I've lost the desire to impress

[DrDude]

As the title says. I no longer try to impress my attendings and residents during rotations. You know what I mean. I can almost feel the other students waiting in anticipation and jump like wolves after their prey to be the first to answer every pimp question thrown out there, they ask their own questions that are actually thinly disguised ways of showing off what they've read ("Last night I was reading about X and I was wondering if you could clarify..."), they constantly ask to do anything the residents needs including scut work, etc.

But not me. If I get asked a pimp question I answer it. If I get asked to do something I'm more than happy to help out the team. I guess I'm getting tired of what I feel is a big old act to impress, to one-up the other students.

Lately I get the feeling the team has basically "given up" on me because of this. The attending doesn't even address anymore pimp questions to me during rounds and the residents rarely ask me to do anything to help them out.

Anybody else have a similar situation? It's not that I don't enjoy rotations, it's just that I'm not playing what I feel is a phony game.

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[Law2Doc]

it's just that I'm not playing what I feel is a phony game.

Having a career is about playing this "phony game". You should be aspiring to be a star until at least a decade post-residency, at which point you will be that star. You are probably not looking at this the right way.

 

[DrDude]

Having a career is about playing this "phony game". You should be aspiring to be a star until at least a decade post-residency, at which point you will be that star. You are probably not looking at this the right way.

meh. Who set this arbitrary timeline of a decade post-residency when you can stop playing the phony game? Why not two decades, or three? And can you really stop playing when you've become the "star" whatever number of years post-residency, or will you just be playing a different type of game then?

I dunno, sometimes I take a step back on the wards and take it all in...all the students running around like chickens with their heads cut off trying to impress people up the food chain, people who were once playing the same game themselves. Like a revolving door of people trying to impress each other. Something so fake about it.

 

[Blade28]

Having a career is about playing this "phony game". You should be aspiring to be a star until at least a decade post-residency, at which point you will be that star. You are probably not looking at this the right way.

As cynical and jaded as this sounds, unfortunately this statement is absolutely true.

It's not until you're several years into being an attending (and are thus no longer considered a "junior attending") that you can ease up on the politicking. Notice that this never truly goes away, though.

 

[UndeadHeart]

I think people try even in fourth year to answer pimp questions, on an elective that I don't care about the grade I still answer pimp questions and most are interesting anyway, it is really just a game that attendings play to make the job of taking care of patients interesting from a medical factoid point of view, something to do between real patient care, if you look at it like a game then you have fun playing, if you think they are trying to figure out how much you know then you clam up and they don't have fun and you sort of pre-ordain a bad grade I guess. From my experience most pimp questions are important, what is arcane medical trivia as a third year med student is an well-known fact to a resident which they use to take care of patients. It is like a bunch of sports fans sitting around talking about the players or teams, so if you don't do this you are assumed you aren't into sports (substitute medicine and you can why your team may be irritated with you!) I read new england journal in my spare time, so if I ask an attending about this or that article I read the other day it is the same thing as talking about what baseballl or football player x is doing with team y, same setup, you have to feel more natural about conversing about medicine with the pro's

 

[Law2Doc]

I think people try even in fourth year to answer pimp questions,

And long beyond that. I got to watch an attending pimp a bunch of fellows today. They all made good faith attempts to answer.

 

[Law2Doc]

meh. Who set this arbitrary timeline of a decade post-residency when you can stop playing the phony game? Why not two decades, or three?

OK three. I was trying to cut you a break with my arbitrary numbers. Truth of the matter is you need to find something that keeps the drive going for as long as it is sustainable if you want to be successful in a career such as medicine (or really any professional career). If you aren't willing to do what is necessary to earn decent evals, you are in for a world of frustration when that same lack of effort down the road means the difference in raises, promotions, etc. This is the program you signed on for. If you don't want to play the game, you lose the game.

 

[haveaniceday]

Dr. Dude,
I agree with you. I also agree with some of what the others are saying wrt having to politic throughout your career. That said, this is the place to come to vent, so let it out. I find it hard to try to impress people who don't impress me (just because someone went to med school 3-5 years before I did does not earn insta-awe from me). Of course, I "respect" these people inasmuch as they are legitimately teaching me something and I need them...and they get my respect and politeness while we work together.

