ivy league

[ipsychologist]

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After graduating at Argosy University's with a bachelors of psychology (GPA is 3.6), is it possible to be accepted into an ivy league university, let's say....Harvard?
I have also taught English for 8 years (includes instructing criminal psychology classes for the Tokyo police department and 2 years and teaching ESL at a community college) prior to receiving the bachelors. Would this be considered as "college work" even if I did this before graduating? 3 years of college work was one of the requirements to be accepted into Harvard med school, but they describe it as it attracts traditional students.
Can "uniqueness" in such educational instruction be considered an asset in being accepted into an ivy league med school or another university?

Any information would be highly appreciated.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Grad programs are much different than undergrads in regard to 'name' schools. Some still apply (ie. Stanford), but Harvard doesn't have a clinical program (I think they have an Experimental Psych doc that is hardcore research). Many top clinical programs are at state uni's, and not private institutions, which makes sense considering the large research grants and whatnot that support the programs.

As for med schools.....good luck. They may accept a much higher % than clinical programs, they seem to be very grade focused, and I don't think a 3.6 at Argosy would make the cut considering the average acceptance stats at a top program. Clinical programs have other very important components like research experience, though grades still matter. I don't think a 3.6 will get you excluded, but you will need a solid application across the board to land at a top program, there are far too many qualified applicants.

-t

 

[ipsychologist]

Thank you for your information. Very helpful 😳!
Besides working on a masters, would there be anything that would be an asset to my application to a state university?

 

[Ollie123]

-T4C makes an important point. Also of note, I believe there are only three ivies that even HAVE an accredited clinical program, Penn, Columbia and Yale. I'm not positive of that though, so don't quote me on it.

Next, a 3.6 puts you a bit behind the curve in terms of GPA (for the highest-tier programs anyways), but still in okay shape overall. Don't bank on your teaching English, etc. being much of a help in getting in though. It WILL help, sure, but you need to stand out as a psychology student first. THEN the 8 years of teaching English can help differentiate you from the other people who stood out as psychology students🙂

Have you done research? Published anything? If you're more interested in PsyDs, any clinical experience? Having done research is pretty much a pre-requisite to get looked at for ANY school, let alone one of the top programs. Even if you had a 4.0 I think its safe to say you have zero chance of even getting an interview at Penn or Yale with no research experience (Can't comment on Columbia since I know nothing about it). Its best if you have something to show for it, but a good letter of recommendation from the prof sometimes says more than a publication.

 

[GiantSteps]

ipsychologist,

T4C and Ollie123 basically gave you a standard safe answer to your original question and they certainly know what they are talking about (accept for the fact that Harvard does have a clinical psychology program - it is just not yet APA accredited - that has even been dealt with in its own SDN thread). However, there are always exceptions to general rules. I know many people with the strangest, non-impressive, undergraduate credentials who went on to stellar graduate programs. Of course, these people usually shine in other areas such as test scores, work, research (as T4C and Ollie123 told you, this is most important for the most famous psychology programs since one is not usually applying to the general school but to work with a specific faculty member - that professor is everything), or unusual experiences. Perhaps a better source for answers to your question would be Argosy itself. I am sure the Alumni office or placement center would love to share information on its most successful graduates and where they went on to school. For example, I see adds all of the time for a certain community college which spotlights its graduate success stories. So while T4C and Ollie are correct in general, I do not think you should simply give up without finding out more information or investigating what you might be able to do to improve your credentials.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

ipsychologist,

T4C and Ollie123 basically gave you a standard safe answer to your original question and they certainly know what they are talking about (accept for the fact that Harvard does have a clinical psychology program - it is just not yet APA accredited - that has even been dealt with in its own SDN thread).

HERE is the thread GiantSteps is talking about.

-t

 

[psychanon]

OK. I'm going to be the brutally honest one here. I'm really, really sorry, but I think your chances are close to nil. I've known people who have gotten into the clinical programs at Yale and other ivy leagues, and they generally have done their undergraduate at other ivy leagues (this obviously isn't a hard and fast rule, but it happens to be true for the people I know), maintained a 3.9 GPA, gotten near perfect on their GREs, and taken at least a year of post-BA research assistant jobs to work with very well-known researchers. And, of course, they were perfect research matches for the faculty. Yale et al. receive hundreds of applications from the top students in the world, so they can afford to be picky and only take the very best for their incoming class (which, by the way, is usually around 1-5 people). I honestly don't think that someone who has gotten an online degree at Argosy has a chance, no matter what the GPA. I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but I really think that it's better to be honest than to be nice. But that said, why do you want to go to Harvard or another ivy? Are you a good research match for the faculty? Like others have said, Harvard's program is not very good, nor is Columbia's, and Princeton, Dartmouth, Cornell, and Brown don't even have programs. Only Penn and Yale have reputable programs, but they're totally focused on research, clinical training is minimal. You shouldn't think in terms of undergraduate reputations when you choose grad schools-- many of the top programs are located at public universities with mediocre undergraduate reputations.

