I've made a decision

[toby jones]

While I am and always will be passionate about philosophy a lifestyle of reading and writing and reading and writing and reading and writing (and teaching) is not the optimal lifestyle for me.

I've decided that once my dissertation is done I'm going to go to medical school. Due to financial constraints... There is one medical school in particular that I've decided to go to and their graduate student entry criteria seems to mean that I'd be an attractive candidate (with a research history in psychiatry). If the graduate student entry criteria doesn't work out for me I have the option of doing a pre-med year where the most important entry criterion seems to be GPA which is totally fine by me.

So... Either way, I'm going to go there and study health sciences. If it doesn't work out for me I'll be a research scientist. Ha. Maybe this is just dissertation avoidance, but really... A life of reading and writing reading and writing really isn't for me. I would actually like... To help people. Or at least... To try.

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[strangeglove]

Congratulations! Good luck on what I'm sure will be an exciting journey with more things than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

 

[watto]

I am particularly happy to hear this, as I have always enjoyed your thoughtful posts on topics discussed here, especially those related to the study of the mind.

Don't think you are leaving philosophy completely behind--I for example am perusing SDN while taking a break from writing a paper on Freud, determinism, and quantum mechanics instead of thinking about Lexapro*.

Go into med school with an open mind - who knows, you could wind up an anaesthesiologist after you discover you can read all the time during surgery.
-W

*which I am contractually obligated to spend the other 99% of my life doing

 

[toby jones]

>I for example am perusing SDN while taking a break from writing a paper on Freud, determinism, and quantum mechanics...

Please don't tell me it has got something to do with free will arising from the indeterminate behavior of calcium ions?!?!?

Thanks guys. Yeah, I pretty much have an open mind about seeing what takes my fancy. The party line is psychiatry, though, firstly because that is what I'm thinking and secondly because they are especially interested in people who are thinking about psychiatry under the 'Other' entry criteria that would be my first shot.

But yeah, who knows. I was rather surprised to find myself getting interested in paralysis when we did the motor unit in cognitive neuroscience and I guess its possible that I'll develop a love of urine or something lol.

 

[nancysinatra]

If you follow the rules of quantum mechanics, couldn't you join all the medical specialties at once and not have to decide on any one that way?

Anyway, congratulations!

 

[billypilgrim37]

If you follow the rules of quantum mechanics, couldn't you join all the medical specialties at once and not have to decide on any one that way?

Dude, one of those cats DIED!

Congrats, Toby!

 

[whopper]

I thought you were already in the medical profession because your prescence here.

passionate about philosophy

To qoute Bruce Lee--a philosophy graduate--he chose that field "so that I can think deep thoughts about unemployment"

 

[toby jones]

> I thought you were already in the medical profession because your prescence here.

Nope. I'm a PhD candidate in philosophy with about one year to finish up my disseration. My AOS (area of specialization) is the Philosophy of Psychiatry. As such... If I kept going with philosophy... It wouldn't be unrealistic to think that I'd end up working in some medical school somewhere teaching bio-ethics. Which I don't really want to do, but fact is that I'd be qualified to do that. Would rather teach something in the 'Ontology of Oncology' (mostly because that sounds cool) but basically 'critical thinking in how we find out about disorder / what the nature of disorder is / the role of facts and values in disorder' etc etc etc type crud.

Sorry... Feeling a bit blah about that. So... Have decided to go to medical school ha.

Maybe... Maybe I wanna be a neurosurgeon

 

[masterofmonkeys]

Heh. You've spelled out the reason that I decided to stop after getting a masters in bioanth, and never pursued philosophy in grad school (interested in philosophy of science and philosophy of medicine..spent a huge chunk of time on it in undergrad and preach about it to any med student/attending who'll listen).

I will say that it's endlessly frustrating to be concerned with areas of study that massively impact this profession, that few even understand the importance of, let alone seek to learn about.

For me, the decision was partly wanting to "you know, help people." But also the realization that whether we're talking about lay people or medical professionals, the letters MD carry a lot more weight than PhD. So if I was to even have something remotely resembling a shot at advancing the level of scientific discourse in medicine (pathetic) or increasing role of evolutionary thought in understanding disease (even less), the PhD would serve no purpose.