However, it is hard. Especially when you are working with someone who basically expects you to be impressed by them...this attitude comes forth from certain people and is the toughest one for me to handle. This sounds very pre-med cheesey, but I try to keep up the learning and reading so that I can impress my patients and take the best care of them I can. Focusing on that and not on the egos of my attendings/residents has been educationally rewarding, and I still manage to get great evals and grades...without having to suck up.

 

[chrisisinnocent]

Having a career is about playing this "phony game". You should be aspiring to be a star until at least a decade post-residency, at which point you will be that star. You are probably not looking at this the right way.

Bull**** there is a difference between being competent/truly knowing the material and kissing ass. Thank god most gunners/ass kissers disappear into the bowels of derm/ophto and certain surgical subspecialties so we never have to interact with them past MS4.

 

[Ypo.]

I was going to say I don't think this type of pimping/striving to be a gunner goes away in residency, but Blade beat me to it. The thing that does (hopefully) improve in residency is that you are doing what you are interested in (at least some of the time ) and are surrounded by people who you get to know over three or more years, as opposed to two months in a rotation that you are not interested in/and or feel miserable doing.

The thing that's really getting me down right now is my school's freaking administration! They are so strict, it's ridiculous.

I volunteer at a spanish-speaking migrant workers clinic, and they won't let me do it at any time during the week, mon-fri, 8-5, EVEN if I have scheduled time off, because (as I was told) "I need to be studying during my afternoons off". What irks me is that they treat us like kids, like I don't know how to manage my time for studying??? It's very frustrating.

In general medical school has felt like high school to me, especially third year. You are given a bunch of meaningless responsibility and assignments (my school is heavy on this), treated like a child, and constantly subjectively evaluated. Then you have the countless well-meaning "career counselors" who rag on the specialty you are interested in going into because they think that will somehow make their specialty more attractive.

 

[paintballdoc]

Dr.Dude,
Don't worry about the other students. Just try to know the material and answer the questions. The evaluation of students is definitely not perfect, but don't be too hard on the process. You are still learning, so keep a positive attitude and try to do your best.

 

[haveaniceday]

I volunteer at a spanish-speaking migrant workers clinic, and they won't let me do it at any time during the week, mon-fri, 8-5, EVEN if I have scheduled time off, because (as I was told) "I need to be studying during my afternoons off". What irks me is that they treat us like kids, like I don't know how to manage my time for studying??? It's very frustrating.

What!? This is ridiculous. Is it a school-run clinic? That is a much more responsible activity than most people do with their time off (myself included). They don't own you, you are an adult. Med school is so infantile, I swear!

 

[Ypo.]

What!? This is ridiculous. Is it a school-run clinic? That is a much more responsible activity than most people do with their time off (myself included). They don't own you, you are an adult. Med school is so infantile, I swear!

It's a clinic that is affiliated with our school; I volunteered there during 1st and 2nd year (during the day, when I'm sure I was suppose to be studying or going to lecture🙄).

I just love it; "no, you can't volunteer and help patients with no insurance who don't speak English because we feel the need to control you and make you feel like a child."

I actually fired back an email response challenging it, but the dragon who runs the administration shot me down. I've seen her shoot down lots of attendings, too. She has a certain way about her, that's for sure.

My strategy is to not ask her for anything again. Silly me; I thought she would be in favor of me volunteering! (i have to get her permission, because they have to arrange malpractice insurance or something, even though I'm essentially doing the same thing I did in 2nd yr).

 

[getunconcsious]

As cynical and jaded as this sounds, unfortunately this statement is absolutely true.

It's not until you're several years into being an attending (and are thus no longer considered a "junior attending") that you can ease up on the politicking. Notice that this never truly goes away, though.

Who wants to be an academic attending anyways? Can't we just skate through MS3 with passes, go to a mid-level unimpressive residency, and then join some not really that well thought of private practice in the midwest? Isn't this sort of mediocrity the american dream?

