it's official, IB > medicine

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Keep in mind average and median are two very different things. A few people with absurdly high bonuses can easily drive up an overall mediocre meadian.

But yes, some people do make a lot of money in i-banking. Not everyone tho.

I hate anecdotes, but I had a friend who went to work in i-banking, his division got restructured and he was out of a job. His total compensation for one year was about 70k, working about 100 hrs a week. All depends upon your risk tolerance I suppose.
 
The majority of the analysts will make $85k and work 100+ hours a week like mentioned above. The large bonuses go to the higher-ups. We're talking bonuses in the tens of millions of dollars. It used to be common to see the lower guys gettings $1 million bonus checks, but that was in the late 90s during the tech boom. Those days are over.
 
harold.jpg

WHATS IT LIKE BEiNG AN INVESTMENT BANKER AND CAN I GET A LOR
 
Doctors make more than investment bankers, on average. An earlier thread cited a CNN story, which noted that 9 of the top 10 paying jobs in the country are physicians' jobs. The 10th is CEOs, and the average CEO still makes less than at least 4 categories of physicians.

With the salary decline, I wonder how much longer this trend will last. Hopefully for a few decades at least...
 
Doctors make more than investment bankers, on average. An earlier thread cited a CNN story, which noted that 9 of the top 10 paying jobs in the country are physicians' jobs. The 10th is CEOs, and the average CEO still makes less than at least 4 categories of physicians.

With the salary decline, I wonder how much longer this trend will last. Hopefully for a few decades at least...

can you post that link?

I've seen this story recently: http://money.cnn.com/2006/06/21/news/companies/ceo_pay_epi/index.htm
 
The majority of the analysts will make $85k and work 100+ hours a week like mentioned above. The large bonuses go to the higher-ups. We're talking bonuses in the tens of millions of dollars. It used to be common to see the lower guys gettings $1 million bonus checks, but that was in the late 90s during the tech boom. Those days are over.

The majority of first-year analysts (exception: not operations) at a bulge-bracket bank make closer to 100k, including bonuses.

Of course, once you do your two or three years as an analyst, and move onto associate, about when most of us are rounding at 4 am as fourth-year students, the numbers start to go up exponentially. That's when I'd like someone to claim that they're in medicine, not finance, for the money.
 
My favorite thing about these discussions is how people throw around the idea of IB as if its as easy as getting a job flipping burgers at McDonalds. Those high paying jobs are just as difficult, if not more difficult to obtain than becoming a doctor.
 
My favorite thing about these discussions is how people throw around the idea of IB as if its as easy as getting a job flipping burgers at McDonalds. Those high paying jobs are just as difficult, if not more difficult to obtain than becoming a doctor.

I filled out an app for McDonald's but they told me my MCAT was too low =(
 
My favorite thing about these discussions is how people throw around the idea of IB as if its as easy as getting a job flipping burgers at McDonalds. Those high paying jobs are just as difficult, if not more difficult to obtain than becoming a doctor.

It's all about connections. If you don't have any, good luck getting in. I know at least for me, it will be MUCH easier to get into med school than land an IB/MA/hedge spot.
 
It's all about connections. If you don't have any, good luck getting in. I know at least for me, it will be MUCH easier to get into med school than land an IB/MA/hedge spot.

Agreed. Those 600k + jobs are virtually impossible to obtain as compared to jobs as a physician, so its completely pointless to even compare physician vs. ibanking

And yes, it is all about connections. Even if you do get to the top, it has nothing to do with acing school or some board score and everything to do with who you know and how aggressive you are.

IBanking vs Physician threads are just annoying to me I guess, because they don't make sense and are just pointless. The fields are way too different.
 
I work in investment banking, although not a banker myself, and have been there since 1997.

Bankers in NYC, that I have been working around, surely make more than docs and they have much better perks and working conditions than doctors do. They work late but are driven home. When they work late they get $35 a night to eat. On the weekend they get $75 a day for food. First year analysts are right out of college and making the kind of money many have quoted (80k). That would be double what we make a year once we are residents. I think some residents get free food, but is it the filet mignon these guys are eating every night for free? By the third year, if you haven't been weeded out, you are an associate or going to get an MBA (two years) to get into the big money.