PS a Yale faculty member clued me into this group at my interview there:
http://www3.utsouthwestern.edu/aapp/

A couple of pieces I've been working on may find their way to being submitted if I ever bother to finish them up.

 

[toby jones]

> I will say that it's endlessly frustrating to be concerned with areas of study that massively impact this profession, that few even understand the importance of, let alone seek to learn about.

Yeah. The kind of philosophy I do really encourages interdisciplinary interaction. So: If you want to write about philosophy of biology (evolutionary biology, lets say) then it is important that you get your ass to the evolutionary biology seminars and talk to the evolutionary biologists and (if at all possible) establish an interdisciplinary seminar series / reading group / coffee and wine drinking and lunch drinking scenario.

My ability to do this with medicine / clinical psychology is limited because it is fairly 'close ranks' because of all the cranks who show an interest. In order to learn the relevant medicine I actually need to study the relevant medicine and the best way for me to study the relevant medicine (the only way for me to formally study the relevant medicine) is to go to medical school. I don't want to be one of those philosophers who tries to prescribe things to medical sciences completely in disregard or contractiction to the way things are done (the practical constraints) as a matter of fact. The best way for me to do good work in philosophy of medicine is to do both.

I'm aware of the organization you linked to. Most of my work on delusions was done around the time that there were special editions on delusions in PPP. One thing to note about submissions to the journal: They have a fairly fussy criterion on the kind of papers they will accept and they reccomend clearing a topic with the editors BEFORE writing on it. I have some work on delusions that I wanted to send to there but unfortunately my editorial contact moved on and I was dismayed to find (in print) more articles on the topic 6 months down the track that my work would need to incorporate before being publishable on the topic (assuming the editors are still interested in responses to past PPP editions rather than just responses to past PPP editions that were 'commissioned' at the time).

> A couple of pieces I've been working on may find their way to being submitted if I ever bother to finish them up.

Ditto. Lol.

By the way (in case you aren't aware of it) there is also a series in the Philosophy of Psychiatry that is being put out by OUP. One might stand a good chance of getting something like a dissertation turned into a book as part of the series... Perhaps...

 

[Hinglish]

congrats.


I got my degree in English ed. I hated teaching and thus, now I've decided to go to med school. I agree with you about all the reading and writing and reading and writing haha.

 

[toby jones]

Lol. I started out training as a Secondary School teacher in English Lit (which enabled me to double major in English and Philosophy) then discovered a love of philospohy of mind (so dropped English and picked up Psychology) then discovered a love of philosophy of psychology / psychopathology / psychiatry. Whether it is working in a lab or practicing as a clinician I really do think it is time for a change, yeah. I don't mind teaching so much (depending on what I'm teaching) but still... I get the feeling I can do more...

Good luck with your application.

 

[cleareyedguy]

There is one medical school in particular that I've decided to go to and their graduate student entry criteria seems to mean that I'd be an attractive candidate (with a research history in psychiatry). If the graduate student entry criteria doesn't work out for me I have the option of doing a pre-med year where the most important entry criterion seems to be GPA which is totally fine by me.

No student should target only one med school. As far as I'm concerned, people should apply to the places that are geographically appropriate (especially in-state schools) and then any places where you might find a research mentor (which is where targeting makes sense). From an admissions point of view, that mentor needs to weigh in for you, however, since that would separate you from the crowd (or you can demonstrate that you know something about their program--knowing about the program may be the best way to demonstrate that you are motivated and thorough, by the way, no matter what you're applying for). While you might know of one place that is particularly appealing to you now, many/most med schools contain people who have a strong interest in philosophy and many/most would like to have a few people like you around to provide some diversity to their med school class.