 

[UndeadHeart]

The thing that's really getting me down right now is my school's freaking administration! They are so strict, it's ridiculous.

I volunteer at a spanish-speaking migrant workers clinic, and they won't let me do it at any time during the week, mon-fri, 8-5, EVEN if I have scheduled time off, because (as I was told) "I need to be studying during my afternoons off". What irks me is that they treat us like kids, like I don't know how to manage my time for studying???

Wow, I had a very similar experience and felt infantalized and worse during medical school, as a pre-med I never would have guess that medical schools actually make it hard on people who want to spend some time delivering healthcare to underserved people, this actually gets turned into a political football where it is more about power over the student i.e. forcing you to do things that don't make sense, than about actually helping anyone. I got the same feeling talking to advisors who I could tell weren't into helping underserved population x, but really just wanted to play a game with me about letting me do something. . . I really wish you had a better medical school. If you study 3 hours each day during rotations you are way ahead of 80% of students out there . . . if you do something you enjoy then it will give meaning to what you are studying. I think I would have saved alot of time in basic sciences if I had a cohesive syllabus which was well written instead of hundreds of poorly xeroxed notes and lecturers who were not efficient in delivering material, probably would have saved enough time to do 3 hours a day in a clinic! It took me a year to figure out that I preceptor I was working with was giving me nasty looks because he didn't like me personally, . . . no matter what I did I felt harassed/looked down on/and sneared at after each session and felt beaten down, . . . my point is that there are alot of bullies and little war lords in medical school that feel the need to declare their power and start messing with other people's heads and schedules in all sorts of weird ways. They usually don't want to negotiate or have a human discussion but just dictate that, "you won't be going to clinic because I want you to study all the time" although this is just another way to beat down students. I would love to know what school you go to as this is just too similar to my experience, may I could offer support/feedback?

 

[Blade28]

Who wants to be an academic attending anyways? Can't we just skate through MS3 with passes, go to a mid-level unimpressive residency, and then join some not really that well thought of private practice in the midwest? Isn't this sort of mediocrity the american dream?

Hey believe me, I've considered going the "community surgeon" route quite often.

 

[blz]

ah wth, i thought the garbage would end once med school is done. i'm hoping the fact that i'm going into a surgical subspecialty (and not pursuing a fellowship so no added need to suck up) that I can limit this nonsense.

 

[Tired]

ah wth, i thought the garbage would end once med school is done. i'm hoping the fact that i'm going into a surgical subspecialty (and not pursuing a fellowship so no added need to suck up) that I can limit this nonsense.

Take it from someone in one of those surgical subspecialty residencies.

No.

 

[brianmartin]

Is it different in academic vs private practice? It seems to me that if you are going the private route, once you are out of residency and join a group, you don't really have any kissing up left to do...you just see patients. Isn't this more of an academic thing?

 

[MSHell]

...Then you have the countless well-meaning "career counselors" who rag on the specialty you are interested in going into because they think that will somehow make their specialty more attractive.

Seriously, knocking the specialties I'm interested in is not the way to attract me to yours. It actually makes me less interested in your specialty and as a bonus, I lose respect for you too.

The people that have have made the best case for their specialties are those that have tried to be as accurate as possible about their specialty, or at least their current situation (pt population, variety, hours, call, pay, location, etc.) without denigrating other specialties.

/rant

(Sorry for the rant. I'm just so sick of this)

 

[Law2Doc]

ah wth, i thought the garbage would end once med school is done. i'm hoping the fact that i'm going into a surgical subspecialty (and not pursuing a fellowship so no added need to suck up) that I can limit this nonsense.

ROFL. Good luck with that.

 

[Law2Doc]

Bull**** there is a difference between being competent/truly knowing the material and kissing ass. Thank god most gunners/ass kissers disappear into the bowels of derm/ophto and certain surgical subspecialties so we never have to interact with them past MS4.