These guys also are often hired as executive management by the companies that they are working for. In addition, they have the inside track (sometimes of questionable legality) on how and where to invest. Just a perk of being an insider. They know all the information. Their trading is highly regulated, but don't you think they still have an upper leg? I do.

The only way to have a comparable upside in medicine as many of these guys have in business is by...going into the business of medicine!

The bottom line, in my humble opinion, is that if you want to make an outrageous amount of money, than go into IB. If you are becoming a doctor for the money, you will be miserable.

p.s. As an interesting aside, a lot of the work for the analysts is being shipped to india to be done at a lower wage. The higher ups at the banks are cutting down on the size of the analysts classes this way, saving money on salaries and rent. IB is getting more selective and fewer of the higher ups will be sharing the pie. In the long run, it might be easier to become a doctor than a banker! Also, while not impossible, it is more difficult to outsource medicine.
 
Also, while not impossible, it is more difficult to outsource medicine.

I'm glad someone brought this up. A major downside to IBanking is that it can be outsourced much easier than medicine. I mean seriously, any joe schmo out of college can do an IBankers job, but not everyone can be a doctor in the United States
 
I work in investment banking, although not a banker myself, and have been there since 1997.

Bankers in NYC, that I have been working around, surely make more than docs and they have much better perks and working conditions than doctors do. They work late but are driven home. When they work late they get $35 a night to eat. On the weekend they get $75 a day for food. First year analysts are right out of college and making the kind of money many have quoted (80k). That would be double what we make a year once we are residents. I think some residents get free food, but is it the filet mignon these guys are eating every night for free? By the third year, if you haven't been weeded out, you are an associate or going to get an MBA (two years) to get into the big money.

These guys also are often hired as executive management by the companies that they are working for. In addition, they have the inside track (sometimes of questionable legality) on how and where to invest. Just a perk of being an insider. They know all the information. Their trading is highly regulated, but don't you think they still have an upper leg? I do.

The only way to have a comparable upside in medicine as many of these guys have in business is by...going into the business of medicine!

The bottom line, in my humble opinion, is that if you want to make an outrageous amount of money, than go into IB. If you are becoming a doctor for the money, you will be miserable.

p.s. As an interesting aside, a lot of the work for the analysts is being shipped to india to be done at a lower wage. The higher ups at the banks are cutting down on the size of the analysts classes this way, saving money on salaries and rent. IB is getting more selective and fewer of the higher ups will be sharing the pie. In the long run, it might be easier to become a doctor than a banker! Also, while not impossible, it is more difficult to outsource medicine.

Thanks for posting something that sums it up so precisely. For those who might be interested, the future of big $$$ in finance has nothing to do with IB -- it's in trading, especially proprietary and research. IB is a smaller share of the big bank profits each year. Goldman's top traders are rumored to be getting 50-100 mil bonuses.
 
I'm glad someone brought this up. A major downside to IBanking is that it can be outsourced much easier than medicine. I mean seriously, any joe schmo out of college can do an IBankers job, but not everyone can be a doctor in the United States

Yep. It is one of the first upper level white collar jobs that has fallen a victim to (US perspective) or reaped the benefits of (rest of the world perspective) globalization.

You guys have heard about the hospitals in Thailand, India, and others where people can travel to have non-critical surgeries performed by western trained physicians? The docs are from some of the best schools and practice there. The hospitals are like 4 star hotels and the price is much cheeaper. When are the insurance companies going to start flying patients to india to have non-critical surgeries performed?
 
Taking rich peoples' money and trying to get them more money. Now that is a worthwhile career.
 
IB is a smaller share of the big bank profits each year. Goldman's top traders are rumored to be getting 50-100 mil bonuses.

Didn't know that. That is so outrageous. 100 million could do a hell of a lot of good for a lot of people. A lot of countries even!
 
well that entirely depends on your specialty...clearly one cannot get over 150K with family practice...but then 150K would be 6x my current salary..so who's complaining
 
I'm glad someone brought this up. A major downside to IBanking is that it can be outsourced much easier than medicine. I mean seriously, any joe schmo out of college can do an IBankers job, but not everyone can be a doctor in the United States

thats what us indians are good at...using outsourcing as a means to increase the gap even further between the rich and the poor of india...yea...😕
 
I'm glad someone brought this up. A major downside to IBanking is that it can be outsourced much easier than medicine. I mean seriously, any joe schmo out of college can do an IBankers job, but not everyone can be a doctor in the United States

Definitely. One field of medicine that is being somewhat outsourced is radiology. I know the night-shift at a hospital in Tallahassee has their work done (I think) in Singapore if not another country around them.