 

[GiantSteps]

Just so all of you know, I have never attended (I do not know if that is the right word for on-line participation in a school) Argosy, never plan to, and do not even know anyone who has a participated in the school at any of its locations.

I went to the Argosy website and they have a whole list a success stories 🙂: http://www.argosy.edu/news-events/success-stories.aspx?&Page=0

Many are psychology related!

I have not found any yet who have gone to an Ivy league school and most seem to involve their graduate students who may have gone elsewhere for undergraduate. Many of the stories involve the Argosy psychology graduate students. A few that stick in my mind are the one who is on faculy at the University of Rochester and one who is an Airforce psychologist! There is even a guy in business who is a Fulbright Scholar at Argosy in Chicago! The list goes on and on!

Clearly, Argosy alumni are taking over the world, putting those of us with Ivy League/ prestigious school degrees to shame, and making everyone with bad things to say about the school eat their words! Before we know it, Argosy will hold the number one ranking in U.S. News & World Reports college/ university rankings (8/2007 Princeton #1 - Please!).

I think the real question is not if ipsychologist can get into Harvard or Yale but can a Harvard or Yale graduate with a 4.0, 1600 GRE's, RA experience, and multiple publications can get into Argosy?

 

[ipsychologist]

Delayed cause of time differences.
Thank you all for your constructive thoughts. 🙂

Just so all of you know, I have never attended (I do not know if that is the right word for on-line participation in a school) Argosy, never plan to, and do not even know anyone who has a participated in the school at any of its locations.

I went to the Argosy website and they have a whole list a success stories 🙂: http://www.argosy.edu/news-events/success-stories.aspx?&Page=0

Many are psychology related!

I have not found any yet who have gone to an Ivy league school and most seem to involve their graduate students who may have gone elsewhere for undergraduate. Many of the stories involve the Argosy psychology graduate students. A few that stick in my mind are the one who is on faculy at the University of Rochester and one who is an Airforce psychologist! There is even a guy in business who is a Fulbright Scholar at Argosy in Chicago! The list goes on and on!

Clearly, Argosy alumni are taking over the world, putting those of us with Ivy League/ prestigious school degrees to shame, and making everyone with bad things to say about the school eat their words! Before we know it, Argosy will hold the number one ranking in U.S. News & World Reports college/ university rankings (8/2007 Princeton #1 - Please!).

is this sarcasm? 😕

I think the real question is not if ipsychologist can get into Harvard or Yale but can a Harvard or Yale graduate with a 4.0, 1600 GRE's, RA experience, and multiple publications can get into Argosy?

OK. I'm going to be the brutally honest one here. I'm really, really sorry, but .... many of the top programs are located at public universities with mediocre undergraduate reputations.

I think your honesty is constructive. Perhaps looking towards ivy university would not benefit anyone except for the name. I dont think that would be helpful for something that i would like to do. You make a good point.

-T4C makes an important point. Also of note...........
Have you done research? Published anything? .....Its best if you have something to show for it, but a good letter of recommendation from the prof sometimes says more than a publication.

So having just a professor's recommendation is better than proven facts? I guess thats the way life is.
Have done research in criminal psychology while teaching the Tokyo police officers. They have "0" education in this! what a shock it was to know that. I contacted Mr. O'Conner to use his content for the students. While instructing such classes, we learned a lot about the suspects that they arrested, profiled some of their suspects, etc. It was quite fun and educational for all of us.
In the end, the foreign crime rate in Tokyo decreased by 14% (a first decrease in 2 decades).
http://faculty.ncwc.edu/TOCONNOR/psy/
Here are the statistics for the crime in Tokyo. I started in 2003. If you see on page 98 on the 3 pdfs, you can see the decrease.
Tokyo foreign Crime rate of 2003
Tokyo foreign Crime rate of 2004
Tokyo foreign Crime rate of 2005
Statistics for 2006 have yet to be uploaded (sorry in Japanese). But take a look at the number at the top left on page 98 on all pdfs, thats the number of crimes comitted by foreigners. The characters to the left are the country of where the criminal is from.

As for Americans:
2003 - 103
2004 - 111
2005 - 75

For Chinese:
2003 - 4,536
2004 - 4,531
2005 - 4,142

But from what some admissions officers told me is that they would not accept such research (if this is some reseach). But could "unusual experiences" like this help people get into the "top pick" of universities? A professor recommending someone just seems unrealistic. So students should either work really hard or "kiss butt" to get great recommendations?

 

[Ollie123]

I'm a bit confused by your post...why is a professor recommending someone unrealistic, exactly? Networking is kind of a way of life for being successful in every field, I'm not sure why psych would be any different. LoRs are one of (if not THE) most important aspect of a graduate school application. So no, I don't think its unrealistic in the slightest.