I'm not sure anyone on this thread mentioned kissing ass (the thread was about doing things to impress your superiors), but you tend to see that phrase (along with brownnosing) used most by folks who can't play the game well. These phrases are concepts that successful people drop before long. (You see asskissing/brownnosing mention a ton in pre-allo when folks talk about doing things to get to know profs and get better LORs, yet it was really just playing the game then and is still now). If you want an illustrious career, you always impress your bosses, plain and simple -- this isn't medicine specific, it's any career. This notion goes back to earliest civilization. There are truly competent people in every field who don't get far in life because they don't go that extra mile. Part of making a good impression is a willingness to do scut, to do your homework, to ask good questions, and to let your bosses know you have an interest and a knowledge base. You can't take the attitude that you will answer what is asked but do nothing more and expect others to regard you positively, when everyone else is visibly putting in more effort. Folks who know how to play the game do not disappear into derm, they are in every field, every career, every industry. And they are not gunners -- they aren't doing anything to make you look bad, they are doing things to make themselves look good (There's a huge difference). In this scenario only you (or the OP) are doing (not doing) stuff that makes you look bad.
As the residents have chimed in, these "office politics" don't go away even past med school.

 

[gudog]

Is it different in academic vs private practice? It seems to me that if you are going the private route, once you are out of residency and join a group, you don't really have any kissing up left to do...you just see patients. Isn't this more of an academic thing?

Absolutely.

Once in private practice, you want to be affable, available and competent.

Unless you are in a large group and have bosses that need to be stroked, if you keep your patients happy and are cordial and available to your referral base, then you no longer need to play the suck up game.

 

[Blade28]

Is it different in academic vs private practice? It seems to me that if you are going the private route, once you are out of residency and join a group, you don't really have any kissing up left to do...you just see patients. Isn't this more of an academic thing?

Though I agree with the above post, to a certain extent there's still politicking involved - your partners/senior partners, primary care physicians whom you rely on to send you referrals, etc.

 

[Mayhem]

In general medical school has felt like high school to me, especially third year. You are given a bunch of meaningless responsibility and assignments (my school is heavy on this), treated like a child, and constantly subjectively evaluated. Then you have the countless well-meaning "career counselors" who rag on the specialty you are interested in going into because they think that will somehow make their specialty more attractive.

Can i just say...Amen!

How is it that these people are unable to understand that we can manage our own lives? I mean, one would think that being able to successfully navigate college and meet their very high entrance requirements might signal some sort of maturity, intelligence and responsibility in the student. Yet they insist on treating us like 12 year olds. And if that wasn't enough apparently nobody at my school is allowed to have an original thought. Nothing can be changed here because "This is how things are done by tradition."

My latest issue is with our surgery selective Opthal which is a no-call clinic based rotation that ends at noon each day yet they insist on having classes at 7 pm. Why? Because the clinic attending who has agreed to teach the syllabus is not the teaching attending on the admin files. Never mind that the teaching attenting has also agreed to the change. Admin has let me know that this is how it is traditionally done and cannot be changed. So we continue to see pathology and not discuss it in the morning then drag an old man out his bed at night to discuss pathology and not see it in the evening. Thank you tradition.😡

Sorry for the rant you can have you thread back now.

 

[Law2Doc]

Though I agree with the above post, to a certain extent there's still politicking involved - your partners/senior partners, primary care physicians whom you rely on to send you referrals, etc.

Having worked in a few private practice settings in another career, I have to agree that until you are your own boss, i.e. the most senior managing partner, you still are going to have to make nice to the higher ups. Doesn't matter if the group you are in has 200 people or three -- if you aren't the boss you are going to need to go that extra mile.

 

[Blade28]

Having worked in a few private practice settings in another career, I have to agree that until you are your own boss, i.e. the most senior managing partner, you still are going to have to make nice to the higher ups. Doesn't matter if the group you are in has 200 people or three -- if you aren't the boss you are going to need to go that extra mile.

Amen, brother.

Sadly, that's the profession that we've chosen. Politics and diplomacy are necessary evils in this field.

 

[haveaniceday]

Having worked in a few private practice settings in another career, I have to agree that until you are your own boss, i.e. the most senior managing partner, you still are going to have to make nice to the higher ups. Doesn't matter if the group you are in has 200 people or three -- if you aren't the boss you are going to need to go that extra mile.