Some other places here in FL outsource some of their work across State lines, but I don't think that will be happening THAT much. Still lots of gov't restrictions in place on who can do what and where and so forth.
 
I actually thought the thread was refering to "International Baccalaureate" for IB.

Oh Highschool.
 
I worked as a banker for two years at Goldman Sachs - the firm that the article is about. 1st year compensation was $110k (that's right - I was 22 years old) and 2nd year was $140. I anticipate that now, a couple of years later, it's more like $130 for 1st year and $160 for 2nd year if you do well, which I did. By age 30 you can be making $1 million a year. By age 40, $5 million/yr. Whoever said that doctors make more is wrong. Yes, it's narrow at the top (ie not many bankers compared to lots of docs), but if you are smart, motivated, and a little lucky you can be very wealthy as a banker.

Lifestyle of banking sucks in terms of hours and personal time, but it was also very very exciting. We used to joke that 1st class was for the commoners - we much preferred corporate jets. Anyone seriously interested in financial markets (not me) and making a lot of money (only me to a certain extent) I would encourage to check out banking. A bulge-bracket firm is a great place to see the world. On the other hand, so is a hospital. I'm a life-experience kind of guy. For 2 years banking was great, but I find life/death/health/sickness more interesting than making money for shareholders, which is what bankers do. I work at a children's hospital now, and it is the greatest place to work ever - hardly even work. Banking was always work.

Anyone seriously considering banking over medicine should PM me. I have spent a lot of time thinking/talking about it.


well again....people who are into medicine as a means to make money...well they're just in for the wrong reasons. Medicine is a respectable career, but should never be mistaken for lots of money...its more of a means to get us out of debt after spending all that money in med school and malpractice. I chose medicine over money and DAMN proud of it!
 
Taking rich peoples' money and trying to get them more money. Now that is a worthwhile career.

That is so outrageous. 100 million could do a hell of a lot of good for a lot of people. A lot of countries even!

Oh, nice. A socialist's convention. Cool.
 
Hi everyone,
I was an i-banking analyst (did M&A and all that garbage) and will be going to med school in august. My father is a physician, so I can speak pretty well for both sides. To do I-banking means that you have to sell your soul, if you have one... there is no question about this. this job is exclusively for money, and NO OTHER REASON. if you don't have a soul, it's a great job... the hours dwindle down as you get older and the money is ridiculous. you have the chance to go to private equity and hedge funds, where you can make even more money.

what i realized is that i actually have a soul and that i couldn't be bought, and that helping people would be the best job. sure, doctors' salaries do not come close to new york i-banking salaries (this is a fact, trust me - unless there is a drastic financial downturn and bonuses don;t come, which is highly unlikely). having worked in ibanking and been able to interview while i was working at the bank, i came to realize how lucky those doctors that i saw actually were. i got to interview with 80+ year old docs (the ones with bowties, who are very endearing) who absolutely wouldnt give up there job for anything. i dare you to come to an investment bank more than a handful of bankers over 50, forget about 60. anyway, ive exhausted myself on this board... if you feel like making money is the most important, the MD route probably isnt the best, cuz im sure you are smart enough to land one of these jobs (and its not about connections - i sure as hell didnt have any).
 
I actually thought the thread was refering to "International Baccalaureate" for IB.

Oh Highschool.

lol, so did I! But as for Investment Banking, sure you'll make oodles of money but money doesn't equal happiness, at least not for me. Yes, it's a cliche but that's cuz it's true.
 
I worked as a banker for two years at Goldman Sachs - the firm that the article is about. 1st year compensation was $110k (that's right - I was 22 years old) and 2nd year was $140. I anticipate that now, a couple of years later, it's more like $130 for 1st year and $160 for 2nd year if you do well, which I did. By age 30 you can be making $1 million a year. By age 40, $5 million/yr. Whoever said that doctors make more is wrong. Yes, it's narrow at the top (ie not many bankers compared to lots of docs), but if you are smart, motivated, and a little lucky you can be very wealthy as a banker.

