenly realize that your résumé isn't beefy enough for med school, you were never really planning on going there in the first place—just be honest with yourself.




I want to be a ninja now, LOTS OF RESPECT. lol


NINJA YEEEEEEEEEEE
 
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