Of course, no one disputes this.

I believe the point being made by the OP and others in this thread is that medical school is a special kind of "making nice" hell and so, here we are on a clinical rotations forum venting about it.

EVERY field involves this, even the minimum wage jobs. I might even argue that medicine might require it less so than some fields as there really are tangibles to measure in medicine, in addition to the significant social measures.

Regardless, medical school sucks in a lot of ways and you all know why.

 

[allendo]

Bull**** there is a difference between being competent/truly knowing the material and kissing ass. Thank god most gunners/ass kissers disappear into the bowels of derm/ophto and certain surgical subspecialties so we never have to interact with them past MS4.

Amen to that. I'm not kissing ass to impress! You either know your stuff or you have to kiss ass to make up for it.

 

[Law2Doc]

Amen to that. I'm not kissing ass to impress! You either know your stuff or you have to kiss ass to make up for it.

Please. You can know everything there is to know, but if you don't demonstrate it now and then, roll up your sleeves and do some scut, no one will every know or care. Again, this isn't kissing ass or brown nosing -- those are taunts folks use when they are 12. In the real world, folks who want to get ahead try to impress their bosses.

 

[allendo]

Please. You can know everything there is to know, but if you don't demonstrate it now and then, roll up your sleeves and do some scut, no one will every know or care. Again, this isn't kissing ass or brown nosing -- those are taunts folks use when they are 12. In the real world, folks who want to get ahead try to impress their bosses.

I work hard and do more than I'm supposed to! BUT! I don't try to bring up the fact that I read up on a subject last night and try to ask stupid questions just to seem interested. The simple truth is that you should read on your own and you shouldn't have to be rewarded for doing what you are supposed to do. I respect the doctors, but I'm here to learn not win a popularity contest.

 

[kingcer0x]

Please. You can know everything there is to know, but if you don't demonstrate it now and then, roll up your sleeves and do some scut, no one will every know or care. Again, this isn't kissing ass or brown nosing -- those are taunts folks use when they are 12. In the real world, folks who want to get ahead try to impress their bosses.

So, since you're probably an attending now, do you like perpetuating this ridiculous game? Does it make us better doctors?

You would think that doing your job well would be enough demonstration of ability in the noble profession of clinical medicine. Im sure academia is a different story.

So, where in the midwest should I go? I can have 2 cars and a dog, right? haha

 

[Aliasmmj]

I work hard and do more than I'm supposed to! BUT! I don't try to bring up the fact that I read up on a subject last night and try to ask stupid questions just to seem interested. The simple truth is that you should read on your own and you shouldn't have to be rewarded for doing what you are supposed to do. I respect the doctors, but I'm here to learn not win a popularity contest.

I think as you say here u do ur part and well but u do NOT have to play the phony game if u dnt want to, if u r a good student doing ur duties studying wht u have to and knwing wht u shld no one will cut ur way.. however there are times where u will have to take alot of crap from ur seniors and u jsut have to deal with it if u want to climb up ... tht u have to make peace with from now or u aint going no where my friend .

mai

 

[Acherona]

Maybe the students who are citing the articles are genuinely interested. Personally I can't imagine being motivated enough to read anything that bores me just in case I have a chance to "impress" someone with my erudition. What bothers me more is students who appear to strategize by hogging the work that will be seen by the resident/attending and leaving the scut to the rest of the team. It's just rude.

To the OP, if this rotation doesn't interest you, then screw it, save your energy for something you care about, maybe then you will feel more motivation to be keen.

 

[Law2Doc]

You would think that doing your job well would be enough demonstration of ability in the noble profession of clinical medicine. I'm sure academia is a different story.

While I would be all for the concept of a meritocracy, it doesn't exist. You are a star only if people think of you that way. Doesn't matter if you are the brightest bulb in the bunch, if you don't outshine the rest now and then folks will think you dim. Doesn't matter if we are talking academia or private practice or even a totally different profession like law.