Lifestyle of banking sucks in terms of hours and personal time, but it was also very very exciting. We used to joke that 1st class was for the commoners - we much preferred corporate jets. Anyone seriously interested in financial markets (not me) and making a lot of money (only me to a certain extent) I would encourage to check out banking. A bulge-bracket firm is a great place to see the world. On the other hand, so is a hospital. I'm a life-experience kind of guy. For 2 years banking was great, but I find life/death/health/sickness more interesting than making money for shareholders, which is what bankers do. I work at a children's hospital now, and it is the greatest place to work ever - hardly even work. Banking was always work.

Anyone seriously considering banking over medicine should PM me. I have spent a lot of time thinking/talking about it.

Actually the bonuses should be a little bigger than what you got, so 1st years can expect almost $160K already.

But that's mostly just because it's been a record year for pretty much all the investment banks on wall street, so the bonuses are far higher than usual.

Anyways, I would like to point out that doctors would continue to make money even in a much more bearish market, whereas uhh...your bonus goes poof on wall street in a bad year.
 
thats what us indians are good at...using outsourcing as a means to increase the gap even further between the rich and the poor of india...yea...😕

Your solution is to not take the jobs and have everyone be poor? Is it better to have everyone equally poor versus having the development of something that resembles a middle class?
 
And proud of it!

Medicine does carry the luxury of being one of the only professions where a person can make a reasonable amount of money without even having the foggiest idea about fundamental economics. The other job with this luxury is politician.🙄
 
Actually the bonuses should be a little bigger than what you got, so 1st years can expect almost $160K already.

But that's mostly just because it's been a record year for pretty much all the investment banks on wall street, so the bonuses are far higher than usual.

Anyways, I would like to point out that doctors would continue to make money even in a much more bearish market, whereas uhh...your bonus goes poof on wall street in a bad year.

Most analysts are on a July bonus schedule, so they're looking sad-eyed at the associates, VPs, and MDs who are loudly picking out their Porsches. 1st year i-bankers might be pulling in 160k, but they're a pretty small slice of the firm these days. You're completely right about volatility, though. 😉

I'm not trying to defend banking (I'm obviously not considering it), but the person who talked about longetivity in medicine vs banking might want, for fairness' sake, to point out the two reasons why you rarely see the 50+ in high-powered finance: 1) they've downgraded to a slower pace (and still make more of a salary than we will), or 2) they've already made their 100 million and are sunning themselves on their private island. It might be one of the few career paths in which 30 years old is considered old, and 40 positively decrepit.
 
Didn't know that. That is so outrageous. 100 million could do a hell of a lot of good for a lot of people. A lot of countries even!

Most of that money is re-invested in the form of stocks/real estate/etc.

It's not like they have hundreds of millions of dollars in a shoebox under their bed.

In all honesty, if they all decided to liquidate those assets at the same time, our national economy would collapse almost instantly.

So even if they weren't there, it's not like we could just give that money away to foreign countries to spend.
 
my business major friends sure must be stupid since most jobs they are looking at in investment banking firms are starting 30-40k.

the take home message is that in whatever profession you decide to go into, there is going to be the potential to earn big bucks (yes, even medicine). You just have to be in the right place at the right time with the right skills. Superb intelligence and motivation are very helpful.
 
whats the big deal? A lot of other professions now make more than doctors.
 
Your solution is to not take the jobs and have everyone be poor? Is it better to have everyone equally poor versus having the development of something that resembles a middle class?

That really depends.

Let's say everybody has wealth from a scale of 1-10. Let's say if you have wealth below 2, you die from starvation and homelessness.

What if the national average of wealth is less than 2? If you invoke communism (everybody be equally poor) then everybody dies.

If you let 10% of people gain most of the country's wealth, then 10% live and 90% die.

Neither good propositions, but then again the country as a whole probably wasn't doing so well to start with😛
 
my business major friends sure must be stupid since most jobs they are looking at in investment banking firms are starting 30-40k.

