IVF question

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fahimaz7

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So last night I used a 5% dextrose 1/2NS bolus in a patient with presumed starvation ketoacidosis (1st liter was NS). This went in over a little over an hour. 30 minutes later she had >500 glucose in her urine, + ketones, and a POC glucose of 350. Prior to this she had a normal CMP with a glucose of 140 and bicarb of 18 with a GAP of 12.

Have any of you seen a 1L bag of D5 saline actually bump the glucose levels like that? This was a finger stick and later confirmed with a IV draw shortly thereafter. 30 minutes later a POC glucose was 140 again.

I'd like to say it was a factitious finding (ie the CMP was drawn from an IV that had the D5 going through it earlier), but I can't explain the finger stick glucose...

Thanks!

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It's 50 grams of dextrose over an hour. We would expect an amp of D50 (25g) to raise glucose 100mg/dL, two amps (50g) to raise it 200 mg/dL...almost exactly what you saw. Granted that number is when D50 is being bolused. I wonder if the lack of insulin in the setting of SKA, and inherent gluconeogenesis and glycolysis caused the transient spike prior to secretion of insulin and bringing the level down.
 
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The only paper I can find is this one: Crystalloid Choice in Elective Adult Surgery : Anaesthesia and Intensive Care Journal

We conducted a randomized controlled trial in 50 non-diabetic adult patients undergoing elective surgery which did not involve entry into major body cavities, large fluid shifts, or require administration of >500 ml of intravenous fluid in the first two hours of peri-operative care. Patients received 500 ml of either 5% dextrose in 0.9% normal saline, lactated Ringer’s solution, or 0.9% normal saline over 45 to 60 minutes. Plasma glucose, electrolytes and osmolarity were measured prior to infusion, and at 15 minutes and one hour after completion of infusion.

None of the patients had preoperative hypoglycaemia despite average fasting times of almost 13 hours. Patients receiving lactated Ringer’s and normal saline remained normoglycaemic throughout the study period. Patients receiving dextrose saline had significantly elevated plasma glucose 15 minutes after completion of infusion (11.1 (9.9-12.2, 95% CI) mmol/l). Plasma glucose exceeded 10 mmol/l in 72% of patients receiving dextrose saline. There was no significant difference in plasma glucose between the groups at one hour after infusion, but 33% of patients receiving DS had plasma glucose ≥8 mmol/l.

11.1mmol/L glucose = 200mg/dL

Interesting stuff to say the least. Makes me re-evaluate using D5 solutions outside of MIVF rates (meaning might not use it in the ED).
 
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D5 is a maintnance fluid, not a bolus fluid. As astutely pointed out above, 1L of D5 is the same as giving 2 amps of D50.

For starvation ketosis, like bad hyperemesis or alcoholic ketoacidosis, I bolus first with crystalloid replacement to replace volume (saline or lr) followed by maintnance fluid with d5 once the patient is fluid repleted.
 
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I give a couple liters of ns or lr followed by a bonus of d5 1/2 ns in hyperemesis pt. Most feel better after the glucose. I don't check a repeat glucose.

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I just give large quantities of NS in starvation and alcohol ketoacidosis. I’ve never had to give IV glucose for it. Always had the anion gap close and never encountered an issue. These patients are massively dehydrated, not starved of glucose.
 
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I just give large quantities of NS in starvation and alcohol ketoacidosis. I’ve never had to give IV glucose for it. Always had the anion gap close and never encountered an issue. These patients are massively dehydrated, not starved of glucose.
Agreed. I usually give 2-3 L NS or LR and get them a sandwich then recheck a bmp and d/c.
 
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I was always told, in regards to ressuscitation, NS was the devil and LR is always better because patients won't routinely become hyperkalemic from LR but will become hypernatremic from NS. Maybe just dogma.
 
D5 is a maintnance fluid, not a bolus fluid. As astutely pointed out above, 1L of D5 is the same as giving 2 amps of D50.

For starvation ketosis, like bad hyperemesis or alcoholic ketoacidosis, I bolus first with crystalloid replacement to replace volume (saline or lr) followed by maintnance fluid with d5 once the patient is fluid repleted.

At what maintenance rate? It would take 5 hours at 200/hr...
 
A liter or two? No. Fluid resuscitation of the critically ill patient - yes, it does matter.
Maybe I'm jaded (or dumb) but I don't consider starvation ketosis or hyperemesis patients to be critically ill. I routinely bolus d5/ns* to these pts and they routinely feel better. I also hav never thought to check a fingerstick after ( and doubt that transient hyperglycemia in a pt w/ working islet cells matters)

*i choose ns in the vomiying pt to replace some of the cl lost in the emesis and correct the resulting alkalosis--if they had diarrhea or or I had a chem panel back already w/ a low bicarbonate would choose LR
 
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Finally a real windmill to tilt at. Yes, you should expect the dextrose to raise their sugar pretty quickly, but it's irrelevant. You want to provide more than they need unless it's a super long starvation such as neglect.

First, if they're starving, they're starving for nutrition, not salt. Yes, they're dehydrated, but they're also ketotic which can cause nausea. That's why WHO fluid and pedialyte both contain sugar. You don't metabolize sodium or chloride.