 

[MJB]

Please. You can know everything there is to know, but if you don't demonstrate it now and then, roll up your sleeves and do some scut, no one will every know or care. Again, this isn't kissing ass or brown nosing -- those are taunts folks use when they are 12. In the real world, folks who want to get ahead try to impress their bosses.

I guess I've always impressed higher ups by being competent, and NOT kissing their asses, but by going about my business and doing everything I can to make them look good.

I have very little respect for anyone that expects their ass to be kissed...and the ones that like it the most are usually those that don't even realize they are surrounding themselves with ass kissers.

This thread has been very, very interesting. Sorry, but a lot of what you've described as "necessary" is most certainly ass kissing, and it appears you totally buy into it.

 

[Law2Doc]

I guess I've always impressed higher ups by being competent, and NOT kissing their asses, but by going about my business and doing everything I can to make them look good.

I have very little respect for anyone that expects their ass to be kissed...and the ones that like it the most are usually those that don't even realize they are surrounding themselves with ass kissers.

This thread has been very, very interesting. Sorry, but a lot of what you've described as "necessary" is most certainly ass kissing, and it appears you totally buy into it.

I think we are both talking about the same thing and neither is ass kissing, actually. "Doing everything I can to make them look good" is a huge component of precisely what I am talking about. (I argued in another thread that a med students job was to help the residents, and make them look good, and some of the same folks suggested this was ass-kissing). It's about going that extra mile. You make yourself invaluable. Being competent is great, but being thought of as competent is even better. You do your homework and add to the discussion. You roll up your sleeves and do your share of scut. That's hardly ass-kissing. But I would argue (again) that "ass-kissing" is a phrase most often used by folks who are being left in the dust by those folks who are doing more to make their employers look good. It's the battle cry of the defeated.

Bear in mind that most of the folks who use phrases like ass-kissing and brown nosing are often those who have never held a professional job before. The rat race (which rotations closely resemble) works very differently than school. You sometimes do things like "face time", go that extra mile, to be seen as a star. Sometimes it's a pain, but that's how the system works. A rotation is a 4 -12 week audition, and that is really a relatively short time to wow your superiors. It's often not enough time to show yourself to be competent by just minding your business. Heck, in law, most associates need to work hard for 6 months before anyone can tell if they actually seem to know what they are doing. Med students are expected to demonstrate competency in a fraction of this. You can't sit and wait and hope someone will ask you the right pimp question. You have to be proactive sometimes, even if it's not your nature, because otherwise a few weeks go by, and not shining is the same thing as incompetence when the evals come out.

 

[MJB]

I think we are both talking about the same thing and neither is ass kissing, actually. "Doing everything I can to make them look good" is a huge component of precisely what I am talking about. (I argued in another thread that a med students job was to help the residents, and make them look good, and some of the same folks suggested this was ass-kissing). It's about going that extra mile. You make yourself invaluable. Being competent is great, but being thought of as competent is even better. You do your homework and add to the discussion. You roll up your sleeves and do your share of scut. That's hardly ass-kissing. But I would argue (again) that "ass-kissing" is a phrase most often used by folks who are being left in the dust by those folks who are doing more to make their employers look good. It's the battle cry of the defeated.

Bear in mind that most of the folks who use phrases like ass-kissing and brown nosing are often those who have never held a professional job before. The rat race (which rotations closely resemble) works very differently than school. You sometimes do things like "face time", go that extra mile, to be seen as a star. Sometimes it's a pain, but that's how the system works. A rotation is a 4 -12 week audition, and that is really a relatively short time to wow your superiors. It's often not enough time to show yourself to be competent by just minding your business. Heck, in law, most associates need to work hard for 6 months before anyone can tell if they actually seem to know what they are doing. Med students are expected to demonstrate competency in a fraction of this. You can't sit and wait and hope someone will ask you the right pimp question. You have to be proactive sometimes, even if it's not your nature, because otherwise a few weeks go by, and not shining is the same thing as incompetence when the evals come out.

Well, I was in the real world (the evil Pharma industry) for about 8-9 years before I started this little adventure...and I'll stick by my opinion that kissing ass and making your boss look good are two entirely different things.