Admissions committees will worry whether you can hack hard science classes in the year 2010 or 2011, which is why they may want to see some recent science grades. Most grad student applicants will have focused on science, and so they'd get different scrutiny (for them, it'd revolve around their motivation for changing their career, and so their interviewers will wonder whether they are mercenary or can't do real science at a high level or didn't get into med school the first time around; for you, they'll worry that you're a flake or a dilettante or going to falter and quit when told to draw blood at 2 am since all you really wanted to do was smoke a pipe and do psychotherapy in a book-lined office). In other words, admissions committees WANT stars but they're HUNGRY for low-risk applicants. Your job is to show all of your good stuff while addressing their anticipated concerns.

Oh, and good luck!

 

[OldPsychDoc]

No student should target only one med school. As far as I'm concerned, people should apply to the places that are geographically appropriate (especially in-state schools) and then any places where you might find a research mentor (which is where targeting makes sense). From an admissions point of view, that mentor needs to weigh in for you, however, since that would separate you from the crowd (or you can demonstrate that you know something about their program--knowing about the program may be the best way to demonstrate that you are motivated and thorough, by the way, no matter what you're applying for). While you might know of one place that is particularly appealing to you now, many/most med schools contain people who have a strong interest in philosophy and many/most would like to have a few people like you around to provide some diversity to their med school class.

Admissions committees will worry whether you can hack hard science classes in the year 2010 or 2011, which is why they may want to see some recent science grades. Most grad student applicants will have focused on science, and so they'd get different scrutiny (for them, it'd revolve around their motivation for changing their career, and so their interviewers will wonder whether they are mercenary or can't do real science at a high level or didn't get into med school the first time around; for you, they'll worry that you're a flake or a dilettante or going to falter and quit when told to draw blood at 2 am since all you really wanted to do was smoke a pipe and do psychotherapy in a book-lined office). In other words, admissions committees WANT stars but they're HUNGRY for low-risk applicants. Your job is to show all of your good stuff while addressing their anticipated concerns.

Oh, and good luck!

It was in another thread, but Toby is in New Zealand, so the usual conventional wisdoms don't apply so much...

 

[cleareyedguy]

It was in another thread, but Toby is in New Zealand, so the usual conventional wisdoms don't apply so much...

oh... then forget all that earlier stuff.

 

[toby jones]

Yeah, there are only 2 med schools in the country and 1) The cost of living in Auckland is too high and 2) Auckland requires a GAMSAT score.

> they'll worry that you're a flake or a dilettante or going to falter and quit when told to draw blood at 2 am since all you really wanted to do was smoke a pipe and do psychotherapy in a book-lined office.

Yeah lol. Fortunately I've done well in psychology courses including some (relatively) 'hard science' neurophysiology courses. Have also audited a graduate level cognitive neuroscience course in the US. Was unable to take it for credit because there wasn't place for coursework in my PhD structure - but I suppose those people are contactable. That is what got me interested in doing medicine, actually, really loved learning about the neurobiology of the motor system in particular. Felt disappointed I didn't get to do the month long neuroanatomy intensive... Fairly sure I want to do something with the nervous system whether it be psychiatry or neurology or neurosurgery...

Thanks.

 

[notdeadyet]

Yeah, there are only 2 med schools in the country

Wow, that seems like very few med schools for what, 4-5 million people? Are the medical schools extremely large?

And out of curiosity, at physician conferences in the U.S., you always see heavy recruiting for New Zealand. Is the issue that there are too few new doctors being produced at the two medical schools, or is there a problem with young NZ doctors emigrating?

 

[toby jones]

Wiki says population about 4 million. I don't know how large medical schools typically are... But Wiki says one of them offers 150 (200 in 2008) places per year and I remember reading somewhere that the other was a little bigger. So... Maybe 400 now (I know the government was saying they both needed to up the intake). 6 year program... Not sure if that is 'big' in the grand scheme of things??

> Is the issue that there are too few new doctors being produced at the two medical schools, or is there a problem with young NZ doctors emigrating?

I read somewhere that 40% of junior doctors in NZ move to Australia. I don't know how many fail to complete the program.

Found this. Obviously targeting a UK audience but not bad:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4UHENklUKs

 

[toby jones]

Junior doctors strike:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10505469

This has been going on for years now...