As far as giving dextrose containing fluids in bolus being dangerous? Laughable. People argue until they're blue in the face that bolusing that fluid as too hyperosmolar will harm vessels, and then turn around and give d50. It's a hyperosmotic solution with an osmolarity of approximately 2,525 mOsm/L and a pH between 3.5 and 6.5.
The NHS does have a contraindication for hypertonic/hypotonic solutions but it specifically points towards hypotonic sodium content, and in general hasn't applied to dextrose containing fluids. The NHS has made policy against hyponatremia, and while it specifically forbids (and removed) .18% NS, they do recommend in the case of fluid loss to "estimate any fluid deficit and replace as sodium chloride 0.9% with glucose 5% (isotonic solution) or sodium chloride 0.9% over a minimum of 24 hours." The NHS isn't being cavalier in their efforts.
This is the important bit. We aren't resuscitating using D5whatever, we are correcting deficits. Always resuscitate with NS or LR. You're not fixing their hypotension using it. You're hydrating them. You can bolus hydrate, there's no "rule" against it.

If you look at a recent actual study, you can see that there was a difference between pediatric gastroenteritis (ie starvation ketosis) groups that received dextrose vs the one getting only crystalloid. 9% more were admitted in the non-dextrose group. And furthermore, 3 times as many in the d5NS group (15 vs 5) were admitted based on family request, which would have doubled the difference between groups and likely showed statistical differences. They did this study because of a retrospective analysis showing a benefit to giving IV dextrose.
And then, they point out that "Twenty-six children were hypoglycemic (glucose 60 mg/dL) before receiving the study fluid. None of the children who received a 5% dextrose in normal saline solution bolus were hypoglycemic 1 hour after initiation of the study fluid bolus, whereas all of the children in the normal saline solution group remained hypoglycemic at 1 hour, with an additional 12 children becoming hypoglycemic in this treatment arm." Because the physicians weren't sadists, the hypoglycemic children of course received IV dextrose, potentially skewing the results even more. Both groups received some, with the d5 arm getting an average of 1g/kg more during the duration.
More importantly they found "Among dehydrated children requiring intravenous rehydration, administration of a dextrose-containing fluid bolus appears to be safe and led to a greater reduction in serum ketone levels compared with a bolus of normal saline solution" and also "In the subset of patients who were acidotic and discharged, 30% of patients in the normal saline solution group required unscheduled medical care compared with only 11% in the 5% dextrose in normal saline solution group. Although this planned analysis was not subject to hypothesis testing and may have been due to chance alone, our findings may have clinical relevance and warrant further study."

Futhermore, in the first article "The investigators conclude that rapid IV therapy is effective, and that inclusion of dextrose in the treatment fluid may prevent occurrence of hypoglycemia without harmful effects...The results are more mixed with regard to avoidance of hospitalization or relapse. Overall, nearly 20% of subjects in those studies conducted in an ED setting either required hospital admission after treatment or returned for unscheduled care. The one study that reported a high rate of treatment failure (in the form of hospital admission or return for further treatment) had the smallest total volume of fluid administered by the treatment regimen: the “rapid IV hydration” consisted of the administration of 20-30 ml/kg over 1-2 hours, followed by 1-3 ounces of clear fluid. For most patients with mild-moderate dehydration, where the deficit is likely to be 5-10% of body weight, this would not constitute total deficit replacement. Excluding this study, the rate of admission or relapse is 10.1% (95% CI: 5.1%, 17.3%). It is a commonly accepted belief in clinical practice that patients who require more than 2 initial boluses of fluid in the ED require hospital admission.25 These studies, taken as whole, would suggest that patients can be given large volumes of fluid, in excess of 40-50 ml/kg, and still be safely and successfully discharged."
And finally, while not exactly pertinent for AGE in peds, this blog post from the guys at Kings County/SUNY Downstate discuss dextrose containing fluids in hyperemesis, another ketotic state.

Some argue for NS because of higher chloride content in a relatively chloride depleted state, but again you're fighting metabolic acidosis with an acidotic fluid.

Always remember, the worst reason for doing anything is "because we've always done it that way"
 
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Why give d5 1/2ns instead of d5ns

Why give NS instead of LR
Why not give D5LR (other than that your ER probably doesn't have it available because you would be the first person to ever ask for it)
 
I would give d5 plasmalyte if the pharmacy would make it
 
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Depending on the state of starvation/duration, dextrose by itself, if not administer with MV/thiamine solution, can place the pt in a iatrogenic wernicke’s encephalopathy until thiamine is given - not common, but have seen it in the 4 ppl over the last few years
 
Depending on the state of starvation/duration, dextrose by itself, if not administer with MV/thiamine solution, can place the pt in a iatrogenic wernicke’s encephalopathy until thiamine is given - not common, but have seen it in the 4 ppl over the last few years

You've seen Wernicke's or you've seen iatrogenic Wernicke's four times in a few years?
 
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Depending on the state of starvation/duration, dextrose by itself, if not administer with MV/thiamine solution, can place the pt in a iatrogenic wernicke’s encephalopathy until thiamine is given - not common, but have seen it in the 4 ppl over the last few years

i call bull****
 
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Why not give D5LR (other than that your ER probably doesn't have it available because you would be the first person to ever ask for it)

I would give d5 plasmalyte if the pharmacy would make it

I ordered d5LR+20kcl once. Prompted a pharmacy call about their concern because they'd never seen it done in however many years and they questioned adding kcl to LR. Eventually had it made, but never ordering it again, not worth dealing with the ****
 
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