The most blatant example I've seen discussed in this thread is those that go home and read something and come up with some BS question to "try" to make themselves look good. I would hope that my superiors when I get into rotations/residency/practice, etc...would be intelligent enough to easily see the difference between that behavior and genuine interest. I know I typically see right through BS ass kissing....and actually find it funny and would certainly never think it appropriate or something one should be commended for...😉

 

[Ypo.]

Maybe the students who are citing the articles are genuinely interested. Personally I can't imagine being motivated enough to read anything that bores me just in case I have a chance to "impress" someone with my erudition. What bothers me more is students who appear to strategize by hogging the work that will be seen by the resident/attending and leaving the scut to the rest of the team. It's just rude.

To the OP, if this rotation doesn't interest you, then screw it, save your energy for something you care about, maybe then you will feel more motivation to be keen.

I don't know. I think that some teams appreciate the chance for some education. Medical students are supposed to have more time for reading.

The key is to not do it to show off, but rather because it is pertinent. You can start off by saying, "i was reading a study in such and such journal on this, and the recommendation is to..." then pause and see if there is any interest. If not, the team can move on.

However I can never remember which journal I read things in and I'm always worried I won't sum things up succinctly or that (worse) I'm saying something that everyone already knows.

 

[DrDude]

Hey it's me the OP. Wow this thread sure got involved more than I thought it would, LOL.

I've come to realize there will always be outright suck ups and closet suck ups who try to spin it as something other than sucking up (I think there's one or two of them posting on this very thread 😉

They can go about looking for ways to impress residents/attendings to be a "star" or whatever. I'll just do what I gotta do and if they don't like it then oh well. I guess it's just not my style to go out of my way to impress people. I suppose I don't care enough or I'm too laid back to bother...or maybe both. Screw it, there's more important things in life than worrying about what some random resident/attending thinks of you when you'll probably never see them again the second your rotation ends.

 

[PeepshowJohnny]

On a related note, I think I've lost that loving feeling. Oh, that loving feeling. Yes, I've lost that loving feeling, and now it's gone, gone gone.

 

[Law2Doc]

Screw it, there's more important things in life than worrying about what some random resident/attending thinks of you when you'll probably never see them again the second your rotation ends.

You'll never see them again, but their evaluation can follow you into the residency application process.

I'm not advocating blatant, out of the blue, "look at me, I know something" actions. I'm saying you need to participate in relevant discussions, ask follow-up questions on things you read related to patients you have seen (actual questions, not forced calculated things), and the like. Be an interested participant in the process, not a wallflower. If you mind your business and wait for them to figure out if you know anything, ask you to do things, or for them to ask the right pimp question, the rotation will end and you will not be well evaluated. It has nothing to do with spin.

You can sit around and call folks suck ups, or you can do what gets you the good evals. I suspect, looking back, you'll have more regrets if you do the former.

 

[MJB]

You'll never see them again, but their evaluation can follow you into the residency application process.

I'm not advocating blatant, out of the blue, "look at me, I know something" actions. I'm saying you need to participate in relevant discussions, ask follow-up questions on things you read related to patients you have seen (actual questions, not forced calculated things), and the like. Be an interested participant in the process, not a wallflower. If you mind your business and wait for them to figure out if you know anything, ask you to do things, or for them to ask the right pimp question, the rotation will end and you will not be well evaluated. It has nothing to do with spin.

You can sit around and call folks suck ups, or you can do what gets you the good evals. I suspect, looking back, you'll have more regrets if you do the former.

I don't think you and I are far apart on our opinions about this stuff...I thought you were advocating all the things you just said you weren't...

By all means, you can't sit idly by...but I'm of the firm belief that you can shine without "sucking up".

 

[Law2Doc]

I don't think you and I are far apart on our opinions about this stuff...I thought you were advocating all the things you just said you weren't...

By all means, you can't sit idly by...but I'm of the firm belief that you can shine without "sucking up".