That is an accurate assessment... of your friends, that is. Most of my friends who are going into consulting are getting 60k starting. The rest who are going into iBanking are getting ~60k starting + 60k+ bonus.

Then again it also depends on WHERE the investment banks are located, but I didn't think too many were out of the main-stream cities.
 
Most analysts are on a July bonus schedule, so they're looking sad-eyed at the associates, VPs, and MDs who are loudly picking out their Porsches. 1st year i-bankers might be pulling in 160k, but they're a pretty small slice of the firm these days. You're completely right about volatility, though. 😉

I'm not trying to defend banking (I'm obviously not considering it), but the person who talked about longetivity in medicine vs banking might want, for fairness' sake, to point out the two reasons why you rarely see the 50+ in high-powered finance: 1) they've downgraded to a slower pace (and still make more of a salary than we will), or 2) they've already made their 100 million and are sunning themselves on their private island. It might be one of the few career paths in which 30 years old is considered old, and 40 positively decrepit.

I'm fully aware that they are retired and have plenty of money to do whatever they want after 50 years old. My point is that the reason we see 80+ year old doctors is because they love what they do and they'd rather keep being a doctor than do nothing. I have had many older bankers come up to me and tell me (knowing I'm going to med school) that they wish they had done something they enjoyed (or something that benefited other people), but that they had become so involved in the business that they forgot about what make them happy.
 
Your solution is to not take the jobs and have everyone be poor? Is it better to have everyone equally poor versus having the development of something that resembles a middle class?

agreed. I'm not sure where her economics are coming from. Said jobs are a way for the poor to become un-poor as long as India keeps its meritocratic economics that it's had recently.
 
I think the handful of people on here who are largely doing it for the money can't stomach the idea that perhaps they perhaps miscalculated. :laugh:

maybe they ought to sticky a thread that says "no money in medicine these days"
 
maybe they ought to sticky a thread that says "no money in medicine these days"
Sheesh, I don't understand you guys. Did you all come from rich families or something? Becoming a doctor likely puts in you the top 5% or higher of American incomes. Most people would kill to make that kind of money!
 
Sheesh, I don't understand you guys. Did you all come from rich families or something? Becoming a doctor likely puts in you the top 5% or higher of American incomes. Most people would kill to make that kind of money!

Have you ever heard the words delining wages? That whole top 5% is not going to hold up for another 3 years.
 
Have you ever heard the words delining wages? That whole top 5% is not going to hold up for another 3 years.

uh oh! my 400k salary is soon only going to be 200k a year!? better get out the "WHAAAAMBULANCE!"

wahmbulance.jpg
 
uh oh! my 400k salary is soon only going to be 200k a year!? better get out the "WHAAAAMBULANCE!"

wahmbulance.jpg

did you see the kind of battle that was fought to prevent the 5% medicare cuts(26% for some specialty procedures) last week? How long do you think it is going to hold up before they start slashing that stuff in chunks. So like I said medicine is well on it's way out of that top 5% bracket.
 
You know, when I started this thread this morning I had a feeling it was destined to actually fill at least one page. Thanks for making my dreams come true everyone! (in an effort to break my new personal best, maybe I should start an AA thread tomorrow)

To all those who are on the fence about applying or are underclassmen, I offer you this advice: if money and cream colored couches are what you seek, doing actual work is not the way to get it. I firmly believe that no one will ever again make money in this country by doing actual work. The only way to make the big bucks is to 1) provide useless services to rich people, or 2) like the people in this article, make rich people more rich.

I would like to conclude by reminding everyone that I have no qualifications to make any of these claims. 😉
 
Wages aren't declining that much, especially in specialty fields (some are even increasing). Couple that to the expected shortage in physicians, and I doubt we're going to be lining up for bread. These are also household numbers, so if your wife works, you're still likely on the very high end of the spectrum.

My point was not whether you're in the top 5% or the top 10%, it's that physician salaries are and likely will remain very high in comparison to the rest of America (and especially the world) for quite awhile in the absence of some huge change in the healthcare system. You may not be a millionaire, but you'll be doing a lot better than most and probably "rich" by many standards.

Median household income: $47,000
Income for one primary care physician: >$100,000

Quit whining.
 
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