I also have no idea where the "Professors recommendation is better than proven facts" statement came from. I think you're thinking about this in entirely the wrong way. There isn't a formula for getting into graduate school, and publishing is one more thing on your CV it isn't "proof" of anything other than the fact that you wrote a paper worth publishing. If you came up with a cure for schizophrenia and published it in NEJM, than that would be better than just about any LoR. If Aaron Beck wrote a letter describing how you single-handedly saved his entire lab and are the greatest thing since sliced bread, that would probably trump most publications.

I'm going to be very blunt now, so please don't take this the wrong way, but I think it needs to be said.

You have a mediocre GPA from what would be considered (at best) a mediocre school by the standards of the programs you seem focused on. You have experiences that seem unique and wonderful, but didn't exactly scream WOW. Don't get me wrong, I don't mean to diminish the work you've done, I think its great. From what I can tell, it looks like you made a big difference for the safety of Tokyo residents. I think you will be a competitive applicant. I just want to be very, very clear that the unique experience doesn't necessarily make up for what sounds like an otherwise mediocre application. Given those top-pick universities accept maybe 5 people a year, there are too many people with equivalent (albeit different) experiences from you that ALSO have a 4.0, a 1500 GRE, published research and great LoRs from Dr. Yale's best friend over at Harvard.

I feel like I'm being overly harsh, and I really don't want to rain on your parade, I just want you to be realistic. You've done some great and impressive things with your life, but I think you're just setting yourself up for disappointment if you think the best programs would welcome you with open arms. By all means, throw an application out there. I applied to a few reach schools and didn't get interviews, but I still don't regret applying. As hard as it can be, just try and remain realistic about things and come to terms with the fact that you aren't the "ideal" graduate school candidate by a long shot, and you may need to apply to some more mid-range programs in order to get accepted.

 

[ipsychologist]

......I feel like I'm being overly harsh.....

no, no! It's all good information to work from 🙂 It can sometimes be tough to know where one fits into a certain demand from unis. Of course they search for the best and I know that I am not the best or even close to average (have yet to find the cure for yawning😉 ). How many applications did all of you send out to your choice of universities? So if one thinks that they are not that "good", they would have to send out hundreds of applications. If you were the person to "find a cure for schizophrenia", then you would only need to send a few to the best.
I dont think that i would EVER be accepted at an ivy school. not in my blood. But as you said, it wouldnt hurt to throw one out there just to see if "if" existed.

i wonder if its much easier to get the degree than to be accepted. 🙁

i will always appreciate your feedback, so please dont hesitate 😀

Thank you!

 

[positivepsych]

I agree. I know people who are there, and your chances are slim to none.

Don't be a prestige *****, find a place that's a good fit for your interests and needs.

 

[Ollie123]

i wonder if its much easier to get the degree than to be accepted. 🙁

Good news here. Attrition rates are very low in the selective programs and from what I can see are more often by choice and not people failing out. Once you're in, it seems schools are usually willing to work with you. Sometimes it takes an extra year or two to graduate, but I think getting kicked out of programs is pretty rare (at least at the places I was looking at).

 

[amy203]

Before you do anything else, I think you really just need to learn more about the degree. Most people are pretty surprised by what a PhD/PsyD actually entail and the type of careers they prepare you for. And, of course, you need to be aware of just how competitive these programs are.

Get The Insider's Guide to Clinical and Counseling Psychology. That should answer most of your questions. This is also a pretty good place to start: http://www.ncsu.edu/stud_orgs/frat_sor/psi_chi/gradschool/index.html

T4C - Any chance we could get a sticky up with this info? It would prevent certain questions from being asked over and over (no offense ipsychologist! - I remember being in your shoes!)

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

T4C - Any chance we could get a sticky up with this info? It would prevent certain questions from being asked over and over (no offense ipsychologist! - I remember being in your shoes!)

That's a great idea. I'll start a thread with general information about applying, and I'd ask that people contribute.

-t

 

[ipsychologist]

All good suggestions. I thought that this quesiton HAD to have been asked, but couldnt find it. Perhaps making an FAQ would be good as well that all of you (and some of us who know the answer to) could contribute to? I know you all have more important things to ask and reply to, but it is a question that some of us have.

Thank you all, really, thank you 😀

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

All good suggestions. I thought that this quesiton HAD to have been asked, but couldnt find it. Perhaps making an FAQ would be good as well that all of you (and some of us who know the answer to) could contribute to? I know you all have more important things to ask and reply to, but it is a question that some of us have.

Thank you all, really, thank you 😀

No worries about asking questions, if you have one, I'm guessing many other posters (and lurkers) probably have it too.

Welcome to the forum, and I hope you continue to contribute.

Btw....HERE is the thread I started to address common Q&As.

-t