Yeah, I again think we are probably on the same page.
But the OP is describing a situation neither your or my course of action would ever lead us, where attendings and residents have "given up on him" because of his unwillingness to be proactive. I think that's a huge mistake. He can defend it by saying he doesn't want to be a suck up or whatever, but honestly he has to meet the expectations of his superiors. There is no honor in tanking your evals.

You can (and should) impress folks without being obsequious or blatant or transparent. You do it by reading up on your patients condition and asking intelligent questions based on what you read. Not forced questions, but real ones. (There's no way you can read up on a condition you don't know much about and not have any questions in terms of how what you read relates to the patient). Or the OP should participate in discussions relevant to patients and their care. To wait until you are asked to do stuff simply isn't going to wow anyone, ever. Your job is to anticipate needs, make the residents look good, participate, be an active and engaged part of the team, and thereby make yourself look good.

 

[MacGyver]

Having worked in a few private practice settings in another career, I have to agree that until you are your own boss, i.e. the most senior managing partner, you still are going to have to make nice to the higher ups. Doesn't matter if the group you are in has 200 people or three -- if you aren't the boss you are going to need to go that extra mile.

Dont agree. That BS is only necessary if you aspire to be at that level, i.e. senior partner of the group.

Once you join a group practice you need to be nice and civil, but you DONT need to try and outdo everybody else. Its a totally different situation than med school clinical rotations and residency pimping.

The kind of fakeness thats in med school/residency goes on as long as you want to keep the highest positions of power open to you. As soon as you decide that you have gone as far as you want up the ladder, then you dont have to play those BS games anymore.

Do you have to work hard and be nice to everybody? Of course you do, regardless of position. Do you have to sell your soul and stay up all night to try and one-up everybody else and go out of your way to try and make people think you are the smartest guy in the group? Hell no.

 

[Old_Mil]

But not me. If I get asked a pimp question I answer it. If I get asked to do something I'm more than happy to help out the team. I guess I'm getting tired of what I feel is a big old act to impress, to one-up the other students.

👍

I so feel your pain, man. I'm right there with you.

 

[lord_jeebus]

The day I stopped trying to get Honors was the day I started getting Honors in everything.

I was taking naps, not asking questions on rounds (unless I had a pressing question that would be difficult to look up on my own), not volunteering to do extra work, refusing scut. All of a sudden everyone loved me.

 

[Law2Doc]

The day I stopped trying to get Honors was the day I started getting Honors in everything.

I was taking naps, not asking questions on rounds (unless I had a pressing question that would be difficult to look up on my own), not volunteering to do extra work, refusing scut. All of a sudden everyone loved me.

That approach isn't going to work for most people. But kudos if you can make it work. The OP is describing a situation where he has been "given up on" (not loved) by his residents/attendings, so I don't think he's heading for the same outcome.

 

[lord_jeebus]

That approach isn't going to work for most people. But kudos if you can make it work. The OP is describing a situation where he has been "given up on" (not loved) by his residents/attendings, so I don't think he's heading for the same outcome.

I guess my point was that this might end up better than the OP thinks

I don't feel like I'm getting love from my residents and attendings and every time I get an H I'm shocked. They don't hate me but I'm not getting any special treatment or compliments. My evaluations did become more generic, which is more consistent with my lack of flair, but generic in a "everything was honors quality" sense.

 

[fang]

Hey it's me the OP. Wow this thread sure got involved more than I thought it would, LOL.

I've come to realize there will always be outright suck ups and closet suck ups who try to spin it as something other than sucking up (I think there's one or two of them posting on this very thread 😉

I'm sure you realize this, but there is a middle ground between "sucking up" (ie being highly ambitious about that honors), and not caring a rat's a$$ about what you're doing. It's very possible to come to the wards each day, listen, ask a few relevant questions, and then help out where you can without slavering over every word of the attending all morning and then following the intern around like a hurt puppy all afternoon. The fact that no one is paying much attention to you might mean you've given the impression that you just don't care and have no interest in interacting with the team. Assuming you DO care, just cultivate some genuine interest in some aspect of what's going on and act professionally. You might not get honors but you'll learn something and won't come off as lazy or arrogant.